Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:29
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. So this is downtown Minneapolis, 1901. We kind of talked about this time period when cycling was transitioning from the the wheelman going out on sojourns to the lakes to, to early workers who were using bikes to get around. And this is a really exactly that point in time when you start to see bikes, not just use on side paths and on trails and, in nature, but in the city for utility.

00:00:26:02 - 00:00:47:23
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, welcome to the Active Sounds channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Peter Bird joining us from Heidelberg, Germany. Peter is actually studying with the Technical University of Eindhoven, working on his PhD and doing studies around the historical nature of cycling cities. And that's what we are going to be nerding out about here today.

00:00:47:25 - 00:01:06:00
John Simmerman
But before we jump into that, I just want to say, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Super easy to do. Just navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the page. There's several different options and every little bit really helps keep this going.

00:01:06:00 - 00:01:16:16
John Simmerman
Keep this content coming to you. So please do what you can to help out. Okay let's get right to it with Peter Bird.

00:01:16:18 - 00:01:21:03
John Simmerman
Mr.. Peter Bird, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns Podcast. Welcome.

00:01:21:05 - 00:01:23:10
Peter Bird
Yeah, thanks for having me.

00:01:23:12 - 00:01:29:23
John Simmerman
Peter. I love giving my guests just an opportunity to introduce themselves. So who the heck is Peter Bird?

00:01:29:25 - 00:02:12:14
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. So, I'll tell you, first of all, I'm actually joining from Heidelberg, Germany, where I live. I'm from the US originally where I worked as a bicycle planner, transportation planner, and advocacy, first in Denver and then working for the for the planning department in Nashville, Tennessee. But I've been in Germany for the last five years, and I'm currently actually working for a, for a Dutch university, for the Eindhoven University of Technology, where I am a PhD researcher, and also the North American coordinator for the Cycling Cities project, which is a kind of historical research, research oriented group that looks at histories of cycling cities around the world

00:02:12:19 - 00:02:30:29
Peter Bird
trying to understand kind of why why it happened in, in some places and didn't develop the same way in other ones with the goal of, of using those historical, historical pieces to guide bicycle planning, urban planning, policymaking today. So joining from Heidelberg.

00:02:31:01 - 00:02:35:24
John Simmerman
How how fabulously and fantastically international.

00:02:35:27 - 00:02:38:13
Peter Bird
Yeah.

00:02:38:15 - 00:02:49:01
John Simmerman
That is fantastic. Well, tell a little bit about your journey. How the heck did you end up there? And especially from, you know, all these other locations here domestically in the United States?

00:02:49:04 - 00:03:12:00
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. So I had an opportunity back in 2020 to do this transatlantic exchange program through the Robert Bosch Foundation. And so when I applied for it, it was before Covid happened or any one really knew anything about it. But then I ended up coming to Germany right in the middle of Covid. So we had to travel with documents and English and French and German and try to see which countries we could actually transition through.

00:03:12:02 - 00:03:31:10
Peter Bird
Made our way to Germany, where he lived in Berlin for, I guess the program was for a year. And, and so I worked with a few German institutions, research institutions, ones that are focused on, on active mobility and bicycle planning policy work. And then after the program finished, my family and I just decided to stay in Germany.

00:03:31:13 - 00:03:40:04
Peter Bird
So we slowly made our transition and spent three years in total in Berlin. And then we've been in Heidelberg for the last, almost going, going on two years.

00:03:40:06 - 00:03:49:24
John Simmerman
Fabulous, fabulous. That is interesting. Did you by chance, attend the velocity in in Leipzig? A couple years ago?

00:03:49:26 - 00:04:01:09
Peter Bird
I didn't, but while I was on my fellowship, I did actually work with, Jill Wagner, who's the, I guess, the title, the CEO for the, for the European cyclists Federation. Oh.

00:04:01:11 - 00:04:01:17
John Simmerman
Joe.

00:04:01:17 - 00:04:11:02
Peter Bird
War and war and. Sorry. Yeah. Jill Warren. So I interviewed her. I worked a little bit during my projects. I'm well aware of that, but I haven't actually been able to visit it in person.

00:04:11:04 - 00:04:28:22
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I only mention that because I, I had to make my way to Berlin and then from Berlin, get on the train and head on, you know, over there and. Yeah. And then I, I went out of my way to do a bike ride from the the new Berlin airport all the way into the city center.

00:04:28:29 - 00:04:30:23
John Simmerman
Boy, that was a wild ride.

00:04:30:26 - 00:04:38:26
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. So I haven't done this, but I'm pretty sure that there is a, like, dedicated kind of cycleway that goes between Berlin and Leipzig.

00:04:38:29 - 00:04:42:15
John Simmerman
That. Yeah. I didn't even. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going to be I haven't.

00:04:42:15 - 00:04:54:11
Peter Bird
Done it but it's, it's pretty. Yeah. Because by train it's maybe an hour. Hour and a half. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not sure the actual distances but yeah there's like a dedicated kind of branded bike trail that goes between the two.

00:04:54:13 - 00:04:58:20
John Simmerman
So I have to ask, how's your German? It's good enough.

00:04:58:23 - 00:05:20:12
Peter Bird
Yeah, I do most of my business in German. Most of my day to day stuff for my work is all English. I'm, at home. It's all English. My wife's American also. But I can do all my official meetings with the government and things I need to do in German. My my supervisor at my university in the Netherlands is convinced in that not totally wrongly, but the between English and German.

00:05:20:12 - 00:05:29:26
Peter Bird
I should be able to also understand Dutch. And so sometimes she gives me Dutch books, which, you know, I can navigate a table of contents and through Dutch, but that's about it.

00:05:29:29 - 00:05:43:08
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Well and, and as I understand it is if you're actually doing transportation related work in the Netherlands, it's pretty much all done in Dutch, I think.

00:05:43:08 - 00:05:59:16
Peter Bird
So, yeah. Yeah, I actually don't work at the transportation level very much in the Netherlands, but I'm I think that is the case, though. I think there are some companies who do international work where they kind of more clearly divide their domestic versus international. But yeah. Yeah.

00:05:59:23 - 00:06:09:17
John Simmerman
So I'm going to pull up the map here just because I'm like Heidelberg, Heidelberg is Heidelberg. So so okay. All right. So let's, you know, kind of.

00:06:09:19 - 00:06:10:14
Peter Bird
Yeah. Yeah.

00:06:10:16 - 00:06:23:12
John Simmerman
Bearings here, we see that, you know, Heidelberg is is boom. Right in here. We can kind of see some of the other countries. You've got Belgium off there to the, you know, the, the West there.

00:06:23:14 - 00:06:45:25
Peter Bird
And we are right on the, what, the eastern edge of the Rhine River valley. So it's kind of German wine country. It's, it's it's Riesling country out here. But we're kind of right between, Frankfurt and Stuttgart and then also the French border, kind of the corner of France that juts over into Germany there, the contested area.

00:06:45:27 - 00:07:10:06
John Simmerman
Yeah, historic. And then you'll see towards the bottom of the the map here, some stars, you know, I've got you know, I've, I've visited, you know, various locations all around. I've been in Koba before France, spent a little bit of time in the black Forest region. I've never visited Heidelberg. What do you like about living in Heidelberg?

00:07:10:08 - 00:07:41:10
Peter Bird
I mean, it's it's beautiful. It's one of the most visited places in Germany, actually, where it's kind of just this little small city, about 130,000 people, an old university town. It's actually the oldest university in Germany. I think it was established in the 1300s, some some time in there. And yeah, it's just this kind of university town that's tucked into the edge of kind of a bunch of forests on one side, and then the more kind of busier, more trafficked cities and then the, the, the Rhine that kind of passes through Mannheim, which is right next to it.

00:07:41:12 - 00:08:01:20
Peter Bird
And so it's a lot in a lot of ways, at this crossroads and the border area between Germany and France, we can get to Paris in a few hours. We can get to Berlin in five hours, get to Switzerland in the same 2 or 3 hours. And so it's situated really well, but it just kind of feels small where I can also, you know, easily go hiking and mountain biking and things.

00:08:01:23 - 00:08:02:17
John Simmerman
Right?

00:08:02:20 - 00:08:04:16
Peter Bird
Yeah. Right around here. Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:04:17 - 00:08:14:14
John Simmerman
And, and you're obviously doing stuff, you know, in the Netherlands and so are you having to jump on the train and make your way over to the Netherlands, you know, fairly frequent.

00:08:14:14 - 00:08:30:18
Peter Bird
Yeah. About every two months. I'm actually going to the Netherlands tomorrow. Oh. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Every two months I go there for a few days and I've got a, you know, a group of people I work with who we usually try to schedule different workshops, things like that, that we're doing together. When I'm able to be in person.

00:08:30:18 - 00:08:33:14
Peter Bird
A few other people are also remote like that.

00:08:33:17 - 00:08:36:11
John Simmerman
And so yeah, you said Eindhoven, right.

00:08:36:13 - 00:08:38:02
Peter Bird
Eindhoven. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

00:08:38:07 - 00:09:01:10
John Simmerman
So if we zoom in, for those of us, for those of you who are watching this here on YouTube, you can see that we're zooming in, on the the Centrum area here of Eindhoven. And we've got the, you know, the famous ring road that goes around Eindhoven there. And, for anybody who has visited Eindhoven, I'm sure you have checked out the Hoven ring.

00:09:01:10 - 00:09:01:28
John Simmerman
You know, the whole thing.

00:09:02:02 - 00:09:05:29
Peter Bird
I, I was going to say your audience, that's probably what they're going to know from Eindhoven is the open ring.

00:09:06:01 - 00:09:29:11
John Simmerman
Yeah. The rendering. And what's amazing too, is that, you know, on Google Maps when you turn on the bicycle map, thing, you just see this like sea of green. There's green everywhere for for cycle routes and all that. That is fascinating. So you're working on your PhD right through the Technical University of Eindhoven, is that correct?

00:09:29:13 - 00:09:30:18
Peter Bird
That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:30:18 - 00:09:31:02
John Simmerman
To you.

00:09:31:03 - 00:09:37:07
Peter Bird
I have about a year left. Yeah. Hoping to finish see MIT by the end of the year.

00:09:37:09 - 00:09:47:15
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about what it is you're actually studying and what you plan on doing, with that pilot. Higher and deeper degree.

00:09:47:17 - 00:10:09:27
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. So I'm, I'm kind of looking at this intersection between history of technology on one side with the technology being the bicycle and then, mobility studies mobilities. And so looking at sort of a social history of how people use bicycles over time, looking back, you know, about 130 years is kind of the point that I'm at.

00:10:09:29 - 00:10:36:04
Peter Bird
I'm going back to the 1890s, really, when bicycle started to appear in any sort of large numbers and cities. But, yeah, you're trying to understand kind of how people use bicycles, what sort of, social status that conveyed kind of how they interact with other mobility options that were available to people at the time to understand in different cities kind of how how we've gotten to where we are in a planning sense, in the sense of just, you know, people biking in cities.

00:10:36:07 - 00:10:58:07
Peter Bird
And so I focused on Minneapolis as a US city, which the group that I work with, this is their first example for North America, even. And so, you know, a lot of times when I present to and mostly present to European audiences, and so I always have to start with a convincing, like, why should we study an American cycling city, you know, like I go to Amsterdam and say, here's why we should talk about Minneapolis.

00:10:58:09 - 00:11:18:24
Peter Bird
And I get a lot of blank stares at first. But what's really interesting to me is all the cities around the world that other researchers in our group are looking at. There are obviously differences and things about it that are novel, but they kind of follow this very similar, hierarchy and introductory of bicycles arriving in cities being used.

00:11:18:27 - 00:11:46:11
Peter Bird
And then just kind of the point of how of how they got to where they are today and how they differentiate based on city. And so actually, if you pull up the graph, that's kind of a good place to start with the images here, I can explain a little bit, because the overall goal for, for the research is to kind of have all of these different case studies of different cities, but then to be able to you policy work, the work of bicycle planners and advocates.

00:11:46:14 - 00:12:06:15
Peter Bird
And so what this graph is, is it doesn't include Minneapolis because I'm still hoping to publish this year the Minneapolis book and volume. But this is a study of, cities across Europe, and then one for Johannesburg, which is kind of the dark red. And this is the modal share of cycling the best that they can actually identify over time.

00:12:06:15 - 00:12:26:07
Peter Bird
So starting, this one starts in the, in the early 1900s. And what you see that's really common in that I see in Minneapolis as well, is this, this rise in cycling, followed by a really steep fall, the stabilization that happens after World War two and kind of slower, but kind of clawing back and trying to to get those numbers up.

00:12:26:10 - 00:12:46:21
Peter Bird
And so it's something that, you know, I see in one U.S. city that I've looked at, but the Johannesburg which I guess I can say for that one, it's it starts on this graph looking like it's just very high and goes down. But if if you look at some of the additional data we found earlier than that, you can keep getting back to the 1890s, it still kind of has this rise that happens before it.

00:12:46:24 - 00:13:12:21
Peter Bird
And so the question is all these across all these cities, cycling plays just a very different role in and how people move around today. And anyone who's traveled through the Netherlands or through Denmark or through continental Europe or anyone else can kind of see these differences. And so it's striking to see how the, the trajectories and the patterns across cities, even globally, that they, you know, they follow us, they follow a similar pattern.

00:13:12:24 - 00:13:36:03
Peter Bird
And that's kind of the starting off point that in that I work with the what counts like that don't register or people who are riding public transit at the time in the form of streetcars, and then people who are walking, which is, I think, still a big blind spot that people, working on transportation and planning issues in cities, that they still have this kind of how to count and understand the role that that walking plays in cities.

00:13:36:06 - 00:14:01:18
John Simmerman
Yeah. What I find fascinating about this chart is, you know, obviously there was a huge shift in technology. So we're talking about mobility technologies here. And the bicycle, you know, basically came on the scene, you know, a few decades, you know, prior to if we're I'm thinking of more of the modern looking bicycle, not the original.

00:14:01:21 - 00:14:09:13
Peter Bird
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of that shift from like the, the penny farthing looking one with the two different size wheels to a bike that looks very familiar to.

00:14:09:18 - 00:14:34:26
John Simmerman
Yes. Yeah. The, the bike that became very familiar to us today. The technical name at the time was the safety bicycle. And it came, came onto the scene, you know, basically at the turn of the century and really started to take off, and be prominent as a means of transport for the everyday man as well as workers and, you know, doing other types of things.

00:14:34:26 - 00:14:55:28
John Simmerman
And very soon the cargo bike came, you know, and because it, it was really seen as a tool to be able to get places and get things to places. And so you saw that kind of happening. But really what's fascinating is, you know, from a technology perspective, you really see that inflection point where it's just the rates just drop off like a cliff.

00:14:56:01 - 00:15:18:12
John Simmerman
And you could totally see that, you know, from the 1940s, post-World War Two on, there's just this steep, steep slide that, that happens. And then, you know, you see areas, you know, like just taking a look at like Copenhagen number four at the top of the chart there, and you see that slide. They also experienced that massive slide.

00:15:18:15 - 00:15:47:06
John Simmerman
But then you also see you know beginning in the 1970s this kind of steady climb back up to be able to bring the bicycle back to where it is now, which is, you know, just like in the Netherlands, it's, you know, a substantial percentage mode share is, is, you know, by bicycle, you know, with sort of an even split between the bicycle and, and, you know, transit and, and then the private automobile.

00:15:47:08 - 00:16:04:22
Peter Bird
Yeah. Those, those inflection points are kind of the first starting point for say historians. But I think anyone looking at this chart, you think when it started rising, when it leveled off and when it starts going down like, well what happened there and why did that happen? And like I said, Minneapolis isn't here. But you see a similar pattern.

00:16:04:22 - 00:16:38:20
Peter Bird
I say the peak is a bit earlier, kind of the 19th or the 19 early 1900s. It doesn't rise as high, which is another question that I started with, but it really does follow that same rise, fall stabilization and then and then regrowth and recovery. Yeah. But one thing I would actually one thing I would actually add is that, we've all seen those, I think really interesting pictures of places like Amsterdam and the what in the 1960s, probably where they're just filled with parking lots or cars everywhere, all that kind of stuff.

00:16:38:20 - 00:16:57:27
Peter Bird
The question and it's always framed as you know, Amsterdam wasn't always Amsterdam, but I think it's important to realize that even when Amsterdam was in Amsterdam, they they still had a total of 10 to 20%. And so you've got these kind of hidden levels of cycling that don't appear as easily, but that they're still there. Well, in.

00:16:57:27 - 00:17:24:09
John Simmerman
The in the story. And the relationship to the bicycle in the Netherlands is a very, very interesting one. And, yes, we had the modernization of the cities and the car being seen as, as modern and appropriate for the future. And then that's where you see that, you know, post-World War two, pre-World War two sort of inflection point there.

00:17:24:11 - 00:17:46:24
John Simmerman
But it's it's an oversimplification to say that, you know, that, you know, you know, this caused that and etc. but really, the fascinating thing was, even like during the German occupation of the Netherlands, they, you know, kind of like went out of their way to, like, break the spirit of the Dutch by taking the bikes away.

00:17:46:26 - 00:18:27:17
John Simmerman
And it's like, you know, kind of hamstringing them. And, and so there is that certain love to it and certainly we saw it in that, you know, in that chart that, you know, many, many, many people were used to getting around, you know, through that mechanism and, you know, through that mode. And so, you know, it is kind of like taking your mobility away because if you're, you know, used to to getting around you, just you look at some of the, the cities like, you know, Eindhoven, right in the middle there of number 12, I mean, you're looking at, you know, 75%, 73% of people are getting round by that, you know, pre-World War Two.

00:18:27:19 - 00:19:11:19
John Simmerman
And it's like, oh, by the way, you're not going to be able to do that anymore. During the world, during the war period. Yeah. It's there's there's a lot that's tied to that. But yeah, yeah, it is interesting too, because your point is very well taken in the sense that, you know, even when you saw that slide of traffic being you know, or I should say the slide in modal share via bikes, but at the same time, the, the, the cars sort of invading the space that took place, you know, during the post-World War Two frame, they still had modal shares that would be the envy of, of any North American city.

00:19:11:21 - 00:19:31:22
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. The kind of friction you can imagine when streets and cities in the Netherlands are really reimagined and rebuilt to, to accommodate all these new cars that are there, and you don't see any you don't see much infrastructure for bikes. A lot of times it's hard to find. Sometimes it's hard to find cyclists sometimes, and on some images it's not.

00:19:31:22 - 00:19:42:20
Peter Bird
There are some really great ones of new highways that are constructed with no cars on them, but that there are hordes of bicyclists on the side of it where you can see them being kind of marginalized to the edge like that.

00:19:42:22 - 00:20:09:29
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that that's, that is part of the story too, is that in the Netherlands, the the cycle paths, the red cycle paths, and all of this was really a manifestation of the post-World War or, excuse me, the, the post 1970s sort of conflicts that were taking place and the desire to start, you know, creating some.

00:20:09:29 - 00:20:43:18
John Simmerman
And so you saw the, you know, the first, couple of segregated paths that were being built specifically to be able to create a network in Delft and in Tilburg and other locations, and then starting to establish that concept of, you know, if we build, you know, this network, we can, you know, start to shift away from that conflict, which really boiled up in the 1970s, you know, overstocked, kinder, more to other types of movements that were happening during that period of time.

00:20:43:21 - 00:20:44:15
John Simmerman
So yeah.

00:20:44:18 - 00:21:09:00
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and you kind of also have to look at, I don't know, two different historical points of building a building cycle path and dedicated cycle or bicycle infrastructure in the Netherlands. Because they were building bike lanes and then in the 1920s and 1930s also and at the time, the people who are actually cycling were very resistant to being pushed to the edge like that.

00:21:09:00 - 00:21:37:28
Peter Bird
And when you look at planning documents, it's a lot of getting cyclists out of the way of this inevitable future of cars. And so I think there's that perspective. But then there's our modern perspective of cycling being something, or bicycle infrastructure being something that is going to elevate cycling and get more people actually writing. And so you kind of have some conflict between, how it was used and in different points in history and how sometimes comparing those, we can kind of misconstrue a cause and effect.

00:21:37:28 - 00:22:01:21
John Simmerman
And, and there's a, there's also a, sort of a conflating of different environments, too, whether we're talking an Amsterdam urban environment or whether we're talking a, a cycle path that exists along a canal getting from one village to another in more of a rural environment. So, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Different things.

00:22:01:24 - 00:22:24:28
Peter Bird
Yeah. Well, like, this is actually a good transition for it because I think one thing that you need is a next step with all of that actual data is a better understanding of who it is, who's actually riding bikes. And cities at different points in time. And, you know, and then everything that we've seen from cities we've studied is that different cities, different cities kind of have, a different gap that bicycles come to fill for people as utility.

00:22:25:00 - 00:22:45:21
Peter Bird
And so in places like the Netherlands, where, you know, a lot of the people who are, who are biking were going from home to industrial work because, you know, work in factories, really because it was too far to walk and the public transit service was either not good enough or was too expensive. And so bicycles become this way to circumvent that.

00:22:45:23 - 00:23:23:12
Peter Bird
And I compare that to what I found in Minneapolis. The picture you get on here is an ice salesman during World War Two, but it kind of solidifies her in this small subset of workers, where it's 100% utility. But, it's people whose jobs kind of require them to navigate streets for their jobs. And you see, you see far less of this, you know, traditional home to work, working in factories, kind of commuting and, and rather, you know, some of the pictures we have on here of, of early bicycle messengers and of or like police officers and tradesmen and things like that, where people are navigating streets for their jobs.

00:23:23:14 - 00:23:30:07
Peter Bird
And it's something that really continues even when it's hard to find a lot of other evidence of cycling in the city.

00:23:30:09 - 00:23:38:28
John Simmerman
Yeah. So and this is a photo, an image from Minneapolis during that time.

00:23:39:00 - 00:23:41:15
Peter Bird
Yep. This is 1946.

00:23:41:17 - 00:23:47:00
John Simmerman
How did you oh so immediately post-World War two, 1946 okay.

00:23:47:03 - 00:23:48:11
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. Tail end. Yeah.

00:23:48:18 - 00:24:07:12
John Simmerman
Yeah. The tail end. Yeah. My my home right here. Built in 1946. There you go. Why Minneapolis when you thought of. Okay, I'm on a study, a city. What was the the reason that you were like, okay, spin the globe and boom, Minneapolis.

00:24:07:18 - 00:24:28:28
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I started with wanting to have just kind of a U.S. city example that would compare to what we've seen in Europe. And I think where Minneapolis is nice. Is that it? It in some ways is this very exceptional example. But then in other ways is a very typical, I think, American city and the layout, how it's, how it develops spatially over time.

00:24:29:01 - 00:24:49:05
Peter Bird
And so I think a combination of that and just the fact that Minneapolis really persistently since then, you know, since around 2000 or so, has been this great American cycling city. I think that there's, probably a lot of debate over whether it takes the top spot or not. Lots of cities contending for it. But Minneapolis is consistently in there.

00:24:49:05 - 00:25:13:23
Peter Bird
It has this amazing trail network that I think few, if any other cities can actually, you know, really, compete with on that level. And those trails are actually the same trails that were built by early, early cyclists at the turn of the turn of the 19th century. And so it has this great story of early trail building, early kind of before we transitioned into, utility cycling and streets.

00:25:13:25 - 00:25:22:06
Peter Bird
But early infrastructure that was in a lot of ways just resuscitated in the in the 1970s. And it's become a backbone of cycling in the city.

00:25:22:08 - 00:25:44:03
John Simmerman
Can I give you my take as to why I think that was a brilliant move as a city? Sure, sure. Because, you know, one might say, oh, okay, well, if you're going to do this, you're probably going to go with like a New York or, you know, a Davis or something like that and, and or even Los Angeles for that matter.

00:25:44:03 - 00:26:05:18
John Simmerman
But I think it's a brilliant move because it's, it's it doesn't fall into that quote unquote narrative of, oh, that's like a coastal elite city. You know, it's this is like a midwest, upper Midwest, you know, it's like OG they have winter there, and yet they still cycle all year round. And so you, you get you, you kind of pushed to the side.

00:26:05:18 - 00:26:23:05
John Simmerman
You know, that immediate gut reaction of nobody rides bikes in winter, blah blah blah, etc.. So that's why I think it's a brilliant, thing is you kind of, you know, push to aside that narrative. Oh, well, that's just, you know, a coastal you place, blah, blah, blah.

00:26:23:07 - 00:26:46:24
Peter Bird
So yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's I think that's totally part of it. And, yeah, we, we would like to see this project turned into a bigger research. A larger research of that includes many more American cities, because at the same way, Minneapolis has one story. And I think to get a better picture, yeah, you'd have to bring a lot in there, but I, I do agree that Minneapolis is a good starting point because of its uniqueness.

00:26:46:24 - 00:26:56:07
Peter Bird
But then also really just because of what you said, that it's something that that people can, I think, more widely attach themselves to.

00:26:56:10 - 00:27:06:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Okay, let's slide on over and take a look at this next image. So this next images from, 1985 still, there in Minneapolis.

00:27:06:22 - 00:27:45:07
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. So a lot of the pictures and the narrative of the people who are bicycling in the city, really going from the 1900s until today are, it kind of shows this friction between people who are cycling really as a, as a choice who are biking is, sort of a lifestyle choice and, and expression. And then the people for whom the bicycle is kind of their main option for mobility, depending on the system that they're in, that early in the 20th century, it's it's a transportation system and mobility system that we're walking and public transit over the top, in the form of streetcars and busses.

00:27:45:09 - 00:28:18:21
Peter Bird
And what we see now or, you know, in a post highway, city and country that autumn mobility is at the top of that, but that bicycles are persistently this, yeah, just a way of moving around for people who who don't have great other options for moving in cities. And that that a lot of times is a conflict with the type of cycling that that we as bicycle planners, as advocates, as, as things like that, that we're contending with this competition over what type of cycling it is that we're trying to prioritize.

00:28:18:23 - 00:28:27:20
John Simmerman
In, and here's, here's, kind of the example that you gave earlier, which is like that. The messenger side. Yeah.

00:28:27:22 - 00:28:45:13
Peter Bird
Yeah. This one's, this one's 1920. And yeah. Again it's, it's the people at the time who their job was to navigate streets. This kid here and I don't know how old he is too young to be working too young to that. He should have been working. But you know, it's just people his job required them to navigate streets.

00:28:45:13 - 00:28:50:06
Peter Bird
And so walking, riding, riding streetcars, that doesn't make sense for that group.

00:28:50:09 - 00:29:23:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. What's interesting too, about Minneapolis is a is a case example. Is that part of what sets Minneapolis aside as one of the most bike friendly cities in North America is a vast network of off street pathways that link up all the lakes throughout the city. It's one of the backbones of the city, and arguably similar to like Boulder, Colorado.

00:29:23:28 - 00:30:01:05
John Simmerman
It's it's really their secret sauce. It's it's like they're it's the thing that really sets the stage for, active mobility is that network of of pathways. The pros and cons to that or that, you know, and sometimes it, it kind of feels like it's mostly a recreational sort of approach. And their weakness, just like in boulders weakness, is that they're on street network of protected all ages and abilities facilities is is kind of, lacking.

00:30:01:07 - 00:30:30:13
John Simmerman
But what's really I found fascinating and I don't know if you found this in your research as well, is that, many of those pathways were established early on in the, in the founding of the city. So there was like a foresight of making sure that that that space around those, the, those lakes were preserved as public access and weren't privatized and, you know, sold off as being, you know, lakefront properties, so to speak.

00:30:30:18 - 00:30:55:03
Peter Bird
Yeah. Yeah. If you could go to there's a map from 1899 that have got in the photos here and it shows exactly that, because you're right, there is this nationwide movement in the US for what they for what wheelman. They say early cyclists at the time with what they called side paths because they were paths on the side of, you know, muddy carriageways or the side of, of rivers, streams of lakes.

00:30:55:03 - 00:31:13:19
Peter Bird
This is a time before there was much of a road network, or at least one that you could depend on. And so this map from 1899, shows all of these cycling routes in the Twin Cities. And so at the time of this, there were 200 miles of side paths across the Twin Cities. Yeah, you can zoom in here.

00:31:13:19 - 00:31:37:10
Peter Bird
And each one of them has kind of concentric circles in each, each, each circle represents a one mile, a one mile radius from downtown. And so it's it's one of my favorite maps I found just because it has so much great information in there. The, the the number red numbering on there shows how they graded the the quality of the paths for the type of paths, steepness, that kind of thing.

00:31:37:13 - 00:31:59:00
Peter Bird
And you can see the density of this network. This is something that building side paths was not unique to Minneapolis or to the Twin Cities, but what was unique is them coming under government control, that they were, that a lot of the funding came from, from these early cyclists, these early Wheeler men who paid like an annual fee for their bike tags.

00:31:59:03 - 00:32:23:05
Peter Bird
But the city itself central and the central is way collected that constructed them. And so they actually held on to the ownership of those of the side paths as public property. And that's something that's pretty unique to to Minnesota and into Wisconsin. And so what it means is even when the side paths went away, it's, you know, they turned into walking paths or horse paths or park land or whatever, that they weren't privatized, they weren't sold away.

00:32:23:07 - 00:32:41:04
Peter Bird
So the 1970s come along and everyone's interest in cycling again and bam, they can they can take this land and it's easy to just repave it. And they've got this network and they've added on to it since then, kind of made urban versions of trails, but they've got this backbone to start with. It's a really unique point for Minneapolis and kind of the upper Northwest.

00:32:41:11 - 00:32:42:03
Peter Bird
Yeah.

00:32:42:05 - 00:32:52:10
John Simmerman
Fascinating stuff. And yeah, you can actually see some of the red, circles around some of those lakes, right? In that area there too. So yeah, that's fascinating stuff.

00:32:52:12 - 00:33:00:02
Peter Bird
Yeah, a lot of it was just kind of these are wealthy cyclists who lived in the cities, because that's where you lived. And they wanted to find ways to get out to the lakes for recreation.

00:33:00:04 - 00:33:20:13
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting too, because when we when we look at a and the other famous path that I want to, address of course, is the Midtown Greenway, and that's represented here. This is in, in the year 2000. So 25 years ago, a quarter century ago.

00:33:20:15 - 00:33:27:14
Peter Bird
I know it makes me feel old when I have to count back to 2000 that I don't think is that long ago, when.

00:33:27:17 - 00:34:01:11
John Simmerman
And this, of course, was an abandoned railway corridor. That was one of and again, if we were to look at the off street network of paths that that Minneapolis has, this is one of the crown jewels that it has is an absolutely beloved activity asset in the city. But it's also a critical connector because it it gives you the opportunity to drop down here, you know, zip on through, get to a meaningful destination, jump on up and and get to your your different locations.

00:34:01:17 - 00:34:26:15
John Simmerman
The other great thing now is that we see, Tod developments, happening along this corridor. And, I mean, the other Tod, not transit oriented development, I mean transit trail oriented development. Yeah. There where you see, really cool things happening because people want to be set up. They want to live next to where they want their business, next to this amazing activity asset.

00:34:26:17 - 00:34:47:03
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah, there's I think just a lot of layers to to that story and to the, to the image right here that. Yeah. The Midtown Greenway. I mean that's something that people around the country that you anyone who's interested in biking, you think of the twin Cities in Minneapolis, you think of the Midtown Greenway, that is this connector between an already pretty robust and dense network of trails.

00:34:47:05 - 00:35:13:19
Peter Bird
But it allows you to to, to move to navigate and really around and between highways without having to cross the street level for many times that it's this kind of magical connector. But at the same time, I think that your point about spurring development is another one of those kind of double edged swords that it's it's great to have more dense development along these, these, trails and byways and things.

00:35:13:19 - 00:35:53:00
Peter Bird
But I think it also opens up, the idea of bicycle infrastructure as a bigger part of transportation infrastructure as kind of going along with displacement. There's a long history in the US of infrastructure being something that, you know, you caused is a hard word, but, yeah, being being correlated to that and. Yeah, yeah. When you, when you read newspaper accounts at the time as well as since 2000, that this a lot of the connection that you have from neighborhood, neighborhood newspapers and I think that that photo there that, that also kind of shows some of those frictions of the people who are cycling.

00:35:53:03 - 00:36:35:22
John Simmerman
Yeah. Well, and that's one of the things that we, we obviously deal with when we talk about gentrification and we sort of conflate, enhancements to investments in communities and enhancements to the public realm as causing displacement, you know, because that's what happens with the word gentrification is it gets conflated with displacement. Because we, you know, every city needs to continually invest in its in every neighborhood continues needs to continue to invest in itself and not allow itself to just disintegrate through entropy into disarray.

00:36:35:24 - 00:37:02:03
John Simmerman
You know, that's not what we want. We want investment in the area, we want to gentrify, and we want to be able to do that. But we don't want to necessarily have, displacement of people who would prefer to stay in place. And so that's one of the tensions that obviously exists because we don't we don't need to have, you know, that that tagline of, you know, bike lanes or white lanes and stuff like that, where it's driving people out.

00:37:02:03 - 00:37:16:05
John Simmerman
That's not the point is we, you know, want to be able to have the investment in a community. And this this isn't unique to active mobility and bikes. I mean, this is technology. Again, you know, it's one of the challenges that we have and the tensions.

00:37:16:07 - 00:37:41:08
Peter Bird
Yeah. There's some there's some interesting historical parallels that I've found specifically between Minneapolis and Rotterdam, which is one of the cities that I, that I do a lot of comparison between, we're starting in Minneapolis, that, in this, this period of 2000 until about 2015. You see, the modal is the modal share of cycling increasing dramatically in this the same period where they're building a lot of this infrastructure.

00:37:41:08 - 00:37:57:29
Peter Bird
The you know, Midtown Greenway is kind of a early piece of that, but a lot of bike lanes and then protected bike lanes. And you see that reflected in more people cycling. But around 2015, they keep building that. But the number of people, at least as a mode share, kind of flattens out, you know, up and down a little bit per year.

00:37:57:29 - 00:38:19:01
Peter Bird
But for the most part it stays, really stays about that level. And what's interesting is that the same thing happened in Rotterdam in the kind of late 19th, late night in the 1990s, where they had to have a realization that they were building infrastructure. But at some point it stopped really getting more people to actually ride bikes.

00:38:19:04 - 00:38:44:22
Peter Bird
And so they shift their strategy where they start kind of doing more of a circular, method where it's, yeah, getting kind of building, building the idea of cycling through ways other than infrastructure to get more people on bikes. And then the next, you know, semicircle of that is building infrastructure to support that. So kind of the idea that you're continually building infrastructure for the people who are already biking.

00:38:44:24 - 00:39:03:21
Peter Bird
And so you have to have both sides of that. And so, yeah, I agree that the answer isn't to just not build things and not not improvements, but just to recognize the limited nature of infrastructure itself, because I think it's it's something that as planners and engineers, it's really easy to fall back on this idea that, you know, if you build it, they will come.

00:39:03:24 - 00:39:09:03
Peter Bird
And that's something that I attached myself to working in the field. And I'm much more wary of that now.

00:39:09:05 - 00:39:39:10
John Simmerman
Well, it's as I, I try to this is part of my keynote presentation that I deliver, on active Towns, when I talk about creating a culture of activity within communities, is it is you absolutely have to build it. Meaning the infrastructure. But building it is not enough. It's like, yes, build it and they will come. And the there is a certain, you know, portion of the population that's already primed and wet and ready and waiting for that.

00:39:39:10 - 00:40:03:03
John Simmerman
But I equate it to what I call the hardware in the software. Partnership of where the hardware is, the infrastructure. But you have to back that up with the software, which is all of the other, programs and initiatives and awareness campaigns that activate the space, and, and, and bring it into existence as well, so that that's all part of that.

00:40:03:10 - 00:40:30:10
John Simmerman
Now, this is a photo from 1901 in Minneapolis. And it really is a I love this photo. I mean, this is like the photo. This is this is the photo that goes along with my mug of streets of for people. And this is what I'm talking about is that before we allowed the automobile to completely overrun our public realm, our streets were for people.

00:40:30:12 - 00:40:54:11
John Simmerman
And that's what's, you know, beautifully identified here. Now, if I hadn't said that this was, you know, Minneapolis and I just, you know, said, you know, that this is just a city, it could have easily been a Rotterdam because until World War Two, you know, Rotterdam was was completely obliterated and bombed and destroyed, by the Germans during that period of time.

00:40:54:13 - 00:41:30:15
John Simmerman
And then when it rebuilt, it rebuilt under a modernist sort of car first initiative. And to your point that you just made earlier of a few decades later, there was that inflection point of realizing that what we were doing was not the wisest thing, because we have this sort of dead environment of car centered design. And they have been, over the most recent decades, been on a mission to reverse the damage that they caused by building, you know, under modernity of drive everywhere for everything.

00:41:30:18 - 00:41:36:24
John Simmerman
But walk us through this series of images from Minneapolis, because this is core to the research that you're doing.

00:41:36:24 - 00:42:02:25
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. So this is downtown Minneapolis, 1901. We kind of talked about this time period when cycling was transitioning from the the wheelman going out on sojourns to the lakes to, to early workers who were using bikes to get around. And this is a really exactly that point in time when you start to see bikes, not just use on side paths and on trails and, in nature, but in, in the city for utility.

00:42:02:28 - 00:42:29:05
Peter Bird
And what I would also call actually just a second. But the other one, what I would also call attention to is that it's not just that this is pre car, but this, this a lot of ways is a very different kind of definition of what a street is and what it's used for, that people are obviously walking and traveling on it, but it's less of this moving people from A to B, and it's something that was used as a public space as much as it was for transportation and mobility.

00:42:29:07 - 00:42:45:12
Peter Bird
And so you see people walking, crossing wherever they want to. It's this is before really before engineer or before, traffic engineering and urban planning had developed as professions. And so it's a point in time where streets are public places as much as they are actual transportation.

00:42:45:14 - 00:42:48:03
John Simmerman
In other words, they really were for people.

00:42:48:06 - 00:42:58:15
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a whole history of parents sending their kids to go play in the street. And a lot of ways, like playgrounds were developed because kids got kicked out of streets.

00:42:58:15 - 00:43:24:15
John Simmerman
And I don't want to paint this with too much of a, of a brush of this being, like, all wonderful and perfect and blah, blah, blah. I mean, most of these streets, for the most part, were unpaved in many cases, many of them had horse shit all over them, and, and that would get pulverized and turned into like, a pollution.

00:43:24:15 - 00:43:51:07
John Simmerman
And so, yeah, we get it. It wasn't we're not saying that this is like Shangri la, and perfect, but it was, to your point, these were where you would run into people and you would, you know, you'd be able to come together, on my ass. And, and this is kind of cool. What's really interesting, too, is that it's it's obviously removed by many, many decades.

00:43:51:07 - 00:44:05:25
John Simmerman
But the the image that we see here from 1985 on Nicolet is very similar in the sense that, you know, we've got a just a mass of humanity in the street.

00:44:05:28 - 00:44:34:14
Peter Bird
Yeah. Yeah, I think that I mean, the 1980s were right after the highway construction, urban renewal, white flight, a lot of the industrial and jobs flight out of the city. And so a lot of ways you start seeing these, you know, bicycles as just utility for people getting around. You get some of the cycling cultures that I think I think of as being very, very American, of people who are using bikes kind of on their own and in the cities.

00:44:34:14 - 00:44:49:16
Peter Bird
And a lot of ways. And there's a lot of this, yeah, reclamation of streets and mobility is very separate from how experts intended any of that to actually work. And, you know, a lot of a lot of them are kind of pushed to the side where they can do their own thing.

00:44:49:16 - 00:45:16:06
John Simmerman
But what's funny, too, is and I think it was in 2013, I attended an Open Streets event in Minneapolis. I don't think it was on Nicollet, but it could have been. And this reminds me of that Open Streets event where, you know, it was like the cars shut down to or the streets are shut down, the cars and people are able to come out and, you know, convene and rollerblade and ride bikes or just.

00:45:16:08 - 00:45:43:10
Peter Bird
Occupy space. And I think, I think that open space is a really a really cool alternative to the, like, very strictly organized structure that you see, you know, coming out of historically out of places like the Netherlands and Denmark. Yeah. Yeah. This picture here, this is, see, this one was 1907, I think. And what you see is the same like technology change in the streets, how people are using streets.

00:45:43:14 - 00:46:12:18
Peter Bird
You see the bicycle, you see the car, you see the street car, you see horse drawn carriage. You still see a woman just walking through the middle of the street. And so it's kind of this, this intermediate period where streets really were still public places, but you had vehicles that and drivers who wanted to go quickly on them, who were trying to figure out how you kind of how do you how do you put a new technology into a very, into an older type of mobility structure in the city.

00:46:12:20 - 00:46:37:29
John Simmerman
And thereby we start to see that tension starting to come up. You've got the new the interloper, the new technology that has an internal combustion engine and can, you know, move along at a pretty brisk pace, and not be constrained by a railroad track line, you know, and, and can go anywhere and, yeah.

00:46:38:04 - 00:47:04:15
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. One of the most interesting findings, I think, especially for my European colleagues and kind of comparing Minneapolis to other European cities we've looked at, is that I feel like it during this time period, a lot of the reason that cycling didn't develop as, as high of numbers and usage as European cities is actually because public transit was so good and the city was so walkable that it's a city that was built around, around milling.

00:47:04:15 - 00:47:31:15
Peter Bird
I mean, that's right, downtown was the old lumber and then grain mills, and the people who lived there lived within a mile or two, and so they could easily walk to work. They didn't have didn't have use for bicycles for that type of commuting. And then the streetcar, how that was organized, was basically as a sort of public monopoly where their private companies, but that they had to get local city permission for any sort of rate changes.

00:47:31:15 - 00:47:51:26
Peter Bird
They were responsible for maintaining the streets right of way they used. And so they, they, they remained artificially affordable, really up until World War Two. And that's something that, you know, you kind of see this what I've seen in Minneapolis is, lower class workers who are walking mostly, and then the middle class who are mostly riding streetcars.

00:47:51:28 - 00:48:10:29
Peter Bird
And so the the gap that's left for bicycles is this kind of small subset of workers. And that's something that that really endures through an until highway construct or until today. But you see the break, after highway construction, the city that's moving from a walking and public transit city to one that's really built and defined around cars.

00:48:11:02 - 00:48:16:23
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. And this, brings us to 1923.

00:48:16:23 - 00:48:18:23
Peter Bird
So, yeah. 1923.

00:48:18:26 - 00:48:20:01
John Simmerman
Yeah. That evolution.

00:48:20:08 - 00:48:41:28
Peter Bird
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. All three of them. I don't know if I said before, but they're all the same street, not the same location. They're all Nicollet Avenue. And here you start to see that organization based around cars put into play. There's there's no car infrastructure at it. You have the policeman who's doing this stop and go. But you see what's more familiar with us today of cars parked on the side.

00:48:42:00 - 00:49:06:14
Peter Bird
The driving on the right side is when they start kind of, organizing how to make left turns at intersections. So before they rebuilt the streets, they had to kind of redefine what a street is and how it should function. And I would direct anyone interested in this transition to the work of Peter Norton. I'm not sure if you've had him on your podcast before and then, but he's he's written three times.

00:49:06:14 - 00:49:34:23
Peter Bird
Okay. Yeah. Amazing, amazing. But he writes in a lot of detail about how this how this change happened socially before it did physically. And you can kind of see this on streets, especially during the 1920s and 1930s, that this organization happens. And they and it was you read newspapers, they had to convince people of it. They have to sell it in the same way that planners and engineers tried to sell highways to people, and that people, people resisted this.

00:49:34:25 - 00:49:54:00
Peter Bird
They resisted this. And you can see on the edges of this picture that, you know, sidewalks that have just hundreds and hundreds of people crammed into them, that I think, you know, you first look at a picture like this and you think, oh, cars came to the city. This is the beginning. But there are many, many, many more people on this street than there are cars.

00:49:54:00 - 00:49:56:14
Peter Bird
And drivers. They're just pushed to the side.

00:49:56:16 - 00:50:02:08
John Simmerman
They're pushed to the side, as well as clustering to to try to get across the street as well.

00:50:02:11 - 00:50:03:25
Peter Bird
Yeah, exactly.

00:50:03:27 - 00:50:16:27
John Simmerman
Asking permission. Can I please come get across? Can I please, and another shot of of, somebody using a bike for work.

00:50:17:00 - 00:50:18:00
Peter Bird
A police officer.

00:50:18:02 - 00:50:20:06
John Simmerman
Yeah. Back to 1905.

00:50:20:08 - 00:50:42:25
Peter Bird
So policeman 1905. And you start to see these groups, the people who are, you know, who's whose job requires them to navigate the streets that they they ride bikes, they eventually start getting either adding motors onto their bikes or buying motorcycles. But it's this really specific use case. That is a small subset, but it's something that endures for a long time.

00:50:42:27 - 00:51:02:15
John Simmerman
Right? Right. So you're working on this PhD and you're doing this, this study. You say you've got about a year or so left, to, to this process. What's what's the end result, what's what's going to be produced from this work.

00:51:02:17 - 00:51:30:09
Peter Bird
So the piece of it that I'm actually working on mostly right now is a, comparison between Minneapolis, Rotterdam and Johannesburg. And so I'm comparing, based on some of the themes that come out of those cities. So the one that I'm currently working on is, focused around mobility alternatives. So understanding, you know, during different points of time, the different kind of mobility hierarchies that existed in cities, what place bicycles served in those, how that changed over time.

00:51:30:09 - 00:51:53:00
Peter Bird
And then, how those histories kind of define the roles that the different modes have in the cities today, with the idea that that this is a longer historical approach, I think can can benefit people who are working in, planning policy work to do a comparison that's not just based on the infrastructure in different global cities, but the process that it took to actually get get to that.

00:51:53:00 - 00:52:10:18
John Simmerman
And I'm going to pop on over to your LinkedIn page, folks, you can find Peter out on LinkedIn. And here he is. And this is the the post, for cycling cities. The Minneapolis experience. Walk everybody through what what this is all about.

00:52:10:21 - 00:52:34:03
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. So for each city that we're doing is case studies. Like I said, Minneapolis is our first from North America. We we publish those as books that are, you know, 50, 60 pages. They're not big books or anything, but they're very richly illustrated with with photographs of maps, with, newspaper and archival research to kind of tell the story or the experience, if you will, of, of cycling in that city.

00:52:34:03 - 00:52:59:24
Peter Bird
And so they all fit into, you know, to the, to the Global Cycle Cycling Cities program. But each one of them kind of enriches that story. And especially with Minneapolis, we hope that this is a jumping off point into being able to do similar projects for, for, you know, 10 to 12 American or North American cities to kind of understand what those have to tell and thank you for bringing this up here.

00:52:59:27 - 00:53:19:20
Peter Bird
I'm doing a crowdfunding campaign to help, to help us be able to publish this. And so anyone who's interested, I would really encourage you to donate what you're able to on here. And you can also secure early copies of the book. You can help us to print additional copies that we can donate and to schools and to libraries locally.

00:53:19:23 - 00:53:47:25
Peter Bird
Initially in Minneapolis, in the Twin Cities and the branching out from there. But it's something that helps us to one get the story out there, get it in more hands. And then to be able to build this into a larger project that I think the more city experiences we're able to to, to do and then to connect together, the richer that becomes and the more we're able to actually guide policy today based on deeper historical understandings of change.

00:53:47:28 - 00:54:14:23
John Simmerman
Right, right. And you can see that you can read more about the actual project. Is all that in there? Why it matters. Understanding and understanding the American context in in this. And and like I said, just there is the whole point of doing this is hopefully so that we can pave the way forward, if you'll pardon the pun, to a better future for, for our cities.

00:54:14:25 - 00:54:46:18
John Simmerman
And, and I'll paraphrase something that, that, Professor Dan Peter Koski from Oslo met University talks about in his book. Cycling city is is really it's not about creating bike friendly cities. It's what the bike can actually do for our cities and our livability and our environment. So it's just a tool towards hopefully creating a more livable and desirable and comfortable place.

00:54:46:21 - 00:55:04:28
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. I think despite what those of us who love bikes think, there's nothing inherently magical about a bike but what it offers people. And I think what people are able to do with it is were that, there's there's really powerful stories come in and that's something that's been happening for over 100 years and hopefully will continue to happen.

00:55:04:28 - 00:55:08:26
Peter Bird
And, in a more prominent position for years to come.

00:55:08:29 - 00:55:16:27
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Is there anything that we haven't covered yet that you want to make sure that we, leave the audience with?

00:55:17:00 - 00:55:47:07
Peter Bird
I think maybe one thing that we haven't covered would be to, Yeah, to think about and understand kind of the different approaches that cities around the world have taken to prioritizing cycling. But I think that in planning, we focus a lot on the very northern European approach that segments different users and different groups. But I think what we what we're starting to see is, you know, things coming out of Paris and Barcelona and South America and, Japanese style of organizing streets.

00:55:47:07 - 00:56:17:19
Peter Bird
There's just there's there are lots of different ways to, to approach mobility in cities and infrastructure is one lens to see that through, but that all of the decisions that you see, that you see on streets, you see and policies that you see and how people use technologies that that's something that, that there is a there are cycles of intentionality that built that and, and that we can continue to do that ourselves and learn from each other.

00:56:17:22 - 00:56:43:10
John Simmerman
So from some of those cities that you just, named off, are there any that or areas of cities and or areas, are there any that really, you know, bubble up for you as a, as an example of, well, this is a really important, different way of approaching this compared to what the typical North American, the typical Northern European approach.

00:56:43:12 - 00:57:14:24
Peter Bird
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's something like the Bogota model is a really interesting one for, for Americans to look at because it's something that, like we talked about, focuses around open streets, where it's not, you know, eventually it builds infrastructure for it. But a lot of ways it's providing this space for people to experience a new way of moving around in a way that's not connected to, to work or kind of the stressful travel, but it's something that on, on Sundays, on weekends, they just open streets up and tell people to move it, move around how you want to and experience something different.

00:57:14:26 - 00:57:33:11
Peter Bird
And I think that's a way to, yeah, to bring people into to biking and to walking and and to rollerblading and, you know, whatever else you want to do. In a, in a low stress kind of way that it kind of eases that transition and how people choose to move around. And then that's something you can build from that.

00:57:33:11 - 00:57:36:03
Peter Bird
It kind of builds a culture of cycling and walking in cities.

00:57:36:05 - 00:58:03:21
John Simmerman
Sure, sure. Yeah. And culture is an interesting, you know, thing to, to look at. I mean, it's one of the areas that I spend a lot of time in. I'm my background is in behavior change and creating cultures of activity. And it it's always interesting when you see the different permutations and see different environments sort of developing into a different culture and approach to it.

00:58:03:21 - 00:58:37:10
John Simmerman
So you mentioned Japan. So you take a look at, you know, a place like Japan where the cultural norms of, you know, mobility and independence with children and being able to get around, their communities and a completely different approach to, to streetscapes, is that like an example, or are you like digging in and looking at the differences between, like a Tokyo approach to, you know, streets and how it encourages active mobility?

00:58:37:13 - 00:59:03:04
Peter Bird
I, I would be interested in doing that. I'm not doing that right now. But I think that I think I think Japan represents a place that's from someone who doesn't know very much about cycling in Japan, actually. But that, yeah, has has been successful in a lot of ways at elevating cycling and doing that on the streets that look very different than how we in Europe and in North America have done that.

00:59:03:07 - 00:59:12:00
Peter Bird
I think that I saw recently that a lot of city announced their 2027 conference, maybe that's taking place in Japan.

00:59:12:02 - 00:59:14:22
John Simmerman
I didn't know I didn't I didn't notice that. That's fabulous.

00:59:14:23 - 00:59:37:21
Peter Bird
It's one of the provinces that has, I think, something like 25% most show where it's kind of similar levels to these great European cities, but it's just a big blind spot, I think, with an advocacy and and planning. And so maybe the takeaway for me, it's just that, having a broader understanding of what cycling does and can look like in other places can, can give you more things in your toolbox.

00:59:37:24 - 01:00:11:12
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And, and really, different, different approaches at that and all that. I, you mentioned Paris and I really see Paris as more of the same sort of North American and Northern European approach just on steroids. And in terms of the fact that they're just implementing quickly and and, you know, it to me, it's it's a really strong message that the mayor is sending a really strong message that, hey, we've we know we have a problem.

01:00:11:12 - 01:00:33:11
John Simmerman
We've got a problem. I was there for the very first car free day that she did in 2015 to document, that first Sunday, you know, car free streets day. And, you know, the quote in, in the newspapers leading up to that day is, you know, hey, we've got a problem when you can't even see the Eiffel Tower through the smog.

01:00:33:13 - 01:01:00:23
John Simmerman
And so we she knows that we have to do this. And then she has for more or less, a mandate to move forward by the voters who continue to vote her back into office. And then even this week, earlier this week or last week, it's early this week, it's Monday. And last week, the voters, over the weekend went to the polls and approved a whole bunch more streets are for people initiatives.

01:01:00:23 - 01:01:21:25
John Simmerman
So the Paris voters are voting at the ballot box to improve the quality of life. And so I really see that is is not necessarily fundamentally different than what's happening in North America and northern Europe, as much as it's just really on overdrive, really moving fast.

01:01:21:28 - 01:01:44:09
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably a fair assessment. I think that it's happening much faster than we typically see. And there's a strong just, you know, environmental really air quality motivation for doing that kind of a combination of dedicated bicycle infrastructure, but then also limiting limiting cars and driving in different ways, either on streets or based on kind of license plate numbers entering the city, all that kind of stuff.

01:01:44:12 - 01:01:51:02
John Simmerman
Yes, yes. Yeah. Very analogous. Yeah. And school streets, you know, the school streets initiatives that they're doing there too.

01:01:51:02 - 01:02:14:02
Peter Bird
So yeah. Yeah, yeah. One thing I actually see a lot of in Germany, which I wouldn't say this is a great departure, but it's taking streets that have bike lanes and actually just converting them to, to adhere called I'd rather like the bike streets. And so they're removing the dedicated infrastructure and essentially just using traffic calming to, to achieve the same thing.

01:02:14:04 - 01:02:16:25
Peter Bird
And so I think that's something that we're seeing more of.

01:02:16:27 - 01:02:44:15
John Simmerman
And we're seeing that in, in cities like a new threat. But their general rule of thumb is that they usually don't make that transition away from protected and segregated infrastructure to a Fleet Street, there in the Netherlands, bicycle priority Street and less the number of cyclists are outnumbering the drivers 8 to 1. And then they're like, okay, then this makes sense because this is the primary user of this.

01:02:44:15 - 01:02:48:29
John Simmerman
And actually what we need is more space because the cycle lanes are too crowded.

01:02:49:01 - 01:02:55:16
Peter Bird
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that I didn't know those specifics in the Netherlands, but probably that's a good lesson to have.

01:02:55:21 - 01:02:56:18
John Simmerman
Yeah.

01:02:56:21 - 01:03:09:20
Peter Bird
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Then traditionally the bike lanes are kind of moving people out to the edges. And when you really want to prioritize and want a street that can handle it, give them the street and get everyone going that speed.

01:03:09:22 - 01:03:29:22
John Simmerman
Exactly. Give them the street and and move on. Peter, this has been so much fun. Now we could nerd out for ever, but I know I need to, let you go. And I know you've got, travel plans, coming up, later this week. Again, Peter, thank you so very much. Best of luck on your your studies and on the fundraising for the book Cycling Cities, folks.

01:03:29:29 - 01:03:38:13
John Simmerman
Be sure to check out the link. I'll put it down below in the show notes and in the video description below. Again, Peter Berg, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

01:03:38:15 - 01:03:40:26
Peter Bird
Perfect. Thank you too. Have a good day.

01:03:40:28 - 01:03:55:14
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Peter Bird. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and be sure to ring that notification bell.

01:03:55:20 - 01:04:14:04
John Simmerman
And again, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns channel and are finding it valuable and interesting, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Super easy to do. Again, just navigate over to Active Town Start org. Click on that support tab at the top of the page, and there's several different options including becoming a Patreon supporter.

01:04:14:10 - 01:04:34:21
John Simmerman
Patrons do get early and ad free access to all my content. Again, thank you all so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers! And again, just want to send a huge thank you to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel financially via YouTube memberships YouTube super!

01:04:34:21 - 01:04:44:05
John Simmerman
Thanks as well as making contributions to the nonprofit and join my Patreon! Every little bit adds up and is very much appreciated. Thank you all so much!