Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:27:24
Geert Kloppenburg
Here. People said that cycling in Amsterdam was safe, but now it's like going on the street. Being there for. Look at the time. 1103 look at 1113. This is what happens if you put in so many delivery vans and you're surprised at the amount of accidents. And I get really annoyed if people say, yeah, Amsterdam is such a Walhalla and have a look at what kind of situation people have to, go to.

00:00:27:24 - 00:00:54:12
Geert Kloppenburg
It's interesting that actually foreigners talk to us saying, yeah, cycling in Amsterdam is really nice, but you guys are idiots and don't wear helmets and it's too dangerous. And I think we shouldn't wear helmets, but we should change this situation, which is ridiculous. That is the real story because there are so many cyclists now there that if a car wants to turn right.

00:00:54:18 - 00:01:16:00
Geert Kloppenburg
He has to wait for ten minutes and you understand what's happening. That also a Dutch bad car driver gets annoyed or a lot of the driver and he pushes. That's what you see here. You see normal human behavior because it takes too long. So it's not the behavioral point of view of the delivery van. He that guy has been waiting there and says enough is enough.

00:01:16:00 - 00:01:26:10
Geert Kloppenburg
I'm going now. So this is all design, design, design. But it's not in our reports. It's not in our data.

00:01:26:12 - 00:01:51:27
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmermann and that is Geert Kloppenburg from the Netherlands. We're going to be talking about his YouTube channel and some of the other video content that he produces. And puts out on LinkedIn, primarily. And really, his story is quite unique in the sense that he's coming to this world of active transportation, street safety, from outside of this profession.

00:01:51:27 - 00:02:05:15
John Simmerman
And, it's a it's a really cool story. So I want to be sure to share that with you. Hey, it's a long one, but it's a good one, so let's get right to it with Geert.

00:02:05:18 - 00:02:09:28
John Simmerman
Geert, Thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast. How are you doing today?

00:02:10:00 - 00:02:14:15
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah. Very good. Glad to be with you and looking forward.

00:02:14:17 - 00:02:21:25
John Simmerman
And you're a Dutchman, but you are not currently in the Netherlands. Where the heck are you?

00:02:21:27 - 00:02:34:21
Geert Kloppenburg
At this moment, I'm in Barcelona. At the smart city, Congress. So. Yeah, I travel a lot, looking for good examples from all over the world, actually. Yeah.

00:02:34:24 - 00:02:50:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. That's good. Great stuff. Well, I am going to put you on the spot and have you do just a 32nd, introduction as to who the heck you are. So I, you know, I'll turn the floor over. Yeah. I'm going to turn the floor over to you. There you go. Who the heck is Geert?

00:02:50:05 - 00:03:18:14
Geert Kloppenburg
Hi, everybody. Yeah, who am I? And what do I do? I try to find examples, of how we can improve the mobility in cities and for the people that actually live there. I've got four kids. I live in the Netherlands, but I've got an entrepreneurial background. I used to have a taxi company. I was responsible for the whole introduction of electric vehicles within the Netherlands.

00:03:18:17 - 00:03:50:11
Geert Kloppenburg
I help the Ministry of Transport thought, on their, strategy and innovation policy, reports. And I do that for Istanbul, Paris, London? Yeah, for many different cities. But, and some people know me as, hey, he's that guy that always films around schools or making podcasts, but that is actually ten, 15% of my work. And I was glad, John, that I met you, that you are also making films.

00:03:50:11 - 00:04:13:00
Geert Kloppenburg
And I was pleased to be in your podcast and talk about best practices, from all around the world. And what I like to do always is that certainly Dutch people, they will say to the rest of the world how good we are and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And I always like to show the other flip side of the coin, in any different city.

00:04:13:01 - 00:04:33:18
Geert Kloppenburg
So this is the policy level. Very nice. This is the data, very nice. But now we're going to look at the street and see what's happening there and how can we improve it. And that's actually my work, Jonas. And sometimes I have a foundation going. Sometimes I start up a company, and sometimes I work as an advisor.

00:04:33:18 - 00:04:48:08
Geert Kloppenburg
And that's actually. But the goal is always the same is how can we improve the lives of the people that actually live in those neighborhoods, in cities or regional areas? Yeah, yeah. I really love John. Yeah.

00:04:48:08 - 00:05:11:17
John Simmerman
No, that's perfect. That's perfect. And I really appreciate the, the, the context of, of the work that you do in the videos that you produced. Because yes, you are shining light on the fact that, oftentimes around the globe, countries and cities are looking to the Netherlands and they're like putting you on a high pedestal and making it seem like y'all are perfect.

00:05:11:20 - 00:05:50:18
John Simmerman
But you really point out that, we've got the same sort of origin story there in the Netherlands as many other cities. You went through your struggles in the 1950s and 1960s into the 1970s, and really fought to change what the streets are like, and you like to shine a light on the fact that in many cases, especially around trying, you know, kids trying to get to school, students trying to get to school, you're still struggling with, you know, those challenges, especially in those neighborhoods, where car dependency and, and sort of the, the I hate certain areas being overrun by cars.

00:05:50:25 - 00:06:01:09
John Simmerman
There's a lot of challenges. So I think it can be kind of shocking to some people. So I appreciate that you shine the light on that. And we're going to show some of that in a little bit.

00:06:01:12 - 00:06:24:05
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah. Because the what I wanted to shine a light on too, is the explosion of the delivery vans coming into the neighborhoods in the city. So that's where the schools are. That's where the people go to the sports. So we think of buying everything by internet and are coming 50 different delivery vans who don't operate or work together.

00:06:24:05 - 00:06:48:18
Geert Kloppenburg
And policy measures are not there yet. There are in the inner inner inner city, but where the people live is in the neighborhoods within the ring roads we always call it. And so it's two things that actually have really changed for the last 20 to 25 years. And the amount of people that go by bike is increasing and increasing.

00:06:48:18 - 00:07:09:27
Geert Kloppenburg
And that even means that the situation actually on the crossings and near the schools, but not only at a 8:15, but also at 12, and also if they go out to schools, gets worse and worse and worse. Sorry, I just wanted to add that it is more than only cars I know. Let's go fast cars is war on cars but well no no no no I.

00:07:09:29 - 00:07:42:29
John Simmerman
I I'm glad you pointed that out, but indulge me just for one second in terms of your origin story, you mentioned that you were like you involved with the taxi. You've got this entrepreneur band. What was the origin story of you kind of shifting your lens and your focus, your energy towards school and kids in street safety? There has to be something in there that either it just sort of gradually headed that direction, or there had to be like an event that where you're like, yeah, that was it.

00:07:43:01 - 00:07:45:03
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah, that's a good question.

00:07:45:06 - 00:07:58:12
John Simmerman
I mean, for some people that I've interviewed, it's been like being a parent and they're like, oh, you. Because you mentioned he's got four kids. So, you know, that could be part of it too, I would imagine.

00:07:58:15 - 00:08:31:03
Geert Kloppenburg
Yes and no. I think that I came back from a strategic workshop or session with our Ministry of Transport together with, I think the municipality of Rotterdam and Amsterdam. And we talked about this vision and strategy, what should be on and not on. And what happened to me. Most of the times I get so annoyed that I thought to myself, we're looking at the wrong data.

00:08:31:06 - 00:09:11:20
Geert Kloppenburg
That's one we're not looking at what's going on at the streets. And if we keep on pushing those lorries and delivery vans within those cities, the problem does not get solved around the neighborhood. So how can I, in a way, show what's not there in the sustainable urban mobility plans and show them that this is where the people, the school directors and the people living in those areas are so annoyed and so keen on road safety and livability in that area.

00:09:11:22 - 00:09:34:18
Geert Kloppenburg
So then I thought to myself, what is a better way than just start filming it? But then, of course, there was that joke of my child If I'm actually can grab my camera, I've got a camera from, I think 1980 and and are you going to film and are you a filmmaker now? You. I said, no, I've studied law and history, so.

00:09:34:21 - 00:09:59:05
Geert Kloppenburg
But what are you. Dad? What are you doing? Why are you going in the morning? In the afternoon and in the night? Are you going to the same place? Because I said I want to show, what's really going on? Yeah. That's how it started, John. Yeah. And finished around about seven movies now.

00:09:59:07 - 00:10:03:10
Geert Kloppenburg
And what you see now. So the comment on it. Oh yeah.

00:10:03:10 - 00:10:09:05
John Simmerman
Absolutely. I mean, and I wanted to pull in some visuals here, to, to talk a little bit about.

00:10:09:05 - 00:10:29:18
Geert Kloppenburg
This, like next stuff like my, my camera. And then I'm a professional cameraman came in. He said I was not allowed to film anymore. But but the problem, my cameraman had said, you are really going to the places and doing it yourself. So I cannot always be there. But this is his camera work and the drone. That was after the 20th time.

00:10:29:18 - 00:10:51:06
Geert Kloppenburg
Somebody else said, you need to get the drone in, because you have to show from the point of view of the child, you have to show it from different angles, and you have to show it from above, because and actually it was funny. It this is like then this data traffic accidents. But most importantly on this topic is 70% of the traffic accidents.

00:10:51:06 - 00:11:16:24
Geert Kloppenburg
We don't report. So the normal situation here, it's not in the policy measures. We don't know. We just don't know. This is the real stuff. And as soon as you show it to, also what I like about this story, I showed it to the lorry driver and he said, it's magic what you do. It's absolutely matching my own grandchildren.

00:11:16:24 - 00:11:40:04
Geert Kloppenburg
They live and gold. I don't want to be here with the lorry. I don't, but I do it because money and the people say I have to blah blah blah, blah blah, and here you see the amount of accidents that happen in Dutch cities. To give you an idea that's €27 billion every year, every single year. So this is absolutely nightmare.

00:11:40:06 - 00:12:07:24
Geert Kloppenburg
Absolutely. This is what we say, oh, blah blah blah. And this is where the trucks are at 8:00 in the morning, and all the children are going by bike in the morning to the school because the, the parents say, I've been brought up in Harlem, Breda, Rotterdam, Amsterdam. And they just go. But the parents don't see how much the situation with the delivery vans and normal cars has changed for over 30 years.

00:12:07:24 - 00:12:31:06
Geert Kloppenburg
There are so many more that it's just a lack of space. So it's the same story as in any city. And here you see with trams and here you see the signs, hey, lorry drivers should come at 8:00 in the morning. And it's not a comedy show, it's life. So what we say is a policy. Come in with the lorries from 8:00 because then the students go to school.

00:12:31:13 - 00:12:56:12
Geert Kloppenburg
It's like, who is? Who is always thinking of a new logistics system because of course everybody understands that food and drinks and all that. Why are we going in with so such a big lorries? Why in cities that are there for 400 years ago? It's just insane.

00:12:56:14 - 00:13:32:01
John Simmerman
So two things come up. One, one of the things that we're trying to do in the United States is change our language, around collisions and crashes and calling them collisions or crashes, because using the term accident, sort of leaves the impression that, oh, there's nothing that could have been done. And really, what we're talking about here are not really accidents in that sense, because there's plenty of things that can be done the the actual built environment can be changed to prevent these.

00:13:32:01 - 00:13:59:10
John Simmerman
These are preventable occurrences. Preventable in incidents. Is there something similar in Dutch and Dutch language where you guys have a difference in, in defining what's, a preventable crash or collision versus an accident versus something that happens? That's sort of the will of God or its nature. You know, an asteroid came down and caused an accident, and there was nothing we could do to prevent it.

00:13:59:17 - 00:14:09:29
John Simmerman
Is there something similar in language and in Dutch that where you define for that difference between what can be avoided and not avoided?

00:14:10:01 - 00:14:29:22
Geert Kloppenburg
And I love your question, John. I didn't know that you are going to ask those hard question. My answer is yes. And I think the best person in Holland is Professor Markel. To promote suit. He's at the University of Amsterdam. He's all the time saying, we have to change the language. I actually I've learned a lot from him, too.

00:14:29:24 - 00:14:57:18
Geert Kloppenburg
What? My language now was very much to policy officer. But you can have different languages on the same subjects and actually trying to change the opinion in the way we talk about it. So what I tried to do is coming from a very much an economical side and saying and the second thing I did where everybody was surprised that I say, this is not an accident, this is a planned Exxon.

00:14:57:20 - 00:15:27:01
Geert Kloppenburg
We are know that this is going to happen. So maybe the word excellent is not even right. But what is in this video that we say 90% of road safety in Holland is about, behavioral change. And what I wanted to say is this is economic economics. Sorry. It's statistics. It's real statistics. We just know that this is going to go wrong.

00:15:27:02 - 00:15:31:24
Geert Kloppenburg
It's not a matter of all nature. No. Yeah. We know this.

00:15:31:24 - 00:15:46:20
John Simmerman
Is I love that graphic that just showed up was all, you know, no texting and earbuds and all that. It's like trying to blame human behavior when we need to change the system and the infrastructure and allowing these lorries.

00:15:46:23 - 00:16:09:12
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I like your that's what your question is like, do you also have to change the word excellent towards it. Isn't Axel. And and I agree I actually I should also change my language more from. No it's not and then my English is not good enough. But I would say it's. Yeah, it's, it's it's how I always work with one of the best people.

00:16:09:12 - 00:16:36:20
Geert Kloppenburg
And he's saying he was his safety officer of Shell Siemens. We had all those guys coming together and looking at that video and they said immediately they said, if we are fully at sea or at a building, how do you say setup? They say they don't give us a permit if we do this at a close.

00:16:36:22 - 00:17:03:08
Geert Kloppenburg
Venue or track or at the shell said we are not going to open it. What is happening on the street? And what you are saying is we should stop this immediately. The funny thing is, what happens in Rotterdam? I had one film there. Filmed at a school, and in three days the mayor of Rotterdam said enough police was coming in and they said they're closing down the road straight away.

00:17:03:09 - 00:17:34:03
Geert Kloppenburg
We're not going to wait another day. Enough. Is this the current behavior? Because 80% of the behavior is good, but 20% of the behavior is terrible. And yeah, then you need to have somebody who's saying enough is enough. And and the infrastructure certainly the cycling infrastructure with the amount of people that cycle that that is just blaming a child from 12 to 14 or 16.

00:17:34:03 - 00:18:11:16
Geert Kloppenburg
You know, when I was going to school, I've never, ever we obtained rules like, looking at a nice girl next to me or I've, I haven't done my school, but if the infrastructure is right, I'm not getting into trouble because it's made for elderly people. And younger people. So the infrastructure, what I wanted to show with the videos is looking through the eyes and the brains of a 14 or 15 year old, and should we blame him or her about her behavior?

00:18:11:16 - 00:18:41:26
Geert Kloppenburg
Or should we blame about the way we design and actually structurally design the ways of getting the lorries in at ten, past eight? I think we should discuss the second thing instead of the first thing. But, John, as soon as I come out of this work session of how do we get road safety down the, the, the funny I get, I'm getting I'm get this is going to be long work.

00:18:41:29 - 00:19:05:16
Geert Kloppenburg
The problem in those workshop is they're looking at accidents and somebody dies and we call this this black spot this. And I get really annoyed about the black spot list because the black spot list, maybe we should not do something about that black spot, but we should do something in an area where there hasn't been an accident. But the current situation is a total nightmare where you want to change it.

00:19:05:16 - 00:19:36:24
Geert Kloppenburg
So what you see with policy is they going very much about black spots instead of designing a desirable system. Right. That is a total different and the second thing is going through the eyes of a 76 year old like my mom. Yeah. Or somebody who is 12 to 14. I just released a new film. And actually I was totally filming only from the point of view.

00:19:36:24 - 00:20:02:00
Geert Kloppenburg
Also lower in camera from the what what the child sees and you get you get away from these ridiculous questions of yeah, do you know what we should do? We should have a lorry driver teaching the children that we need to have another mirror, because he's got the black spot. No, that that lorry should not be there.

00:20:02:03 - 00:20:04:09
Geert Kloppenburg
That's it. Sorry.

00:20:04:12 - 00:20:27:06
John Simmerman
So that brings up my second of the two questions, that that this brought up. And the second one is, you had mentioned that, you know, what are we doing? We've got these old cities, and we're forced fitting these automobiles into that environment. And specifically, we're forced fitting these massively sized lorries and and delivery vehicles into these areas.

00:20:27:09 - 00:20:54:03
John Simmerman
That just doesn't make sense. So my question is, is are there any cities? And because this is this gets to the gist of some of the work that you really do beyond filming the 90% is you're actually consulting with cities and states and ministries. Are there any bright spots in terms of cities that are pushing those vehicles out, teetering cargo bikes?

00:20:54:05 - 00:21:24:24
Geert Kloppenburg
Yes. There's hope. Please give me hope. Okay, so, let's talk about the old Greeks and Romans that were 2000 years ago. That was my history background. And I would love to say that in your podcast, certainly to Americans, how was it possible that 200,000 people came to the ancient city of Rome 2000 years ago, and it was not a Coliseum because that was 50,000, but I was just a little bit further away and they had these.

00:21:25:00 - 00:21:30:09
Geert Kloppenburg
I can't I'm sorry, I can't with the horses. And they were with driving with to horses and there was two.

00:21:30:15 - 00:21:32:07
John Simmerman
Chariot chariot races. Yes.

00:21:32:07 - 00:22:00:12
Geert Kloppenburg
Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. And I felt thanks for helping me along. And we had the same discussion in Rotterdam, the camp, our most famous football stadium, 60,000 people could come in, and it was packed in the 1930s. How did the people get there? Did they die because they. They didn't have a car. What what what what is this story about guys?

00:22:00:12 - 00:22:33:14
Geert Kloppenburg
Come on. So sharing best practices from Istanbul where they have that dormouse system which is brilliant, sharing best practices from Milan where a guy called Demetrius Teeny. He's just magic. He's he's changing with tactical urban change. The the streets in the cities. I'm now in Barcelona. Barcelona. Super blocks is a is an example of a city where they've actually changed something.

00:22:33:14 - 00:22:57:07
Geert Kloppenburg
But I've. I can also be depressed because I'm in Barcelona now and I'm thinking to myself, okay, these these super blocks are really good and I understand why they do it. But the last time I was here, I think the situation with the traffic is even worse than in LA, am I? Because they've got these single roads going three lanes, one way, three lanes.

00:22:57:07 - 00:23:17:01
Geert Kloppenburg
The other way. Today I was looking with my, sounds. How much sounds? The I was like, Holy shit, they need they don't need to make one super block. They need to make many. And as soon as I was talking about super blocks and say, are you expanding it? They said, no, we've got a lot of trouble here.

00:23:17:03 - 00:23:44:07
Geert Kloppenburg
It's not. You know how it goes, politicians waving away and people still want to say, I want to drive with my car in front of my house and, and so I think there are examples from almost any city, but they're all in different phases. Also L.A I see them change. I actually think they're coming from, as we call it, 20 nil down.

00:23:44:10 - 00:24:17:18
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah. But they are trying to change it. Also New York I see many cycling paths being changed. I see the streets being strange. I see advocates on the road. I see that the situation is also being changed from I've just made a film for, the city, let's say Amsterdam, but I think that people realize much more that we've got this situation with cars and lorries, and some people advocate very long already, like we should ban them more.

00:24:17:19 - 00:24:50:27
Geert Kloppenburg
But there are so many other reasons then road safety that if you create heat stress in a city like Barcelona, it's 32 degrees or 35 degrees and it goes up to 37 degrees during almost 60 days a year. So they need to check. But and on the other hand, everybody has seen what's happening. Valencia just two days ago where there was a huge storm with a lot of rain coming down and we can't get the flooding away.

00:24:50:27 - 00:25:09:11
Geert Kloppenburg
So what we need to do with the cities is make it greener, not because it has to be green or what. Now we also need it for the water system. We need it for heat. We need it for so many different reasons. And what I like to give you an idea in Holland we are expanding our highways all the time.

00:25:09:11 - 00:25:36:09
Geert Kloppenburg
It's a total nightmare. Every time more cars and the traffic jams in Holland they are LA like to really to give you an idea LA like every day you can't you cannot move your car from Amsterdam to Rotterdam. It's a disaster. But what we see now that the top level head of strategy of our road department has said it's impossible.

00:25:36:16 - 00:26:05:06
Geert Kloppenburg
We can not move along anymore. But this and what he says, what I really like. And the Dutch are famous of course, for their water. Management. They've said water and the ground is leading for all the strategic, plans we have to make. So mobility has to wait. Why? Because it's coming. So much rain down and the ground is going down because of agriculture.

00:26:05:08 - 00:26:28:02
Geert Kloppenburg
We need to change the cities a lot quicker. And if we keep on pumping those lorries and cars on old asphalt, the asphalt needs to go out. It needs to go out for other reasons than only road safety. So did the, as we call it, the circle of arguments to change cities. You see cities changing from environmental point.

00:26:28:03 - 00:26:54:06
Geert Kloppenburg
You see cities changing from road safety for you see cities changing from noise pollution. You see. So there are different reasons why. And what I find always very interesting is that for me, it's it's not a matter of that. It becomes more difficult. It becomes more logic it and it becomes cheaper. And what we say is the accessibility goes up.

00:26:54:06 - 00:27:18:00
Geert Kloppenburg
I would love to share an example where everybody in Holland said it would have been impossible, and it was an event called the Grand Prix Formula one going to Stanford. The place I live, it's 25km from Amsterdam. It's only got two roads, and I think everybody in the whole world knows what happens as soon as it goes 25 degrees to 30 degrees.

00:27:18:02 - 00:27:39:28
Geert Kloppenburg
Also in New York, if you want to go to the beach, then disaster y disaster, everybody goes at the same time. So, so. But people don't understand that on an average beach day, people go there, come 50 to 75,000 people to this little village with only 5000 inhabitants and two rows, and there are only 12,000 parking lots.

00:27:39:28 - 00:28:07:19
Geert Kloppenburg
So everybody understands this is not going to work, but also for children are going to be hit by a car on the same roundabout. Circles. There are two roundabouts and everybody know it's going to happen and it happens all the time. But now Max Verstappen came to my town zone for it and everybody has what the, what the hell are you going with hundred thousand people to this little village where it's always a nightmare.

00:28:07:19 - 00:28:37:20
Geert Kloppenburg
You've got one train station and what are you doing? And I got advised by Heineken and they said seven years ago, how are you guys going to manage? I said, the only two things you need to do and we will solve the rest is step one say no cars are allowed to enter that event at all. Second, no Uber, no taxis, nothing free.

00:28:37:23 - 00:28:57:12
Geert Kloppenburg
All the disabled people are can go through fire, police, ambulances can go through. Funny thing is that normal ambulance time is 45 minutes. Going to the hospital today or today. This day it was ten minutes. Like all the people driving. I mean, it's like, what the hell, we are in time.

00:28:57:14 - 00:29:11:14
John Simmerman
So it's amazing what happens when you get all those cars off of that, that network. It's like, oh, you mean the disabled can get in easier? Oh, emergency services can get through easier. Yes.

00:29:11:14 - 00:29:30:06
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah. And and also from my point of view was I even like myself I did not expect what's the fourth thing is that for the citizens that actually live there, they gave a pass and said you are allowed to go through my, my wife is a nurse and she said, yes, I'm really glad that Max for stop is here in the country, but I have to help the elderly people, so I need to go out.

00:29:30:06 - 00:30:01:27
Geert Kloppenburg
So I had this PA system and it worked tremendously. She also said I'm quicker to the hospital up and down than in a normal situation. And then the question came along, how do we get those hundred thousand people towards the country? There were 25,000 people cycling. That was unbelievable. And the second thing was to train normally operates only twice an hour.

00:30:01:29 - 00:30:37:18
Geert Kloppenburg
And if you see that it's becoming there's going to be 25 degrees. Our National Transport Authority does not react. So it's going to be totally. But now they were running 12 times an hour on the same track. Nothing had to be changed. So we're we're using the infrastructure. Absolutely super. And what I like people could come with their cars and we all had hops where they could take their shared bike, where 5000 people coming by shared bike and like, how do you say that?

00:30:37:18 - 00:31:01:05
Geert Kloppenburg
Everybody was just stunned at even myself like and and oh my, even my brother was phoning me like, oh, here there's going to be a disaster at your place. I said, disaster, disaster. We are playing football out on the streets. I've been I've been my home and for my wife for the nurse there. The accessibility has increased two times.

00:31:01:05 - 00:31:25:18
Geert Kloppenburg
The pollution went down 50%. And the road safety, those folk, it's normally getting hit on those two roundabouts. They did not get hit because it was a no car. Like it's the examples like what I always like about arts. And if, if it is New York or LA or whatever, it's like the imagination that it can be done.

00:31:25:20 - 00:32:03:02
Geert Kloppenburg
And people all over the world, if it is stay around, they're changing. Of course, we think of all terror and we should not talk about terror on their life. Quite normal people in tech, not all of them are idiots. I always watch the news now talk to the people. Talk to the people in LA. And what I'm very keen on is this grand prix thing is an example for the rich, and I think we should definitely do something about the outskirts of our cities.

00:32:03:04 - 00:32:35:12
Geert Kloppenburg
And that means W in Paris, that means in L.A., the people that live on the streets. Why? Because I, I 12 years ago, I did the whole introduction of electric vehicles in the Netherlands and in Europe. So, electric biking, electric charging station, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I still think it's a good idea to electrify. But I've always said electrifying is okay.

00:32:35:14 - 00:33:10:09
Geert Kloppenburg
But please have a look at the metro system in Paris that's already down 400 years and cycling too. It's not a matter of we're going to electrify SUV, and getting SUV is electrifying going into the cities. Are we absolutely not casing ourselves? What are we doing that is not within circularity? That is just rubbish. And what you see that the car manufacturers are, of course doing the same story and I really hope that we can.

00:33:10:11 - 00:33:29:15
Geert Kloppenburg
And I actually learned in Los Angeles, to be honest, because I was there and everybody was like blah, blah, blah and Uber days and Uber and I was already there 12 years ago and Tesla is coming. And I was like, I'm going in in a bus. And everybody said, are you going in the bus? Yeah, for $1.

00:33:29:15 - 00:33:58:01
Geert Kloppenburg
I mean, the bus. And I saw the people there and I talked to the driver in Los Angeles, and I said, I was such a nice guy. And I said, what was the last time that Los Angeles moved? You had a big, big, big smile. And he said to me, 1984 Mr. Kloppenburg 1984 during the Olympic Games, we were moving.

00:33:58:04 - 00:34:30:26
Geert Kloppenburg
We had the best system with the busses going up, down, up, down, up, down, no left turns for cars. One special aim and I looked at the system of L.A. and said, just paint one lane towards busses and use that system again. Come on guys, come on, it's cheap. The asphalt is already there. Move the taxis on the bus lanes, get the other lanes out, but at least start moving that system that for that $1, those people will have to go to work.

00:34:30:28 - 00:35:10:24
Geert Kloppenburg
And that we use a and we we identify systems and not, sharing cars that are really expensive and know we need to get stuff in that is accessible for the poor people, for the elderly people, and for the for the children. If we design for those persons, then the rest will follow. But the problem we make in Amsterdam also all the time, what we're doing, we restructuring and slam central station, or we restructuring the station at Amsterdam South, where all the rich people go and the consultants go and we invest our money.

00:35:10:24 - 00:35:37:15
Geert Kloppenburg
But I'm so proud that my work, we went in with a whole delegation of 25 people, also with our deputy mayor and said, where are we going here? So we're going to the bar. You said this to dangerous. I said, I don't care, we are going there. That's where 12 and half million people live there. So nice that we talk with John and me about the cycling change that's been going on in Paris.

00:35:37:15 - 00:36:01:08
Geert Kloppenburg
That is absolutely magic, I agree, but the next step is moving those people that that live outside, we have to change. So I was really proud when we came back with his delegation, they removed their investment from round about 700 to €800 million, saying not going to invest at South Station. We are going to invest in the suburbs.

00:36:01:10 - 00:36:25:16
Geert Kloppenburg
We are going to invest on evenings and nights. We are going to invest for women that they can also go on their bike and it's not dangerous for them at 10:00 at night. We don't see that in our data. Yes, but that's what we do seen in the films of here. We don't even want to let our own daughters come to those stations because it's a nightmare.

00:36:25:21 - 00:36:45:13
Geert Kloppenburg
And then a typical McKinsey consultant comes home. No, we should not do what he says, because the data says that there are not enough people in the west of the town taking the station or taking. He said, yeah, but you don't know. Why do they not take it? Because it's too expensive or dangerous. You've never been there with your consulting PowerPoint system?

00:36:45:13 - 00:37:01:01
Geert Kloppenburg
I have been there. I had my own taxi companies and I'm not afraid to talk to the people. And then you will hear the stories and what we always say. The best expert is the school director.

00:37:01:04 - 00:37:01:14
John Simmerman
Right?

00:37:01:19 - 00:37:03:12
Geert Kloppenburg
They know it better than me.

00:37:03:14 - 00:37:29:20
John Simmerman
Yeah, well, you just you just mentioned you just mentioned your films. And so we're we're lingering here on your landing page for your YouTube channel. And, and we want to really encourage everybody, please be sure to subscribe to this fabulous channel. And I see that it's your it's your name. And then it's, 1889. Is there any significance to 1889 behind your name?

00:37:29:22 - 00:37:49:01
Geert Kloppenburg
That is definitely because I'm a total idiot at YouTube. I've never done any promotion on it. I've got no idea. So if people are listening to this, to say, hey, this guy's got 150 films, it's absolutely magic. Please, I need some help with this. I'm great big at LinkedIn, to be quite honest. So you do it well.

00:37:49:01 - 00:37:58:02
John Simmerman
We'll make sure to include the, your link to your LinkedIn page because you are fantastic out on LinkedIn. You do a great job of posting.

00:37:58:05 - 00:38:21:19
Geert Kloppenburg
Like there are a couple of people like you and some other international really interesting people. There are quite a lot bigger on YouTube. Yeah, but I work very much with the professionals. I've got 35,000 people that follow me on LinkedIn. And I always put my films in directly on LinkedIn. I don't even give the link to YouTube because I don't care about YouTube.

00:38:21:19 - 00:38:24:16
Geert Kloppenburg
But I do think that we don't.

00:38:24:23 - 00:38:29:09
John Simmerman
We never say those words here on the on the channel.

00:38:29:12 - 00:38:30:05
Geert Kloppenburg
Alright.

00:38:30:08 - 00:38:58:14
John Simmerman
So I do want to make sure that we, we walk through, some of your most recent, videos. So, recently this is one of the things that you had posted. And, again, I think it's really important to, to understand the context of, of what it is you're producing and why you're producing it. And the spirit is really trying to shine a light on the fact that we could do better.

00:38:58:16 - 00:39:10:20
John Simmerman
And I can't I can't recall if you actually answered my question. Is there any city or group of cities that are doing well of getting dealing with this traffic around the schools, and specifically the lorries?

00:39:10:20 - 00:39:23:07
Geert Kloppenburg
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, was absolutely. Yes. So I wanted to shine on different projects in different cities. But for example, Paris is just magic. It's unbelievable how many schools for each day have started.

00:39:23:07 - 00:39:45:05
John Simmerman
So oh man. Yeah, I was there. I was there this summer. It's amazing. And what I loved about the school streets is, is literally you can see an example with their permanent school streets where you can be there on the weekend or on the holidays, and it's since it's permanent infrastructure, that street is now considered place space for kids.

00:39:45:06 - 00:39:46:11
John Simmerman
It's kid space. Yeah.

00:39:46:12 - 00:40:14:04
Geert Kloppenburg
I to be honest and my mother studied in Paris and I'll go there very often. And the funny thing is that where you see that Paris was like ten zero behind Holland, always. They're moving ahead of us. They are getting those school streets ready far quicker than we do. It's unbelievable how well they. And this I also saw here in Barcelona there were 250 schools, streets.

00:40:14:04 - 00:40:38:25
Geert Kloppenburg
They were implementing quite quickly. I talked to the deputy mayor of, Milan. She was really keen. Says she, I loved her. She was such a nice lady, 65 years old. And she was Italian. I and she said, we are lagging behind here. We are terrible. And we are going to do it the Italian way, but we will be back.

00:40:38:27 - 00:41:13:24
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Yes. People come and cities come from different positions moving in there because sometimes it's changed infrastructure on cycling and also towards school in a way that sometimes I think to myself, oh, I'm not 100% sure, but at least they take actions really quickly. In Berlin, for instance, they've done so there are shown there are bits and pieces everywhere, but there is no city that's just doing the whole lot.

00:41:13:24 - 00:41:36:24
Geert Kloppenburg
So some cities are at level eight, some five, some three. But I always very much look at the delta is I'm much more curious about their going. Are they going from two towards five? I think they've done well. And then the next step, instead of blaming that somebody who's at level two said, yeah, come on guys, start working.

00:41:36:27 - 00:41:38:26
Geert Kloppenburg
Let's go. Yeah.

00:41:38:29 - 00:41:45:07
John Simmerman
And you just mentioned, Milan, talk a little bit more about, what's going on there.

00:41:45:09 - 00:42:12:20
Geert Kloppenburg
Milan. Yeah. Just meant it's making that tactical change like they are changing very much getting cars out and removing that towards piazzas, just squares. And of course, their whole city is one big museum anyway, but they don't seem to get can get out because they've moved in all those cars. And they're making technical changes that.

00:42:12:22 - 00:42:42:11
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah. Same as in Barcelona, is that people can't drive into it anymore. They're changing their squares at the schools themselves. They're they're having, ping pong tables or table table tennis. How do you call it? And benches there and trees. So they're actually changing the environment. And what's so funny that people, elderly people. And suddenly during Covid, they came out and said, we are glad that we can't come out because otherwise we're stuck.

00:42:42:13 - 00:43:10:18
Geert Kloppenburg
And then they they even they said themselves is that we forgot how nice our city was. We just forgot. Yeah. No, it's funny. And I made the video and I talked to this brilliant architect designer, Dimitrios Baldini, and I said, I want to come down to Milan. And you see, in the end, I don't know what's in this video, but some things you can do by zoom or see.

00:43:10:19 - 00:43:40:09
Geert Kloppenburg
But the feeling when I was there and there was no sound, there was sound of children, right? There was no pollution. It was the air was okay. And the children and the mothers and the fathers were laughing and having really good Italian coffee. Right. And that is difficult to explain for me by video. So my videos went up to 1.5 million.

00:43:40:09 - 00:44:08:22
Geert Kloppenburg
This video of Milan and the other one went up really high too. But it's, it's that's why I always want to say to people also in those suburbs where poor people live or go to the plate and then you actually sense it, so then you can make a better solution for that specific area. So even myself, I was surprised when I was there and also the designer himself, like Demetrio, he loved the guy up, right?

00:44:08:23 - 00:44:29:26
Geert Kloppenburg
Magic guy? He he also said, I was surprised too. I we met the plan, we draw it, but the outcome was like we we could not even imagine it was better. He said, what's better than the Vinci? The people were talking to each other again. We didn't do it for years. We're only shouting at each other.

00:44:29:29 - 00:44:58:18
John Simmerman
Yeah, and what I love about this video too, is it, sort of emphasize is, is the lighter, quicker, cheaper ethic of doing tactical urbanism and like, hey, let's move fast, let's get some paint on the ground. Let's try to transform this environment very quickly. We'll throw a ping pong table out there, table tennis. We'll do whatever we can to like, reframe how people are thinking about this space, the street space.

00:44:58:21 - 00:45:29:02
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah, absolutely. And I Berlin's done examples with pop up bike lanes and and it's so important that we technology can help but that the, the people themselves can change the city with the measurements and I would love to give the example of we've talked about tactical, tactical, quite smaller projects like piazzas like Barcelona, super blocks like New York, carrying some parking places out.

00:45:29:03 - 00:45:52:22
Geert Kloppenburg
And then there is a terrace like old. But on the other hand, let's talk, let's go one step up and say we're not looking at street or neighborhood, but now we look at a new traffic circulation plan. What are the costs and what are the benefits and what are the best examples? I've been come up. Maybe a listener comes up to me hit you forgot to come to my lovely place in whatever I said.

00:45:52:24 - 00:46:19:15
Geert Kloppenburg
But definitely going up north is in the 1970s. They've had this traffic plan saying you are not allowed to go by car through the city. You can't go in in one place, but you have to go out tent city in Belgium, they have come to this idea from holding it and they've expanded it to a wider area. So they've taken the next step.

00:46:19:17 - 00:46:36:24
Geert Kloppenburg
And now Paris just I think three weeks ago, I don't know, I don't know exactly what they did, but they've they've done it again. Paris have changed the access towards three different arrondissement neighborhoods which saying not allowed to go through.

00:46:36:27 - 00:46:41:13
John Simmerman
Yeah. And and I just and I just pulled up here Berlin pop up. Yeah. There's a bike lane area.

00:46:41:19 - 00:47:06:06
Geert Kloppenburg
Of bike lanes and and there I want to show what I always want to show is sorry, this is the current situation. People don't like to see it, but the current situation is a nightmare. Yes. Let's stopped there and then say, okay, what have they changed? And whereas here you see the potential of the change, right? What still can be done that's important instead of only videoing one place.

00:47:06:06 - 00:47:26:29
Geert Kloppenburg
So I always go back to data graphics and saying okay, this is the potential and it's not costing much. And this is how much it means for public health, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. All those arguments and then showing how it can be done. And then you see suddenly in Berlin, they made a lot of changes and they become permanent.

00:47:27:04 - 00:48:01:07
Geert Kloppenburg
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. And oh, my idea. That's also a thing of tactical change. It's the same kind of solution is saying the public space is a common. The public space is for everybody. And I, I must emphasize that so many times is that we always start off. And I actually also learned that in America, I was surprised when I was traveling highway one and suddenly I saw this blah, blah, blah exclusive golf club.

00:48:01:07 - 00:48:19:03
Geert Kloppenburg
And I was like, oh gosh, there we go again. Best sport for the rich people. And I've been brought up very rich yet, to be honest, I can't help it. But suddenly I saw this natural park and it was at the best place at the by far the best place. And it was free. I said, who organized it?

00:48:19:06 - 00:48:42:17
Geert Kloppenburg
Said, yeah, Franklin D Roosevelt. They said, we want to have national parks accessible to everybody for €0. And then I came back to Italy. And this is what I mean by the public space is a common. The beaches in in Italy, it's a humongous problem where they sell the beach towards somebody who says it's only allowed to come there to the beach if you're rich enough to pay for it.

00:48:42:23 - 00:49:09:17
Geert Kloppenburg
Sorry, guys. The public space in the streets, in the cities is a common and a common means. It's an ahora. And an ahora is the Greek word for a place for everybody, not only for John, not only for here. It's for everybody. And we are going to design it for everybody, and not for one guy who lives there with his electric SUV.

00:49:09:17 - 00:49:46:15
Geert Kloppenburg
An extra charge. No that's not we're going to design our beaches, our natural reserve parks, our public place, in the streets. So it's always a discussion about values and then technical changes, which people can easily implement, which the director of the school and the children, they can repeat it to them, to their own parents are saying. So this morning I went up for children, 150 children towards their school and the children and said I love it.

00:49:46:20 - 00:50:23:00
Geert Kloppenburg
Why? And they the, the the girl said to me, I can move independently from my parents. I can just go. And the morning has started because I cycle with my friends towards the school. That is it. Like those values we cannot calculate. What we can calculate is what a parking plot place costs. And no, seriously. And I'm in this models with on national level saying are we going to make another tunnel, let's say for Manhattan and then Amsterdam, because we've got rivers too.

00:50:23:00 - 00:50:50:26
Geert Kloppenburg
And there are rivers in every big town. The Tiber in Rome descend in Paris, in Manhattan, we've got the Hudson, and in Amsterdam we've got the day. So same story all the time. Nothing different. Same story. But you know, you you guys don't know how stupid we are in Holland is saying as soon as we put in more car through the tunnel with only one person in it, that means we are going to expand the tunnel.

00:50:51:01 - 00:51:08:04
Geert Kloppenburg
I said, can we also do something about how many people are in that car, or are we going to do the same again? And here I'm sorry, I change the topic because you put it on here. People said that cycling in Amsterdam was safe and now it's like going on the street, being there for. Look at the time.

00:51:08:04 - 00:51:41:21
Geert Kloppenburg
1103 look at 1113. This is what happens if you put in so many delivery events and you're surprised at the amount of accidents. And I get really annoyed if people say, yeah, Amsterdam is such a Walhalla and have a look at what kind of situation and people have to, go to. It's interesting that actually foreigners talk to us saying, yeah, cycling in Amsterdam is really nice, but you guys are idiots and don't wear helmets and it's too dangerous.

00:51:41:21 - 00:52:04:18
Geert Kloppenburg
And I think we shouldn't wear helmets, but we should change this situation, which is ridiculous. That is the real story because there are so many cyclists now there that if a car wants to turn right, yes, to wait for ten minutes and you understand, John, what's happening that also a Dutch car driver gets annoyed or a lorry driver and he pushes.

00:52:04:18 - 00:52:29:01
Geert Kloppenburg
That's what you see here. You see normal human behavior because it takes too long. So it's not the behavioral point of view of the delivery van. He that guy has been waiting there and says enough is enough. I'm going now. So this is all design, design, design. But it's not in our reports. It's not in our data. It's not in.

00:52:29:03 - 00:52:58:03
Geert Kloppenburg
And that's what I want to show to policymakers. And I was surprised, John, that so many people like my videos because certainly also entrepreneurs. I says this is what it is and we are not capable of solving it. And I liked it when the enterprise nurse come along and they say we want to have the change, then the whole storyboard changed because the entrepreneurs or Heineken comes up and said, enough is enough, enough is enough.

00:52:58:06 - 00:53:22:22
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about leadership here. Let's close out with leadership. We've we've sort of channeled, Merrill D'Argo by talking about Paris and the school streets, programs and things of that nature. We've talked about a couple of the cities that are making some strides to taming the lorries and shifting over to better, more intelligent cycle logistics.

00:53:22:24 - 00:53:59:22
John Simmerman
I always love channeling the fact that, you know, oftentimes when you look at the post, you know, the NL post, you'll see them delivering parcels in the mail by cargo bike, frequently. But so, so close this out by, you know, talking a little bit about the power and the necessity of strong leadership. You know, like the vision that Mary held all is, is is, you know, pushing forth and in following up with in Paris, what is the what is the, the that role a strong leadership in seeing some of these changes.

00:53:59:22 - 00:54:24:21
John Simmerman
Because if we just if we listen to status quo the way things have always been or or how they have evolved to be because they haven't always been this way, as you talked about historically. I mean, how did we get along before the automobile? Well, we found a way, but it evolved into allowing a situation where, you know, where we allowed this shit to happen and, and allow, you know, this stuff to go.

00:54:24:22 - 00:54:34:21
John Simmerman
So talk a little bit about that role of leadership and we'll, we'll wrap up, this very first episode. I'm the first of many. I suspect it will go from there.

00:54:34:21 - 00:54:48:06
Geert Kloppenburg
And. I'm kind of a ham. I understand your question, but I immediately doubt. And I don't mean this offensively. Is it the right question? Because I know it.

00:54:48:07 - 00:54:49:16
John Simmerman
May not be the right question.

00:54:49:16 - 00:55:07:28
Geert Kloppenburg
Because no no no no no, I will go. Well, what we look at very often then is who has been the best at the Olympic Games. And then we talk to this coach and he says leadership and blah blah blah. So what we're doing now is on a hill guard though. And she's talking to leadership. And then the discussion goes away.

00:55:08:01 - 00:55:17:13
Geert Kloppenburg
My politicians don't do it and blah blah blah. So everybody who's been listening to this podcast has brilliant leadership in Paris about this lady on I Hill gather.

00:55:17:15 - 00:55:19:06
John Simmerman
Yeah. And and I oh, I'll.

00:55:19:06 - 00:56:01:25
Geert Kloppenburg
Tell you, leadership is. Yeah, the policy officers and school directors that started off this whole thing eight years ago, it did not suddenly happen. Come on guys, that was what why does it happen? Because now seriously? Because people like you, John, coming on to the streets and showing your situation, sharing together. And you too. Yeah, sure. We showing our mistakes and then we we I've, I've, I've heard it so many times that small groups with it seems like little steps and you think to yourself, oh gosh, we're never gonna change it.

00:56:01:27 - 00:56:27:18
Geert Kloppenburg
But suddenly it's that first step became something bigger. And what I don't like that people are often are raising the questions, who has won the Olympic Games? Who is the best mayor? You're like, here, can you give me the top three list of the. I'm like, go away, go to the newspapers and you're one, two, three. Like, do you want to talk to the real people that really change the cities?

00:56:27:20 - 00:56:52:09
Geert Kloppenburg
It's taking longer than five minutes. In your news item of BBC national television. And the funny thing was that I came on to national television with these videos. Right. And everybody loved it. It was like, and they were like, how do you say no bullshit? Just yeah, this is what it is. And it sounds like.

00:56:52:09 - 00:57:10:26
John Simmerman
What you're saying, if I can jump in, it sounds like what you're saying here is, yes, we in your work doing this work at the high levels of leadership in the ministry levels and stuff like that and talking with and trying to illuminate the issue. But it sounds like what you're saying is it's got to be some top down and some bottom up.

00:57:11:01 - 00:57:11:22
John Simmerman
Yeah, it's got to be.

00:57:11:22 - 00:57:35:22
Geert Kloppenburg
Don't forget the bottom up. The bottom up. We see cooperation with wind energy. We see cooperation with mobility that the actual employees together. And we we used to do this that we seen it. And of course the big examples and they're coming from all over the world that change came in Amsterdam in 1970s from the from the women coming on to the streets.

00:57:35:22 - 00:58:05:24
Geert Kloppenburg
But that is happening at many, many, many different cities in. And these examples then become bigger. And I've got a feeling that you I hit a top level so often they say we need you bottom up because otherwise for who are we doing this? Because the only thing that comes up to the highest level is the people that have money and sorry, 2000 lobbyists of Volkswagen coming to Brussels.

00:58:05:26 - 00:58:24:21
Geert Kloppenburg
Yeah. That's not John and Vera, but suddenly we're having a humongous influence on women saying, yeah, very nice Volkswagen with your new SUV electric and with your Dieselgate, but not in my backyard. And again, enough is enough.

00:58:24:23 - 00:58:53:25
John Simmerman
Right? And I'm glad you mentioned that too, because it's it's incredibly important, I think, to understand the context of your location, of your community, of your society, of your government infrastructure. I know, like, for instance, here in Austin, Texas, you know, it's a weak mayor system. So even if you had a mayor that is like expressing a vision and trying to show leadership, he's got to bring the rest of the city council along.

00:58:53:27 - 00:59:23:23
John Simmerman
And the only way that the mayor and the city council can have the political will is to really feel like the community is behind them. And that's where it's so important to make sure that you've got that bottom up, where you've got the community engagement and them really reinforcing to the politicians and and then likewise up to the, the, the staff, the administration and the leadership there that actually builds the stuff, that they understand that.

00:59:23:23 - 00:59:49:08
John Simmerman
Oh, well, this is the the will of the people. And a big part of the challenge of the of creating the will of the people is changing that narrative of showing that there can be a better way. So we have to shine a light on the fact that it's not all rosy, but at the same time, we have to shine a light on what can be and the inspirational stories that it doesn't have to be this way.

00:59:49:10 - 01:00:09:16
John Simmerman
Barcelona doesn't have to be these wide boulevards. It can be what you see in the Super Nias. You know, the super blocks where it's like, oh, okay, we can we can do that. I want to close out by pulling up your LinkedIn page here so that people can, you know, focus in on, you know, trying to engage with you there.

01:00:09:16 - 01:00:32:28
John Simmerman
I know that you spend the majority of your time really focusing in on that and and bringing folks there. So, folks, if you're not already connected with her out on LinkedIn, this is the place to go. I'll make sure to include that link in the show notes below. Thank you so very much for joining me. I'm going to turn you loose to get back into the activity there, and there in Barcelona.

01:00:32:28 - 01:00:35:25
John Simmerman
And, once again, thank you so very much for joining me on.

01:00:35:25 - 01:00:58:02
Geert Kloppenburg
The town for meeting together at fellow city. And we took the action of not saying blah, blah, blah, and we're not going to know we did it. So we are connecting and exchanging and, hopefully, and next time again and sharing also examples from your place. And I hope I've inspired you a little bit that not everything is better at Europe, blah blah blah blah blah.

01:00:58:03 - 01:01:06:06
Geert Kloppenburg
No, we need to exchange this situation that can be done. Imagine from the Beatles bye bye.

01:01:06:09 - 01:01:31:12
John Simmerman
Exactly. Imagine from the Beatles. And I'm glad you mentioned that too, because it actually is helpful. And I do try to emphasize that about, these, international countries that I visit in profile. It's not Shangri-La. They're not perfect. Here's the story of how they got there, and they're still in progress. So that actually makes it even more, accepting.

01:01:31:16 - 01:01:49:26
John Simmerman
And it makes it more real for cities that are struggling because they understand that, yes, you all are still a work in progress. You all are still struggling as well. So we'll let that be the true last word. Again, thank you so very much. Travel safe on your way back on YouTube.

01:01:49:27 - 01:01:51:08
Geert Kloppenburg
Thanks a lot for having me.

01:01:51:08 - 01:02:05:28
John Simmerman
Bye bye. He thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribed to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

01:02:06:01 - 01:02:31:23
John Simmerman
And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Town's channel, please support my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. It's easy to do. Just head on over to Active Town 4G, navigate up to the support tab up at the top of the page there, and there's several different options, including becoming a Patreon supporter. Patrons do get early and ad free access to all my video content, and a every little bit helps and is very much appreciated.

01:02:31:26 - 01:02:57:10
John Simmerman
Again, thank you so much for tuning in. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers and again sending a huge thank you out to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patreon. Buy me a coffee YouTube. Super! Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the Active Towns store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated.

01:02:57:12 - 01:02:58:18
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much!