Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:08 - 00:00:24:13
Dan Piatkowski
You said you're part of this generation. There's a whole generation of people and then subsequent subsequent generations, you know, myself included, of being out on places that are made for cars on a skateboard and saying, wow, like, this place can be different. And yeah, and then now we're at this point where you add the growth of micro-mobility, the growth of bicycles, e bicycles, e cargo bicycles.

00:00:24:16 - 00:00:40:23
Dan Piatkowski
So many people are getting out and it's, it's back to that army of, of, bike lane advocates thing. You know, people are thinking a lot more about what their cities can be, can be for and how they can be used and, and maybe some of the, the limitations of what we've been grandfathered into.

00:00:40:25 - 00:01:03:27
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Daniel Piatkowski, Professor Piatkowski is at OsloMet University. We're going to be talking about his new book, Bicycle City Riding the Bike Boom to a Brighter Future, published by Island Press. A super excited to share this episode with you. it's great to have, Professor Piatkowski back on the channel.

00:01:03:29 - 00:01:10:28
John Simmerman
let's get right to it with Dan.

00:01:11:01 - 00:01:16:22
John Simmerman
Daniel Piatkowski, thank you so much for joining me once again on the Active Towns Podcast. Welcome, Dan.

00:01:16:24 - 00:01:20:21
Dan Piatkowski
Thank you. It's, it's really great to be back, which is a cool thing to say.

00:01:20:23 - 00:01:46:00
John Simmerman
It is a cool thing to say. Yeah. In fact, so you, were on back in, season three, episode 115. We, had that opportunity to to check in and catch up with you. You were giving reflections, your first impressions of what it was like being there in Oslo. You, of course, are an associate professor there at Oslo University.

00:01:46:03 - 00:02:07:02
John Simmerman
And one of the things we really talked about a lot was, cargo bikes. And so, the thumbnail on that particular video we really honed in on cargo bikes are everywhere. And, that was a lot of fun. and then we've got some really fun, photos, from that first, you know, few months and years there in, in Oslo.

00:02:07:02 - 00:02:26:03
John Simmerman
So, you know, walking down memory lane a little bit here. that was a lot of fun. but let's do this. there's a few people, I'm sure, who are, tuning in right now who are like, okay, who is this guy? Professor Peter Kowski. So, Dan, why don't you take just a moment to introduce yourself to the audience?

00:02:26:05 - 00:02:53:26
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. So I am an associate professor of integrated land use and transportation planning at Oslo Met Oslo Metropolitan University, as you said, and as I guess people can watch the other podcast if they really want to. I have been in Norway and Oslo, met for the last two years. Before that, I was at the University of Nebraska in Lincoln for five years, and as an assistant professor prior to that at Savannah State University in Savannah, Georgia.

00:02:53:29 - 00:03:35:28
Dan Piatkowski
And, yeah, my work focuses on sustainable transportation in general. in particular, I really focus on bicycling and walking, as active and sustainable modes of transportation. And it's been, really, really fun the last couple of years, moving to Norway, seeing how differently things are done when it comes to bicycle pedestrian planning, both in Norway but also in Europe in general, and to be able to kind of apply that to thinking about American cities, which is where, you know, I'm from a from the US, and I've been thinking about how American cities can, can improve for my entire career.

00:03:35:28 - 00:03:42:09
Dan Piatkowski
So all of that is what led me to then write this book that we're talking about today.

00:03:42:11 - 00:04:05:26
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned we're going to be talking about a book and in fact, yes, we're going to be talking about this book, the book that is going to be released on May 23rd. And, so basically tomorrow, this this episode's going out on the 22nd. So tomorrow, on May 23rd, this book is going to be available everywhere.

00:04:05:26 - 00:04:29:09
John Simmerman
Fine books are sold. And, and I do have the book out on, my Active Towns bookshop. So the Active Towns Bookshop is, available there. You can do that. But, I really do know that, you know, over on Island Press, if if folks, if you're able to, purchase the book through Island Press, I believe we have a special discount code.

00:04:29:15 - 00:04:56:18
John Simmerman
Let me pull that up here. Boom. There you go. Yeah. We've got a 20%, off, in the Island press, area there. So if you want to save some money, don't buy it from me on my active town's the bookshop right now. Use that 20% off bike city code, to get the book. But let's, let's talk a little bit more about the book and the inspiration.

00:04:56:21 - 00:05:13:15
John Simmerman
you know, let's do two things. Let's find out the inspiration for you. Tell a little bit, just briefly, a little bit of the story, the inspiration that brought you into doing this line of work and being passionate about this study, and then meld that right into the inspiration for the book.

00:05:13:21 - 00:05:41:09
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. So, I mean, the inspiration for this work goes all the way back to just my childhood. I'm originally from Cleveland, Ohio, but I, my family moved to Phenix, Arizona when I was young, and so I grew up in the the Phenix suburbs, and I spent a lot of time thinking about without maybe not explicitly thinking about it, but thinking a lot about sort of where I lived, what sort of options were available to me before I had a car.

00:05:41:09 - 00:06:10:06
Dan Piatkowski
That meant very, very few options, especially in the summer. And Phenix. And so, you know, growing up, I kind of had a lot of time to to read books and listen to music about interesting and exciting places that were not where I grew up. And so I've always been really fascinated by cities. Then I got older and I went to college and moved around, and I actually, found myself in New York City and I very briefly worked as a bicycle messenger.

00:06:10:08 - 00:06:12:13
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. And I was for real.

00:06:12:15 - 00:06:15:17
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Crazy.

00:06:15:19 - 00:06:22:16
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, I know. Well, no, at the time, I was too, too ignorant to be crazy. You know, I wasn't even, you know, like now.

00:06:22:22 - 00:06:43:11
John Simmerman
And I see in a, in a interjected there and made him past a judgment of saying you're crazy to do that. But I guess I have that stereotypical image that the bike messengers are like these crazy, you know, guys on, on one speeds, you know, fixed gear, you know, going at where you that type of messenger or were you more chill?

00:06:43:14 - 00:06:50:13
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. I was the whole nine yards I went. I really went for it. Yeah. No brakes. Everything just so, so stupid.

00:06:50:15 - 00:06:54:07
John Simmerman
I say I hold my ground. You're crazy.

00:06:54:09 - 00:07:14:29
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, and I mean, because of that, I didn't last long. you know, I was I was not good at it. I, was gotten some crashes, and, you know, I luckily escaped. Okay. But you know, what happened from all of that is it got me really excited about experiencing cities on bicycles. Right.

00:07:15:02 - 00:07:37:09
Dan Piatkowski
And, you know, then since that time, that was my early 20s. Cycling has just been sort of a passion that has followed my life and I combine that with my interest in cities and went into urban planning. And when I then went to pursue a PhD and actually become a researcher, I stuck with that. And I've always kind of followed that passion of thinking about how bicycles can change cities.

00:07:37:11 - 00:07:43:02
Dan Piatkowski
And that was really the beginning of the motivation for this book.

00:07:43:05 - 00:08:06:03
John Simmerman
Right. And and you just said something there that was really, you know, kind of profound. And it's actually on this very first graphic that we have here is, is that, you know, is it a Bicycle city? You know, question mark is making cities better with bicycles rather than for bikes. And that's a subtle little point that you just made there is that.

00:08:06:06 - 00:08:26:02
John Simmerman
And as part of the book, it's a theme that, you know, is is is part of the book is that we have this opportunity to make our cities better, more livable, more sustainable, using the tool that is the bicycle, rather than just making cities better for bicycles.

00:08:26:04 - 00:08:56:21
Dan Piatkowski
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and that's the kind of the thing that I spent a lot of time thinking about. And also, you know, hearing feedback, you know, from, from the public and from things and things like that about, you know, because of the bike messenger stereotype, because of, you know, the the mammal, the middle aged man in Lycra, because of the associations with environmentalism, bicycles kind of have a lot of baggage when it comes to, you know, how they can be used and how they can be perceived by the public.

00:08:56:21 - 00:09:22:29
Dan Piatkowski
And so I really wanted to kind of try to strip some of that baggage away from them as, as kind of this thing that represents a lot of things and just think about them as a utilitarian, as just a vehicle, you know? and what can we do with that? And, I in the book, I wanted to really present the case for here's all the evidence that we can we can get rid of all that baggage and change our cities rapidly with bicycles.

00:09:23:02 - 00:09:45:20
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And on screen here we can see that we've got, transport as a catalyst for urban change. And, you know, real quickly, I wanted to just kind of, you know, go through, the table of contents. And so you start off with an introduction of the Bicycle City, then chapter one is the pandemic and the bicycle boom.

00:09:45:22 - 00:10:19:26
John Simmerman
Chapter two, you go into e-bikes and changing the game. Chapter three is cargo bikes. Big, slow and revolutionary. Chapter four is micromobility. smaller, cheaper and more fun than cars. That's rather catchy. And then chapter five, just five chapters. is the urban bias for bicycling. And then of course, the the conclusion and then the epilog. We'll, we'll have an opportunity as we go through some of these images that you were so gracious to pass along in touch upon, kind of all of those main chapters.

00:10:19:28 - 00:10:34:01
John Simmerman
But let's let's focus in on what we have on screen right now, which is the transport. Transport as a catalyst for urban change. And talk about the relevance of this, you know, because this is a common theme in the book.

00:10:34:04 - 00:11:00:02
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. So this is kind of, the fundamental idea underlying the book, but also, you know, underlying all the work that I do as an urban planner and a lot of the work that I think a lot of other planners do is that, you know, we were we were grandfathered into a system of cities built around vehicles and, you know, because of things like induced demand and whatnot, you know, you build a city around cars, make it easy for people to drive.

00:11:00:02 - 00:11:17:12
Dan Piatkowski
They drive more. You build your roads bigger, you get more traffic. And, you know, and sort of it's this vicious cycle. And, you know, and I think this goes back to I think, you know, Susan Handy might have presented this in like the 1990s, this sort of an outline. But, you know, the outcomes from this are unsustainable, unhealthy, they're inequitable.

00:11:17:14 - 00:11:38:16
Dan Piatkowski
And particularly now as we're seeing the increasingly obvious effects of climate change, we really need to find ways to change our cities and do so rapidly. And so that's where we get to this second image of how can we bring our cities more to cities for people, you know, like, like Jeff Speck's walkable city. How can we get there?

00:11:38:19 - 00:12:00:17
Dan Piatkowski
And I think the way that we can go about it is by using bicycles, particularly in, in auto dependent places, because bicycles really kind of fit a lot of the same, a lot of the same use cases that are happening in car dependent places. And we can use them to, you know, flip that on its head and instead of becoming a vicious cycle, become a virtuous cycle.

00:12:00:19 - 00:12:01:26
Dan Piatkowski
You know.

00:12:01:28 - 00:12:23:04
John Simmerman
And this is the same graphic on screen now with the question, how do we get here quickly and efficiently? And then that really kind of goes into, you know, the theme that is part of the book is you're really leaning into and it's in the subtitle of the book is, Is Bicycle City riding the Bike boom to a brighter Future?

00:12:23:04 - 00:12:41:12
John Simmerman
And so, specifically what we're talking about is, is, you know, okay, how can you know, rapid change happen and that's what's on screen now. Is is rapid change possible? And then you're using Oslo, Norway, your new home base, as a case study.

00:12:41:14 - 00:13:12:16
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. So I guess this was to get back to your very first question, this was the other inspiration for writing the book, moving to Oslo and talking to people here, learning about what's happened in Oslo since around 2014, 2015. It's really inspiring, frankly. as this slide says, Oslo has gone from being a relative unknown in terms of urban sustainability to consistently being on top five lists of sustainable cities, globally.

00:13:12:18 - 00:13:33:03
Dan Piatkowski
The other really interesting thing about Oslo is they're trying to balance a lot of the same competing goals that a lot of American cities are particularly, you know, I grew up in Phenix and a lot of Western cities are really struggling to balance goals of continuing to grow and develop while also, you know, maintaining all those natural amenities that everybody moved there for in the first place.

00:13:33:05 - 00:13:49:07
Dan Piatkowski
And, you know, nobody's got it figured out. But I think Oslo is really doing a good job, and I think we can learn a lot for it. And as that last bullet point goes, you know, the first step is always the hardest. And I think that that's where, you know, the pandemic demonstrated that these things can be possible, that change is possible.

00:13:49:15 - 00:13:55:10
Dan Piatkowski
But, it's kind of up to us in each one of our communities to, to to jump at the chance and really get going.

00:13:55:13 - 00:14:02:27
John Simmerman
Yeah. And, and again, kind of expanding on that is it is a test bed for, for rapid change.

00:14:03:00 - 00:14:25:01
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. So this is a great timeline of everything that's happened. And you know, a lot of this this timeline isn't even that recent. It's 2015 to 2019. It's it's pre-pandemic stuff. You know in 2015 Oslo, they were able to sort of regain or gain control over their streets, which, you know, a lot of U.S. cities have this issue with city versus state dot kind of things.

00:14:25:04 - 00:14:44:16
Dan Piatkowski
In 2015, Oslo also implemented a bicycle plan, and they had some mode share targets as well as some traffic safety targets. And then in 2019, they initiated a car free livability program. And the goal of that, that that's what these two images are here is Oslo is divided into ring sort of the city of Oslo has ring roads.

00:14:44:16 - 00:15:21:15
Dan Piatkowski
There's the first ring, second ring and so on out. And they wanted to take that first ring and make it car free. and not really not quite car free, but certainly car light, very light. and it's, it's a, it's a really, really incredibly interesting program. They kind of used a lot of the lessons from tactical urbanism of change things rapidly keep it flexible, flexible, but also would then use these changes in a part of the city that very few people live in, to be an opportunity for people from the rest of the city to come in and check it out and say, look like woods.

00:15:21:16 - 00:15:45:07
Dan Piatkowski
Would this car for your car light formula work in my neighborhood or in my community? And so it kind of was a good way to introduce people to this idea without automatically, you know, running bulldozers, bulldozers down people's streets. And then some of the outcomes from all of these efforts, the first and most important is in 2019, Oslo managed to actually reach Vision Zero, I think.

00:15:45:07 - 00:16:07:27
Dan Piatkowski
I can't remember if Helsinki did it the same year. But there's, you know, not not a lot of cities, especially five years ago, were doing that that were able to get to that point. And still it's a pretty exclusive club. So that is it's pretty incredible. And, you know, it was done without a lot of new tech. It was done without, you know, an incredible amount of effort, outside of some smaller changes.

00:16:07:27 - 00:16:38:25
Dan Piatkowski
So change is really possible. And then those sorry, those last few bullet points are then kind of the outcomes and the outgrowths of, of getting the ball rolling and starting this process is now Oslo is, being awarded, you know, the European green capital by the European Commission, ranking highly on sustainability indices and also continuing to set targets, whether or not Oslo will be able to achieve these targets that are set for, you know, the next ten, 15, 20 years is an unknown.

00:16:38:25 - 00:16:43:23
Dan Piatkowski
But it's really important to continue to to push the envelope. And they're doing that.

00:16:43:25 - 00:17:17:07
John Simmerman
Yeah. And as I recall too, it's like in 2015 I believe that's when they sort of announced, the, the vision and the goal that, hey, we're, we're we're serious about this. We're going to start making, major changes. And as I recall, because I was actually in Paris at the time, there to document the very first car free, City Day, that Mayor Hilde Argo, put together in September of 2015.

00:17:17:10 - 00:17:45:22
John Simmerman
And, as I recall, it was that week when Oslo announced that, you know, they were going to be taking some bold steps to reduce the number of, internal combustion engines, you know, being allowed into the city. And so it sounds like 2015 was a really a pivotal point in time. was that something that was driven because of, you know, a change in political structure and will or something along those lines?

00:17:45:25 - 00:18:01:09
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, there was an election at that time which brought in, a lot more, you know, environmental and left leaning parties into control of the Oslo City Council. And so that was really one election was the catalyst for all of this change that has, really benefited the city.

00:18:01:11 - 00:18:26:04
John Simmerman
Okay. And and not that it should ever be like a right versus left, you know, type of thing. I mean, when we're talking about livability and streets that don't kill people and, you know, and systems that don't destroy the earth and in pollution, it you know, quality of life measures and livability measures shouldn't be a right versus left thing.

00:18:26:06 - 00:18:50:06
John Simmerman
But, you know, then again, you know, it. It is important to acknowledge the fact that elections do matter and bringing people into power that have a vision for, you know, creating more sustainable, more livable, more healthful places that also don't kill people is, you know, again, elections matter.

00:18:50:09 - 00:19:10:18
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and it's been really interesting here because politics are certainly different here. But people are the same everywhere, you know. But I think what's really interesting is because there have been you know, most of these changes that have happened have been really beneficial for everybody. Right? So it's really brought along the vast majority of voters.

00:19:10:18 - 00:19:27:03
Dan Piatkowski
And, you know, now the arguments are more about where to prioritize, how fast to do things, which things to focus on and how quickly, rather than sort of, kind of, I don't know, just just getting getting stopped before you even get started.

00:19:27:05 - 00:20:00:10
John Simmerman
Yeah. So this concept, though, of the bicycle as something that is, is not perceived as a toy, something that's not perceived as, just this recreational or sports, equipment type of orientation, which is an orientation that you talk about in the book, which is very much a part of the, the, the North American ethos. And you, you had mentioned and you talk about this in the book, that you had spent a fair amount of time there in Lincoln, Nebraska.

00:20:00:12 - 00:20:32:09
John Simmerman
And not to discount the fact that we can still use that as a platform to to leverage changing the opinions of what a bicycle can be. in other words, a community that supports and leans into the bicycle as recreation and the bicycle as sport and the bicycle as tourism opportunities, and especially like events. And you, you talk a little bit about gravel grinding and that whole, you know, trend that is happening.

00:20:32:11 - 00:20:58:18
John Simmerman
It sounds like it was really born out of the Nebraska, Lincoln, Nebraska area. There. We can leverage that. In other words, we can. We don't have to just say it's it's a dichotomous thing of this versus that. It can be both. It can be recreation. It can be sport. It can be, something that is is fun and at the same time be a tool that is then also leveraged in cities large and small.

00:20:58:18 - 00:21:28:03
John Simmerman
And you do take the time to talk a little bit about, you know, the difference between, you know, big, huge urban cities like, you know, like Paris, London, Oslo, New York, etc., but then also smaller communities as well as rural communities. So I just wanted to point that out as we we kind of shift gears and, and talk a little bit about this, this generalizable strategy for rapid change and how bicycles are a crucial first step.

00:21:28:03 - 00:21:34:17
John Simmerman
But they're not the final step. And it's really not about the bike. It's about creating a more livable city.

00:21:34:19 - 00:21:54:15
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You're right. It's, it's it's certainly not an either or. It's a both. And and. Yeah, absolutely. It was really important for me to include some of those examples that I use from Nebraska, because bikes are not just an urban thing, or they don't have to just be an urban thing, and they don't have to just be for, you know, liberals.

00:21:54:15 - 00:22:06:23
Dan Piatkowski
And they don't just have to be any one thing. You know, they really can be a lot of different things and they can do a lot of they can work well for different reasons and in different ways in a lot of different places.

00:22:06:26 - 00:22:32:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. And what's great too, and when we look at these three converging forces that, you know, took place as this quote unquote boom happened is, yes, it was kind of a bike boom that was stimulated from the pandemic, but it was also simultaneously the convergence of e-bikes and cargo bikes coming into and really hitting their stride. And we talked a lot about that in that first episode.

00:22:32:12 - 00:23:02:03
John Simmerman
And then also, you know, effective basically 2017, when micromobility and e-scooters and in, in sharing bike sharing schemes hit the scene that was also there. So as part of the pandemic and you talk about this in the book is that. Yeah, we had these three converging forces happening and then navigating those, talk a little bit more about that, and we'll continue with some of these images that will guide us through these forces.

00:23:02:10 - 00:23:24:02
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. So I think that when I first started working on the book, I really thought it was going to be a lot more about the pandemic. But, you know, sort of that first that first bullet was going to be the big deal. But it turned out that the e-bikes in micromobility are really the the much bigger story from the case studies that look that I looked at from the data that I saw, from the research that's out there.

00:23:24:04 - 00:23:38:03
Dan Piatkowski
And I think that part of that is actually because, you know, the I think e-bikes and micromobility have not taken off quite in the US the way they have in Europe and in Scandinavia. But I think that the potential is absolutely there.

00:23:38:05 - 00:24:09:18
John Simmerman
I think that I think you're right, not at that same scale, but I think you would be pretty impressed by the, the, the increase in the year over year. And I it'll be interesting to see some of the most recent statistics and studies. I think that the bike I mean we'll go to this one here, you know the pandemic and you know it, it was amazing to see the tremendous impact of, you know, what happened when we were all locked up and couldn't get out.

00:24:09:18 - 00:24:31:16
John Simmerman
And so when we could get out, what we did was we, you know, pulled the bike out of the garage. And if we didn't have a bike in the garage or we wanted a new bike, we bought them and we completely wiped out the shelves. You know, the bike shop that's literally walking distance from my house. You know, they went through a vast inventory of, of product and then of course, sold out.

00:24:31:16 - 00:24:56:29
John Simmerman
And then very quickly, because the supply chains were cut off, you couldn't get new bikes. And so it really, truly was a bike boom, completely unpredicted. you know, and so, yes, in the quote on screen here is is of course, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste, which was a famous quote from, Stanford economist Paul Romer.

00:24:57:01 - 00:25:40:08
John Simmerman
And so it was a catalyst. And Joe Warren, who's also been a former guest here on the podcast, is the the pandemic was a catalyst to create more sustainable transport options quickly. And I would even go on to say that not just sustainable, but it was also, you know, from a public health perspective, it was hugely, important in being able to create an opportunity for a little bit of mental health wellness in and and so and I also look at it from the standpoint and I've said this many, many times, I've probably talked about it on our first, interview, is that it was an opportunity to reframe how people view their streets.

00:25:40:10 - 00:26:01:05
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's sort of like, yeah. Like if you if people can break out of their habits, then they're a lot more likely to change in general. And I think that that's sort of the that aspect of the crisis being a terrible thing to waste is, I think, really important is the way that everybody's suddenly reevaluated how they were living.

00:26:01:07 - 00:26:26:23
Dan Piatkowski
They were forced to we were all forced to. And so our everything from when we ate breakfast and, you know, if we even left the house because of course, a lot of people still did. But then, you know what we did with our time throughout the entire day, you know, we kind of everything changed. And actually, you know, at the time I was I was still in Nebraska and I was looking at Strava data from all over the state of Nebraska and in rural places all over the place.

00:26:26:23 - 00:26:46:18
Dan Piatkowski
People were out and riding. So it really, you know, it didn't matter. You know, wherever you were, we saw this crazy spike in ridership. But yeah, then the most important thing from my perspective is that, you know, we have this this point in time where everybody starts looking at their window and saying, you know, how can this better serve?

00:26:46:18 - 00:27:07:28
Dan Piatkowski
How can the space in front of my house or wherever it is, better serve me and my community? And then all of these temporary changes happened because cities were, you know, cities were trying to catch up and they were trying to be responsive, and they were trying to listen to the public health people. They were trying to listen to their community members, and they tried a lot of different things.

00:27:08:01 - 00:27:27:01
Dan Piatkowski
And then the greatest thing, of course, to come out of this is, you know, now a concept like car free cities, a concept like 15 minute Cities is commonplace. You know, it's something we talk about all the time as something that is achievable. And I don't think we did that five years ago. And that I think is really, really important.

00:27:27:03 - 00:27:42:04
John Simmerman
Yeah. You know, very, very well said. And I think a part of that too, and you do cover this in the book is, acknowledging some of the cities, around the globe that did, you know, some of these, these.

00:27:42:04 - 00:27:42:20
Dan Piatkowski
Quick.

00:27:42:22 - 00:28:05:04
John Simmerman
Fixes and these quick changes in terms of, of, you know, changing what the, the streetscape was like so that people had an opportunity to, you know, get a breath of fresh air and do some, at distance socializing and things of that nature. and then you also talk a little bit about, you know, the fact that some of them stuck, some of those changes did stick in, in some of the cities.

00:28:05:04 - 00:28:36:15
John Simmerman
The majority of them did not. The majority of them sort of, you know, they came down, you know, as, as the, the, the quote unquote pandemic and the lockdown receded. And, and obviously, you know, you know, through the, you know, the, I don't want to call it magic, but through the benefit of science, and medicine, we were able to get, you know, our, our vaccines, you know, in place and, and, you know, and obviously the we're now at a much better place.

00:28:36:15 - 00:29:21:08
John Simmerman
And I don't want to under, I don't want to make light of the fact that the pandemic was a devastating thing that took place. And, you know, over a million people in the United States, you know, died. And I don't know what the number is globally. and so because of, you know, the fact that we did have the ability to quickly mobilize and, and get a vaccine in place, we didn't have a repeat of, you know, our most recent past pandemic that, you know, raged on for, you know, three plus years and, and really caused an amazing amount of damage and hardship, globally, I think caused the entire global population

00:29:21:08 - 00:29:35:14
John Simmerman
to dip by a huge but so and I am talking about, you know, the quote unquote Spanish flu that, that, you know, happened back there. so anyways, on to brighter things. We also have e-bikes changing the game.

00:29:35:16 - 00:29:51:15
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. Yeah. So. Right. Well, I mean, you know, to to first, kind of piggyback on what you were just saying, you know. Yeah. You know, I, I wanted to talk about the pandemic bike boom because there was sort of, I felt a responsibility to actually find the things that we, we can learn and can change based on that.

00:29:51:15 - 00:30:10:04
Dan Piatkowski
And, you know, and I also, even though a lot of those pandemic street street experiments didn't stick around, I don't know that that's a failure. You know, I mean, it's it's things were certainly tried and that is now in the collective memory. And I think that the challenge will will now be to, to reinstate those or sort of find a catalyst to do so.

00:30:10:06 - 00:30:45:23
Dan Piatkowski
But yeah. So then to, to move on to e-bikes this I, I like this picture because it's, it's Mercedes trying to do an e-bike and they actually they marketed alongside their F1 racing cars as if these are these, you know, like super high end, you know, racing machines, which is fine. the thing that that is funny to me about it is that, you know, obviously if automakers are nervous and if automakers are trying to get in on the game, then the game is changing and they're seeing it and they're they're scared.

00:30:45:26 - 00:31:16:05
Dan Piatkowski
And I, I looked around online and I feel like it's, you know, somewhere between 15 and 20 different automakers are working on some variation of an e-bike, and some of them are kind of silly, like, you know, Hummer branded e-bikes with big, weird tires and stuff like that. But some of them are, you know, more legitimate. But yeah, it speaks to the fact that everyone I talked to for this book said e-bikes are changing the game, and all of the all of the data certainly suggests that.

00:31:16:05 - 00:31:49:02
Dan Piatkowski
And so we have these, these sites for, for different increases in sales globally and in Germany. And I think they were I in the book, I put a lot more American statistics in there. But the biggest point is that e-bikes are changing the game because they're becoming a real car replacement for a lot of people in a lot of situations that previously bicycles sort of, you know, standard bicycles have not been and that's, that's that's where the potential really comes in for changing cities.

00:31:49:05 - 00:32:21:24
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And I love the fact that that you kind of leaned in to, to this little theme here, which is, you know, e-bikes, building an army of bike advocates, question mark, because I think that's that's a really important point, is that if we're actually able to attract new people, to get out on a bike because it's fundamentally not just, an energized regular bike, it's something fundamentally different.

00:32:21:24 - 00:32:35:15
John Simmerman
And you're getting new people out than maybe you were able to, you know, energize new people as, as you say in the first point, energizing a broader coalition of riders demanding change.

00:32:35:18 - 00:33:01:07
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. And this is something that, I believe David Zipper said this in, an article for maybe Slate or Bloomberg. I can't recall exactly. But he brought up this idea of e-bikes, as you said. You know, they're they're bringing more people out and they're making an army of bike advocates. And, you know, I would go on further and say that, it's actually just sort of creating a larger group of people who want community change in general.

00:33:01:09 - 00:33:14:27
Dan Piatkowski
And to go with that trend. Bicycles are the catalyst for people to get out and experience their cities in different ways, to experience their communities and their commutes in different ways, and then demand change accordingly.

00:33:15:00 - 00:33:44:26
John Simmerman
I'm glad that you said it in that way too, because again, if it's it's if it's not really about the bike, you know, if it's really about being able to experience the city and being able to get from A to B and, and maybe have some fun while doing it, then then it's then again, it's more about, are we able to create an environment where that as possible and it's less about fetishizing it and it being about this something that's quote unquote cool.

00:33:44:29 - 00:33:59:26
John Simmerman
So yeah. But then because you just mentioned something interesting about e-bikes, is that, that ability to maybe replace some car trips, this is where we really start to see things happening.

00:33:59:29 - 00:34:24:21
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, yeah. And so for as much as e-bikes are the, the one of the bigger stories of kind of the the way bicycles can change cities, cargo bikes are the story. They're just it's difficult to understate their importance in every aspect of hopefully moving our cities to much better, more efficient and more sustainable and more fun forms of transportation.

00:34:24:24 - 00:34:53:27
Dan Piatkowski
So yeah, a big, slow and revolutionary is is absolutely it. And not even that slow with electrification. Cargo bikes are quick and you know, and I think prior to electrification or the availability of electric motors, cargo bikes were more of a niche item. But now they're just they're so functional. And I think they're really taking off. And especially looking at sales figures in the US, they are certainly taking off in the US.

00:34:54:00 - 00:35:16:22
Dan Piatkowski
And this goes to the point of there's so many designs, so many use cases, and there's the personal mobility, personal mobility side, as well as the urban freight and delivery side. And you know, both of those are both of those trends with cargo bikes have just started. And I think the the potential is really extremely I don't even know what to say.

00:35:16:22 - 00:35:18:05
Dan Piatkowski
It's it's revolutionary.

00:35:18:09 - 00:35:42:21
John Simmerman
So yeah. Yeah. And earlier, you know, you talked a little bit about the, you know, the challenge that we have here in North America especially, but it's not exclusive to North America. plenty of other places around the globe have followed, the suburban sort of context and land use pattern, that really post-World War II took off.

00:35:42:24 - 00:35:57:18
John Simmerman
And, yeah, cargo bikes could be especially electric assist. Cargo bikes could really be something that is a possibility. Talk a little bit about, you know, this whole aspect of of trading the city for the suburbs.

00:35:57:20 - 00:36:24:03
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean it's cities really are not they're not really made for kids. You know, they're not really. The idea of 8 to 80 cities is a great idea, but the reality is that cities are just they're, you know, they tend to be made for able bodied people without kids. And so and there's, you know, then there's lots of reasons why, if you're a, you know, a young family starting out, you have your apartment in the city or whatever.

00:36:24:03 - 00:36:46:09
Dan Piatkowski
There's a lot of reasons why you might consider moving out to the suburbs. One of them is certainly transportation that goes hand in hand with the cost of housing that goes hand in hand with the difficulty of just all the stuff you have to carry when you suddenly have, little kids whose lives depend on you and you need, you know, all the different things that you need.

00:36:46:11 - 00:37:09:03
Dan Piatkowski
And then to be reliant on a bus schedule is is just a really tall order. It's a big ask. So, you know, I, I talked to a, the founder of a company here that I think we'll talk about on the next slide. and she was really interested in trying to figure out how to find ways to keep families in cities by addressing the transportation issue.

00:37:09:05 - 00:37:31:05
Dan Piatkowski
Oh, yeah. But before we talk about this, you know, I think it's a I like to think about it as this Faustian bargain, because to this Faustian bargain of treating the city for the suburbs, if you're a young family, the character, the primary characteristic of a deal with the devil is that whatever you trade with, trade, your trade things for, it's never it's always worth more than what you get back, right?

00:37:31:11 - 00:37:53:14
Dan Piatkowski
Like you, you never actually get something better despite, you know, all the promises made in this Faustian bargain. And that, of course, is the biggest problem of moving to the suburbs is you're sort of enticed by more space for less money, the ability to take for your kids and all the stuff in the car and get to all of these places.

00:37:53:16 - 00:38:11:20
Dan Piatkowski
But then what you get is you spend your whole life in the car and you lose all of the different things that are that the the benefits of living in cities, not only the neighbors and the social capital capital you've built up, but all the access to all of these exciting things that kids can and should enjoy.

00:38:11:22 - 00:38:13:26
Dan Piatkowski
But we don't really design or plan for.

00:38:13:29 - 00:38:38:06
John Simmerman
So, yeah, you know, and, I'm in have a, an upcoming episode with Marinovich, who is a mom in Manhattan. and she's, she goes by cargo bike mom, I think, is mama or something like that. and, and we'll talk a little bit about how cargo bikes have really opened up her world as, as a parent in a city.

00:38:38:06 - 00:39:08:20
John Simmerman
And then, you know, how she navigates some of the, the challenges of what that means. Because, again, not all cities are set up for being able to make that happen, you know, but it's something that, you know, for for those parents that or are adamant that they want to raise their children within a city, it is possible. But there's many things that cities could be doing to make it easier on those parents to be able to do so.

00:39:08:22 - 00:39:15:03
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. And those things that the cities can be doing are usually really cheap, you know, space, relatively.

00:39:15:03 - 00:39:25:18
John Simmerman
Speaking. I mean, when we look at, yeah, relatively speaking, when we look at how much money, how many trillions of dollars we throw in the automobile infrastructure, heck yeah, it's pennies on the dollar.

00:39:25:21 - 00:39:27:11
Dan Piatkowski
Exactly, exactly.

00:39:27:13 - 00:39:31:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. All right, let's get let's get into why we bikes.

00:39:31:09 - 00:39:57:12
Dan Piatkowski
So we bikes. I increasingly see them everywhere. And it's a great thing. So, one of the biggest challenges with getting cargo bikes to people who could use them is the cost. And cities are across the board, I think cities, you know, Oslo just started this. But, you know, I know Denver made headlines doing incentive programs. Cities are doing incentive programs to get cargo bikes to people who could use them.

00:39:57:12 - 00:40:19:27
Dan Piatkowski
And it's fantastic because that's that's the primary barrier. And so what we has been doing is they have a cargo bike leasing service where, you know, you I think, you know, there's sort of a minimum amount of time that you lease the bike, but you lease it all is a complete package. All the components, everything. You know, the all the racks you need, all the child seats you need, whatever it might be.

00:40:19:29 - 00:40:41:23
Dan Piatkowski
And it's just a monthly fee and you're done. And that is hugely effective at getting people to try that sort of cargo bike lifestyle. And it's a much easier ask to say, hey, pay a monthly fee and try this out instead of dropped thousands of dollars on something that you might decide you hate and don't want to use.

00:40:41:25 - 00:41:02:08
Dan Piatkowski
And then, yeah, so then this second bullet point is so important because it's not only that, cargo bikes are not only beneficial for the people who could use them and the families who could use them, but they're beneficial for the entire city. You're getting traffic off the streets. You know, you're getting lines of cars at pick up and drop off off the streets.

00:41:02:11 - 00:41:08:00
Dan Piatkowski
And you're also reducing that demand for suburban living, which is something that's really important.

00:41:08:03 - 00:41:55:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. You know, you mentioned it earlier and and we've got a nice little photo here of, of Yost, another guest on the podcast. but yeah, freight huge. And so, especially for, for, for denser cities. I mean, this is a huge problem in terms of managing, you know, freight delivery. And, when you talk about an environment that's not made for all sudden throwing massive numbers of box trucks to try to, to deal with the fact that so many people are getting deliveries, you know, to their offices and to their, you know, apartments in their condos, etc., etc., etc..

00:41:55:27 - 00:42:09:07
John Simmerman
This is huge. I mean, and in just talks about this, in that my episode with him is he he really looks at this this decade is the decade of the cargo bike.

00:42:09:09 - 00:42:37:18
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, yeah, yours is great. And you introduced us and so, yeah. So I have you to thank for that. and I think he's absolutely right, you know, that the cargo bike is this technology that's perfectly positioned at a time and a place to really transform cities. And I think actually some of the things you're talking about of all of these vehicles, all of these delivery vehicles and in city streets and everything, you know, that's that that's something that was becoming worse and worse.

00:42:37:20 - 00:43:10:05
Dan Piatkowski
But the pandemic really drew city's attention to it, because suddenly the only thing on streets was a delivery vehicle. Or it could be, you know, someone doing food delivery or someone, you know, delivering medicine or whatever it might be. But people delivering goods and services became the primary traffic on streets, and that level of traffic has been only, you know, only increasing because so many, so many places and so many businesses got really good at doing delivery and meeting their customer's needs remotely.

00:43:10:05 - 00:43:36:21
Dan Piatkowski
So now that we are filling up our streets again, or we have filled up our streets again, what do we do with all these competing use cases? And yeah, those those huge box trucks are a problem for so many reasons. Environmental safety, traffic, all of the above. And cargo bikes are really poised to make a lot of progress in getting us away from having our streets crowded with delivery trucks.

00:43:36:24 - 00:44:01:01
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And yours, lives in Nijmegen, there in the Netherlands. And the Netherlands is experiencing a big part of this. They are encouraging more and more freight to be delivered by cargo bike. And his quote here is that if cargo bikes replace vans on roads, they should replace the space on road as well. And that's exactly what the Dutch are experiencing and feeling.

00:44:01:01 - 00:44:27:10
John Simmerman
Is that the the bicycle cycle paths, you know, the cycle paths are so crowded as it is just with everybody going about their business, trying to, you know, get to their meaningful destinations when you throw in the freight delivery vehicles, you know, cargo bikes in it as well, you really understand just how undersized our cycle network facilities are.

00:44:27:18 - 00:44:46:04
John Simmerman
And so you talk about this in the book, is that we need to start having that discussion of, you know, maybe, you know, it needs to completely expand. Maybe we need a much, much bigger, or much more space available to, bikes, e-bikes, cargo bikes, etc..

00:44:46:11 - 00:45:08:21
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's so it's increasingly obvious in so many places that bike infrastructure was an afterthought on our roads. And all of this increasing traffic is now making this making it clear that that this needs to change. And, you know, ideally, we reach a future point at which there our primary consideration is moving people by non auto modes.

00:45:08:28 - 00:45:23:24
Dan Piatkowski
And then the secondary consideration is for everyone who needs a car. How can we make sure that they're still accommodated by the system. But first and foremost we need to be prioritizing all of these more sustainable and more efficient modes.

00:45:23:27 - 00:45:47:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. And speaking of which, then we throw shared and micromobility. options into the mix. also putting pressure on the those same cycle paths as well as, as we see in the case of the, the lime scooters here on the right image, also taking up some of the, you know, pedestrian realm and the sidewalk space.

00:45:47:11 - 00:46:09:01
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, they're putting pressure on every aspect of the transportation system. I think that it's, it's a it can be a frustrating thing, but I think it's, it's been a long time coming, and I think it's a it's this is the best opportunity to address all the things that have been occurring. When I started working on this chapter, I thought I was going to talk a lot more about Bike Share, but that really didn't happen.

00:46:09:03 - 00:46:30:24
Dan Piatkowski
The story with Bike Share is really that if you electrify your bike share fleet, that's great. It makes it even more effective. That's the most important thing. But yeah, the issue of micromobility is I think what really matters for transitioning our cities rapidly. So yeah, in the book I trace the evolution of e-scooters on streets, starting with this.

00:46:30:27 - 00:46:56:12
Dan Piatkowski
The Silicon Valley move fast and break things style of throwing cargo bike, arts, throwing cargo bike, sorry, throwing e-scooters on the streets and just sort of asking forgiveness rather than permission and causing a lot of problems, for themselves and for city streets as well. But I think what's happened because of that is now there's a lot of really valuable lessons that we can take when it comes to policy moving forward.

00:46:56:14 - 00:46:59:10
Dan Piatkowski
and then also how we think about our streets.

00:46:59:12 - 00:47:11:18
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And you've got to Oslo is an example of a testbed. And again, a case study in terms of how to deal with this and balancing the pros and cons.

00:47:11:21 - 00:47:45:12
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, Oslo has been an interesting case study because, you know, some cities, some cities have banned scooters outright, which you know, is fine. Some cities have been pretty lax in how they've been dealing with them. But Oslo has gone pretty aggressively into trying to regulate scooters. So they do things like regulate the top speed, the hours of operation, the users in terms of mostly age limits, but also, then usage in terms of really, strict penalties for like riding a scooter if you have alcohol in your system, things like that.

00:47:45:14 - 00:48:16:07
Dan Piatkowski
So, so it's a pretty highly controlled mode of transportation. And then on top of that, they have decided to control the total fleet size that operators can have throughout the city and also the distribution of that fleet. They've divided the city up into I think it's four areas. And the the scooters have to be divided, you know, have to be distributed, I think, evenly or somewhat evenly across all of these areas so that there's some sort of an equity dimension included.

00:48:16:15 - 00:48:22:01
Dan Piatkowski
And all the scooters just don't end up, you know, crowding one spot in the city center.

00:48:22:04 - 00:48:57:16
John Simmerman
Yeah. It's been interesting, you know, sort of watching, observing the micromobility, the shared scooter, experience. And as time has gone by and we see some of the weakest players, you know, drop out of the market, it's it's kind of correcting itself. And you see, you know, a handful of survivors still in operation. And so it's nowhere near the the absolute chaos that it was in the beginning, in the early days.

00:48:57:16 - 00:49:35:14
John Simmerman
But it'll be really, really interesting to see, you know, the how things, you know, shape up in the next five years. I mean, they've been around for about that now. And so it'll it'll be really, really interesting I think to see okay, who are the survivors and what are the, you know, the management cases. Because ultimately when you really look at it, that's been the biggest pain points for most cities is how do we manage the chaos, you know, that this, you know, has had I mean, from the very beginning, I love the fact that, again, just like with e-bikes, like we said earlier, you know, even more potential stakeholders and potential advocates for

00:49:35:14 - 00:50:00:17
John Simmerman
safer streets. Same thing with micromobility. I mean, yeah, if a, if a, you know, a young person is jumping on a scooter to get from one place to the next place to meet up with friends, etc., you know, they they want they deserve to have safe street to be able to, to, to ride upon or a bike lane or whatever, a mobility lane maybe don't even call them bike lanes anyway anymore.

00:50:00:17 - 00:50:03:24
John Simmerman
Maybe there's some sort of active mobility lane. Yeah.

00:50:03:27 - 00:50:22:27
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. And I mean, you know, that's in some ways that can be indicative of a gap in the transport system. You know, in other ways it can just be indicative of, yeah, this, this here, this idea of, hey, this is a fun thing to do. It's a cool way to experience my city, a cool new way to do so.

00:50:22:29 - 00:50:47:12
Dan Piatkowski
yeah. So as I was researching this chapter, I came across a lot of research on the concept of gamification. and it's applied all over the place. But, in terms of how it's applied to cities, it's thinking about ways in which we can take a space that is designed in one way and experience it in a different way, gamify it a little bit to have a different experience on it.

00:50:47:14 - 00:51:09:01
Dan Piatkowski
And you know, whether or not whether or not in five years e-scooters are still around. I think e-scooters are important because they are the next step of different ways people are experiencing their city and gamifying it. And, you know, in the book I talk about this history of interlopers into urban spaces and maybe the first well, maybe the first was the bicycle.

00:51:09:01 - 00:51:11:01
Dan Piatkowski
Right. But, you know, it's so in the 19.

00:51:11:02 - 00:51:33:03
John Simmerman
So wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Right. Well, if you're going to go down that road, we're going to look, it's like I, you know, the bicycle probably was the first interloper, you know, interloper in an environment which at the time was, people mostly walking and, getting around by streetcars, etc., then the bicycle.

00:51:33:10 - 00:51:34:18
Dan Piatkowski
Person buggy or something.

00:51:34:20 - 00:51:57:25
John Simmerman
Exactly. And then the bicycle hit the scene and and there was all sorts of, you know, the same type of trauma that was going on with e-scooters, happened with bicycles when they first at the scene. And, and then along came the car and the same thing happened. They were the interlopers then at that time. So. Yes. So so continue I look at this and I look at the person on the skateboard and I go, yeah, I relate to that.

00:51:57:25 - 00:52:18:21
John Simmerman
You know, I'm a kid from the 1960s. And so I can totally relate to the fact that, you know, especially in California, in Southern California, you know, the the skateboarder image and the skateboarders and, and and them just trying to they were seen as interlopers, interlopers on the urban space.

00:52:18:23 - 00:52:46:10
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. So maybe we should talk about it in terms of like that, that first slide of the two different cycles of urban change, you know, sort of in a post car city situation, we have these interlopers into urban spaces to say, hey, look, maybe our cities can be for more than just cars. And yeah, so in Southern California in, the early 70s, I suppose, skateboards were really the first thing to do this.

00:52:46:10 - 00:53:08:23
Dan Piatkowski
It's really interesting at the time, skateboarding, you know, it it also took off because there was a really there was a giant drought in California. And so there were all of these empty swimming pools just begging to be used for something. so that did a lot to help skateboarding take off and gain popularity. But yeah, you know, as you said, you're part of this generation.

00:53:08:23 - 00:53:31:14
Dan Piatkowski
There's a whole generation of people. And then subsequent subsequent generations, you know, myself included, of being out on places that are made for cars on a skateboard and saying, wow, like, this place can be different. And yeah, and then now we're at this point where you add the growth of micro-mobility, the growth of bicycles, e bicycles, e cargo bicycles.

00:53:31:16 - 00:53:48:22
Dan Piatkowski
So many people are getting out and it's, it's back to that army of, of, bike lane advocates thing. You know, people are thinking a lot more about what their cities can be, can be for and how they can be used and, and maybe some of the, the limitations of what we've been grandfathered into.

00:53:48:25 - 00:53:56:17
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about the the context and the definition of the word game. Gamify.

00:53:56:20 - 00:54:20:21
Dan Piatkowski
yeah. So actually that's I don't recall off the top of my head where it came from, you know, now it's applied a lot to things like virtual reality or like augmented reality kind of situation, kind of stuff like that. But the idea behind gamify is simply to find a way to, or not find a way to, but to experience your city in a fun and different in a game like way.

00:54:20:23 - 00:54:51:27
Dan Piatkowski
that is, you know, distinct from the way we typically think about and plan for transport, which is really boring and focused on this idea of, well, we all are sort of, you know, automatons who only think in terms of getting somewhere quickly and cheaply. And so, you know, we sort of design our cities according to that. But of course, that's, you know, that ignores so much of human experience and of when you leave the house every day, what you value about what you experience.

00:54:51:27 - 00:55:11:15
Dan Piatkowski
And, you know, it's so it's the kind of thing where if I ride my kids to school on our cargo bike, I don't sit there spending the whole time thinking eco or cargo bikes are great. I think, wow, I'm having this fun conversation with my kids and you know, the weather's nice and everything else. It happens that the bike allowed that process to occur.

00:55:11:17 - 00:55:34:09
John Simmerman
Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I'm glad that that we took the time to to talk a little bit more about that definition of it, because when I see this image of, of the, the family, using the cargo bike and that experience that takes place in that environment is, is just so rich, I mean it. You see the mom with a huge smile on her face.

00:55:34:09 - 00:55:58:16
John Simmerman
The kids eat it. It makes that experience that getting from a to be something more than just what our typical default is, which is to be as fast as possible, most efficient as possible. We got a go go go go go. It's like no, I mean let's let's take some time to get some breeze on our face, look at things.

00:55:58:16 - 00:56:17:24
John Simmerman
You know, kids have that opportunity to, you know, interact with their environment. They'll point things out to their parents as they're riding. It's I, I wanted to make sure that we didn't belittle the fact that, you know, gamification is is meaning that, oh, this is just all fun and games. It kind of is a little bit of all fun and games.

00:56:17:24 - 00:56:37:20
John Simmerman
It's like, but you to your point, changing our relationship with our environment so that, you know, there is a little bit of, of, I think quality of life, enhanced quality of life in that journey. It's not just about getting there as fast as possible.

00:56:37:23 - 00:57:00:07
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, yeah, like and that and that's I think that's the other thing is like the fun and games part is kind of the point of life, right. Like the point of life shouldn't be always getting to work as fast as you possibly can. The point of life would be to actually enjoy it. And and so yeah, I think that that's another thing that we've certainly lost sight of in urban planning historically is just the value of the just positive qualitative experience.

00:57:00:12 - 00:57:11:04
Dan Piatkowski
Qualitatively positive experiences in our cities. And we can have that and we should have that. And that is a benefit that that, you know, we all can get to pretty rapidly.

00:57:11:06 - 00:57:46:04
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I've talked about this before on the channel is there's a default assumption when it comes to how we approach getting from from point A to point B is that it's all about time. It's all about whatever's the fastest and most efficient. And I've pointed out that, you know, depending on my the context of the situation, you know, especially if you're a parent with children, maybe it's not the fastest route, maybe it's the more beautiful route or the more whimsical route or, you know, you get what I'm saying, or the safest route.

00:57:46:07 - 00:58:00:07
John Simmerman
And so there is a challenge, I think, in terms of even how we relate to our environments and, being able to appreciate that it's more than just about efficiency.

00:58:00:10 - 00:58:15:27
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, so that's something that when I was interviewing people about e-bikes, one of the things that came up is the ways in which e-bikes are really good, because a lot of cities have some good bike infrastructure, but it's not very well connected, and it doesn't necessarily take them to where they need to go.

00:58:15:29 - 00:58:41:15
Dan Piatkowski
So if you can, you know, take some of the some of the physical strain out of a longer trip to use those, those more attractive, the more attractive bike infrastructure that's out there that's going to make people ride more. And so, so I think that that's a really valuable aspect of the e-bikes in general. I think the other thing is, what was I going to say about, the time and the drudgery?

00:58:41:15 - 00:59:07:29
Dan Piatkowski
Oh, yeah. So the other thing that I keep thinking about and, and another reason I, I keep framing the book in terms of, you know, how bicycles can help cities versus how we can make cities into bicycle cities is because, you know, my daily commute here in Oslo, I live in a pretty walkable place. Most of the time I prefer to leave the bike and walk or, you know, take the bus.

00:59:08:02 - 00:59:24:10
Dan Piatkowski
I love having the bike as an option, but it's not the most important thing. And it's not the the thing that, you know, I leave my house and want to do. I spent a lot of time riding bikes in cities in the US that have been that don't have great infrastructure, and I'm kind of tired of fighting with cars.

00:59:24:12 - 00:59:45:18
Dan Piatkowski
So sometimes I don't want to do that. And like the great example about Oslo is they started with a bike plan and a safety strategy that has then made it possible for the transit system to get better, for the city to get easier and better for walking. so that's kind of the one of the other points that I think is really valuable.

00:59:45:20 - 01:00:07:29
John Simmerman
And this brings us back around to the the context of distances and proximity. You are within walking distance to be able to, to, to get to, you know, your place of work. And so it's one of those situations where at some point in time you're like, oh yeah, if I like go out of my way, I get, get the bike out, take the bike.

01:00:07:29 - 01:00:34:25
John Simmerman
It's like, boom, I'm already there. It's not even like, okay, I could I should have just walked. So, and that's that's a good problem to have. Is that a, your proximity is such as that walking is a legitimate choice as part of those mobility options. And, and I think that that's kind of what is also part of this slide here, where the Micro-mobility party is growing beyond the bike lane.

01:00:34:25 - 01:00:50:12
John Simmerman
How will the cities respond? Is that cities that really lean into like creating a plethora of mobility choices, I think are really helping the community out and setting themselves up for success for the future.

01:00:50:14 - 01:01:08:02
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, I totally agree. You know, it's, when you have more people out on streets, you know, then you can you can have businesses that, that are, that, you know, make more money and can be successful and they can be local and they can support their communities. Then you can also have streets that are safer as well.

01:01:08:02 - 01:01:33:05
Dan Piatkowski
You know, sort of the more people that are out, regardless of the mode, the better the places become. It's kind of this and then it's that positive feedback loop. But I think, yeah, getting back to what we were talking about earlier, it's it really is an open question right now how cities are going to respond. And, you know, you see a lot of a lot of Dutch cities that are, you know, kind of turning, turning spaces into just these very low speed shared spaces.

01:01:33:08 - 01:01:59:20
Dan Piatkowski
But I think it's just it's so fascinating and it's it's such a cool space to experience. But, you know, it'll be interesting to see if cities, you know, what cities are holdouts in terms of letting the bike lane continue to overflow. and then also have be okay with scooters and pedestrians having conflicts all the time. And, and then what cities are really going to push the envelope and use this as an opportunity to dramatically change?

01:01:59:22 - 01:02:00:23
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah.

01:02:00:26 - 01:02:14:05
John Simmerman
So in terms of these next steps in the phase one and phase two, the pilot projects, we've we've talked a little bit about that already and all that. What do you mean by phase two flipping the script outside to in.

01:02:14:12 - 01:02:34:08
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. So, you know, we're we're at a point where a lot of places are doing a lot of really great things. And I think that we we should certainly celebrate that as we then continue to push the envelope, you know, so getting back to the beginning of our conversation, the idea of a car free street is, is pretty normal in a lot of places.

01:02:34:08 - 01:03:04:20
Dan Piatkowski
Now. 15 minute cities is something that cities are currently working to achieve and and getting close to. So we're lucky in the sense that we have a lot of pilot projects and a lot of early efforts to really transform places into what we've been talking about as just sort of better places for everyone. But then now the issue is how do we expand that into the the city scale and how do we extend that, expand that to, smaller towns and other and you know, rural areas?

01:03:04:25 - 01:03:30:22
Dan Piatkowski
How do we expand that beyond just these islands of urbanism? And, and I say in, in parentheses and privilege because, you know, it's no secret that the most walkable places in the US are also the least affordable places. And so, you know, so how do we start taking some of these lessons from the the best case scenario spots and then applying them to everyone else who could certainly benefit to a much greater degree from them?

01:03:30:25 - 01:03:41:14
John Simmerman
Yeah. And so you also have here for next steps looking at regional access and equity, which you were just referencing there.

01:03:41:16 - 01:04:00:24
Dan Piatkowski
yeah. And you know, so that's, that's the key is moving beyond the, the islands of urbanism and moving to, some suburbs or exurbs, whatever you want to call them. moving to the areas where a lot of people are living because they're the most affordable, but also the least accessible, the, you know, the lowest access to destinations.

01:04:00:27 - 01:04:17:28
Dan Piatkowski
and so how do you do that? Well, you know, you can build you can always build better bike infrastructure. And with e-bikes, we're now at a point where even commuting regionally with an e-bike is really doable. And it's not difficult. And it's a lot cheaper than driving and dealing with, you know, all the costs that go along with that.

01:04:18:01 - 01:04:52:02
Dan Piatkowski
But that said, it's also the start to then creating really lasting change and building great, public transport systems and transit oriented development around those systems. And that's how we kind of enshrine this in a in a larger process of making better cities in general. Yeah, yeah. And so alongside that, was getting to the idea of, you know, it's, we we have to remember that, we can't what we care about is the, you know, the quote that I go back to a lot that's a triangle quote.

01:04:52:05 - 01:05:10:08
Dan Piatkowski
If we're going to be making our cities better, and particularly if we're going to be trying to make them more equitable, we need to actually be measuring things in an appropriate way. And I use my chair in a lot of my research, and a lot of the goals around making our cities better are around modes, share of the overall city.

01:05:10:08 - 01:05:37:04
Dan Piatkowski
So you have a pie chart and you say that you have 100% of trips and they're divided by, you know, these different modes of transportation changing that is fantastic, but it's not a measure of transport equity. And that's something that, you know, cities, the cities, but also, you know, states and nationally, we need to be really talking about, how we measure equity and trying to a lot of places we just don't even measure it.

01:05:37:04 - 01:06:14:05
Dan Piatkowski
But we have to talk about actually measuring equity if we're going to make our cities better for everybody. And then I, you know, I say that there's there's no silver bullet with this. And and it's true. You know, the reason we don't often measure equity is because it's not something simple to measure, like mode share. You know, it involves reaching out to communities and doing focus groups and surveys, ethnographic studies, but it also involves planning from the beginning with communities thinking about, where we're going to initiate different, different plans for our city streets, you know, that begins by talking to communities and asking, is this something you even want or need?

01:06:14:05 - 01:06:26:04
Dan Piatkowski
What do you want? What do you need? You know, as, as as governments and as urban planners, we need to actually be answering to our constituents as opposed to just, you know, responding to the loudest voice in the room.

01:06:26:06 - 01:06:32:19
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, I hear you there. That brings us back to where we started full circle.

01:06:32:22 - 01:06:36:01
Dan Piatkowski
So yeah, hopefully, you know, it's easy three steps and we got it.

01:06:36:03 - 01:07:01:23
John Simmerman
Yeah. Right. To wrap us up here, what haven't we, discussed yet today that you'd like people to to know about this fabulous book, folks. Again, pick up bike. Bicycle city. What final thoughts? you know, would you like to leave the folks with, about the book and encourage them to, pick it up?

01:07:01:25 - 01:07:23:16
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. You know, I think one of the first things would be, that we've made a lot of progress already. I, I interviewed an old friend and mentor, Norman Garrick, who was, professor emeritus from University of Connecticut. And the first thing he talked about as lessons from bike advocacy from the last couple decades is how incredibly successful it has been.

01:07:23:18 - 01:07:43:27
Dan Piatkowski
And I think that that's it's something that I had forgotten over the course of spending a lot of time, getting frustrated that, things weren't changing as fast as I hoped that they would. But, you know, we've we've made a lot of great progress. We've we've put in place a lot of, a lot of important steps and laid the foundations and the groundwork for changing our communities.

01:07:43:29 - 01:08:16:27
Dan Piatkowski
We have all the information we need, and we just kind of need to go for it. So again, like the first step is the hardest, but, then I think, you know, the other thing is that it's, it's a process. it's not a goal. In the book, I talk a little bit about the idea of utopia and utopian cities, and I kind of set that against some of the utopian ideas that come out of Silicon Valley and some of the, like, the tech ideas of we'll just kind of magically have better cities, you know, we're not going to magically become a perfect city or a any city is not going to magically become

01:08:16:27 - 01:08:35:11
Dan Piatkowski
perfect. But what we can do is incrementally build towards better and always face the next problem in the next challenge and continue to build towards something better. And I think that that's probably something that, keeps me getting up in the morning and working on this. Yeah.

01:08:35:13 - 01:09:05:04
John Simmerman
On the very last page of your book, when you're sort of wrapping things up in the epilog, you bring up the point that, you know, too often sustainability is being framed as less than we need to do less of this. And we do do do fewer things like this. And the note that I put up in, in, in my, you know, edge right over here, you know, up in the, in the thing was, yeah, it's like, let's not focus on what we can't do and what we shouldn't be doing.

01:09:05:04 - 01:09:31:02
John Simmerman
Let's let's focus in as cities on what we talked about earlier is creating more choices and more opportunities for people. And that reframes it so that it is less of feeling like we're taking things away from the public. And that's one of the biggest, you know, bike lash things that we have is that it's perceived by certain parts of the society, of our communities.

01:09:31:02 - 01:09:49:22
John Simmerman
As you're taking stuff away from us, if we can reframe it as being we're adding more opportunities, more choices. And I think that that's a reframing device that that could serve us all well in, in terms of the benefits of what we're trying to do within our communities.

01:09:49:25 - 01:10:06:02
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think that that goes back to taking it out of the context of like, oh, if there's a bike lane here, it's helping that person that I don't like because they're getting in my way as a driver, you know, taking it out of this kind of individual conflict and bringing it to a bigger picture of, wow.

01:10:06:02 - 01:10:40:06
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. Like we're providing more options. We're improving the sustainability, the safety, the, you know, economic independence of our communities. We're doing so many things by, to begin with, you know, certainly investing in bicycling, but investing in sustainable cities in general. And, yeah, it's, I think that we're moving away from I hope we're moving away from thinking about it in terms of taking away people's cars, because I don't think anybody's ever proposed that, because it's it doesn't make sense.

01:10:40:06 - 01:10:59:03
Dan Piatkowski
And, you know, it's I think I, I made a point in the book to talk about the distinction between car free and car light. And I think car light is, a more useful term first, because it's just more accurate. Like, I don't, you know, cars are useful in the way that a bike is useful and a bus is useful.

01:10:59:05 - 01:11:05:28
Dan Piatkowski
They're modes of transportation that have their time and their place, and we just need to apply them correctly and appropriately.

01:11:06:01 - 01:11:13:26
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. I like to reframe things and saying, this isn't a war on cars. This is a war on car dependency.

01:11:13:28 - 01:11:16:04
Dan Piatkowski
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

01:11:16:07 - 01:11:35:26
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This has been so much fun catching up. And I look forward to seeing you in, a month's time. at the velocity conference in, in, against Belgium. All right, so, folks, get your copy of Bicycle City riding the Bike Boom to a Brighter Future by Dan Koski. And again, use the. But the code right here.

01:11:35:26 - 01:11:46:01
John Simmerman
Discount code save 20% out on Island press use the code bike city. again Dan, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

01:11:46:03 - 01:11:48:09
Dan Piatkowski
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Hey, thank.

01:11:48:09 - 01:12:04:08
John Simmerman
You all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Daniel Peter Koski, and if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

01:12:04:10 - 01:12:22:13
John Simmerman
And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. It's easy to do. Just head on over to my website at Active Town Start org and click on the support tab at the top of the page. Again, thank you so much for tuning in. It really means so much to me.

01:12:22:17 - 01:12:46:05
John Simmerman
And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers and again sending a huge thank you out all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patreon. Buy me a coffee YouTube. Super! Thanks! As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the Active Town Store. Every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated.

01:12:46:07 - 01:12:47:14
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much.