Transcript exported from the video version of this episode - Note that it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:29:05
Dr. Natalia Barbour
My older daughter used to go to school on skateboard last year and the kids tend to test different mobility modes and then see what sits their needs and their lifestyles and their identity. So that's been very cool to watch as a neighborhood effort. And I also think that the parents, when they know that their kids are cycling and riding a scooter, they tend to drive a little bit slower because it's always not someone else's kid.

00:00:29:07 - 00:00:39:20
Dr. Natalia Barbour
If it's my kid, I'm going to look out for other kids and I can feel that happening around as well. So it's a more like developing an ecosystem.

00:00:39:23 - 00:01:04:05
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman and that is Dr. Natalia Barber, back on the podcast. Once again, we're going to be getting an update from her, from her new home in Orlando, Florida is a good one, but it is long, so let's get right to it with Dr. Natalia Barber. Natalia, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:01:04:05 - 00:01:06:07
John Simmerman
Once again, welcome.

00:01:06:09 - 00:01:17:22
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Thank you for having me. And again, shout out to everyone who watched the last episode. I know time is scarce and they really appreciate everyone's time who decided to spend it with us.

00:01:17:24 - 00:01:32:05
John Simmerman
Yes, absolutely. And what I love to have my guest do is just kind of introduce themselves to the audience. So take this moment to, you know, just kind of quickly introduce who you are. Who is Natalia?

00:01:32:07 - 00:01:58:27
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Well, I am an assistant professor at University of Central Florida, and I specialize in transportation, smart cities, travel behavior and safety. I did my Ph.D. at the University of South Florida, my postdoc at MIT. And then I was, for a brief moment, less than two years, close to it at two U. Delft in the Netherlands. And now I'm back in the U.S. So there has been some traveling.

00:01:59:00 - 00:02:10:07
John Simmerman
Just a little bit. Yeah, you will. A little bit of the logistical challenge of of moving a family of four, you know, around.

00:02:10:10 - 00:02:14:12
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Just swapping continents a couple of times. But I mean, who's counting?

00:02:14:14 - 00:02:17:25
John Simmerman
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. And so how long have.

00:02:17:25 - 00:02:18:28
Dr. Natalia Barbour
You been.

00:02:19:00 - 00:02:21:16
John Simmerman
Back in Florida now?

00:02:21:18 - 00:02:23:19
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Almost exactly one year.

00:02:23:21 - 00:02:59:04
John Simmerman
Almost exactly one year. Okay. Fantastic. And and we do our best to to you know, really welcome, you know, folks back to the United States. So when you when you made it back to the United States, you were rudely welcomed with a hurricane, Ian. That was Hurricane Ian.

00:02:59:07 - 00:03:19:15
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. She was working in the first months after we moved back. And although we lived in Tampa for quite a few years, you know, they don't happen that often, that that's what you expect in your first couple of weeks of moving back. It was an eye opening experience, although I did have experience to cycle in the rain in the Netherlands.

00:03:19:15 - 00:03:26:00
Dr. Natalia Barbour
No, I did not go cycling in that. This is. Yeah, yeah. At two levels above my comfort zone.

00:03:26:02 - 00:03:49:16
John Simmerman
Well and one of the be the biggest joke to of course you know when it comes to bike riding riding bikes in the Dutch is that so often people are going oh yeah but it's flat there and oh it's not very, very hot, you know, and it doesn't get all that cold. So there's always these excuses, but it's windy there, it blows and it rains there and they just keep riding through it.

00:03:49:16 - 00:04:12:29
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So yes. And you know what? I feel like I am starting to explore the other side of extreme cycling in Florida because it's over 100 degrees, 80, 90% of humidity. And we're going to talk about it in this episode. So from one extreme, the hail and the rain and the wind to humidity and heat waves.

00:04:13:02 - 00:04:24:27
John Simmerman
And yeah, and blue skies. And so you traded that that rain and that environment. And then this is the sky right now. Is this the downtown Orlando area?

00:04:25:00 - 00:04:57:05
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes, it's downtown Orlando. And I must admit I do not come and visit very often because we live about 20 minutes outside in this little neighborhood called Lake Nona. So everything we need is within that neighborhood. And we chose it very strategically to be able to drop the kids off and, you know, do our daily errands. So I still have to explore more of downtown Orlando, although there are a few pictures from my explorations in the past.

00:04:57:07 - 00:05:04:05
John Simmerman
Interesting. Okay. And are the campus that you're at, are you at the main campus?

00:05:04:07 - 00:05:22:00
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes, I'm in the main campus about 20 minutes from where I live, but I do a hybrid. I work a little bit from home on my research and then I go to campus for the meetings, which is all working out very well for me. And then cycling during today.

00:05:22:03 - 00:05:45:19
John Simmerman
So now, now, now I have my bearings and so so yeah Lake known as down here in the in little red squiggles down by the Orlando airport and then up here is where the star is is is kind of where the university campuses it's one of the biggest university campuses in the entire United States. I was blown away by how massive it is.

00:05:45:22 - 00:06:20:06
Dr. Natalia Barbour
It is it is very big. With almost 70,000 students. Wow. Yes. So you can when you enter the campus, you can definitely see how enormous it is and you think you're there. But then you still have to drive for a few more minutes to make it to your building. But what surprised me, of course, I'm not going to create this narrative that Orlando is heaven for pedestrians and bicyclists, but I will point out that there are amazing people here who tend to push the narratives that it is possible, change is possible.

00:06:20:06 - 00:06:39:23
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And when I got to campus, I didn't really know what exactly to expect. And then I saw a lot of people on their skateboards E-scooters and bicycles. It's not at the scale that it's done in more sizable, walkable communities, but it is visible enough to notice right?

00:06:39:23 - 00:07:00:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. And in fact, you have a couple of photos here, you know, of campus and the fact that, yeah, we've got we've got some bikes, you know, there, you know, it's not fair to compare to two Delft. I mean to you Delft has one of the busiest cycle tracks in all of the Netherlands that goes right into campus.

00:07:00:20 - 00:07:33:14
John Simmerman
And it's something that I've filmed multiple times over the years. And and so yeah, it's we can't compare it's not fair to compare it that way but what I will say is I was I was very impressed with very early on after after you arrived, you know, in Orlando and sort of settling in to this, I started seeing images from you of that like this of of the tremendous network of pathways that, you know, is there in that environment.

00:07:33:14 - 00:07:56:11
John Simmerman
Talk about this. You know, how how much of a lifeline has this been for that transition? Because we talked about in the first episode, first time I had you on about culture shock. And so I'm sure there you went through a little bit of bit of culture shock, you know, coming back to Florida from Delft. But then you you had access to some of this stuff that must have helped.

00:07:56:14 - 00:08:23:20
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. And my experience in the Netherlands has shifted a lot of expectations for day to day operations in the US. So when we were coming back, I knew exactly what I wanted for my kids that I don't want to be stuck in the car line. So we chose this area just because it has bike lanes and there are multiple so that there for pedestrians and cyclists and kids who are on e-scooters to school.

00:08:23:23 - 00:08:55:09
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So of course for North American standards, it's very bikeable, very walkable. That's my daughter on a scooter. And I must admit, because of the heatwaves, both of the kids have e-scooters now. And so on the hottest days they go to school on their e-scooters and they absolutely love it. So we switch between bikes and e-scooter and walking. So I was very impressed with how this new neighborhood and it's above about maybe ten, 15 years old, how it's been developed.

00:08:55:10 - 00:09:26:08
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. Shout out to coach Balto. Almost the bike less. We're starting here. Something new. Yeah. And I was very impressed how this area was developed with a sort of wellbeing and access. We have little downtown that is completely accessible via bike lane and it's almost I mean, you have to cross a few streets, but other than that, you can just keep cycling or scooting.

00:09:26:10 - 00:09:42:10
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And then we have also autonomous shuttle in the neighborhood. So in addition to all these crazy micro-mobility modes, there is that autonomous shadow on demand that you can get in the app and you can request and it comes, Oh, we got to talk about.

00:09:42:10 - 00:09:46:10
John Simmerman
We'll come back to the alligators later. Yeah, we have a photo. There it is.

00:09:46:12 - 00:10:16:04
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. So that's where it picks you up. And then you hop on and then it takes you to our little downtown area. It's not very big, but there are a few restaurants, a few places to visit, and it goes really slow for announced. And there is an attendant on board. So it's still in there very early stages, but that's a testing bed for new technology, which also has been a nice perk to experience, you know, just hopping on and off autonomous shuttle.

00:10:16:06 - 00:10:39:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, it's you know, it's interesting, too, because, you know, one of the other things that you have in this area or in this segment of photos is you've got the autonomous shuttle, but then you also experienced the sensation of the golf cart culture that exists. And so you've got your golf carts here.

00:10:39:10 - 00:11:09:10
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. So this is Halloween, believe it or not. And all these golf carts are part of your costume. So it's it's a vibe, literally. And then for Christmas, most of them are electric for Christmas, there is a golf cart parade through the neighborhood. And a lot of parents, because there is a small I mean, small, low speed neighborhood streets, a lot of parents drop off their kids at school and golf carts.

00:11:09:10 - 00:11:31:27
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And I know there has been a lot of discussion and they use certain applicable already and improvements to ability of golf carts in low speed neighborhoods and on low speed streets. So, yeah, so that's that's Halloween. It's completely out of control. Nothing I've ever seen before.

00:11:31:29 - 00:11:34:04
John Simmerman
That's so funny.

00:11:34:07 - 00:11:36:16
John Simmerman
Once again, culture shock.

00:11:36:19 - 00:11:37:14
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Again.

00:11:37:17 - 00:11:52:12
John Simmerman
The reverse reversed the Aldershot. It's also notable that you're you're right there next to Disneyworld too and Epcot and all of that so these are like in your backyard.

00:11:52:14 - 00:12:19:18
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yeah so we're in the Disney backyard and it's also a big part of everyone's afternoon. So you just go to Disney. I watch the fireworks with a lot of families do and it's been very wonderful to have the experience and being able to experience this so frequently because, you know, Orlando metropolitan area is filled with amusement park amusement parks, and there are more of them than we're even capable of visiting.

00:12:19:18 - 00:12:26:14
Dr. Natalia Barbour
But we're slowly going down the list and maybe in a few years we'll be able to see more. Yeah, yeah.

00:12:26:16 - 00:12:35:06
John Simmerman
In, in, in quickly. I notice that you you very quickly befriended some of the local neighbors here.

00:12:35:08 - 00:12:37:23
John Simmerman
I know.

00:12:37:26 - 00:13:03:19
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Here's the thing. You don't only have to worry about your pets and kids being hit by a car, and now you have to worry about them being attacked by an alligator. And although this is very rare, you probably have higher probability of getting struck by lightning. It's still a very unique view that you have when you walk around your neighborhood, because those are the retention ponds.

00:13:03:19 - 00:13:25:29
Dr. Natalia Barbour
They're mostly manmade for the hurricanes and the rainfall to get the water to not flood the neighborhoods, but then here or there you have some friendly or unfriendly reptile come out. They're absolutely gorgeous. I am truly amazed by how massive they are and how beautiful. Yeah, here is one.

00:13:26:02 - 00:13:40:17
John Simmerman
In and for the listening only audience. These are a couple of photos of again, some of the local, some of the local wildlife, a couple of medium size alligators.

00:13:40:19 - 00:13:52:24
Dr. Natalia Barbour
If you're not used to seeing them regularly, even the little one seems a little bit a little bit outside of your comfort zone. But yes, they're not the biggest ones that you can see in the wild. Yeah.

00:13:52:29 - 00:14:16:07
John Simmerman
Yeah. So I do want to go back to the bike bus photo here, and this is basically almost a bike bus and a shout out to again, Sam Balto, coach Sam Balto, who has been on the Active Towns Channel several times now since he came to visit here in Austin. I took him for a bike ride here in the Austin area.

00:14:16:10 - 00:14:43:21
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about that though, from the standpoint of what your experience seeing and what the kids are experiencing in terms of, you know, if they so choose to be able to to ride their bike to school or anywhere else for that matter, because bike based doesn't just have to be about getting to school, can be about, you know, kids having the freedom to go pretty much wherever they want.

00:14:43:24 - 00:15:11:17
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Having that designated infrastructure to schools and connecting neighborhoods. Of course, it's not at the scale that you can see it in a very sizable cities, but it's enough for us to go from point A to point B without major interruptions. Is life changing for the kids, particularly for us? You know that route to school, when you see that car line and my kids are just like, boom, boom.

00:15:11:20 - 00:15:42:17
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And for that matter, there are a lot of kids who walk and bike to school and scoot from their little ones from the elementary school up to the high school, because that's how that community was designed. So it gives them the freedom, not even to mention that there is studies that say that if kids walk, bike or have moderate commute or moderate activity in the morning, it increases their cognitive performance at school.

00:15:42:19 - 00:15:55:10
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So in addition to their physical activity that they get in the morning, they get to wake up, we get to talk, check in every morning. They also arrive to school refreshed. So we are very much maintaining the Dutch lifestyle.

00:15:55:12 - 00:16:23:02
John Simmerman
You know, I love it. And again, for the listening audience, we're looking at a photo here of your daughter on a bike. And the pathway that she's on is just this really nice, comfortable, ultra wide. I'm assuming it's a multi-use path, but as I understand it, there's a whole network of these pathways, you know, throughout your neighborhood as well as throughout many of the neighborhoods in the Orlando area.

00:16:23:04 - 00:16:48:29
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. Particularly in our region, they are connected to grocery stores. For example, if you have to go to a doctor or dentist, you can hop on your bike and go there. Not that many people writing it, but I do hope that over time it will become more and more popular and I really see that change. When we arrived last year, I think they were only it was only one cargo bike.

00:16:49:01 - 00:17:14:29
Dr. Natalia Barbour
We got the second one and now I see at least four or five more. And I know I don't I don't want to put myself on the back and bike. Okay. We're willing to change exactly. So we put our kids on the back on the days that we're really running behind, like rushing to school. But I think there's something about people adopting new transportation modes and the neighbors seeing it as like, okay, if they're doing it, we're going to do this.

00:17:15:01 - 00:17:30:02
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And it slowly starts to trickle in. And every time I go or every Muslim, I don't want kids from bikes going to school. So I do have that impression. Maybe it's a wishful thinking or maybe the change is slowly happening.

00:17:30:04 - 00:17:58:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, in this particular photo is your cargo bike parked in front of the coffee shop. And so yeah, being able to jump on that bike and be very conspicuous about doing it, but not in your face. It's not like, you know, preaching or shouting out that you're doing. You're just kind of going about your life and, you know, doing some normal routine things that you got used to doing in Delft.

00:17:58:17 - 00:18:24:12
John Simmerman
You try to continue doing and there's that attractant. And this is something that a Brandon last American Fetzer and I talk about is that concept of you know, just getting out there and doing it. And when you're on a especially a cargo bike, people stop and talk to you and want to know more because there is that curiosity factor of Wow, you mean you can do this stuff without being in a car?

00:18:24:15 - 00:18:25:25
John Simmerman
Tell me more.

00:18:25:27 - 00:18:48:21
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yeah. And then people literally stop my daughter and I when we ride I like that it cool bike. She looks so comfortable. Here was our trip to the grocery store is still a minority, but we're working on it. Orlando is working on it and it's been a pretty wonderful experience. And I know there is this notion here or there that if you want to live a bikeable lifestyle, you should move to Europe.

00:18:48:24 - 00:19:11:16
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And if anyone moved to Europe, there would be no change ever happening. So of course we can only do it at this scale that we are allowed to. I still drive and it's impossible not to drive in a North American city, at least most of them. But not all the trips need to be drivable. So for those that I don't have to drive, I just hop on my bike or I walk.

00:19:11:19 - 00:19:23:02
Dr. Natalia Barbour
I am still considering the e-scooter because of the kids now, so maybe I was just switching between. But the are different ways of getting to do your daily errands.

00:19:23:04 - 00:19:49:28
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And since we're talking about, you know, going and doing the daily things, I will prove and validate for the audience here that one of the things that you experienced a lot when you were in Delft, of course, is the rain. And we have proof here that it does rain in Orlando as well. And we also have proof that your children do not dissolve in rain so they will not melt.

00:19:50:01 - 00:20:08:17
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. Don't dissolve into rain in Delft and the same in North America. It's validated by experience. And then you see the people are blurred into the background. They're also not dissolved. So it is very much it's much it holds true for all continents. So I highly recommend.

00:20:08:20 - 00:20:36:23
John Simmerman
Yes, highly recommend. You can you can you can walk in the rain. You can bike in the rain. And I was going to say I was going there so blurry in the background, I was thinking maybe they were dissolving, but you know, they're not. Yeah. Okay. That's just the camera. Well, this has been so cool. Just kind of catching up and and, you know, really sort of understanding what that transition has been like for you.

00:20:36:26 - 00:20:54:16
John Simmerman
But we're also going to talk a little bit about work and some of the fun stuff that you've been doing. So you have been very, very busy getting up to speed with your, I'm sure, your teaching duties as well as research. Tell us more about what you've been up to.

00:20:54:18 - 00:21:17:20
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes, I always say that I am a full time biker and have four and a half time researcher, so I've been very busy in research and I am not going to talk about all my research, but the research that particularly relates to cycling, happiness, bicycle helmets. Yes, we will talk about bicycle helmets. New research that we recently published.

00:21:17:28 - 00:21:53:24
Dr. Natalia Barbour
I know it's controversial, but we will try to be as scientific and objective as possible. So there are a few papers that I recently published. The first one was on Happiness and Cycling and the other one was on previously mentioned bicycle Helmet. So in the first one we looked at whether people are more or less likely to cycle after the pandemic, and the research was published with Professor Mannering and we developed an advanced statistical and econometric modeling to see and observed and captured the shifts in cycling.

00:21:53:27 - 00:22:24:26
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And in our sample we had 7421 responses. So it's a large sample. It came from open data source. And even when we looked at the descriptive statistics, we found that 14% of the respondents stated that they will cycle more after the pandemic, compared to only four who responded that they will cycle less. So that's a huge difference. Just over a relatively short period of time.

00:22:24:28 - 00:23:06:01
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And the survey also asked about the reasons, and they were very interesting why people have shifted their mobility or their willingness to cycle more after the pandemic. And out of those 14%, which accounts for a over the slightly over 2000 respondents, 555 said that they realized they liked biking. So what happened? Essentially what I can speculate that during COVID, people were able to experience and start using modes that they would normally not use for a variety of reasons, but often section open streets, less car traffic.

00:23:06:07 - 00:23:36:18
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So then they experienced cycling and the like. Oh, we really like it, which is very optimistic. The second reason is the second most frequently chosen reason, perhaps it should be stated, was that they planned to bike more and they know in their neighborhoods, which goes back to the open street initiatives. So in our sample we found that that actually has work that people are willing to travel locally on their bikes.

00:23:36:20 - 00:24:03:05
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And the last one goes to finances and the people who responded said that they found cycling as being an inexpensive way to travel. So when I looked at these three reasons, our most frequently chosen ones, I was like, Wow, I mean, such a huge change in such a short period of time because that was just during the pandemic, so relatively short.

00:24:03:07 - 00:24:26:27
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And then we also looked at who changed and what were the shifts among the respondents. And interestingly, historically, women tend to cyclists, but we found that after the pandemic we were able to capture a shift, particularly of women without vehicles, that they will have higher probability to cycle, which is very optimistic because that's how they can meet their transportation needs.

00:24:26:29 - 00:24:58:07
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And if you think about one car in a household that goes a lot of times, unfortunately to one person and sometimes it's not a woman. So that was one out of one or more findings. The other one goes to utility of cycling, both workers part time and full time had a higher probability to cycle more. So perhaps people who started to cycle during the pandemic feel like, okay, we really like if you want to commute to work.

00:24:58:10 - 00:25:22:05
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So that's also true for our model. And the last two of the interesting findings that I want to share there more and I highly recommend you visit and check out the paper is are related to the psychology of cycling. So we found that people who tend to be environmentally friendly tend to have higher probability of cycling more after the pandemic, which is established in the literature.

00:25:22:12 - 00:26:02:04
Dr. Natalia Barbour
But the second one that people who tend to be happy so having a higher life satisfaction also tends to cycle more after the pandemic, which was a very extraordinary finding that I was able to confirm that statistically that people with high level of life satisfaction will indeed have a higher probability of cycling. So that's in a nutshell, that research paper, it's much longer and I try to condense it to as two to the most interesting points, but it was a very nice experience to be able to combine my passion for the environment with statistical models.

00:26:02:07 - 00:26:33:18
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. And yeah, I mean it's really, I think it's really fascinating to think of the fact that, you know, we all were just without our permission exposed to this massive experiment that was the COVID experience and with the pandemic happening. And so it really sort of gave us this this weird sort of life reset of, oh, well, what is our streets for?

00:26:33:20 - 00:27:00:03
John Simmerman
And, you know, and it was it was is very interesting, especially with it somewhat in the rearview mirror now to think about, okay, well, what has stuck and what has happened and so is very encouraging and interesting to see the researchers, yourself included and in Fred as well, you know, diving into this and trying to better understand what are people thinking or are they holding on to this.

00:27:00:08 - 00:27:08:07
John Simmerman
And it'll be interesting to see, too, in in another five years, you know, what's the long term tail effect of of this?

00:27:08:09 - 00:27:35:22
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. And, you know, if you think about COVID, everyone was experiencing the same same meaning that government regulations, the lockdowns, whatnot. Of course, there are some differences because some of what some of the people were essential workers, whatnot. But overall, it was a very uniform playing field in terms of where you can where you cannot go. And it didn't impact everyone the same way.

00:27:35:22 - 00:28:04:13
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So that's what we're proving even under the most similar conditions that we could possibly create in terms of mobility and leading places and accessing public transport and decreased frequency, still, people behave differently. And that was the idea for us to capture how that evolved during the pandemic. And of course, we'll have to see in five years, hopefully that will stick, that mobility will stick.

00:28:04:15 - 00:28:28:04
John Simmerman
What was the most surprising result of of this? Because I mean, as a researchers and academic researcher, you don't necessarily go in with, you know, a set set of of, you know, thoughts necessarily. I mean, you're you really are trying to, like, understand what the data is telling you. What was the biggest surprise that you that came out of it for you?

00:28:28:07 - 00:28:53:26
Dr. Natalia Barbour
I think that level of life satisfaction, overall happiness, as I call it, although it wasn't defined in the survey as to happiness, but overall level of life satisfaction that it was linked to an increased probability in cycling post-pandemic. I think that tells us that transportation is so much more than just accessing your workplace or school or going to the grocery store, it impacts your life.

00:28:53:26 - 00:29:18:27
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And we didn't check that direction. We only checked how our life satisfaction impacts that propensity to cycle. But it's that dual relationship that always has fascinated me how you can go and be stuck in traffic and then be all angry about it, or you can just cycle to the grocery store and listen to the birds singing or even stop to smell the roses.

00:29:19:00 - 00:29:37:01
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So we're learning that transportation is not only about the travel, but it's also about public health, about safety on the roads, about our mental well-being. So there's so much more that is that transportation defines.

00:29:37:03 - 00:30:00:19
John Simmerman
And it brings it brings back to my mind our first conversation as well. And I wanted to bring this this up is that if we do a little snapshot of where we're at on your your first episode is in fourth place, of course, behind Jason Slaughter with not just bikes is his three appearances on the on the channel here.

00:30:00:21 - 00:30:30:00
John Simmerman
Yeah you're at 21,000 views but the reason I want to hone in on this is the thumbnail and what I named the thumbnail was freedom and joy. And so that kind of taps into what you were just talking about is I think that experience that, you know, sort of came out you were looking at happiness in and people sort of gravitated towards this, this bike, you know, this this thing that we kind of all remember from our childhood.

00:30:30:03 - 00:30:40:27
John Simmerman
But in part of the reason why there's fond memories of it is it expressed freedom and joy for us. Talk a little bit about that. Did that really kind of bubble up and come through in the study?

00:30:40:29 - 00:31:10:05
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes, definitely. And another reason for writing the study is, you know, when you're on Twitter, you get different comments and different responses. And I try to stay away from engaging because it's very difficult to change Someone's opinion in 240 characters. So I decided to take the approach of writing and publishing research to actually make a substantial shift and make even maybe not even substantial, but incremental shift in what people study.

00:31:10:05 - 00:31:33:29
Dr. Natalia Barbour
What do they find? What is the science behind cycling and why is it even worse to study? Because our life well-being and our life satisfaction are all linked to this. And that was a primary objective of this work to prove that it's about freedom, about the joy. And it's definitely worth exploring further.

00:31:34:01 - 00:31:46:24
John Simmerman
You know, and in fact, you mentioned Twitter and earlier today or I guess this was yesterday, you posted this out on what used to be formerly known as Twitter. Now is ex.

00:31:46:27 - 00:31:48:24
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Already through on apologist.

00:31:48:26 - 00:32:15:23
John Simmerman
Oh, my gosh. But it's you also said it's not about how fast you go, but it's who you're going with. And these are qualitative measures. When we talked about freedom and joy and happiness and in interacting with our community and interacting with our loved ones, it's it's not about how fast you're going. It really is about, you know, who you're with and that experience that you're able to have.

00:32:15:26 - 00:32:40:05
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes, That was a moment yesterday. We're going out to dinner. I'm powered by dessert. My daughter is powered by electricity. It will all evened out at the end, but it was such an amazing experience for our family as a whole unit. And then there was my husband and my older daughter writing behind us. So we get to have these experiences and look at the fields, the seasons changing.

00:32:40:05 - 00:32:59:08
Dr. Natalia Barbour
That's something that you feel you're a part of as opposed to watching through a glass as you travel in a car. So it is shifting family dynamics in a way because of those little micro moments that you get to experience throughout your day.

00:32:59:10 - 00:33:18:26
John Simmerman
Yeah, well, since I do have Twitter X on my screen right now, I'm going to shift gears and highlight the fact that you are currently hiring a Ph.D. student, or at least you were as of the 15th of of August. Is that still the case? Are you still looking for a PhD student?

00:33:18:29 - 00:33:41:03
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. Let me do some PR come work with me. We're going to have a lot of fun. So if you're interested, I am hiring a Ph.D. student. I will start reviewing applications in the fall. So in a few weeks it will be still open for about 3 to 4 weeks. And then I'm going to review CVS and start doing interviews.

00:33:41:08 - 00:33:51:15
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So if you're interested to work on safety and travel behavior, I highly recommend applying all the information that's in front of you. Or you can just send me an email.

00:33:51:18 - 00:33:52:11
John Simmerman
Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:52:11 - 00:33:53:13
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Thank you for bringing it up.

00:33:53:13 - 00:34:00:08
John Simmerman
Jon Oh yeah, absolutely. My, my, my pleasure. When do you think you'll start reviewing those applications?

00:34:00:11 - 00:34:04:29
Dr. Natalia Barbour
In about three, four weeks. So before the end of September?

00:34:05:02 - 00:34:20:04
John Simmerman
Towards the end of September. Okay. Very good. Excellent. Yay! That's awesome. I saw that. I was like, Oh, we got to talk about that. That's fun. Is this going to be your first PhD student there at UCF or is this okay?

00:34:20:04 - 00:34:41:23
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Very good. Yeah, my first as a first supervisor, not as a committee member. That's one of the most meaningful things that you can do as a scientist to help educate and to be a part of someone else's journey. And I don't know if I've mentioned it before, I don't think so. I've wanted to be a professor since I want to since I was like eight years old.

00:34:41:25 - 00:34:57:00
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So having this privilege to watch someone make that journey and graduate with their Ph.D. or a master's degree and write papers with them, I think it's the funnest part of my job.

00:34:57:02 - 00:35:27:18
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Okay, so let's pop on over and talk a little bit about the helmet study that you did. I usually because helmets are so triggering in so many ways, they usually take the time to mention that, you know, my helmet use is always context sensitive. I'm in a I have the privilege and fortune of living in a neighborhood where I don't feel as if where I need to ride to is a dangerous trip.

00:35:27:20 - 00:35:48:19
John Simmerman
And so I choose not to wear my helmet on that trip. Very similar to a Dutch approach to using a helmet. However, if I'm on my mountain bike or if I'm on my racing bike, I always wear my helmet. So it's very context sensitive. The other that I take a moment to pause and say is that I don't care what you do.

00:35:48:21 - 00:36:10:09
John Simmerman
If you want to wear a helmet, wear helmet. I don't care if you don't want to wear a helmet and you don't wear a helmet, that's fine. Just that's cool. What I have issue with is when people start blaming and shaming people. And so, you know, I, I just put that out there ahead of time, too, to let you know, folks know, you know, don't even go there.

00:36:10:09 - 00:36:53:10
John Simmerman
And if you start victim blaming, you start you know, shouting at people. You know, I silence those criticisms on my challenge channel because I find them to be disruptive. And as a public health person, it doesn't serve our purposes because, you know, as as you will share from your meta analysis, there's some good information here. But at the same time, we also know from a public health actuarial perspective is that there's some negative externalities to requiring people wear helmets and just the dangerous zation of, you know, presenting riding a bike as something that is, you know, needing to have safety equipment.

00:36:53:12 - 00:37:14:07
John Simmerman
I like to joke and say, yeah, I fall frequently. And and oftentimes I'm wondering, you know, since when I'm falling, I probably should have a helmet. But the context is I'm usually trail running when I trip and fall. And I'm like, wow, that's probably most likely time I'm going to hit my head is when I'm out doing a trailer.

00:37:14:10 - 00:37:27:25
John Simmerman
I'm not going to wear a helmet when I'm doing my trail run. Okay, So dive into this study that you did and explain for those people who may not know what is a meta analysis.

00:37:27:27 - 00:37:58:01
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes, I I'll explain everything we've done in this study. So here's the reason why. One of the reasons we decided to do this study and it's done with Carlson Booth, who is a student or perhaps graduated recently, a doctor at he and myself. And the idea that I had in my head was because I was not in favor of helmets, I was very much in.

00:37:58:04 - 00:38:25:21
Dr. Natalia Barbour
No, I think it's all the infrastructure and it is a big part of it is infrastructure. So of course, taking the infrastructure out, I wanted to see particularly, let's say in a hypothetical situation, you ride your bike on an empty road and you fall and there's no impact, there's no dangerous situation, there's no vehicle. Will that helmet really make a difference at such low speeds?

00:38:25:21 - 00:38:55:08
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So that was where that curiosity came from. And of course, my experience of living in the Netherlands and then living in the U.S. and seeing how different countries approach that helmet paradigm. So this is a literature review paper. So we did not do meta analysis, but what we did, we reviewed others and compiled their findings. So we looked at different studies and we talk about different ways to even assess the effectiveness of helmets.

00:38:55:10 - 00:39:21:18
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And one of them is a case control study. That's where you compare the outputs of cyclists with and without helmets. The other one is a cohort study where you follow a group of people. Then before after, and that's what you just mentioned. When there is a helmet policy, how does the after look like after the helmet policy, that mandatory hammered policy was implemented?

00:39:21:20 - 00:40:08:18
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And the last one is the meta analysis that combines multiple studies and multiple regions. So it looks at crashes that's happened in the U.S., Australia, Netherlands, Poland, and it tries to look for high level findings. And we examined multiple meta analysis in our paper and we find that, but particularly in all cases, actually in all cases, helmets were found effective to decrease injury, even if you're just riding your cycle, you're riding your bike by yourself on a bike pass and you do not hit or you do not you're not hit by any vehicle.

00:40:08:20 - 00:40:36:01
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Some studies say that head injuries decreased by 60%. And of course, we're not talking here about the infrastructure that prevents that injuries from happening. We're talking about the cases that you have to cross the road even on a very safe infrastructure and you interact to vehicle. And there helmets are essentially very important to decrease that fatal and serious head injuries.

00:40:36:03 - 00:41:15:09
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So those are usually a result of a crash between a cyclist and a higher speed motor vehicle because those are the highest injury severities. So that's basically was our finding that they are effective. They will not, of course, it's not about the infrastructure. We did not take that into consideration. But what has changed is even in my neighborhood, I initially did not have my kids wear helmets because it's a separated pass.

00:41:15:11 - 00:41:42:03
Dr. Natalia Barbour
But after I did the study with my coauthors, I changed my mind because I said if I have all this evidence because they have to cross the street, that too. It's not super continuous. You have to cross and there is a potential interaction and the drivers don't necessarily expect a lot of cyclists or pedestrians. So in that you don't see my kids, they have a higher chance of decreasing the injury severity.

00:41:42:06 - 00:42:06:17
Dr. Natalia Barbour
But as you said, I fully agree. And again, this was a scientific data and scientific findings. So now we're switching to my opinion because those are two different. There is me as a scientist and there is me as a parent and a human being. So I do agree with you that it's context specific. If I was personally cycling on a shared road with vehicles that tend to go higher speeds, I'm wearing that helmet.

00:42:06:19 - 00:42:33:17
Dr. Natalia Barbour
If I'm cycling here and I am, I'm generally risk averse. So I stop. I don't take risks, I don't wear helmet and it's my choice. And everyone, as you said, is entitled to that choice. However, scientific findings say that even in cases that there's less risk in case you were hit by a vehicle or by the driver who's not paying attention, you have higher chances of reducing your head to injury.

00:42:33:19 - 00:42:34:03
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yeah.

00:42:34:05 - 00:43:09:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. And in recently we've been seeing even even just in the last couple of weeks, really kind of stratifying where from a global perspective, from a public health perspective where protective equipment, injury prevention and protective equipment shows up in a hierarchy of priorities. And we see that it's like it's the really it becomes the the last resort. What we really need to be doing is making safer environments.

00:43:09:09 - 00:43:48:25
John Simmerman
And that's that's the infrastructure that's really creating an environment where those dangerous interactions are much less likely to occur. And then that that final step, once you have, you know, those things taken care of, is, okay, I can now make my choice of, you know, do I choose to wear any protective equipment or not? And again, my biggest beef that I have in in terms of the dialog that ends up happening is, you know, where, you know, that dialog, that discussion goes is is over.

00:43:48:27 - 00:44:08:26
John Simmerman
A crash occurred and it's like, oh, but did was the pedestrian distracted where they wearing high viz clothing did they have appropriate lighting did a person on a bike was the person wearing a helmet or not. To me that's just straight off victim blaming. And so I don't really have much tolerance for that.

00:44:08:28 - 00:44:41:20
Dr. Natalia Barbour
I fully agree. It's like you you have your watch still and no one is asking you why did you wear your watch? And in the message that we were trying to put out is that if you are in situations where there is a high probability of unsafe crossings or unsafe interactions, they can make a difference. And that was, again, the primary objective of the study, which I think that if you don't read the entire paper, you may get the wrong impression.

00:44:41:20 - 00:45:11:20
Dr. Natalia Barbour
But I'm here to clarify that infrastructure comes first and then it's to protective equipment. So we're definitely on the same page. But also last point I forgot to make, we also looked at lapses like in the lab, like for testing, and we found that helmets helmet is not equal to a helmet and usually they use the testing uses 50% men head size and the body dimensions.

00:45:11:22 - 00:45:36:16
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So that shape of the head and the size plays a role in how protective a helmet can be. But the testing and the designs are done for men 50% head. So this is a serious equity issue that we were able to capture in that domain that I wanted to point out is that was also an important finding of our study.

00:45:36:18 - 00:45:40:00
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And yeah, there's still work that needs to be.

00:45:40:02 - 00:46:09:27
John Simmerman
There's and there's entire papers that go into exactly what is tested, how it is tested. And if you really want to go down that deep, dark rabbit hole, there's a lot of eye opening things that take place. And in fact, most helmet manufacturers will literally tell you that it has not been tested. These these products have not been tested in print, proven to protect somebody in a collision with an automobile.

00:46:10:00 - 00:46:29:29
John Simmerman
And that's their little, you know, fine print that they have there, because it's true. They didn't actually test that mainly because it would be impossible for them to do that test. So risk. Exactly. And risky, too. Now, you've also written a chapter recently, so talk about this.

00:46:30:02 - 00:47:00:08
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yet so this is the environmental side of transportation that I was able to contribute to. I wrote a Chapter ten. It's on Transport in the Environment. That's a textbook that is designed for undergraduate level students that who are just entering the transportation research and wants to learn more. The book has multiple chapters and different topics from policy, some safety and then environmental sports.

00:47:00:11 - 00:47:34:11
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So in the book chapter, I point out several areas of the biggest emissions and then of course try to encourage cycling as an alternative to decreasing dose emissions and also emphasize the non emission pollution which come from heavy truck tires or SUV tires that heat up and then the cars go really fast and then there's increased pollution. So I also talk about the other side of a negative environmental impacts of transportation, particularly focusing on automobiles.

00:47:34:13 - 00:48:03:06
John Simmerman
Yeah, I'm glad you mention that too, because that's usually the thing we think about typically when we think about pollution and the climate and when we think of global warming, we think of, okay, yeah, CO2 and the emissions. So we're thinking tailpipe emissions. But in reality, if we just go, you know, electrify the entire motor vehicle fleet, we're still going to be in a challenge.

00:48:03:06 - 00:48:37:17
John Simmerman
A we still have the safety challenge that's out there. If we're just replacing internal combustion engines with electrification engines. But you still have the the the issue of motor vehicles. Cars are still cars. And these big trucks, you know, they're still trucks. And so you still have the challenge of congestion, you still have the challenge of traffic, you still have the challenge of risks of injury to a squishy, soft humans that are out there, as well as car on car collisions that take place.

00:48:37:19 - 00:49:05:02
John Simmerman
But the other thing that takes place is what you just mentioned there to briefly, which is the fact that with these heavier vehicles, electrified vehicles, you still have the particulate, the ultrafine particles coming off of the tire wear as well as brake wear. And so you still have a lot of externalities, unintended consequences, if you will, of continuing from the motor fleet.

00:49:05:02 - 00:49:13:22
John Simmerman
And so I like to say, yeah, we need to electrify our motor fleet, our motor vehicle fleet, but we also need to decrease the number of vehicles on the roads.

00:49:13:25 - 00:49:42:18
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Yes. And I also bring it in the book that I found one research that looked at pollution from tailpipes, particularly CO2. And then projected how it's going to go over the next decades. And the graph started to go down at some point because of all the policies and regulations that have been made to remove fossil fuels from powering our vehicles.

00:49:42:21 - 00:50:10:21
Dr. Natalia Barbour
But there is the other side of the story that the particulate matter and the brake dust and the non emission related pollution is hugely and regulated it. And that's one of the issues that even if we can what you just mentioned, if we can get rid of the CO2 emissions, it's still very difficult without the right policy tools and regulations to bring down the other types of emissions.

00:50:10:24 - 00:50:35:11
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And there are some estimates that that plastic from tires, you know, the microplastic is in the oceans and that number is very worrying. And one study talked about it. So from my research that I did on the top of this is not trivial, however, still unregulated. So hopefully in the coming years there will be more emphasis put on the other side of emissions.

00:50:35:11 - 00:50:47:28
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And then there's the newest emission. I have your car and that's just another thing. So there is a lot that can be done. And of course, one of the solutions is decreasing driving mode switch.

00:50:48:03 - 00:51:10:08
John Simmerman
Yeah, it's it is interesting and I'm glad you mentioned noise there too is that sometimes we think of oh well yeah the noise of the motor vehicles of Oh yeah that's the engine, it's the exhaust, it's, it's the acceleration. It's like yeah, up to a certain level. But once cars get up to speed, it's really the friction noise.

00:51:10:08 - 00:51:25:29
John Simmerman
It's the noise of the tires that kind of takes over. And so, again, simply electrifying. The fleet isn't going to deal with all of the noise pollution because the heavier the vehicle is, the louder that noise is as well on the roads.

00:51:26:01 - 00:51:36:23
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Absolutely. And the higher the speed. And I think there is a graph in the book where I actually show that at some point there is a little difference. So, yeah, absolutely.

00:51:36:26 - 00:51:48:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. You know what else have we not yet talked about that you want to leave the audience with in the last 10 minutes or so?

00:51:48:05 - 00:51:52:15
Dr. Natalia Barbour
I think we talked about it. Oh, I think we can keep it short and sweet this time because last.

00:51:52:17 - 00:52:00:17
John Simmerman
I've got more for you. I mean, I want more. I want to know about the snow in Orlando. What's up with this?

00:52:00:20 - 00:52:10:17
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Oh, yeah, this is Orlando and it's snowed. I mean, it's it's nice. Is it necessary.

00:52:10:21 - 00:52:13:13
John Simmerman
Or is this a snowstorm?

00:52:13:16 - 00:52:17:04
Dr. Natalia Barbour
The snow is real. It just didn't fall on the ground. It was boarded.

00:52:17:06 - 00:52:20:05
John Simmerman
It was dry.

00:52:20:07 - 00:52:20:19
John Simmerman
The kids.

00:52:20:19 - 00:52:22:01
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Loved it. The kids.

00:52:22:04 - 00:52:27:25
John Simmerman
So tell it. Tell the story and describe this for the listening audience. What we're looking at here.

00:52:27:28 - 00:52:54:20
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So what you're looking at is a it's like a tubing or slide, like a longer slide covered with snow or it's mostly ice ice at this point. And The kids got tubes and they were able to experience sliding in their shorts and short sleeved shirts down this hill. And it was wonderful. It was one of those community events that we attended.

00:52:54:20 - 00:52:55:16
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And yeah, it.

00:52:55:16 - 00:52:57:17
John Simmerman
Was it was.

00:52:57:17 - 00:52:59:17
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Something else, definitely.

00:52:59:19 - 00:53:27:10
John Simmerman
Yeah. But what's really, really kind of cool about, you know, those types of experiences is, again, it just it brings forward that that sense of joy and fun. And I think that's incredibly important for us to, to hold on to when we think about the opportunity is that we have of of normalizing what it means to get around in our community and to be able to get out on bikes.

00:53:27:10 - 00:53:51:27
John Simmerman
And you mentioned, you know, just how incredibly important this is that we're able to shift some of those shorter vehicle trips away from the automobile and be able to make more of them by walking and biking and using transit is so I mean, we're looking at a photo here of your kids bikes or one of is that your cargo bike in the background?

00:53:51:27 - 00:53:52:26
John Simmerman
Yes. Yes.

00:53:52:28 - 00:54:29:20
Dr. Natalia Barbour
The bike in the reason that my older kids is rarely in a picture because of the bikeable, walkable infrastructure, she gets all the freedom so she can get to school by herself, come back by herself. So I don't have to be very involved in there. Drop offs and pickups, which also decreases emissions because when I look at the car line that is just idling in front of the schools where the air should be the cleanest, you know, So that's the that's the benefit to those psychopaths.

00:54:29:22 - 00:54:51:05
Dr. Natalia Barbour
And here we were going out just out and about and there were cows. So we stopped, looked at the cows. And it's incredible how much kids can learn through these daily operations that seem mundane. But there's always a learning opportunity, something new to see, something new to experience, which wouldn't be available to us otherwise.

00:54:51:08 - 00:55:16:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. So talk a little bit about that. As a mom, as a parent, how impactful and how important is it to, you know, to be able to see your kids, be able to develop that sense of autonomy and freedom and and be able to become a young adult, a young, functioning adult in community by being able to get around to two places.

00:55:16:17 - 00:55:43:15
Dr. Natalia Barbour
If you think about it, it's hardly ever only about transportation. But for example, when my older daughter, who's 13, so she's she's a real teenager now, I can rely on herself to get to places and she can go see her friends. She can coordinate her own life. It teaches her time management because she knows. So I have to leave at this time to make it to school on time.

00:55:43:15 - 00:56:22:28
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Otherwise I'll be tardy. So again, through this just it's not the parents. I'm not saying, okay, kids, get in the car. We're going to the car line. It's on her. So she is ending up developing those skills without really much of us teaching her because it's a necessity that she makes it to school in time. So it's been pretty rewarding to see them getting that concept of time, how much it takes, and then being in charge as opposed to the parents organizing everything, which I know that's the case these days, that the parents tend to organize things and we do we do after school activities, whatnot.

00:56:22:28 - 00:56:29:17
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Of course, I drive them to places as well, but when I don't have to, it's fully on them.

00:56:29:20 - 00:56:50:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I think that's that's really, really interesting too. And I really wanted to ask you that question because it's in North America oftentimes it's just sort of assumed that as a parent and especially as a mom that you're going to be that's your sole role is like, oh, I'm going to be carting them around and doing all of this stuff.

00:56:50:27 - 00:57:11:19
John Simmerman
So being able to have a situation where they're able to develop that sense of autonomy and the efficacy, the skills, the and feel confident that they can do that for your older daughter is is some of her friends getting around like this, too, or are they getting around under their own power?

00:57:11:21 - 00:57:39:03
Dr. Natalia Barbour
The entire neighborhood hardly ever ev anyone, especially for a middle school. She's in middle school for elementary school. The parents are more hands on, but for the middle school there is that psychopath that leads to the middle school. I think at some point it gets congested as congested as it can be in North American standards. And you can see some very creative micro-mobility modes like a monorail on a wheel.

00:57:39:03 - 00:58:13:01
Dr. Natalia Barbour
I don't know what's the proper name for it. A lot of e-scooters are skateboards. My older daughter used to go to school on skateboard last year and the kids tend to test different mobility modes and then see what fits their needs and their lifestyles and their identity. So that's been very cool to watch as a neighborhood effort. And I also think that the parents, when they know that their kids are cycling and riding a scooter, they tend to drive a little bit slower because it's always not someone else's kid.

00:58:13:04 - 00:58:26:16
Dr. Natalia Barbour
If it's my kid, I'm going to look out for other kids and I can feel that happening around as well. So it's a more like developing an ecosystem as a whole.

00:58:26:19 - 00:58:53:03
John Simmerman
And one of the things that that I think about too, is when it comes to equity and mobility is, you know, as we get older and you and along this particular photo here and it reminds me of of some of my graduate studies in gerontology of of really looking at you know, how empowering it is as we get older to still be able to get around to meaningful places.

00:58:53:09 - 00:59:16:26
John Simmerman
You're in Florida so you're in that the heat of this pardon the pun, in the sense that you've got, you know, a graying and aging population all around you as well. Talk a little bit about that and this will be our final word is is is how important it is to have a network of systems that is truly all ages and abilities like.

00:59:16:29 - 00:59:41:04
Dr. Natalia Barbour
This picture makes me particularly sad because it's taken out of the context. So if you saw the full picture, it would be a six lane arterial and it's an older gentleman cycling to a grocery store. And I think there is a better way to do it, giving them more space, more access right of way so they're not endangered.

00:59:41:11 - 01:00:06:04
Dr. Natalia Barbour
While I do feel like our community where we live has been designed to accommodate children cycling, adults walking, when you step outside, which is the case for a lot of cities and communities, it's been often overlooked and given the space that we have, especially if new communities are being built, why not? What's the reason? It's it's mind boggling.

01:00:06:07 - 01:00:55:07
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So for this gentleman, I do think that elderly community deserves better, deserves more access, safer infrastructure, safer laws that would make their travel safer because at some point, you know, we outlive our ability to drive safely. And I know there is I don't want to end on a negative because I know there are a lot of wonderful people who specialize in that transport trying to even bring autonomous and automated vehicles to the elderly houses to bring them to the grocery store on, you know, or the work is being done, but not at this scale as it needs to yet because there's still a lot of isolation and lack of access when it comes to elderly.

01:00:55:09 - 01:01:23:20
John Simmerman
You know, and for the viewing or the listening audience here, the picture on frame here is an older gentleman on an adult sized tricycle on a very, very narrow, probably just sidewalk. So it isn't that generous, multi-use path. And of course, it's right next to a six lane strode, which is not super comfortable. And, you know, we like you said, we we they deserve better.

01:01:23:20 - 01:01:51:06
John Simmerman
And we have that obligation as a society to, you know, create neighborhoods that, you know, have safe and inviting all ages and abilities, facilities so that people can meet their daily needs by walking, biking, using transit and when they need to also being able to use a motor vehicle. So I think that's one of the the main things that we talk about when we talk about freedom and joy is also freedom of choice.

01:01:51:06 - 01:01:56:10
John Simmerman
You know, being able to have choice in terms of your mobility moment.

01:01:56:12 - 01:02:24:19
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Absolutely. It's I and I wrote it a couple of days on Twitter, X on X, I wrote it on X couple of days ago that when you communities are being built, there's so much emphasis put on making them accessible with different routes and high speed boats as opposed to bringing the things that they need to access to their communities.

01:02:24:22 - 01:02:43:23
Dr. Natalia Barbour
So I do hope that that's the direction that the new developments are going to be built with focus on wellbeing, health, walkability, and then again, driving as an option, not an obligation. You should not need a car to go pick up bread. This is what I believe in. This is an opinion, not science.

01:02:43:25 - 01:02:48:26
John Simmerman
No, I think that that that's hard science right there.

01:02:48:28 - 01:02:52:03
Dr. Natalia Barbour
I can answer that. Yes, I think so.

01:02:52:06 - 01:02:53:15
John Simmerman
That's right.

01:02:53:18 - 01:03:02:27
John Simmerman
Dr. Natalia Barber, the University of Central Florida, thank you so very much for joining me here on the Acting Towns podcast. Once again.

01:03:02:29 - 01:03:05:28
Dr. Natalia Barbour
Thank you. It was a pleasure. Keep on cycling.

01:03:06:03 - 01:03:21:18
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Dr. Natalia Barber, and if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the Journal. Just click on this subscription button down below and ring that notifications bell.

01:03:21:24 - 01:03:41:23
John Simmerman
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01:03:41:27 - 01:04:05:12
John Simmerman
So until next time this is John signing off, wishing you much activity, health and happiness cheers and again sending a huge thank you to all my active town's ambassadors supporting the channel on patron buy me a coffee YouTube super Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the active town store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated.

01:04:05:15 - 01:04:06:22
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much.