Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:05 - 00:00:28:07
Anna Zivarts
This is a block party on my block in Seattle. And, you know, thinking about, okay, we have a lot of space in our communities dedicated to cars. how can we use that space to differently. And for me, as someone who can't drive, it was interesting because during the pandemic, as more of my neighbors were around, as everyone stopped driving as much, we had a really wonderful time connecting, through block parties to our neighbors in a way that there wasn't that sort of connection before.

00:00:28:09 - 00:00:45:09
Anna Zivarts
And I think, you know, it was especially transformational for me because I'm not able to easily get across town to visit someone we don't really have the the reliable transit here in Seattle the way, you know, it can be, you know, a ten minute drive and it'll take an hour on the, on the bus. Right. That's just the reality.

00:00:45:11 - 00:01:03:21
Anna Zivarts
And so having those social connections close by is so important. it would also be great to have, you know, more, more 15 minute city type opportunities, like a pharmacy and, you know, a rec center or, you know, those types of things as well. But we can start by building those communities with our neighbors.

00:01:03:28 - 00:01:28:06
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Anna Zivarts. Author of the new book When Driving Is Not an Option, steering away from Car dependency. Published by Island Press. this is a fascinating book and a fabulous conversation, so let's get right to it with Anna.

00:01:28:08 - 00:01:32:04
John Simmerman
Anna thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:01:32:06 - 00:01:34:25
Anna Zivarts
It's a joy to be here. Thanks for having me.

00:01:34:27 - 00:01:44:03
John Simmerman
You bet. on a, we are going to be talking about your brand new book. But before we do that, I wanted to just take this opportunity to introduce yourself.

00:01:44:05 - 00:02:05:24
Anna Zivarts
Sure. Hi, everyone. so my name is Ana. I am based in Seattle, Washington. I actually grew up here in Washington State, and I was born with a neurological condition called nystagmus. Makes my eyes wiggle all the time. So even if you're really perceptive, you might be able to pick that up in the video. And what that means is that my visual acuity isn't great.

00:02:05:27 - 00:02:25:10
Anna Zivarts
I see, 20, 80 or so on the vision chart. best case scenario. and so I have a really hard time seeing details in the distance or fast moving objects, which means that it is not safe for me to drive a vehicle. Drive a car. and so I am a non driver, and that's been something that I've known my whole life.

00:02:25:10 - 00:02:38:20
Anna Zivarts
I tried to fight it a bit as a teenager, and I read about it in the book, having a friend try to teach me how to drive. And I drove her mom's truck up a tree. and, that was the end of me feeling that maybe driving was going to be an option for me.

00:02:38:21 - 00:02:50:15
John Simmerman
So, I was cracking up when I read that part of the book, and I was like, oh, yeah, that's a teenager. It's like, yeah, I got this. And so until you don't.

00:02:50:17 - 00:03:09:00
Anna Zivarts
You really I mean, I'm just I'm very, very grateful that that that was all that happened in that situation. The tree was fine. The car was not. But you know, we were okay and nobody got killed. And I actually did a book event with that friend last weekend. And it's cool that she's still around and she's now actually working in similar public health and transportation work.

00:03:09:00 - 00:03:09:21
Anna Zivarts
So who would.

00:03:09:23 - 00:03:41:24
John Simmerman
Wow, that's that's fascinating. That's fascinating. Well, it's an interesting experience to have. And we'll pull up the book cover here. of the book when driving is not an option. Steering away from car dependency. it is interesting that young that experience that you had as a, as a teenager of, you know, that sort of mishap that took place and then, you know, lo and behold, you, you know, end up really working in this area, get passionate about writing about this experience.

00:03:41:27 - 00:03:58:08
John Simmerman
You wouldn't have known back then that this would be what you are passionate about. Talk a little bit about the origin stories of when you really could have shifted gears, if you pardon the pun. Bad fun. to do work in this arena.

00:03:58:10 - 00:04:13:15
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. So growing up, you know, I grew up in Washington state in a pretty rural area, and I didn't know any adults who didn't drive. And so I really I just had no conception for how I was going to live, and what my life was going to be like as someone who was going to have to get rides everywhere.

00:04:13:21 - 00:04:32:11
Anna Zivarts
And so I left Washington State, and I moved to the place where I'd heard that the subway around 24 hours a day. And that was New York. And and that was really why I moved there. I didn't, you know, know people, but I knew it was a place where I could get around and have that same sort of freedom of movement that I'd seen my peers have when they got their driver's licenses.

00:04:32:11 - 00:05:03:15
Anna Zivarts
And so I lived in New York for close to 15 years, and that was a wonderful experience. And in many ways, it also allowed me to really not be, not disclose to people that I was disabled, which probably, you know, wasn't always great because there's other other things I can't see as well. But, but it was great to, to have that same sort of mobility freedom and, and not worry when I saw a job posting, oh, I'm not compelled to do this job because it's going to, you know, require a driver's license or require me to be able to get around with a car that just I didn't even have to think about

00:05:03:15 - 00:05:25:09
Anna Zivarts
that in New York City. And then, yeah, then my son was born and he had this. He has the same eye condition I do. And that was a real sort of reckoning moment for me, because I understood that I couldn't keep hiding my disability, and I needed to start sort of owning that piece of myself and not feeling so ashamed about it because I didn't want him to feel that shame.

00:05:25:12 - 00:05:47:27
Anna Zivarts
And that's when I reconnected, with the disability community. Really, actually, through Twitter and and following Alice Wong, who just tremendous, tremendous advocate there, started to see that there was a place for me in that space. And, when the job opportunity opened up and disability rights Washington back in Washington state, I moved, to be to take that job and also to, to be closer to family.

00:05:48:00 - 00:06:18:12
Anna Zivarts
And through that work started to realize that there were so many other people who couldn't drive. And I hadn't known those people growing up. and I wish I had, but I didn't, and I really thought I was alone. And I started meeting all these other non drivers and recognizing that there was a lot of us out there and that, there was a lack of awareness both about how many non drivers there were and then what our mobility needs were and how, you know, in meeting those needs we could create communities that were more accessible for everyone.

00:06:18:15 - 00:06:19:07
Anna Zivarts
Yeah.

00:06:19:09 - 00:06:34:06
John Simmerman
So you mentioned there, about where you grew up and what that was like and the fact that, you know, pretty much everybody had to drive and did drive. And this is partly the reason why this is what it looked like.

00:06:34:08 - 00:06:52:09
Anna Zivarts
Yep. And, you know, this is a lot of our country, right? This is a lot of the US is is roads like this. And so you know, I think people when they think about non drivers, they think about people who live in urban areas, who live in apartment buildings, who are live close to transit, who have great sidewalks and, great connectivity.

00:06:52:11 - 00:07:11:24
Anna Zivarts
And the reality is that non drivers live everywhere, even in, especially in our rural areas, because our cities have become so expensive and housing is so expensive. So, you know, there's a lot of people who this is what they look at when they need to go somewhere. And it's it's not easy, especially if it's dark and it's raining and, you know, there's no bus.

00:07:11:26 - 00:07:47:10
John Simmerman
Yeah. You. Yeah. And and it's not to say that this environment that we're looking at here on screen and for those of, of you who are in the listening only audience, we're looking at, you know, sort of a narrow ish rural road with no shoulder per se, no paved shoulder, you know, cutting through the, you know, the pine trees, you know, sort of a you know, what you'd expect to see, in, in the Pacific Northwest and, and yeah, there's, there's literally no provision for anybody, who needs to walk or bike.

00:07:47:12 - 00:08:15:07
John Simmerman
or use a wheelchair, you know, outside of the actual motor vehicle traveling you mentioned. Yeah. You're not alone. And this image, I think, really sort of exemplifies that. There's it's a vast, there's a variety of different people, involved with that. So walk us through that. And then as you do that, I might add, one that I may not see in this, this image, but go ahead.

00:08:15:08 - 00:08:16:26
John Simmerman
Who are the non drivers that are out there.

00:08:17:03 - 00:08:40:27
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. Who are the non drivers. So and I talk about this in my book sort of one of the initial chapters really goes through all the different kinds of reasons. People can't drive or can't afford to drive or choose not to drive. you know, for, for the book, I really focus on what I call the involuntary non drivers, people who don't have a choice about it, either because of a physical disability, mental health condition, chronic health condition.

00:08:41:00 - 00:09:01:22
Anna Zivarts
because they can't afford to, perhaps because of immigration status. so there's there's lots of reasons people people can't drive age. Right? People too young to drive people who are aging out of driving. This image here shows a group of disabled non drivers. And the book really does center around disability because that's an experience I think a lot of people don't understand.

00:09:01:22 - 00:09:20:11
Anna Zivarts
Or there's so much shame about talking about that, that it's that it needs it needs more light. And so that's, the group of folks that I work with here, this is a group called Empower Movement Washington, which is a group of black and brown disabled non drivers from throughout the state of Washington who came together for a walk roll audit.

00:09:20:11 - 00:09:46:18
Anna Zivarts
And, and this picture is Mike McGinn, the director of America Walks and and so you know that those experiences I think are are really important for people to understand because, you know, my experience as someone who's white, who presents a lot of the time as non-disabled, unless you know me pretty well or know about, people with low vision or the St Agnes, I'm someone who can bike for transportation.

00:09:46:21 - 00:10:14:11
Anna Zivarts
You know, those things are different and provide different access, levels, than perhaps someone who's in a wheelchair or who doesn't have, the ability to bike, someone of a different race. you know, those those are all things that are different. And so I talk about, you know, the different kinds of disabilities that can prevent driving and, and also that the intersection between disability and poverty and disability and race that can make getting around unsafe.

00:10:14:13 - 00:10:16:01
Anna Zivarts
or impossible.

00:10:16:04 - 00:10:45:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. I had to smile when I saw Mike that in in the shot here. That's great. By Mike McGann, of course, is a good friend of mine. He's the former mayor of, of Seattle and, the current executive director of America Walks and a past guest here on the Active Towns podcast. And so it's always good to see Mike and, Mike is going to or American Walks is going to come up later in our conversation because there's a really exciting, program, that you highlight in the book.

00:10:45:20 - 00:10:54:15
John Simmerman
And I've highlighted here on the podcast in the past. But, let's, let's continue with this journey.

00:10:54:18 - 00:11:21:07
Anna Zivarts
Sounds good. So this next image is an image of of, Tanisha, who is someone I work with and who I also interviewed for the book. and she's a wheelchair user. She uses a power wheelchair, and she is rolling down the side of the street in Seattle where she lives, because the sidewalk between her house and the nearest bus stop is so cracked and uprooted and covered in loose gravel that it's completely inaccessible and unsafe for her to use in her wheelchair.

00:11:21:07 - 00:11:48:07
Anna Zivarts
And so, you know, after I sort of talk about in the book, the different types of reasons people can't drive or can't afford to drive or don't drive, I really get into what are some of the barriers that we experience as non drivers and a big one? A probably the biggest one and perhaps it doesn't receive enough attention, is that lack of pedestrian connectivity, whether that's because of, you know, lack of access or a lack of infrastructure or an environment is just being completely miserable to be a pedestrian.

00:11:48:07 - 00:12:08:04
Anna Zivarts
And because you're next to a highway, that noise, the air pollution, you know, some of the harassment you can get as a pedestrian. So this is an image of Tunisia, and, you know, it's not safe for her to be where she is on the side of the road here. she, you know, can get doored or she can get hit.

00:12:08:04 - 00:12:30:23
Anna Zivarts
She gets a lot of harassment, but it's it's the only option she has. And it, that that pedestrian connectivity is so overlooked. And I think I have a couple more images, too, that, you know, crossings, right, is another big one. whether that's crossing, you know, the arterial to get to the bus stop, we build all this, you know, high speed bus, rapid transit along arterials, and then we expect people to be able to cross.

00:12:30:23 - 00:12:51:09
Anna Zivarts
And how does that work? this is a freeway off ramp. And there's, you know, so many places in our cities, we build highways, and then we build these on ramps and off ramps, and pedestrians still have to cross at these places. And it's not a safer, pleasant environment when cars are thinking about, you know, freeway speeds and not encountering pedestrians.

00:12:51:09 - 00:13:09:21
Anna Zivarts
And this one here is another example here in Seattle, where we're building a light rail station in the middle of a freeway interchange. And so pedestrians are going to have to navigate these UN signals. There's no stoplight, off ramps and on ramps to get to the light rail. Just a really miserable and unsafe, design choice.

00:13:09:24 - 00:13:34:11
John Simmerman
Yeah. This also reminds me to, this happens to be, an off ramp, but, it it also reminds me of slip lanes. We put in slip lanes all over the place, too, you know, unnecessarily to to be able to try to prioritize the quick movement of motor vehicles. But it creates the same type of dangerous, scenario and situation for people trying to cross said slip lane.

00:13:34:11 - 00:13:40:24
John Simmerman
To be able to hopefully get to some form of refuge, to then be able to cross the next lane.

00:13:40:26 - 00:13:56:28
Anna Zivarts
So yeah, I would love. I've been fantasizing about making a ban slip lanes t shirt and there's there's one right on my block. Actually, that's so unnecessary. coming from, you know, one arterial to another and you're like, this is, you know, it just in the middle of a city y y it's funny.

00:13:56:28 - 00:14:08:22
John Simmerman
It's it's it's funny you should mention that. Or go back to this. You know, about the you know, about this, you know, with this in the context of a slip lane. I actually have a store. I can make a t shirt like that.

00:14:08:24 - 00:14:10:18
Anna Zivarts
I would love it.

00:14:10:21 - 00:14:19:03
John Simmerman
Right now, my store has a whole bunch of these. You know, I've got coffee cups. The streets are for people. And t shirts, too. So, sorry for the little commercial there.

00:14:19:03 - 00:14:21:27
Anna Zivarts
So some slip away, and so I'll do that.

00:14:21:29 - 00:14:34:24
John Simmerman
I'll do that. All right. Here we are. Now, this looks familiar to me because I did live in Chicago for a while in Ann Arbor, Michigan, as well as Boulder, Colorado. So yeah, this looks like a yes.

00:14:34:24 - 00:14:53:06
Anna Zivarts
So, you know, there's also all the sort of other things that block sidewalks that maybe aren't permanent, but are just as as, you know, large as barriers. You know, we have plants you can have A-frame signs, you can have ice, you can have snow. This is an image. And, this is an image of Seattle. Believe it or not, this is my neighborhood.

00:14:53:09 - 00:15:12:08
Anna Zivarts
and there's someone who cleared their driveway very nicely and left the sidewalk totally, a mess of ice and snow and, you know, for for able bodied, non-disabled pedestrians that can, you know, be it can be slippery. It can be dangerous. If you are a wheelchair user, it means you're stuck in your home because you don't have traction on something like this.

00:15:12:08 - 00:15:40:04
Anna Zivarts
And if you're blind, again, it can be, and use a white cane. Right? This is not possible to navigate something like this. And so, we often leave sidewalk clearing to the individual property owner, and then it doesn't happen. And people get stuck at home for unsafe periods of time. And there's a I talk in the book with, folks from Access Living who have been working on a campaign there to get municipal sidewalks in Chicago, which is really exciting.

00:15:40:04 - 00:15:50:19
Anna Zivarts
They just finally got a pilot started, that's going to hopefully roll out next year. So something to aspire to. in other places, especially places that get a lot of snow.

00:15:50:21 - 00:16:27:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. And you bring it you bring up a really good point about, just how dangerous this type of situation can be. And, and it's always been curious to me that in the United States, this is the way that we treat sidewalks, because technically, sidewalks are considered part of the right of way. they are part of the actual transportation network and system as the only situation that I can think of where oh, and by the way, we're going to push the responsibility of making sure that this is a clear and safe right of way over to the responsibility of the property owner adjacent to it.

00:16:27:27 - 00:17:02:15
John Simmerman
You certainly don't have that level of responsible in the rest of the right of way. So it's not the responsibility of the owner who did their driveway to also go out and, you know, clear the snow from the street in front of their house. And so it's just really mind boggling to me that we do this. And as somebody who studied gerontology, both at the undergraduate and graduate level, it also is a very, very serious potential trip hazard and slip hazard for us as we continue to get up in age.

00:17:02:17 - 00:17:30:25
John Simmerman
And one of the most dramatic things that, you know, can kind of turn things for, for older adults is to have a slip and fall and a broken hip and, and, and it kind of, you know, gets to the old cliche is we're all, you know, eventually, on a trajectory of disability at some point in time in our life as well as, and we can also say the same thing of, of people, able bodied drivers who are able to drive now, eventually they age out.

00:17:30:25 - 00:17:48:10
John Simmerman
And so that's another group of non drivers. that also exist is it's something that you start off not being able to drive when you're too young to drive, and then eventually you age out. If you're able to survive that long and not slip on this ice right here.

00:17:48:12 - 00:18:07:18
Anna Zivarts
The no. And I think that's such an important reminder that. Right. And I didn't hit on this number when I was talking about non drivers. But you know all together if you take everyone who can't drive because of a disability, everyone who can't afford to drive, everyone aging out of driving, everyone too young to drive. We're 30% of the population right across the US.

00:18:07:18 - 00:18:26:19
Anna Zivarts
And that's a huge number. And it's and and yet it's not a number that's that's accepted or recognized or, you know, like if you think of the system designing a system that doesn't work for 30% of the population, why why do we keep on digging ourselves deeper into car dependency when that is, it's not working for so many people.

00:18:26:21 - 00:18:48:28
Anna Zivarts
And, yeah. And the the difference between the way we treat sidewalks, which are, yes, part of the public right of way, just like the streets. And yet it's up to the property owner to maintain, to, you know, repair cracks and bumps and snow and the roads, which, you know, somehow warrant public resources for, for potholes. Right. That it it really, you know, is grating.

00:18:49:00 - 00:18:49:10
Anna Zivarts
Yeah.

00:18:49:17 - 00:19:18:22
John Simmerman
It's very, very confusing and frustrating for sure. talking about the, the percentages of non drivers that are out there, I did have, Kathy Tuttle on the podcast a couple of times. And the first time she was on, we actually talked about non drivers extensively in a study that she did in Portland, where she was able to account for nearly 40% of the the population there in Portland is what would be considered non drivers.

00:19:18:25 - 00:19:31:05
John Simmerman
And she mentioned at the time and you mentioned this in the book, that that's an underestimate too, because there's lots of people we just have a hard time accounting for. Talk a little bit about that.

00:19:31:07 - 00:19:49:12
Anna Zivarts
We do. Right. I mean there's some folks who are clearly right, like myself, I can't drive and that's that's not going to change. but for other folks, it's more transitory, right? You know, perhaps it's okay that your car, you have a car. but right now it needs a repair, and you can't get that repair made until you get your next paycheck.

00:19:49:15 - 00:20:06:10
Anna Zivarts
Or, you know, perhaps your household has one car, but your partner uses it most of the time, and you only get it, you know, when it's not being used by that other person or, you know, perhaps you have a disability where you have good days and bad days, and on good days you can drive some places, and on bad days you can't.

00:20:06:10 - 00:20:26:26
Anna Zivarts
Or I talk about Erica in the book, who uses a wheelchair but can't afford a wheelchair accessible vehicle so she can use her vehicle to drive to drive through situations, but she can't get out of her vehicle. And so, you know, for most of the time she'd much rather take transit because, I mean, she can actually go in and do things, and not just be stuck in the car.

00:20:26:26 - 00:20:41:20
Anna Zivarts
So, you know, it's not a very strict binary. but it also, I think is a really useful frame to talk about, you know, people who every need can't be met by just grabbing their keys and going whenever they want to. Yeah. And, yeah, yeah.

00:20:41:22 - 00:20:43:22
John Simmerman
Yeah. Good stuff. All right.

00:20:43:24 - 00:21:09:12
Anna Zivarts
Moving on. So transit, transit access, transit reliability, transit going. You know, where we need it to go when we need it to go. That's another major need, right? That everyone who can't drive, relies on, especially for longer distances. Right. And because so much of our communities here in the US are large, and the distances we need to travel are large, transit can can really fill those gaps.

00:21:09:15 - 00:21:26:19
Anna Zivarts
And this is a this is an image of Abby Griffith. She's an organizer with, Transit Writers Union in Portland, Oregon now. But she worked with me, as an intern for a while on the story map work. I did it disability rights. Washington. And she grew up in a in a rural area in Washington state, like I did and didn't have any transit access.

00:21:26:21 - 00:21:59:28
Anna Zivarts
And she's blind. And so she had to, you know, get rides when she could from her mom. But her mom was busy single mom working hard, full time other kids. And so she mostly just felt really isolated at home. And, she talks to me about the joy she felt when she was finally able to get her own apartment in Vancouver, Washington, which is near Portland, and what that felt like to be able to live near a bus stop and walk to that bus stop and go when she wanted to go somewhere where she wanted to go and that that liberation, I think similar to how I felt when I moved to New York.

00:21:59:28 - 00:22:14:24
Anna Zivarts
Right. That is just it really does make a huge difference. And so, you know, funding transit and funding fixed route transit, is really great. it's really critical and there's no substitute. and yeah, there's no substitute.

00:22:14:26 - 00:22:23:22
John Simmerman
So I'm going to go back to, an example of a bus stop that would not be very nice for her. And that's this one.

00:22:23:24 - 00:22:45:18
Anna Zivarts
yeah. Yeah. So I mean, in this fits right back into that, that pedestrian access piece. Right. Like we need to think about transit and and sidewalks going together. This is something that Krystal Montero's, another advocate I interview in the book, talks about if the sidewalk isn't accessible and doesn't get you to the transit stop or the transit stop doesn't isn't accessible, then that transit isn't accessible.

00:22:45:20 - 00:23:03:17
Anna Zivarts
and this is an example of a transit stop. This is in the tri cities area in Washington state, where there's a curb and loose gravel and a transit stop on the far side of that loose gravel. And it was a high speed road, no shoulder, right there. Like, there's no there's no shoulder to wait on. If you couldn't wait in the loose gravel.

00:23:03:24 - 00:23:24:26
Anna Zivarts
And if you're in a wheelchair, this is not a place you can get to. and so on. If you're in a wheelchair and you need to use this stop, it probably means you are relying on paratransit instead, which means, you know, scheduling 24 hours in advance, waiting an hour, two hours for the pickup, you know, not being able to leave when you're ready, having to wait for that return trip.

00:23:24:28 - 00:23:54:23
Anna Zivarts
You know, it's it's really I mean, people complain about the inconvenience of fixed route transit, but paratransit is even more difficult. to, to to to make work, in a way that you can live a complete life. because it just takes so long and the scheduling is so intense. So, part of part of addressing that right is having accessible stops where people can, you know, wait, wait safely, wait comfortably, have shelter from the rain, shelter from the sun.

00:23:54:26 - 00:24:18:26
Anna Zivarts
smooth place to wait if you're in a wheelchair and, trash cans I've always dreamed about, you know, better things. I think there's some reports about how to make, you know, transit stops more kid friendly when you're waiting with a board. kid, you know something? to keep them busy would be really great. But there's, you know, there's so much more we could do to make our transit stops and transit centers more pleasant places.

00:24:18:26 - 00:24:21:13
Anna Zivarts
Bathrooms. You know, all that.

00:24:21:15 - 00:25:00:14
John Simmerman
It's interesting, too, on this image that we're looking at here. And again, for the listening audience, we're looking at a very, very wide, strode. It's at least I think it's five lanes. It's it's two very, very wide travel lanes, plus the center turn lane. And in the background you can see a church that is there. And so you can reasonably see that this could be a, a meaningful destination for, you know, perhaps a family or an elderly person who gets dropped off at this stop and needs to navigate across this entire, you know, monstrosity of a high speed roadway.

00:25:00:17 - 00:25:22:29
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about that, because I think that's that's one of the things, the themes that I was, I was really encouraged to see in your book is, you know, addressing the fact that we do have these massive high speed, you know, streets and roads that just are not conducive to, you know, people trying to get around if they're not in a car.

00:25:23:02 - 00:25:46:18
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. I mean, I think this is something that you don't appreciate until you're trying to do it. And, you really don't appreciate until you're trying to do it, say, in a wheelchair or with a child or, you know, pushing a grocery cart. Like, it really, isn't real when you're in a vehicle and feel that sort of protection of a vehicle the way it is when you're not in a vehicle and, you know, to get to the week without driving challenge.

00:25:46:20 - 00:26:21:06
Anna Zivarts
I think this is why we created this challenge, because we wanted people to understand what it's like to to feel that way when you're trying to get across to a bus stop or to your grocery store or your church or your school, that that is something you're either going to have to, you know, do, and take that risk and feel that fear or that discomfort or you're not going to make that trip, or you're going to have to ask a favor to, to make that trip, which, you know, comes with its own load of, you know, well, okay, what at what cost?

00:26:21:06 - 00:26:44:24
Anna Zivarts
Right. So, this is our week with that driving website for the National Week Without Driving challenge. we started the week without driving back in 2021, in Washington state. And the idea was, okay, we've done all these interviews with non drivers and, done a lot of work to try to highlight these stories. Now, how can we get elected leaders and policymakers and folks who work at agencies that work in transportation?

00:26:44:26 - 00:27:08:00
Anna Zivarts
How can we get them to really understand why, why this matters and why we need changes, and so that they have a bit more fire lit under them. And that's where the idea came out of, basically it's you try to get around, for a week without driving yourself. It's for all trips, not just commute trips. And that's really important because it's often those other trips that are harder, to make.

00:27:08:03 - 00:27:30:00
Anna Zivarts
And, it isn't about, you know, riding a bike necessarily or walking. Right. You're allowed to ride transit, you're allowed to ask for rides, because for so much of our country, it's just not possible unless you're driven to get somewhere. Right? The infrastructure is so lacking, and the distances are so great that really your only option is going to be asking for a favor or paying.

00:27:30:00 - 00:27:56:11
Anna Zivarts
Perhaps if you're in an area with ride hail, paying for ride hail. But that's increasingly expensive. And so we hear a lot of stories of folks who, you know, end up not going places that they would like to be able to go, and understanding sort of that feeling of isolation and also relying on favors and understanding a little bit more that it's not so easy, especially for trips that might be seen as not completely essential to ask for favors.

00:27:56:11 - 00:28:13:22
Anna Zivarts
Even if you have friends and families that can drive you places. So and then, you know, a brilliant way for folks to understand, oh, that's what it feels like when there's no sidewalk or when I'm waiting at a bus stop in that rain and then have to walk into a work meeting and I'm all soaking, soaking wet and and cold.

00:28:13:22 - 00:28:30:20
Anna Zivarts
And, you know, the understanding these are little things that we can start to do to make our communities more accessible for non drivers. And also a big thing is that we need to start investing in as well, like housing, near transit and more transit and actual pedestrian infrastructure.

00:28:30:22 - 00:28:57:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And in the in the book there you have a story or two of, of people reflecting on exactly how hard it really is and was for them to experience that. I'm also pulling up, the America walk's, website here. We had referenced, Mike McGinn, the executive director of Miracle Walks, earlier. again, they partnered up with you last year, I think.

00:28:57:18 - 00:29:14:29
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. So, last year. So we did we put that driving two years in Washington state, and then we really saw we got a lot of, contacts from folks wanting to bring it to their states. And, I didn't have the capacity to do that from where I was at, but, knew Mike McGinn was interested and saw the value in this.

00:29:14:29 - 00:29:35:11
Anna Zivarts
And so we approached America Walks, and they have a terrific organizer there with Rosa's who does the national organizing for a week without driving. And so, yeah, that that started last year. I think we were able to get to 41 states, which is just incredible in the first year of a program. And we're aiming for all 50 states this year.

00:29:35:11 - 00:30:12:08
Anna Zivarts
It's September 30th through October 6th. You can see it right here is the website. Yep. And yeah, we encourage folks because it really is an an awesome way to understand the challenges non drivers experience in your communities and to also build a coalition with folks from different perspectives. Right? Folks from disability orgs organizations, folks from active transportation, biking walking groups, folks in public health, folks who work at transit agencies, you know, to bring people together to say, okay, it's not just one of these things that's going to make it better.

00:30:12:08 - 00:30:23:09
Anna Zivarts
We have to make sure these networks work in a and together in tandem. And, and that's how we're going to create communities that are, more accessible for everyone.

00:30:23:12 - 00:30:48:17
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And I mentioned to you before we hit the record button that, that I actually profiled a week without, driving. And I didn't even realize that that was going to happen. when I was interviewing, Darcy Kitching, from Boulder, Colorado. She's a TDM specialist, there, with the Boulder Chamber of Commerce and the, Boulder Transportation, group there.

00:30:48:19 - 00:31:28:25
John Simmerman
she brought it up and we we profiled it and boom, right there. The second link on the, in the show notes, is the week without driving. So that was super, super fun and surprising and and a delight because she was able to reflect a little bit about how challenging it was for her, even as a professional who's working in that field and, you know, and she's, you know, she's single mom, she's like, you know, doing things and the things come up and and so I think that that's one of the most powerful things about that type of this type of experience, this type of challenge is it really does help put people

00:31:28:25 - 00:31:39:21
John Simmerman
into, you know, into those shoes of being able to feel like this is what it's like to be able to, you know, try to get around without driving.

00:31:39:24 - 00:31:55:28
Anna Zivarts
Yeah, it's it's a really a great challenge. And I'm hoping that more communities can figure out and more, more advocates can figure out how it can be useful for them. Because I think it it does bring us together and, and point out, you know, where the gaps are in a really, wonderful way. Clear way.

00:31:56:01 - 00:32:15:19
John Simmerman
Yeah. I want to pull up, another image here, taking us back into the forest and back into the, the thing, talk a little bit about, this experience and why this is so important for for cities to take into consideration.

00:32:15:21 - 00:32:40:07
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. So this is an image of Ian Mackey, who organizes an event called Ian's Ride, which is an inclusive walk, roll bike run, that goes across three days in Washington state and ends up Powerchair user. And I think I interview him in my book and we talk a lot about micro mobility and mobility. And I think in there's so much potential right now in this space for more access.

00:32:40:07 - 00:33:03:24
Anna Zivarts
And yet a lot of that potential has been sort of directed towards people with a lot of resources and, you know, people who already have mobility options. I'm thinking a lot of you know, e-scooters and e-bikes, that, that really are, you know, designed in ways that work well for non-disabled folks who don't have to carry groceries or don't have a kid.

00:33:03:27 - 00:33:40:02
Anna Zivarts
but there's so much potential for this battery technology, to, to transform the lives of people with disabilities who do need to go places, with kids and with groceries and all of that. And so Jen and I talk a lot about what it would take to get power wheelchairs, you know, to, to be, you know, heartier, to be able to handle the more weather conditions and, to be able to have longer lasting batteries so people can go, you know, all day and not have to worry about running out of a charge and be limited, by that, I also interview some other folks like myself who can bike but can't drive.

00:33:40:05 - 00:33:59:04
Anna Zivarts
And really, the the potential that e-bikes have opened up in our lives to be able to carry kids and groceries and ways that that, you know, weren't options before. And so I think that this is something that gives me hope, but we need to make sure that we're continuing to invest in, in solutions that are that are really inclusive.

00:33:59:04 - 00:34:17:26
Anna Zivarts
And I, I'm seeing this happen more and more. I'm seeing more strikes. I just saw like an e-bike with a seat in the back for carrying passengers. you know, there's a lot of talk about golf carts. And, I do think, you know, we have to start figuring out where where are the physical places in, in our communities if these are going to be used?

00:34:17:29 - 00:34:31:08
Anna Zivarts
what are the paths, you know, where is that space? And making sure that we have that space, to, to connect and get around on, you know, non cars that is not in cars, speed types of mobility devices.

00:34:31:10 - 00:34:48:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And in this particular image we're really seeing two. Another side of what accessibility can mean is accessibility into nature. Being able to reconnect people into green spaces. And how powerful and important that is for for health and mental health.

00:34:48:11 - 00:35:09:20
Anna Zivarts
It really is. And, one someone I worked with for a long time and now is working on a project called Transit Tractor, I interview in the book and, Kim is, really focused right now on how can people who can't drive get into into open spaces, into green space, into parks, and using our existing transit networks, using existing, you know, bike paths, how can that work?

00:35:09:20 - 00:35:27:28
Anna Zivarts
And I think it's it's important to think about. I also want to shout out to Safe Routes to Schools partnership. they do a lot of work on, on, you know, access to parks right now and green space in our communities. And I think those are so important because we built it, you know, so much of our country and our national identity around access to outdoors.

00:35:27:28 - 00:35:45:22
Anna Zivarts
But that's always tied to driving. And, you know, owning vehicles that can get you there and, you know, get you into the mountains, get you in the tree, into the trails. And, and it doesn't have to be that way. We can have transit to green space. We can have trails to green space. we can have green space in our communities.

00:35:45:22 - 00:36:16:26
Anna Zivarts
And, yeah, this next image really, hits that that this is a block party on my block in Seattle. And, you know, thinking about, okay, we have a lot of space in our communities dedicated to cars. how can we use that space to differently. And for me, as someone who can't drive, it was interesting because during the pandemic, as more of my neighbors were around, as everyone stopped driving as much, we had a really wonderful time connecting, through block parties to our neighbors in a way that there wasn't that sort of connection before.

00:36:16:28 - 00:36:33:28
Anna Zivarts
And I think, you know, it was especially transformational for me because I'm not able to easily get across town to visit someone we don't really have the the reliable transit here in Seattle the way, you know, it can be, you know, a ten minute drive and it'll take an hour on the on the bus. Right. That's just the reality.

00:36:34:00 - 00:36:54:22
Anna Zivarts
And so having those social connections close by is so important. it would also be great to have, you know, more, more 15 minute city type opportunities like a pharmacy and, you know, a rec center or, you know, those types of things as well. But we can start by building those communities with our neighbors. And so I talk about that in this book.

00:36:54:22 - 00:37:10:00
Anna Zivarts
And that is an important thing, not just for our mental health, but also resilience in the face of climate change and natural disasters, that those those connections to your immediate physical neighbors become really important in times of crisis.

00:37:10:03 - 00:37:39:04
John Simmerman
Yeah. And you do talk about this in the book. And I was very encouraged to see that. You talk a little bit about land use and how powerful it is for somebody who is a non driver to be able to be in a community, in a neighborhood. You mentioned it earlier with, you know, the one person who, was using transit and, you know, felt like she, the her world was opened up because she was able to move to a place where she could use transit to be able to get to things.

00:37:39:09 - 00:38:10:21
John Simmerman
But then on the flip side of it is to is land use and being able to have more meaningful destinations in closer proximity and have more affordable housing options near meaningful destinations. And so I also, when I see this picture of, you know, of, of the the value and the richness of being able to connect to, the people nearest us along our block is also having hopefully more meaningful destinations just around the block or, you know, just at the end of the block.

00:38:10:24 - 00:38:32:16
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about that, because I thought that was a beautiful part of your book, too, of really pointing out that it's not just the streets that need to change and become more friendly to non drivers. We also need to be transforming our communities to, you know, also align with that more meaningful destinations and shorter proximity in Europe.

00:38:32:20 - 00:38:48:17
Anna Zivarts
I thought a lot about this. Right. And you know, how do we how does that happen and how do we get there. And what, you know, what would need to change in my neighborhood right now to make that happen? When, you know, right now there's most people I know get in a car and go to Costco for their shopping.

00:38:48:17 - 00:39:07:11
Anna Zivarts
And, you know, Costco's in an industrial area. It's not easily accessible from where I live at all. And so, you know, how could you could it could a grocery store exist here? or would it there's just not enough business because it's so easy for people to drive somewhere where land is cheaper. Right. And how do we change that?

00:39:07:11 - 00:39:36:17
Anna Zivarts
I think those are those are really big questions. I think the bigger question, though, is just the housing affordability. I'm, you know, incredibly lucky that I live in I can I can live in Seattle. Right. And that's not something that many people can afford, especially low income. And disabled folks. And so, yeah, I hear again and again stories from folks who are priced out of living where there is transit, where there are sidewalks and, and so in exchange and people who can't drive, right.

00:39:36:17 - 00:40:05:13
Anna Zivarts
And people who highly value those things because they're absolutely necessary for them. And yet it's not even a choice. They are back, you know, in the rural communities where they grew up living with their parents, because that's what's affordable. But there's no transit and they're back isolated again. And so there's so much we need to change there. to make it possible for we to have housing where there is transit and also to make sure that where we're building, you know, new housing we have that the we insist that there has to be sidewalks.

00:40:05:13 - 00:40:15:01
Anna Zivarts
We insist that there has to be transit, that we don't assume that everyone's going to have a car because they're not, and, or they can't afford to. Yeah.

00:40:15:03 - 00:40:39:13
John Simmerman
And, and part of what has to take place for us to be able to change some of these dynamics. And you do address this in the book, is we have to be realistic about the the fact that the status quo has a vested interest in kind of keeping things rolling along the way they are, and you present some strategies as to as to how we might be able to do that.

00:40:39:13 - 00:40:59:14
John Simmerman
And one of the ones I want to to pull up here is an image of a walk roll audit, because this is one of the ways that you can sort of like be an eye opener to some of the powers it be and as, as well as, you know, other stakeholders as to the challenge that's out there, just like with the one week without driving challenge is a great eye opener.

00:40:59:19 - 00:41:01:28
John Simmerman
So is this.

00:41:02:01 - 00:41:19:20
Anna Zivarts
Yes. Yeah. This was a walk roll out. And again in Seattle we have a lot of new construction going on here. And it's been a pet peeve of mine because coming from New York City when there's construction you put up scaffolding. The sidewalk stays open for the most part. Or if it doesn't then it's just bumped out a bit.

00:41:19:23 - 00:41:36:12
Anna Zivarts
It remains open in one way or the other, and Seattle, the status quo is shut down the sidewalk. No one's using that. Too bad if you have to cross an arterial extra two times and there's no, you know, light or way to do that, you are out of luck. And so this image here is a walk or what we were doing.

00:41:36:12 - 00:41:56:15
Anna Zivarts
And we were focused on sidewalk repair. We weren't even, you know, going to talk about sidewalks being closed. And we got to this intersection and there was a sidewalk, construction closed side, fully blocking where folks with wheelchairs would be able to roll onto the sidewalk and get out of this busy arterial. And this is so common. and.

00:41:56:21 - 00:42:13:22
Anna Zivarts
Yeah, so I think and then, and, you know, it was nice on this one, we had some folks from the city with us who, you know, were able to, I think, remind some of the contractors on this site that they really needed to make sure that there was an accessible path available. But, I haven't ever been on a walker a lot that I thought was a waste of time.

00:42:13:22 - 00:42:43:18
Anna Zivarts
I think every time we're out there, people learn things. And I think because, you know, so often people with disabilities are not, necessarily visible, there's so much shame. And then there's also just so much, you know, isolation or the challenges, logistical challenges of being in community and not having the support to do that, that when there is these opportunities to to learn from your neighbors and from your other community members, it's so valuable.

00:42:43:18 - 00:42:57:05
Anna Zivarts
And so I, I encourage everyone, especially advocates and folks who work in agencies and, our elected leaders or policymakers to to seek out the time to do this. You know.

00:42:57:08 - 00:43:07:21
John Simmerman
And here we're back at the week, without driving a couple of images, any final thoughts on the week without driving that we may not have, captured earlier?

00:43:07:24 - 00:43:36:23
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. I mean, I think one really important piece of the week without driving is it came out of the the work we did interviewing non drivers and involuntary non drivers from throughout the state of Washington. And we really wanted to ground it in that experience. The, the idea for it came originally from my experience working in the labor movement and doing, you know day in the life of, visits where service workers would be paired with elected leaders so that elected leader could experience their, their day for, a day.

00:43:36:23 - 00:43:58:21
Anna Zivarts
And I, did this with, then candidate, now Mayor Muriel Bowser from DC, who spent the day with a housekeeper. And I remember we met at the housekeepers home and she rode the bus, and then she had to pay again to transfer to the DC subway, the metro there. And then we had a really great, you know, they had a great conversation about what it meant for her to have to, you know, pay this transfer fee.

00:43:58:25 - 00:44:28:20
Anna Zivarts
And that's that's been removed. Now, thankfully, there's not that transfer penalty, but it just made me think that there's, you know, there was so much potential here for people who don't always experience things to see it from a different perspective. And so, we really do encourage with the week with our driving for folks to partner with disability organizations, partner with folks who, you know, organizations that work with immigrants, with low income workers who are riding transit and walking and rolling because that is their best or only choice.

00:44:28:23 - 00:44:49:28
Anna Zivarts
And, and so that those, those experiences are understood and so that that image there of Crystal Montero, as I mentioned earlier, that was her, pointing out her her transit stop to some elected leaders who were doing that driving and talking about, okay, there's no sidewalk from this bus stop to my house. And you know, when it's muddy, I get stuck and neighbors have to come push me out.

00:44:49:28 - 00:45:06:16
Anna Zivarts
And, you know, I think that that reality sunk in. And so that, you know, project is now, you know, getting worked on or hopefully getting some sidewalk built. but, you know, it takes people feeling that personal connection sometimes. And that, is something that the week without driving can, can achieve.

00:45:06:18 - 00:45:45:11
John Simmerman
You know, I want to go back to this image here just because it's such a powerful and disturbing image at the same time. so when I see this too, and you had mentioned that, that you use a bike to get around, it's something that you're able to take advantage of and be able to have some mobility. And one of the things that that I notice, from my travel in Europe is that there is a great deal of mobility that is, is, is really afforded to those who are in wheelchairs and other mobility devices.

00:45:45:13 - 00:46:22:15
John Simmerman
because the cycle networks are so well built and so protected and so smooth, whereas many of the sidewalks are quite old because many of the cities are quite old, and they might be pavers, stones and cobblestones and certainly not as easy to roll on. and so for somebody who's on a bike, for somebody who's in a mobility device, having access to truly high quality all ages and abilities, again, all ages, all abilities, cycle network facilities really is quite empowering for for people over there.

00:46:22:15 - 00:46:53:17
John Simmerman
I'm most familiar with with the Netherlands, I spend a lot of time there, talk a little bit about that from your perspective in the work that you have been doing, and how that could potentially be a solution for the image that we're looking at right now, which is overbuilt streets and roads, again, with more than enough, you know, right of way to be able to have protected infrastructure for, you know, for people on bikes as well as mobility devices as well as sidewalks.

00:46:53:17 - 00:47:19:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, we probably should have better sidewalks. We must have better sidewalks. But, you know, if we really want to get, you know, split the hairs, we could say we also should have continuous elevation sidewalks and bikeways, too. In other words, there shouldn't have to dip down to each roadway level. So, talk a little bit about that and address that because you feel it every day as somebody who gets around by bike for sure.

00:47:19:15 - 00:47:42:25
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. I mean, you know, I think the, the question of, you know, would do bike paths in the US provide access and better access for people who are using wheelchairs. I try really hard. I mean, I've had conversations with folks who use wheelchairs about this. And, you know, I think there's different opinions. And I want to be careful not to speak for a group that, you know, it's not my experience.

00:47:42:27 - 00:48:04:14
Anna Zivarts
I guess some things I've heard, though, is that, you know, bikers can be really rude, because those are not usually traveling as fast as as bikes and people bike. People feel that the space is, you know, being taken over. Right. And there's, there's, there's there's a cruelty in that. And so, I know I have heard stories of that, that in that experience.

00:48:04:14 - 00:48:09:24
Anna Zivarts
And I know there's also a lot of people as am right, in the bike community. So that that doesn't surprise me. Yeah.

00:48:09:24 - 00:48:28:04
John Simmerman
And I'm gonna go, I'm going to go, I'm going to go back to this image right here and basically say and call anybody out who's on a bike. If you're being impatient or rude to anybody getting around in a mobility device and they're in a bike lane or on a shared use path like this right here going through the forest, that's not cool.

00:48:28:06 - 00:48:33:10
Anna Zivarts
Don't you know, are you sad that a kid is is for real? And there's there's so much work.

00:48:33:11 - 00:48:59:19
John Simmerman
Seriously? Seriously, people, nothing that you are doing is all that important. Not your workout, not you getting to work, etc. is is to be rude or, you know, to somebody who is. I mean, whether it's a child learning how to ride or an elderly person or a person with a disability, I mean, we all need to be able to share this, this non driver mobility space together.

00:48:59:21 - 00:49:17:03
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing I'll say though around, you know, I think most people in wheelchairs who I've talked to would prefer to use the sidewalk if it was accessible. Right. Because being, you know, it's not particularly comfortable to be passed by someone going fast, you know, on a, on a, another device. Yeah. I think we've all we all felt that.

00:49:17:03 - 00:49:39:02
Anna Zivarts
Right. And so yeah. So we need to be making our sidewalks accessible. We also need connected bike lanes and making sure that those, you know, exist and they're wide enough. So that, say, you did have two people in nontraditional bikes and, you know, cargo bikes or trikes that needed to pass each other like, that could happen. And we have all these, you know, two way bike lanes that aren't even wide enough for that.

00:49:39:04 - 00:50:00:18
Anna Zivarts
So really thinking about how can we have wide enough space so there's less conflict? because right now, a lot of the way we're designing these, you know, these multi-use tasks or these bike lanes in cities is that they're too narrow, to be comfortable for anything. But, you know, a quote unquote traditional bike, to path. So, throw that out there as well.

00:50:00:20 - 00:50:25:27
John Simmerman
Yeah. No, I, I talk about that a lot actually, because, you know, in, in when we look at the arrogance of space that we've had, in designing our roadways, we'll go back to this, this image here where we've got the church in the background and we've got the transit stop with absolutely no accessible way for somebody to get to and wait and get disembark off of the bus.

00:50:25:29 - 00:50:50:26
John Simmerman
I mean, this this is an arrogance of space for prioritizing the movement of motor vehicles. But the good news is, is we've got a lot of space. In other words, all that has to really be done is this to be programed. I mean, in, in many very, very old cities. I mean, you spent some time in New York, in, in very, very old cities here in North America as well as, you know, old cities in Europe.

00:50:50:29 - 00:51:10:29
John Simmerman
You don't necessarily have this sort of space available. We have this space available. We just need to redefine it, reimagine what it can be so that it can be redesigned and be a you know, all ages, safe and inviting place for all ages and all abilities.

00:51:11:02 - 00:51:28:06
Anna Zivarts
Exactly. No, I mean, you go to, you know, especially cities in the West, there's so much road space. Yes, yes. And and it really is time to reimagine it and reimagine it, even, you know, beyond. Maybe you don't even need that much space for mobility, right? Maybe some of it can be housing, maybe some of it can be green space, you know.

00:51:28:06 - 00:51:30:18
Anna Zivarts
But yeah, I mean, Texas, right. Yeah.

00:51:30:19 - 00:51:51:10
John Simmerman
I mean, so you say this is sort of rural, Washington area here. I mean, I don't I don't I'm not a transportation engineer. I can't off the top of my head, tell you what this is built for in terms of the number of vehicles, on a daily basis. But I guarantee you it's way overbuilt. There's no reason for this many lanes.

00:51:51:12 - 00:52:22:09
John Simmerman
so. Yeah, you're absolutely right. This could be an opportunity for, additional safer mobility facilities as well as opportunities for maybe some paving and addressing. Another aspect that you did cover in the book is, you know, we've got a little issue of a climate crisis going on. And so that also could be, you know, something that we're taking into consideration here is, you know, trying to, you know, make it a greener, lusher or cooler place as well.

00:52:22:12 - 00:52:52:06
John Simmerman
And when I see the word cooler, you know, somebody who's living in Austin, Texas, one of the things that just irks me is when I see a transit stop like this have absolutely no shade. You know, for somebody who's waiting for for transit and the fact that they're being exposed to those extreme temperatures, talk a little bit about that, because I think that's just it just doesn't very it angers me a little bit because it kind of gets to a theme that you had mentioned.

00:52:52:08 - 00:53:04:04
John Simmerman
There was a I think it was a director of planning in, oh gosh, help me out here. Which city was the director of planning? She has a week long challenge or, you know, for for her staff.

00:53:04:08 - 00:53:07:00
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. Christina. Swallow. Yes. In Tucson in.

00:53:07:00 - 00:53:09:12
John Simmerman
Tucson. Thank you very much. Another matter.

00:53:09:15 - 00:53:30:02
Anna Zivarts
Yeah. So when she did the challenge. But yeah, I and I lived in Tucson for a little bit. So I've been, you know, like, shade is shade is critical. Absolutely. And without it, you know, you can't it's deadly. Right to be waiting for the bus in the summer. So yeah. How you know and end with all the pavement reflecting heat around you like that.

00:53:30:02 - 00:53:45:06
Anna Zivarts
That is just, you know, you you learn how to find the shade real quick and, you know, stuff like this. And this is, this is a part of our state in Washington that's quite hot as well, in the summer. So, you know, those, those shade pieces are, are really important on it.

00:53:45:06 - 00:54:11:06
John Simmerman
Thank you so very much. This has been an absolute joy and pleasure. I'm going to pull your, your your book up here real quick. It is available in the active towns bookshop right here. And we'll scroll on down. There you are right there. Right. between confessions of a Recovering Engineer by Chuck maroon with Strong Towns and the brand new by Bicycle City Book, that is coming out from Professor Daniel Kowski at Oslo Met University.

00:54:11:08 - 00:54:18:28
John Simmerman
And again, this is published by Island Press. Thank you so much, Ion Press, for doing that. And, the book is coming out.

00:54:18:28 - 00:54:29:24
Anna Zivarts
Win book is coming out May 9th. So I'm, I'm so excited and I yeah, really thank you for having me on and, and the opportunity to talk about this work. It's been a wonderful conversation.

00:54:29:27 - 00:54:45:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. Fantastic. And, and this is dropping this is happening. This is going out on May 1st. So folks, you have eight days to get your preorders in. Please order this book. It is an absolute delight. And on a thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:54:45:05 - 00:54:47:02
Anna Zivarts
Thank you. Take care.

00:54:47:04 - 00:55:03:01
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with an Aussie Arts and if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

00:55:03:03 - 00:55:26:01
John Simmerman
And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts. It's easy to do. Just head on over to the Active Towns website. Active towns dot o r g. Click on the support button. There's several different options, including becoming a Patreon supporter. All patrons do have access to all my video content early and ad free, so that is a very nice bonus.

00:55:26:03 - 00:55:48:18
John Simmerman
also. Hey, you know, consider picking things up from the Active Town store. I've got some really nice, schwag out there, including the coffee mugs and t shirts, which we talk about in this episode. I really do appreciate you tuning in each week, and I really appreciate any support you're able to provide. and until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness.

00:55:48:20 - 00:56:08:09
John Simmerman
Cheers. And again, sending a huge thank you out to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patreon. Buy me a coffee YouTube. Super! Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the Active Town Store. Every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated. Thank you all so much.