Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:17:15
Paul Steely White
Baking in activity to our everyday lives and to the built environment. It's such a in some ways, the simple but just such a profound idea. And we're really trying to do the same thing with nature, right? Like, like going to a park or having nature in your life should be about, you know, getting in the car and driving, you know, 20 miles to it, to a state park.

00:00:17:15 - 00:00:41:27
Paul Steely White
It should be right outside your door. And so there's this idea that we can, engender, you know, smart, you know, context sensitive development that's dense, you know, you know, but also, you know, proximity to nature along trails is, I think, really a, an idea whose time has come for, for today with, with so much demand for, for natural spaces, you know, coming out of the pandemic.

00:00:41:27 - 00:00:48:12
Paul Steely White
And so, this, this melding of the urban agenda and sort of the Parks and Green agenda, I think is, is very exciting.

00:00:48:14 - 00:01:09:10
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman, and that is Paul Steely White, executive director of Parks and Trails New York. And we are going to be walking down memory lane, back to the days when he was in New York City, transportation alternatives and some other fun adventures. But before we do that, I just want to say thank you so much for tuning in a really do appreciate it.

00:01:09:10 - 00:01:33:29
John Simmerman
And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Super easy to do. Just hit the join button right down below here on YouTube, or navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the page and there's several different options. Okay, let's get right to it with Paul Steely White.

00:01:34:01 - 00:01:38:06
John Simmerman
Paul Steely White, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:01:38:09 - 00:01:39:28
Paul Steely White
Really a joy to be here. Thank you.

00:01:39:28 - 00:01:59:10
John Simmerman
John Paul, this has been a long time coming. I've been wanting to get you on the channel for the longest time. And so I'm super, super stoked to have you here. Now, a lot of people are going to know who you are, but I can guarantee you there's a lot of folks, especially from the international audience, that is like, who the heck is Paul?

00:01:59:12 - 00:02:03:27
Paul Steely White
I think a lot of people say, who the heck is this guy? Yeah, I thank you. That's very generous. Yes.

00:02:04:03 - 00:02:10:15
John Simmerman
I'm going to turn the tables over to you. Who the heck is Boston, anyway?

00:02:10:17 - 00:02:33:11
Paul Steely White
Well, I'm here in Albany, New York, upstate New York, like a lot of, Brooklynites, moved up upstate around the pandemic time and found gainful employment working for this wonderful organization, Parks and Trails New York, which is celebrating its 40th anniversary. And we'll say maybe more about that later. What a great group Parks and Trails in New York is.

00:02:33:13 - 00:02:57:17
Paul Steely White
But I've spent my career, trying to make the world more bikeable, walkable, more humane. You know, I actually grew up in the Midwest and rode my bike to graduate school from Madison, Wisconsin to Missoula, Montana, which was a great place to do graduate work and environmental stuff. And I went there to study grizzly bear habitat and then realized that, the bike scene was much more fun.

00:02:57:17 - 00:03:26:17
Paul Steely White
And so I got into alternative transportation. And this is around the time of the second IST reauthorization of trying to reorient our transportation system in the US. A lot, a lot of folks are realizing that we've made some grave, grievous errors and how we were prioritizing our streets and the rest and, so I did an internship with a local bike ped coordinator there in Missoula, and then started a correspondence with the Institute for Transportation and Development Policy in New York City, because they were doing such amazing work.

00:03:26:20 - 00:03:48:00
Paul Steely White
And they shared an office with this other wonderful group called Transportation Alternatives. And they were all fighting the good fight there in New York and abroad, begging the rest of the world not to follow the US car oriented model. And so, I was casting about for, a thesis project. And so I got to go to New York and collect used bikes, and we shipped them to Africa.

00:03:48:00 - 00:04:07:29
Paul Steely White
And then I got to go evaluate these, cargo bike microfinancing projects that was started by this wonderful woman who's still very active in the New York bike scene. Her name is Karen Overton, and she pretty much, founded, I think, the modern recycler bike movement, but such a brilliant woman and was working on the urban planning side and the, bike project side.

00:04:07:29 - 00:04:16:16
Paul Steely White
I just love that sort of like combination of on the ground bike grease and, like, policy work. So I was hooked.

00:04:16:18 - 00:04:23:06
John Simmerman
I love it, I love it. I had no idea that there was a Missoula connection in there, too, so that's awesome.

00:04:23:09 - 00:04:45:17
Paul Steely White
Yeah. As you know, Missoula is just a great town for a lot of reasons. And, just a wonderful activist community. And I had to, colleagues there at the university who started a free bikes program, Bike share program there. You know, this is back in the mid 90s. And, of course, all the bikes ended up in the river, but it was it was a great like they did in Amsterdam.

00:04:45:17 - 00:05:00:16
Paul Steely White
I think the first time they tried the weight bikes in the late 60s. Right. So it's trial and error. So you get it. Right? But yeah, I learned a learned a lot there and learned a lot about how, you know, saving the environment is really about, getting our own act together as human beings.

00:05:00:18 - 00:05:24:29
John Simmerman
Yeah. Well, what's interesting to I love that story of going from Madison, Wisconsin, which, of course, is just a wonderful bike town. Of course you've got Trek Bicycles, which is headquartered just outside of the city there. But yeah, one of the classic active towns, it's is what I, what I when I talk about there's a few cities that are out there that are just like quintessential active towns.

00:05:24:29 - 00:05:46:24
John Simmerman
And, you know, Madison, Wisconsin is right up there. Missoula, Montana is right up there. I launched this initiative out of Boulder, Colorado. And Boulder's right there, too. Now, did you overlap at all with, Well, I'm trying to think of the era that you were there. It was probably before Jim Sayer took over at, adventure cycling is wonderful.

00:05:46:24 - 00:05:50:25
Paul Steely White
Yeah. This is the, Gary was his last name.

00:05:50:28 - 00:05:52:08
John Simmerman
Sipple.

00:05:52:10 - 00:05:53:12
Paul Steely White
Gary. Seidel. Yeah.

00:05:53:12 - 00:05:53:26
John Simmerman
Cycling.

00:05:53:26 - 00:06:03:20
Paul Steely White
Greg. Greg. Greg Smith, the founder. And Greg was still there. He and his wife founded bikes. And believe it or not, I was the receptionist at, Adventure Cycling Association.

00:06:03:22 - 00:06:09:24
John Simmerman
So you got to, like, you got to, like, greet all the people who are like, riding their bikes. Explain what that's all about.

00:06:09:25 - 00:06:30:14
Paul Steely White
Oh, my gosh. So it's it's adventure. It's discovery. It's, you know, for those people who know how wonderful it is to discover the world on two wheels, it was just to greet these folks coming off the trail. They, you know, for thousands of miles, and all they want to do is tell stories. And so you sort of soak it up and listen to them and, they sort of put you there.

00:06:30:14 - 00:06:50:27
Paul Steely White
But Greg was really amazed he would take these pictures of people would they would come off the trail. And so just a wonderful photographer, very talented and capture that sort of like thousand yard wonder stare that people get when they're out there traveling on the, which is you fast becoming, connected, right? Trail that goes coast to coast.

00:06:50:27 - 00:07:14:22
Paul Steely White
Right. But they were just pioneers, you know, bike Centennial and really just, celebrating all of the wonderful things about bicycling and keeping that sort of, flame a lit, you know, during that, during the dark era and in the 70s, when, so much was happening with, you know, urban renewal and, continuing to, you know, pave over various paradises.

00:07:14:24 - 00:07:40:05
John Simmerman
Yeah. And it just pulled up the, the site here for adventure cycling and, the, the other, you know, kind of key person who was a part of that, who's very much a part of the urbanism and active mobility was Dan Burden, who was also, very much a part of the early days with that. There's so much history that that goes along with this group of characters there.

00:07:40:07 - 00:08:12:28
John Simmerman
And, and I do remember popping in there. It must have been 2012, and, I was making my way. Cross-country was a road trip, but not, by not by bike. But I had my bike, my racing bike in my car. And I was making my way from Boulder, Colorado, up through the Montanas and heading to, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, where I was racing in, Ironman, Coeur d'Alene that year, I in I, Idaho and so I popped in to adventure cycling to, you know, say hi.

00:08:13:02 - 00:08:17:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, say hey to, to Jim. And he was still was it, was it in the church.

00:08:17:15 - 00:08:26:05
Paul Steely White
Because because they took over this old church, which is very fitting, right? Because we have this, like, religious fervor that we bring to it. Think it's like there was.

00:08:26:11 - 00:08:56:13
John Simmerman
I didn't get the sense that it was an old church, but, Yeah. What a great. Yeah, yeah, what a great organization. Like you said, they they've been really working on establishing these roots, across North America. And, and I think working also in collaboration with the Rails to Trails Conservancy to, who's also, you know, working hard to create in, you know, connectivity of pathways and trails.

00:08:56:15 - 00:09:05:09
Paul Steely White
Brian Chow, their executive director, is keynote, a conference that we're hosting here in, in New York in the fall. Maybe we'll get a chance to say something about that later.

00:09:05:10 - 00:09:29:25
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, no, that'd be great. Let's definitely, put a pin in that and make sure we do that. But I do want to pop back over here. Two transportation alternatives, which is where you landed in New York City. And so that puts you right into the belly of the beast. Of of of dealing in the arena of active transportation and advocacy and activism.

00:09:29:28 - 00:09:44:02
John Simmerman
And you got to love, you know, their current graphics here, streets for people. And of course, I've got my streets after people coffee mug here. Talk a little bit about that era of of being engaged and involved with transportation alternatives. How many years were you there?

00:09:44:04 - 00:10:12:20
Paul Steely White
Oh gosh. Where to start? So I was there for 14 years as executive director, from 2003 or 4 to 2018. But when I landed in 1997, the new York City, thanks to Karen Overton, right, at recycle bike and and she was an active volunteer with both Transportation Alternatives and the Institute for Transportation and Development Policy, which was like the international wing of the movement, trying to reform all of the, multilateral bilateral, lending or, you know, world Bank.

00:10:12:20 - 00:10:34:29
Paul Steely White
Right? They were just funding car projects and countries where like 1% of people owned cars, right? So does great, great work. But, it's such a storied organization and transportation alternatives, you know, founded in 1973. And the really just you know, groundswell of environmental consciousness and, you know, oil crisis and, you know, the Clean, Clean Air Act and just the activism.

00:10:34:29 - 00:11:10:14
Paul Steely White
Right? There's this the archive of, handbills and posters and photos from protest. Pete Seeger played the first, you know, to protest at the General Motors building there in Manhattan. Right. And, Action Against Automobiles, I think triple AA was the first proto name before they landed on Transportation Alternatives. But to come in to that scene in, you know, mid to late 90s as a hayseed essentially from the West, you know, and be welcomed and doing critical mass rides and getting arrested in Central Park and, and, getting to know the network of folks.

00:11:10:14 - 00:11:28:23
Paul Steely White
You know, Charlie coming off, of course, is still very you know, the father of, of congestion pricing is very active. And Charlie also was in that same sort of ilk of being, you know, getting sweaty and dirty and being in the trenches, but also just being just like a brilliant policy leader. And I just love that or something very honest about it, you know.

00:11:28:23 - 00:11:50:12
Paul Steely White
And that really just attracted me to to the work and to the organization. And so when I had the opportunity to come back from Africa, where I was working on various transportation projects and apply for it for the job in 2003, it was just a dream, a dream come true, you know? But the car free Central Park campaign, right, was like one of our big ones that I think maybe we have a photo of that coming up here soon.

00:11:50:12 - 00:12:14:00
Paul Steely White
But the new executive director now, who just started, a couple months ago, Ben Furness, I had the pleasure just this past weekend of riding with Ben in the Five Borough Pizza Challenge, which was founded by Joe Ka. Truffaut currently leads the charge in Houston. But he was our communications manager there at to and founded this wonderful event where you go to each borough, eat a slice of pizza, you know, no cars.

00:12:14:03 - 00:12:33:03
Paul Steely White
You get your little pizza passport stamped and, what a fun event. So Ben's already just doing a wonderful job, leading, which is really a volunteer led organization. Right? It's all it's all happening on the ground in the boroughs with people who just care so much that they want to, reclaim their streets as well. Yeah.

00:12:33:05 - 00:12:58:00
John Simmerman
Now you were. I remember a lot of the stuff that you were working on. I was very engaged in involved in bicycle advocacy work, primarily where I lived. This is years before I started, active towns and so I was very much involved. I was on the board of directors for a nonprofit, and then, briefly took over as the interim executive director as we were doing a search.

00:12:58:02 - 00:13:18:26
John Simmerman
But that was on the big island of Hawaii. So I lived, way out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, for over a decade, or basically a decade, there on the Big Island. And so I was very much involved with the advocacy work, and we were following what everybody was doing. You know, what we like to say on the mainland, you know, over here.

00:13:18:28 - 00:13:40:29
John Simmerman
And so your name would keep coming up, and you were right in the hot spot of so much action. And we can talk a little bit about burnout, especially in nonprofits and how it's really, really hard to, to, to stay engaged decade after decade after decade. So we can talk a little bit about life balance and all that.

00:13:41:06 - 00:13:59:12
John Simmerman
But you guys were right there at the forefront of so many big fights and wins and bruises and bumps. And so, yeah, one of them was, was this where you guys worked hard to get cars out of Central Park?

00:13:59:14 - 00:14:34:16
Paul Steely White
Yeah. I don't know if there's a more egregious example of sort of the wrong turn we made in the United States with our transportation policy. But to take this absolute gem of a public space and, you know, Robert Moses and others just, you know, straightening the wending roads that used to be the exclusive domain of pedestrians and horse carriages and then basically turning them into highways, you know, you know, in the mid-twentieth century, and then you know, making it virtually impossible for people to enjoy the park, you know, which is express sole purpose, you know?

00:14:34:16 - 00:15:05:24
Paul Steely White
And so it was really an emblematic and I think, galvanizing campaign for the whole movement. And even though it took, you know, 30 plus years to finally make Central Park completely car free, it was I think you hit it on the head, John, when you're talking about just the constant recharging that you have to do as an advocate and celebrating those small wins along the way where we would eke out a few more car free hours, you know, on the weekend or during the week, or get a few more entrances close to cars, reclaim that space.

00:15:05:26 - 00:15:33:14
Paul Steely White
But this was just a story of, dedicated, continuous effort by a really, strong core of volunteers. I mean, this guy, Ken Coughlin, bless Ken. He was collected literally like tens of thousands of petition signatures from park goers and just kept hammering away. And so I was at my best as an advocate when I was just getting Ken coffee and telling him, thank you for all the work you're doing.

00:15:33:17 - 00:16:06:18
Paul Steely White
But it was also like a lot of our campaigns. A story about coalition building and getting a sort of symphony of, not usual suspects. Right? Strange bedfellows where we would get business interests, economic development, in addition to the usual environmentalists and biking and walking community. And I have to give a ton of credit to kind of to, you know, mayor Mike Bloomberg, and of course, Jeanette Sakon for helping us really just push this over the, over the hump so that when Bill de Blasio came in as mayor, it was really a no brainer for him just to make the.

00:16:06:20 - 00:16:18:21
John Simmerman
To finally make that happen. Yeah, it's interesting to and we'll secure with the, the the the last car because you were the last car.

00:16:18:23 - 00:16:31:12
Paul Steely White
This is a really sweet moment where, I, I, I don't think I even had a driver's license at this point. But I did, I did, and and I had to wear the helmet. Right. Because we're familiar with all the reasons why, you know.

00:16:31:17 - 00:16:34:29
John Simmerman
Oh, yeah. You have to. Yeah.

00:16:35:02 - 00:16:48:03
Paul Steely White
But Palit Romberg, the, D.O.T. commissioner at the time, was on a city bike. Of course, I think riding, riding next to us. But, yeah, this was the ceremonial last, last car and Central Park. Yeah. Wow.

00:16:48:05 - 00:17:14:11
John Simmerman
It's it is interesting, too. And one would think that we wouldn't have to fight so hard to do something as simple as, making parks more people oriented places. But, you know, within walking distance from my house is is our version of Central Park here in Austin, Texas. And we've got basically a four lane motorway ripping right through the middle of Zilker Park.

00:17:14:13 - 00:17:43:22
John Simmerman
And it just it's so, it's so frustrating and mind blowing. Fortunately, we were able to the city was able to do a, a lane repurposing and put in protected bike lanes in the on that same street, Barton Springs Road, leading up to the park and got that reduced and got that traffic calmed. But we were still like stuck on trying to fix the park and make that more people oriented.

00:17:43:25 - 00:18:06:11
John Simmerman
It again, it's just mind blowing that it's so difficult. The other thing that's mind blowing too, is some of the things that we've saw in this era, which is you try to take a step forward and you know and create, you know, all ages and abilities, facilities for for people out there on the streets and, you know, trying to, again, transform our streets.

00:18:06:12 - 00:18:21:21
John Simmerman
Their streets really are for people into more people oriented places. And then we get hit with resistance. We get hit with lawsuits. You guys weathered your way through lawsuits. San Francisco had to weather their way through lawsuits as well.

00:18:21:23 - 00:18:43:23
Paul Steely White
Took a much tougher time in San Francisco. Yeah. We never had, like, you know, a massive sort of legal issue with, with bike lanes like San Francisco had. It was it was more as, as Vince Lombardi would say, a game of inches, you know, just just just block by block and you're New York City, is a very like a lot of cities, I suppose, is is really, covered by, you know, small sort of five tons at the local level.

00:18:43:23 - 00:19:01:12
Paul Steely White
You know, there's these sort of, unelected sort of local mayors who really have a lot of sway and the community boards system. So a lot of that happens in the trenches. I remember Woody Allen coming out against, you know, some bike lanes, you know, that were being proposed for his street. And everyone would always say, you know, I'm not against bike lanes.

00:19:01:12 - 00:19:05:04
Paul Steely White
It's just this particular one on my street. I don't I don't want.

00:19:05:06 - 00:19:09:13
John Simmerman
Wasn't there a famous one, right next to Prospect Park or something.

00:19:09:13 - 00:19:28:27
Paul Steely White
Like that was, I think, Jeanette. Salon.com called that the most contested piece of land outside the Gaza Strip, which, yeah, maybe it's a joke that hasn't aged very well, but, her point was obviously well taken, which is that, it shouldn't have been so contested. Right? It was pretty obvious, and it's obvious to everyone now. And that's the real story, right?

00:19:28:27 - 00:19:37:20
Paul Steely White
Whether it's car free parks or bike lanes or pedestrian streets, you know, once it happens, people scratch their heads and they say, how could it be otherwise?

00:19:37:23 - 00:19:55:23
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's it's insane. So you mentioned, Janette Sadiq Khan and, we'll, we'll, we'll focus in on her in a little bit. But there's another famous, female that was so impactful around this era as well. And that was the one and only Kate McKinnon.

00:19:55:25 - 00:20:14:23
Paul Steely White
Oh my gosh. Oh that one. Yeah. So this blows people's mind. And it blew my, 16 year old, daughter's mind when I told her that I ran indicate a couple months ago at my local coffee shop in New York. Right. Yeah, two hours north of the city. And there she was. And, you know, you're not supposed to go up to celebrities, right?

00:20:14:23 - 00:20:35:10
Paul Steely White
You're supposed to just, like, pretend that you don't see them. I went up to Kate because I remembered her from years ago and before she was famous, and she was Veronica mars doing a parody of a car pro car lobbyist. Yeah, for Veronica mars. Yeah. What's up? Mars? And, it was such a wonderful moment because she's so cool.

00:20:35:10 - 00:20:40:06
Paul Steely White
And this is before she was. But it was obvious to all of us that she was just, like, not in our league at all. Right.

00:20:40:08 - 00:20:41:01
John Simmerman
And so.

00:20:41:03 - 00:21:03:12
Paul Steely White
You know, I think, like, this Bloomberg News article, you know, maybe, mentioned you know, it was like the cool girl in school sitting at the nerds lunch table, you know? Yeah, exactly. All star struck. But, yeah, she did such a great turn. Just, you know, exposing how ridiculous it is to oppose these commonsense, humane street improvements.

00:21:03:14 - 00:21:20:18
Paul Steely White
And. But she was so gracious when I ran into her, when I accosted her a couple of months ago and meatballs. And she remembered that whole thing. Is she remember the thing? And, she was so gracious and, Yeah. What a what a wonderful woman. And, Yeah, we were very lucky to have her. There she is.

00:21:20:21 - 00:21:22:03
Paul Steely White
Yeah.

00:21:22:06 - 00:21:48:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. This is, Clarence. He just absolutely loves that this this video just continues to live on. And part of this particular article in Bloomberg, is, is highlighting to the fact that, a few of these videos that she did, in partnership with, Street Films, you know, really, really took off. And it was so funny that she did such a great job of just deadpan.

00:21:49:01 - 00:21:55:22
John Simmerman
And some people were even like, is this person for real? Is like, no, it's not, but it's so well done.

00:21:55:22 - 00:21:57:17
Paul Steely White
Yeah, yeah, she's captivating.

00:21:57:19 - 00:22:20:06
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. It's fantastic. But then that's I guess that's part of the beauty, the that of being, you know, in, in New York, you know it's, it's similar like to my hometown in Los Angeles. It's like, you know, you're in the midst and you can turn the table or turn the corner. And the next thing you know, it's like, a famous person is there to also.

00:22:20:08 - 00:22:40:17
Paul Steely White
Yeah. And I think it underscores a couple of really, I think, profound points about the work. One that you hit on a bit ago, John, which was that you've got to guard against burnout. Right? So having these kinds of interactions with these crazy characters is just something that sort of can keep you going, you know? And it's and it keeps the job fun.

00:22:40:19 - 00:22:59:19
Paul Steely White
You know, the other thing you realize is that it's not about the engineering, and it's not even about the politics that matters most. It's about the culture, you know? And so really, you've got to tell a better story than the opposition. You've got to get more colorful, awesome people on your side. And the more you're doing that, the more you're sort of, yeah, the more you're winning, I guess.

00:22:59:21 - 00:23:15:22
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And speaking of which, since we're going to be name dropping here and talking about famous people again, we were referencing Jeanette, sort of con earlier. She's to your right there. And then we got a few other famous people just popping in to say hello or.

00:23:15:23 - 00:23:38:10
Paul Steely White
Yeah, in the middle there, that's Judith Roden from the Rockefeller Foundation. And this is like a dream, right? Where, Jeanette and I were, co awardees, like, I think that was 2011 of the Jean Jacobs medal. And, it still feels like a dream, but, Robert De Niro was getting the medal, too, that year for his work bringing Tribeca back after 911.

00:23:38:12 - 00:23:59:24
Paul Steely White
And it was so fun to be there with Bob. And and we were chatting, we there were with our medals on there, we were just sort of chatting and it felt like that scene and Star Wars at the end of Star Wars where like the heroes get the medals and it was just really, otherworldly. But DeNiro pulls me close and he says, you're the guy who did the bike lanes.

00:23:59:27 - 00:24:11:03
Paul Steely White
And it's like, yes, yes, that was all me. He says. I don't like the bike lanes. Yeah. And then of course, I backtracked. I said, no, no, it wasn't really me. It was like a community of people who did.

00:24:11:05 - 00:24:13:19
John Simmerman
It was it was her. It was, it was. Yeah.

00:24:13:22 - 00:24:14:04
Paul Steely White
Was do.

00:24:14:04 - 00:24:15:03
John Simmerman
That.

00:24:15:06 - 00:24:34:29
Paul Steely White
And then he chuckled and he said, come with me. And so we, went downstairs in the elevator with his whole entourage. We went out onto the street. There was this huge black limousine, you know, SUV. And he says, talk to my driver. He doesn't like the bike lanes. And so I thought he was sincere, like he sincerely wanted me to, like, explain the whole thing to us.

00:24:34:29 - 00:24:51:11
Paul Steely White
Right. And then I realized after about two minutes of a heated argument with his, this driver, that he he was just in it for the entertainment value. He just wanted to see this sort of New York street back and forth, you know, had a good laugh. Yeah. It was really. Yeah. Bizarre.

00:24:51:11 - 00:25:02:16
John Simmerman
Well, you know, how how do we follow up, you know, with Bob and and Judith and Jeanette set a con? Well, obviously we go to the rock star right here.

00:25:02:19 - 00:25:09:00
Paul Steely White
I'm mean, I'm going to get weepy. I'm going to get weepy. Yeah. I mean, the last the last public thing he did was on your show, right?

00:25:09:00 - 00:25:43:11
John Simmerman
That was like, I think so it's it's certainly one of the last year we recorded that episode in late December. It, it was premiered on January 10th of this year. And, to kick off season nine of the podcast and, and. Yeah, Don was just so incredibly gracious. I mean, one of the great things about him is just how giving he was, of wanting to to get the message out and, but at the same time, you know, I had a few years ago, I had an opportunity to see him give a keynote address.

00:25:43:14 - 00:25:59:00
John Simmerman
And, you know, there's a handful of people that just captivate an audience. Gilpin, you lost is one of them. And Don and a handful of others. It just has the audience just captivated. And he really was like, this rock star figure here.

00:25:59:01 - 00:26:17:26
Paul Steely White
Oh, without a doubt. With, And he had fun. He was like, he was funny. And he and he as serious as he was in some sense, because he had the tweed and the very sort of professorial air, he would just love to just hang out and joke. And when he came on, we had this wonderful venue in Times Square, the same venue, actually, that, yeah.

00:26:17:26 - 00:26:36:02
Paul Steely White
And Google made his sort of New York debut right where we were trying to get Broadway and all that stuff done. And, and we had a packed house because this is maybe a couple of years after we had. Yeah. And go so we had this like we were on a roll. We had all these great speakers coming in and spreading the gospel and evangelizing about all the stuff that needed to happen.

00:26:36:02 - 00:26:58:07
Paul Steely White
And Don was like, so fun to work with because not only, you know, you've got the sheepdog thing, right, you've got the shooter. But we played salt and pepper Shoop, if you're familiar with that ditty, you know, it's like, you know, a wonderful, wonderful song. But he gets up and he's like, cut in the groove and dancing and just having total fun with it and making those like Seinfeld references.

00:26:58:07 - 00:27:05:21
Paul Steely White
Right? Why, why, why should I have to pay for it? If I applied myself, I could get it for free, right? Yeah yeah yeah.

00:27:05:28 - 00:27:21:01
John Simmerman
Oh my God. Yeah, yeah. For for those who don't know that reference, look it up is something that George, says, and in fact, he, we you even have a slide here about that. You know, here's the, the the Brooklyn, bike.

00:27:21:01 - 00:27:43:18
Paul Steely White
Lane warriors of the late aughts. Yes. Prospect Park West, and, I've got it. I've got I've just mentioned Eric McClure, from, you know, Park Slope neighbors who now run Streets Park. This is probably right in front of Eric's. Eric's house are very, very nearby. But what a what a moment. Right when, there was such fervor around that and such friction.

00:27:43:20 - 00:28:02:29
Paul Steely White
But, you know, that's when, you know that you're, you're you're making progress, right? When you're bringing all that stuff out into the open and then average folks and see, wait, wait, those people are protesting what the ability for kids to bike safely to soccer practice. Really. Right. And it exposes it for what it is. Right. Which, I suppose is a silver lining, maybe of a current moment that we're also kind of in.

00:28:03:00 - 00:28:03:20
Paul Steely White
So.

00:28:03:22 - 00:28:25:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. So let's address the the elephant in the room. And that is again, the long term, you know, being able to do this kind of work for the long haul and being able to have that life balance and being able to, you know, keep this going because I certainly see it out there, especially during really, really tough times.

00:28:25:09 - 00:28:50:06
John Simmerman
And we're we've in the last couple of months, we've transitioned into a very, very rough time in terms of especially not knowing where some of the critical transportation funding is going to be and whether grants are going to be fulfilled. And it can get very, very stressful, very, very quickly. You eventually did step down from your role there at to and went a different direction for a while.

00:28:50:08 - 00:29:17:05
John Simmerman
Any any wisdom now that the even that dust has settled in your you're back in the nonprofit world now in a different area. But any you know, any wisdom that you can pass on for longevity, for people to be able to stay engaged and not necessarily, you know, feel the need to have to change careers, is there a way or is that the only way out, or do we do do need to shift gears and go a different direction point?

00:29:17:07 - 00:29:45:16
Paul Steely White
I mean, it's what a great question. You know, and, and I, I could think of a couple maybe relevant things to say. But, you know, I think the most important thing might be remembering sort of the foundational reason of, you know, why we do the work. You know, you if you're reading your Jane Jacobs or you're reading your, you know, you can go, you get a, a sense that they really celebrate and really genuinely enjoy the fleeting moments of eye contact with strangers or, you know, yeah.

00:29:45:16 - 00:30:05:29
Paul Steely White
And going to tell the story of being in Venice, you know, virtually a car free town and hearing or hearing a mother call for her children, you know, like a mile away, you know, and just like the humanity of that. So you've really got a dig that stuff on it on a deep level. And I think that really keeps keeps one going even when times are hard.

00:30:06:01 - 00:30:12:19
John Simmerman
It sounds like what you're saying is it sounds like what you're saying is, is also holding on to the why.

00:30:12:21 - 00:30:34:13
Paul Steely White
Holding on to the why, and then realizing that there are moments throughout the course of your day, even if it's a dangerous, congested street or, and otherwise sort of like, you know, not so idyllic setting. There's there's still some humanity there to recognize and celebrate, you know, and I think that's that's what I think kept me going.

00:30:34:18 - 00:30:53:17
Paul Steely White
But I was also supremely lucky. You know, Jeannette cycling shows up as the transportation commissioner. It's just like, okay, but but yeah, there are a lot of tough times. And so you've got to celebrate your small ones. You've got to celebrate those, those small, humane moments that, that that might turn you out in the first place. And that's just the people.

00:30:53:17 - 00:31:10:00
Paul Steely White
I mean, what have we done so far in this podcast? We've just been like talking about all these wonderful people that we get to rub shoulders with, you know? So that's that's what it's about. You've got to be having a good time. You know, the arc of history is long and until it bends you where you've got to just, like, enjoy what you can.

00:31:10:02 - 00:31:11:11
Paul Steely White
Yeah.

00:31:11:13 - 00:31:23:16
John Simmerman
So right around when was it 2017, 2022? 2018? Is that, when you made the move over to Bird.

00:31:23:19 - 00:31:48:03
Paul Steely White
In 2018, I left transportation after after 14 years. You know, I was I was like, thank you. I've been in this job for a while. There's all these young Jedi, you know, coming up. And I was feeling a little irrelevant. And I was like, okay, maybe I need to try something new. And, and so, yeah, join the micromobility revolution, you know, all of the, bike and scooter sharing that was happening.

00:31:48:03 - 00:31:55:15
Paul Steely White
And it was an exciting time. And, you know, as we now know, in retrospect, it was pretty frothy.

00:31:55:17 - 00:32:01:19
John Simmerman
Yes. A lot of, because it was it was two different stones. Right? It was, it was bird first and then.

00:32:01:22 - 00:32:21:15
Paul Steely White
And then, super pedestrian which which, you know, in my heart of hearts, I really wanted super pedestrian to, to succeed because it was this MIT startup that had this beautifully designed scooter that, you know, and they had a lot of, you know, urban minded folks on the team who were really in it for the right reasons. They were just trying to get rich quick, you know.

00:32:21:17 - 00:32:22:03
Paul Steely White
Well, and.

00:32:22:03 - 00:32:48:17
John Simmerman
And what I appreciated about Super Pedestrian and we did have them here in Austin is that, they also were taking a different tact, the, the sort of break things first, tact of of early micromobility was them, you know, dropping their units onto the street without permission here in, in Austin during South by Southwest and then having them all confiscated by the city, you know.

00:32:48:17 - 00:33:16:23
John Simmerman
And so it was it was definitely this mindset almost kind of patterned similar to Uber and Lyft, you know, sorting sort of breaking models and breaking things and then, you know, asking for forgiveness later. Super pedestrian had the the different tact of partnering with cities and doing things on the up and up, which I really appreciated. And I think the cities that did use super pedestrian, I think that they appreciated that too.

00:33:16:28 - 00:33:27:03
John Simmerman
And as you mentioned, also safer units, safer, you know, actual micromobility devices. Yeah. So that was wonderful to see too.

00:33:27:06 - 00:33:46:29
Paul Steely White
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And, you know, a lot of lessons were learned and it's nice to see that, you know, a lot of vestiges of that era have like sort of, you know, evolved and improved and sort of gone on. And I think, you know, what we have now and City Bike is amazing. And, you know, there are still tough times where people are figuring out how to fund it.

00:33:47:02 - 00:34:05:14
Paul Steely White
But, you know, it's been said many times, you know, it's really hard to make transportation profitable. It's essentially a public good, you know, if you do it right. And so, you know, I think, hopefully now with City Bike, we recognize that, you know, the subsidy per trip is much lower than a lot of other forms, pretty much every other form of public transit.

00:34:05:14 - 00:34:09:28
Paul Steely White
Right? So it really is deserving of of public support.

00:34:10:00 - 00:34:36:04
John Simmerman
So then along comes, you know, the, the inevitable downfall of, of super pedestrian. And that that happens. They do the, the, the, the end of that story was that they weren't able to continue and, and and again lessons learned many others also went that way. But the other thing that happened for you too, was similar to like Kate McKinnon, as you mentioned, it's very public that she's moved upstate.

00:34:36:04 - 00:34:44:18
John Simmerman
She's gotten out of the city. And so have you. And, and so, you know, now, this is kind of the view.

00:34:44:21 - 00:34:45:17
Paul Steely White
Of.

00:34:45:19 - 00:34:47:29
John Simmerman
The Paul Healy white view.

00:34:48:01 - 00:35:08:20
Paul Steely White
Yeah. You know, it's like, you see those those pictures of, of highway interstates with no cars on them and like the open the open road, this is like the Greenway trail version of this. And it was actually hard to get to for me to find this photo because this is the Wallkill Valley Rail Trail, which is very, you know, right through New Paltz, where, where we live now, my wife and three kids and, hi, Zoe.

00:35:08:20 - 00:35:35:03
Paul Steely White
How are you doing? My wife. So she's a she's a poet. She has a new poetry book coming out. But. So I love this canopy effect. Right? It's like it's like a Gothic arch of of trees, you know, and, and the trail just invites you in. I just love it. And, you know, thinking back to the heyday of my work in New York and the Manhattan Waterfront Greenway, which was such a great spine to sort of build off of.

00:35:35:03 - 00:35:52:28
Paul Steely White
You know, we used to have this term Greenway graduates, you know, people who would start urban cycling on the Greenway and then slowly get the comfort and the confidence to, like, ride on the street cred. And of course, we were busy trying to get the protected bike lanes to make that possible. But, the Greenway trail is is so much right.

00:35:52:28 - 00:36:15:23
Paul Steely White
It's it's it's a park. It's a linear park. It's a transportation corridor. And increasingly, I think people are seeing these kinds of assets as, you know, vital for for public health, community health in New Paltz. This is like our main street, you know, you're out running or walking or riding on the trail and you see your neighbors and you stop and say hi and, and increasingly it's an economic development tool.

00:36:15:23 - 00:36:42:12
Paul Steely White
Right? And I think that's really what's on my mind these days as an advocate is how can we insulate ourselves, from the sort of vagaries of, of, of the political culture and the ups and downs. And I keep coming back to just documenting how much these Greenway trails can, you know, revitalize local economies, you know, provide the kind of lifestyle and, livelihood that people want these days.

00:36:42:12 - 00:37:09:12
Paul Steely White
Right? And that's something I think we're making, maybe going to get into a little bit here in a second. But the watchword is or the watch phrase is, you know, trail oriented development. Of course, borrowing from from Tod and really just trying to, like, figure out what's that basket of land use and zoning and, you know, and parking and planning that that's going to help unlock more value as communities, continue to, build out their greenway trail networks.

00:37:09:14 - 00:37:20:22
John Simmerman
Yeah. I always when I see an image like this, I always think that, you know, the forest is just reaching out and giving you a hug. You know, Richard Louv would be happy. You know, it's like a connection with nature.

00:37:20:22 - 00:37:38:21
Paul Steely White
I love that, I love that, yeah. And it's it's really great just to, as you know, and those trails, all this new research showing how important nature is for our mental health, our physical health and but you feel it in your bones, you know, you go out and you feel it in your bones and you see, it holds your attention, right?

00:37:38:22 - 00:38:02:17
Paul Steely White
Not like digital stuff holds your attention, but it holds your attention in a really deep way. And I think people are really tapping into that. And of course, during the pandemic, the state park system here in New York State and our greenway network was just being loved like never before. You know, like skyrocketing visitation and people. It's another I think, silver lining of the pandemic where people discovered many of these places and they haven't stopped coming.

00:38:02:17 - 00:38:24:03
Paul Steely White
You know, the visitation has continued to, skyrocket, you know, since the end of the pandemic. So we're really seeing this flowering of interest in our public lands in New York State. And our job at Parks and Trails, thank you very much, is to, continue improving these spaces. And, my predecessor in this role was, just a wonderful force of nature.

00:38:24:05 - 00:38:44:03
Paul Steely White
Her name was Robyn Dropcam, and she famously, made the Empire State Trail what it is today. Right. The 750 mile, outside magazine called it the best greenway trail in America, going from Buffalo to Albany and from the Canadian border down to New York City. It's sort of like the city on its side. I think we might have a map, a map here in a second.

00:38:44:05 - 00:39:11:13
Paul Steely White
But Robyn also famously saved the park system from from ruin during the fiscal crisis in 2020 ten, when they were going to shutter like 100 state parks, and she rally the troops and went to the state capitol here in Albany. And, you know, stop that from happening. And then stoked a reinvestment in the system so that when all those people came to these wonderful places during the pandemic, they had restrooms and facilities and water and and they just discovered how great the system is.

00:39:11:13 - 00:39:15:14
Paul Steely White
So we owe a lot to Robin Drop and fantastic.

00:39:15:14 - 00:39:41:14
John Simmerman
That's great. Talk a little bit about the history of this organization. And and how does this work, like with the official state, you know, government, of, you know, of New York and, and in that model and how maybe other states and other provinces and other countries can kind of learn from this.

00:39:41:16 - 00:40:06:06
Paul Steely White
Yeah. It's, it's a great question. And, you know, we're celebrating our 40th anniversary this year at Parks and Trails, and it was really founded, based on the realization that our state park system in New York is really like a national park system. I mean, there's really no big national parks in New York. And that's because more than 100 years ago, we sort of grabbed all these wonderful places and turned them into state public lands.

00:40:06:06 - 00:40:39:09
Paul Steely White
And we just celebrated the centennial of the system last year. So, you know, I think outside of California, it's the largest state park system in the country and certainly the most grand. And and there wasn't really an organization dedicated to ensuring that the system was healthy, that it was adequately funded. Right. That local volunteer groups, we now have about 80 of these very vibrant friends groups who are stewarding and minding and taking care of their their local park, an organization dedicated to keeping that whole apparatus going.

00:40:39:09 - 00:41:02:15
Paul Steely White
And so, Parks and Trails was founded back in 1985 to fulfill that purpose, and at the same time, begin to fill in the gaps on the Erie Canal, which was just sort of a, you know, PetSmart gap. Patchwork quilt of different sort of like onward and off road facilities. And today that section from Buffalo to Albany is almost completely car free, completely off road.

00:41:02:15 - 00:41:24:28
Paul Steely White
And so we have it's a it's such a tourist destination now, but it's also increasingly a transportation corridor for Syracuse and all the other cities in between. And our job here at Parks and Trails is to continue improving the trail, but also linking up all these spurs and connectors so that every community in New York State is connected to the the Greenway Trail network.

00:41:24:28 - 00:41:58:07
John Simmerman
Wow. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to pull up the, trails across, New York map here. We've got the zoom in on this so we can make sure that we get a good look at it. Okay, so this is a nonprofit that's helping facilitate and sort of curating and sort of like, be that backstop, make sure that that, you know, the, the funding is, is coming in that, that necessarily the quote unquote, state government isn't, forgetting about the fact that these are amazing assets.

00:41:58:09 - 00:42:18:05
Paul Steely White
Thank you. Exactly. And so, you know, we're first and foremost that independent advocate that fights for the system. Right now, we're in budget season in Albany. And so we're fighting for a state budget that, you know, funds the state park system. For what it's worth, because it's worth a lot. In fact, the state park system here is more economically important than even the ag sector in New York.

00:42:18:05 - 00:42:39:18
Paul Steely White
And if you know, New York. So apples dairy. Right. It's a it's a big deal. And so all of those people flocking to the system are spending money. And that doesn't even count the attractive value of investment talent, people moving to, you know, to these places for to be an active town or an active and active community with, with parks and nature.

00:42:39:18 - 00:42:57:17
Paul Steely White
And so we're always busy trying to document that value so that we can make a case here in the state capital that we need to be funding the system adequately. I think we're making progress this state budget this year. Everything that's happening in Washington, everything we're hearing from the governor, Governor Hochul to the state legislators, is that we're going to move in the opposite direction.

00:42:57:17 - 00:43:22:01
Paul Steely White
We're going to invest more in these public lands and the state agencies that steward them, so that, you know, we never go back to the bad old days when they were, you know, hungry, hungry for money and when they were, you know, dilapidated, you know, facilities. And so, we're an interesting organization because we do play the independent advocate role, but we also do a lot of work for the state.

00:43:22:04 - 00:43:46:21
Paul Steely White
Okay, planning, organizing, greenway trail expansion, cataloging all of the great efforts that are happening around the state. And then we also have a, a $2 million grants program where we get funding from the state, from the state budget, which we then on grant to these local friends groups. You know, $50,000 grants for small capital projects, organization, building programing.

00:43:46:24 - 00:44:07:16
Paul Steely White
Right, that just really keep those local parks humming. And so it's an interesting tension sometimes that I didn't experience in New York because it transportation alternatives. It's 100% independent funded. We can say whatever we want. We can be impolite if we have to be, but it's also in New York where it's where bare knuckle. But here upstate, it's it's it's more about partnership and collaboration.

00:44:07:18 - 00:44:24:10
Paul Steely White
But we do have, a very clear advocates stance on a lot of our issues. And I think people in government appreciate that because there are things that they can't say, that we can say we and we can do to, point out when, things are happening as they should.

00:44:24:12 - 00:44:50:20
John Simmerman
Right? Right. And in general, when you think about this, when you take a step back and you're not, you get out of the culture war sort of scenario that takes place when you're on the quote unquote, mean streets of the city and you're like, you're fighting over limited public space in our in our roadways, in our streets. Things get, you know, very ugly, very fast.

00:44:50:21 - 00:45:17:19
John Simmerman
As we mentioned earlier, the lawsuits and the threats of lawsuits and the and, you know, all the drama that ensues there when it comes to parks and trails and pathways, I, I make the point of saying, hey, these are beloved activity assets for, you know, everyone typically these are the types of, of assets that a community can have.

00:45:17:19 - 00:45:29:19
John Simmerman
Little towns and villages and cities and rural areas as well as urban. These are like they should be very, popular across the political spectrum.

00:45:29:21 - 00:45:53:26
Paul Steely White
And they are. And that's that's such a salient point because just looking at the Greenway trail network. Right. And how people on all sides of the aisle believe in these places and see their value. It's a it's a place to start. Right to I think heal hurt our culture, our culture wars and our differences and align on a common vision for for our communities.

00:45:53:26 - 00:46:15:10
Paul Steely White
Right. And so because when you're talking about bike lanes in isolation or up during isolation, it can, as you said, usually veer into very contentious territory. But when you start with the trail and this experience that everyone values, and then you start talking about connections to the trail and you know, what kind of community do we want to see grow up next to the trail?

00:46:15:12 - 00:46:21:20
Paul Steely White
It's just a great, more sort of consensus conducive place to start.

00:46:21:22 - 00:46:37:00
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Now we've got a graphic on here that's looking at the New York State Trail towns and, I believe there's a really a wonderful book. I think it's by Amy. Amy camp trail towns talking. Yeah.

00:46:37:03 - 00:46:58:04
Paul Steely White
We've heard a lot from Amy. Yeah, she's she's really, you know, the beacon of of this trail towns movement. I think it's a movement now because others others have followed suit. But this notion that, local communities can get so much more from the trail with, with a little bit of technical assistance and, and cheerleading and partnership.

00:46:58:04 - 00:47:24:10
Paul Steely White
And so we're very proud of the work that we've done. You know, throughout the the network here helping, you know, local towns get more economic value out of the trail. Right. And more community value. So it's, you know, placemaking, it's, you know, amenities, it's marketing and programing. And increasingly towns are asking us questions more related to planning and zoning and like, oh wow, we're we're starting to see a lot of developer interest in these parcels that are next to the trail.

00:47:24:10 - 00:47:44:10
Paul Steely White
You know, how can we leverage that interest and investment to like further sort of create the communities that we want to see. And so, you know, we've we've been working on defining what this trail oriented development could mean in New York State. And, it's very exciting because we already have some great examples of mixed use, you know, denser developments that face the trail.

00:47:44:10 - 00:47:47:08
Paul Steely White
Celebrate the trail. This is not New York.

00:47:47:11 - 00:48:24:28
John Simmerman
No, no, this is but but this actually channels, going back to young girl. This this channel is yin yang Gayle. This channel's, Jeff Speck. This, of course, is Carmel, Indiana, which is most famous for having the most number of roundabouts in their city. But this is the Monon Trail. And so this is incredibly impactful of how you can leverage a trail, a rail trail of the Monon rail Trail, which is one of the I believe it's it's one of the earlier, Hall of Fame rail trails, from the Rails to Trails Conservancy.

00:48:25:00 - 00:48:25:20
Paul Steely White
And.

00:48:25:23 - 00:48:54:09
John Simmerman
And this was just. Yeah, a Brainerd had this vision after having visited, over in Europe that, hey, we've got this wonderful opportunity to transform what's already a beloved activity asset into the heart of Carmel, Indiana, which other than just, low slung Main Street, literally, it's called Main Street. It is Main Street. There's there was no heart of the city, and now they have the heart of the city.

00:48:54:09 - 00:49:00:04
John Simmerman
So very much what you're talking about from a Todd perspective, a trail oriented development.

00:49:00:07 - 00:49:24:27
Paul Steely White
Yes, indeed. I love the Main Street invocation there because we're seeing that where where trails are functioning as like sort of the main meeting place and the sort of psychological and cultural center of gravity, you know, for, for, you know, for a community. And, you know, I showed this slide sometimes I was in Syracuse last week at the planning symposium, and they're thinking a lot about the urban context of their trail network.

00:49:24:27 - 00:49:33:13
Paul Steely White
And also just, you know, the more, rural context. But, yeah, what a what a wonderful vision, there in Indiana to follow.

00:49:33:16 - 00:50:02:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. And you don't have to go very far on the Monon, and then you're back in that enveloped in the forest to. So I mean, it's the combination. It's it's not to say one is quote unquote better than the other, but, I love this concept of, of leaning into and understanding how, these types of, of trails, trail towns can really help from an economic vitality and vibrancy.

00:50:02:28 - 00:50:31:19
John Simmerman
For municipalities, small municipalities, rural context, areas can have, an infusion of, vitality and financial vibrancy. And there's just so many great things that can happen. And when you create an activity asset that gives so much because it is encouraging people to get off the couches, get outside, get some physical activity. And as you mentioned, it doesn't have to be just recreation.

00:50:31:19 - 00:50:49:20
John Simmerman
It can be for transportation purposes as well. But then also, huge opportunity from from a tourism perspective and from other financial vibrancy and vitality that, these opportunities to be a quote unquote, trail town or an active towns can be.

00:50:49:26 - 00:51:16:22
Paul Steely White
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think the tourism really is small in comparison to the real estate and the economic development value of having companies, talent, individuals wanting to locate, wanting to be on the trail. And and of course, as soon as you talk about the the trail, you know, proximate premium of, you know, 20% higher, you know, real estate values, of course, we have to talk about displacement and gentrification and affordable housing.

00:51:16:22 - 00:51:40:22
Paul Steely White
And one of my favorite trail oriented development examples, it's right in my hometown of of New Paltz now, which is a, you know, a mixed use, dense for new pulse, you know, development, you know, for stories, and affordable housing, you know, you know, baked in and that's part of a specific zoning overlay for this sort of trail area in New Paltz, north of town.

00:51:40:22 - 00:52:03:15
Paul Steely White
And that development has now spurred a lot of copycat developments, because it's been so oversubscribed. People just like lining up to get into this building because it's right on the trail. You can hear the birds on the trail, you know, from from your upper story apartment there. And, it's such a successful example of the kind of development that I think, we're going to see a lot more of in New York State.

00:52:03:15 - 00:52:14:26
Paul Steely White
So really documenting just what that has done for, you know, local investment and and vibrancy is, I think, so important. And that's what we're busy doing at Parks and Trails.

00:52:14:29 - 00:52:39:24
John Simmerman
I'm really glad you mentioned that, too, because it's the same thing that I talk about when, you know, when we talk about trying to create an all ages and abilities network in a community, and if it's an underinvested, neighborhood or community, there's concerns of gentrification and displacement. And my approach from an active towns perspective of is that we have to invest in those areas.

00:52:39:24 - 00:53:01:13
John Simmerman
We have to make it easier for people to walk and bike and be able to get to meaningful destinations under their own power. So to not invest in that is not the right thing. We need to invest in them. We need to create a better places, higher quality places for people to live in, and we need to have anti displacement mechanisms in place.

00:53:01:15 - 00:53:20:03
John Simmerman
And so we need to understand that it's not a black versus white thing. It's not a you know this versus that. We need to understand that. We need to kind of do both. We need to gentrify. We need to improve the quality of life of these areas. But then we also need to make sure that we're not having unintended displacement of people.

00:53:20:03 - 00:53:24:25
John Simmerman
So I'm really glad you brought that up.

00:53:24:27 - 00:53:26:05
Paul Steely White
Absolutely.

00:53:26:07 - 00:53:34:28
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. What haven't we talked about yet that you want to make sure, we, we addressed before we say goodbye today.

00:53:35:01 - 00:53:56:03
Paul Steely White
I just for coming back to Diane Shoop. I just want to say, you know, Kingston, New York, which is just just down the road here from us in Albany and, is the site of our fall greenway conference. So the statewide, greenway conference at roasting here, you know, creating, communities, I think it's called internet site a con is one of our keynotes, as is Ryan Chao.

00:53:56:03 - 00:54:27:03
Paul Steely White
From Rails to Trails. And Kingston is is a great place to have it because they just won the CNU award for their, zoning, their new zoning code, which is, which is pretty incredible. It they eliminated their parking minimums. Thank you. Don. In Kingston and they have a just wonderful burgeoning trail network. So Kingston, used to have three rail cargo rail corridors coming into town there, and all of them are being developed into beautiful rail trails.

00:54:27:05 - 00:54:57:21
Paul Steely White
And their form based zoning code is really, uniquely suited to these sort of funky little parcels that sort of sprout around the, the trails, you know, like little triangular parcels next to the trail. Because the code is really seeking to, invite, you know, accessory dwelling development, you know, sites that wouldn't otherwise be developed and not be to, you know, prescriptive in terms of, of use, but just really giving people, you know, design guidelines so that they can just go ahead and build as are.

00:54:57:21 - 00:55:16:18
Paul Steely White
Right. And so the very ambitious affordable housing agenda in Kingston to go with all of this, as you put so well a few minutes ago. Thank you. So yeah, come to Kingston in in October. You can sign up on the Parks and Trails website. We'd love to see it will be having, you know, bike rides.

00:55:16:18 - 00:55:49:13
Paul Steely White
We're also going to be screening, a new PBS documentary, about the, Rails to Trails movement and, what's his name? Peter Harnik, who I think, you know, really helped help spur that and get it going. And I think Peter will be with us for the conference as well. So, so looking forward to that. And then just finally, I would love to connect with, with other folks who have ideas about how we can continue to, you know, build out the sort of corpus of guidelines related to trail oriented development, you know, making sure that development is preserving and improving public access, right?

00:55:49:13 - 00:56:20:08
Paul Steely White
That, you know, frontage and facade is really enhancing the trail experience. You know, looking at, you know, public amenities and other sorts of, you know, goodies that we want developers to, provide in exchange for getting to build a little more densely next to the trail. And thank you so much for mentioning just the magic of, of trails and how they can sort of bring people at different parts of the spectrum together and maybe agree on, you know, sometimes contentious issues around transportation and, and zoning and, and the rest.

00:56:20:11 - 00:56:27:04
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. Any final, final thoughts before we say goodbye?

00:56:27:07 - 00:56:35:01
Paul Steely White
It's just been such a pleasure. And thanks for indulging the, little bike ride down memory lane. Oh, yeah. Early on. That was fun.

00:56:35:04 - 00:56:54:07
John Simmerman
I that was a that was a given. I mean, there was absolutely no way we were going to get away with that just because of, the fact that, there's so much history there and, and always wonderful and any, any time I get an opportunity to, to to, promote one of, Clarence Harrison's old street films that upset him.

00:56:54:07 - 00:56:55:07
John Simmerman
So let's see.

00:56:55:07 - 00:57:15:17
Paul Steely White
Next week and, you know, maybe, if you don't mind, just one parting shot, just like, what you've done to really build such a community and a movement around, you know, baking in activity to our everyday lives and to the built environment. It's such a, in some ways, a simple but just such a profound idea. And we're really trying to do the same thing with nature, right?

00:57:15:17 - 00:57:46:11
Paul Steely White
Like, like going to a park or having nature in your life should be about, you know, getting in the car and driving, you know, 20 miles to it, to a state park. It should be right outside your door. And so there's this idea that we can, engender, you know, smart, you know, context sensitive development that's dense, you know, you know, but also, you know, proximate to nature along trails is, I think, really a, an idea whose time has come for, for today with, with so much demand for, for natural spaces, you know, coming out of the pandemic.

00:57:46:11 - 00:57:53:01
Paul Steely White
And so, this, this melding of the urban agenda and sort of the Parks and Green agenda, I think is very exciting.

00:57:53:04 - 00:58:20:14
John Simmerman
I'm really glad you mentioned that, too, because it's one of the themes that I harp on frequently here is that, we do ourselves a disservice if we are creating these wonderful and beloved activity assets, these parks and trails and greenways and pathways. And yet, the only way that people can get there is to have to get into a car and drive there, and there has to be ample parking in there.

00:58:20:14 - 00:58:45:14
John Simmerman
And then there's this all this tension of nearby neighbors. If there isn't, you know, it's like one of the wonderful programs that has recently been, you know, launched in the last few years, from the trust for Public Lands is, you know, the ten minute, rule of being able to have a parks and recreation and trails and greenways within a ten minute walk from somebody's house.

00:58:45:17 - 00:59:20:09
John Simmerman
And when I had them on the podcast, one of the things that I emphasize is to is also thinking about a five minute bike ride or a ten minute bike ride to those locations as well, and adequate facilities at said, you know, trailheads, you know, a, you know, restrooms there and, you know, safe bike parking facilities there so that, you know, somebody can get into nature, enjoy that, use that transportation corridor, but also be able to ride one's bike to that location or through that location, through that facility.

00:59:20:12 - 00:59:38:22
John Simmerman
So I'm really glad you mentioned that, because it it brings up a common theme that many trail towns and active towns are starting to embrace is that you should have access to these wonderful activity assets from your doorstep, get on your bike and be able to get there.

00:59:38:24 - 00:59:43:22
Paul Steely White
Perfect, perfect note to end on. But I'll just add one more thing please do.

00:59:43:22 - 00:59:44:19
John Simmerman
Yeah, absolutely.

00:59:44:19 - 01:00:08:07
Paul Steely White
As you mentioned TPL, you know, trust for public land. And we're so lucky to have them as a partner. We do tons of work with them, especially on the Long Island Greenway. Right, which is trying to extend the Empire State Trail east from New York City all the way to Montauk. And it's such a wonderful project. And, you know, TPL, is also, co-hosting the, the conference I mentioned in and.

01:00:08:10 - 01:00:31:07
Paul Steely White
Yeah. So love, love the work that they're doing. And Open Space Institute got it. I got to mention them to, because that that vision of having green space, that's like networked. And so you don't have to drive a car, right? You can walk or bike. That's happening in Ulster County, right around New Paltz, have a 250 mile greenway trail network that's fast, you know, being implemented.

01:00:31:07 - 01:00:50:25
Paul Steely White
And, it's one of the reasons we actually moved to Ulster County was because of this sort of like flowering of, of this greenway trail network. And so if anyone's interested in riding any of this, also on the, in my talk, website, you can come and to cycle the Hudson Valley or cycle the Erie Canal or two big marquee bike tours this summer.

01:00:50:25 - 01:00:57:22
Paul Steely White
So, multi-day tours, you can see the splendors of upstate New York and the burgeoning Greenway trail network.

01:00:57:24 - 01:01:03:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. I'm going to pull that up right here. So the cycle, the Erie Canal and also the Hudson Valley is right there.

01:01:03:27 - 01:01:07:04
Paul Steely White
If you had it right there. Oh my gosh. Right at your fingertips. Thank you John.

01:01:07:07 - 01:01:15:13
John Simmerman
That's what I do. That's what I do for. Hey, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

01:01:15:16 - 01:01:17:05
Paul Steely White
Thanks for the invitation.

01:01:17:07 - 01:01:31:16
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Paul Steely Wife. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

01:01:31:16 - 01:01:49:25
John Simmerman
And again, if you're enjoying this content here in the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Super easy to do. Again, just hit the join button down below right here on YouTube, or navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the page. Several different options, including becoming a Patreon supporter.

01:01:49:28 - 01:02:10:14
John Simmerman
Patrons do get early and ad free access to all my content. Okay, thank you so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And until next time, this is John signing off but wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers! And again, just want to send a huge thank you to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel financially via YouTube memberships YouTube super thanks.

01:02:10:17 - 01:02:19:17
John Simmerman
As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and joining my Patreon, every little bit adds up and is very much appreciated. Thank you all so much!