Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:18
Michela Grasso
From the summer school, which I've helped with, you know, done some assistance with. I just love to see this, cultural shock that the people experience because many of the students are often from Australia, United States, New Zealand. So it's extremely car centric, areas or for Damien, we grew up in a suburb the the first time in Europe here.

00:00:22:24 - 00:00:45:29
John Simmerman
And welcome to the active towns. You know, my name is John Simmerman and that is Michela Grasso from the Urban Cycling Institute. We're going to be chatting a little bit about, Urban Cycling Institute and some of the writings that she has been, engaged with over the past couple of years. But before we do that, I just want to say, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns ambassador.

00:00:46:06 - 00:01:02:20
John Simmerman
It's super easy to do. Just click on the YouTube join button right down below, or navigate over to Active towns.org and click on the support tab at the top of the page. Okay, let's get right to it with Michaela.

00:01:02:22 - 00:01:07:20
John Simmerman
Michela Grasso, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:01:07:23 - 00:01:12:18
Michela Grasso
Thank you so much for inviting me. And on behalf of Urban Cycling Institute.

00:01:12:20 - 00:01:33:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, you are with the Urban Cycling Institute. And we've had Meredith Glaser on, several times over the many years. And she and I have had many bike rides together there in Amsterdam. So, what I love to do is give my guest just an opportunity to introduce themselves. So please take the floor.

00:01:33:04 - 00:01:55:00
Michela Grasso
Thank you. My name is Michela. I am, Italian. I come from a small city close to Milano, and I have been living in the Netherlands for seven years. I live in Amsterdam. I moved here for my bachelor in political science. Then I lived, I was in France, and I decided to study mobility during my masters in Urban and regional Planning.

00:01:55:02 - 00:02:20:04
Michela Grasso
And I focus on two specific topic. My first master was in development studies and mobility, and I looked at how mobility could support the cultural heritage of a very small town, in southern Italy, where my grandma is from and from my second master in urban planning, I focused on elderly people in the city of Almeria and the relationship with mobility in the 50 minute city.

00:02:20:06 - 00:02:37:19
Michela Grasso
And now I work for the Urban Cycling Institute, where I mostly organize the Italian educational programs, and I have worked in some publications, and I work in Almeria for the University of Applied Science, of been the same where I do my research on the 50 minute city.

00:02:37:22 - 00:02:56:23
John Simmerman
Wow. Okay. Fascinating. All right. So let's let's unpack some of this stuff because this is a really fascinating. So a smaller town there in Italy just outside of Milan. That's fantastic. So and then how on earth did you end up, you know, making your way to the Netherlands?

00:02:56:25 - 00:03:09:26
Michela Grasso
This is actually quite interesting because I lived in the United States in high school, and I did an exchange here. So like many exchange students, I live in, small town in Oregon, and I really.

00:03:09:28 - 00:03:13:26
John Simmerman
I did an exchange program, too. I went to the Philippines.

00:03:13:28 - 00:03:36:12
Michela Grasso
Oh, my God. Okay. That's it. Wow. Amazing. And I live with a Dutch family. Like a proper Dutch family from the Netherlands. Like, move there recently they kind of adopted me for one year and I don't know, I 16. I didn't realize what I think they passed to me, something about Dutch culture. So I thought, well, let me try to get into University of Amsterdam.

00:03:36:13 - 00:03:42:09
Michela Grasso
I speak English and I don't want to be an intern anymore. So let's try it and that's it. Yeah.

00:03:42:12 - 00:04:04:18
John Simmerman
Okay. So fantastic. So that that experience of being able to experience the Netherlands, as a younger student, you were able to like. Oh, okay. So talk about the cultural shift. I mean, how is that different from Italy and from the United States? And then, I mean, I imagine there was a little bit of culture shock there.

00:04:04:20 - 00:04:27:02
Michela Grasso
Yes, definitely. I think the culture shock was bigger when I moved to the United States and when I moved to the Netherlands, if I have to be honest, because, yeah, yeah, I think between European cultures, it's kind of similar. I as a teenager, you have a lot of independence in general to move yourself and your parents, of course, they care about you, but they trust you very much with like come home whenever you want.

00:04:27:04 - 00:04:46:10
Michela Grasso
Like, drink responsibly, you know, you do you while in the United States, it was like another world I had to rely on. Always someone driving me around, which was a nightmare because we lived, deep in these woods. So it's not like there was a bus I really had to rely on, private transportation of my family.

00:04:46:13 - 00:05:07:04
Michela Grasso
And this. The school system was very different. So it was very interesting. While with the Netherlands, my culture shock was definitely the bike in Italy, I wasn't used to biking. I was, public transport girl, 100%, I loved thing I like and I loved. I had to take the bus in the train all the time. I was used to it.

00:05:07:06 - 00:05:24:10
Michela Grasso
Also going to parties, coming back from parties, train a bus when there was a possibility in the Netherlands, the fact that you could just ride around at night, safely during the day and just go anywhere, put the bike on the boat, put the bike on the metro. It was, very, very different.

00:05:24:12 - 00:06:07:29
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Gosh. That's fantastic. I love the origin stories of, you know, that introduction to that? And I get the sense that the, the that, that was the seed that was probably planted in terms of the role that the bicycle can have in terms of mobility. You mentioned that it wasn't as prominent there in Italy for you, but then with that time in the Netherlands and then, again, that concept of, oh, yeah, everybody's getting around by walking and biking and transit and sometimes driving, but it's like I call it, a plethora of mobility choices, that you all have, access to there in the Netherlands.

00:06:07:29 - 00:06:39:21
John Simmerman
And so that's fantastic. So you mentioned sort of around your masters, you started really kind of getting into and thinking about mobility and transportation a little bit more, thoughtfully and and engaging with it in, you know, obviously making it part of your career now too. So what was the seed there? What really was it? Was there a, like a light bulb moment or to just sort of ooze in and take control of you?

00:06:39:24 - 00:07:02:19
Michela Grasso
Yeah, I think it was it was interesting because I studied political science. So at the core, I am really a social sociologist. Social science person, and I wanted to continue on this line, and we had to think of a master's thesis for the development studies master. And it's a master where it's, let's say, mandatory to go abroad for a couple of months and conducted work.

00:07:02:19 - 00:07:27:11
Michela Grasso
And since its development, a lot of people go towards cooperation. So they go maybe to Southeast Asia or African countries. And I thought, I come from a country where there is so much need of development in Italy, and I assume that is very developed. And the thing that needs the most development in Italy, according to me, you know, when I come home from the Netherlands, the thing I'm missing the most is a mobility system that is well structured.

00:07:27:13 - 00:07:40:28
Michela Grasso
So I cannot happy to have this idea. And I also wanted to go very bad back home for a couple of months. And, you know, just be with my family, be with my grandma's village. So that was a great option. Yeah.

00:07:41:01 - 00:07:55:02
John Simmerman
And the fact that you, you had the wherewithal to do that first master's study, you know, looking at those that small village and, when you say small village, how big would be that village? How many what's the population?

00:07:55:05 - 00:07:57:12
Michela Grasso
It's, around a thousand people.

00:07:57:14 - 00:08:19:18
John Simmerman
Okay. Thousand people. Yeah. So very, very small. I mean, I grew up in a small Northern California, town city not far from where Meredith actually grew up. But but it was small to, like, 4000 people, which is incredibly small for California, so. Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of have that, that thing. Let's let's pull up some, some images here.

00:08:19:18 - 00:08:39:20
John Simmerman
So you're now doing some work there with the Urban Cycling Institute. We've got their web page right here, the landing page for the website. And you know, we talked before we hit the record button that you're sort of like decompressing after a very, very busy week last week. What was going on that was so busy.

00:08:39:22 - 00:09:00:01
Michela Grasso
Yeah. We had the Cycling Research Board conference, which is a conference that happens once a year in, different European cities. Every year is a new one. Or like, I'm from it has been a couple of times actually. And a lot of practitioners and academics just come together and discuss cycling, discuss their research findings, or make workshops.

00:09:00:01 - 00:09:06:26
Michela Grasso
So, as a part of the team I was helping out then I also had a workshop. So it was a very intense, couple of days. Yeah.

00:09:06:28 - 00:09:17:10
John Simmerman
Yeah. And here's, here's the the little reference to it, the Cycling Research Board annual meeting. And this is fantastic. This has been going on for a few years here now right.

00:09:17:10 - 00:09:21:11
Michela Grasso
Yeah. Nine years. Yeah yeah yeah. So it's great.

00:09:21:13 - 00:09:44:28
John Simmerman
I do keep, teasing, Meredith, that I'll crash the party one of these days. I'm not doing actively doing research anymore. I mean, I used to do research 30 years ago. But, or more than 30 years ago. 35 years ago. But that was, research in cardiology and pharmacology and with the medical school, there in Michigan.

00:09:44:28 - 00:09:56:03
John Simmerman
But, yeah. So I have research in my bones and in my blood, but, I have I have never really dabbled into actual formal research in this world. So, yeah.

00:09:56:05 - 00:10:04:09
Michela Grasso
This is going to be very different than a cardiology research. It's very, very interactive. And, it's it's great, I love it.

00:10:04:12 - 00:10:10:10
John Simmerman
Yeah, this is good stuff. What do you love most about being a researcher?

00:10:10:13 - 00:10:32:17
Michela Grasso
Interesting. I think the part I love the most is writing. I am, yeah, I love to write. At my core, I work as a journalist, freelance from my university. I always was involved with writing a lot, so the possibility of writing in a different way and being able to support maybe a community that is in need of like findings for me is very important.

00:10:32:17 - 00:10:53:06
Michela Grasso
Like as a researcher, we are seen as more legitimate. Then there may be activists or grassroots organizations, and we can really support, issues of like people that are normally not heard through our research so we can bring their needs to the surface, I think. I don't I love that.

00:10:53:08 - 00:11:14:03
John Simmerman
I love that too, and I love the way that you frame that as well, because, you know, as somebody who started out in research, then moved into practical application of public health and, you know, worked for many, many years, over a decade in, you know, really trying to have an impact on health and well-being and getting people more active.

00:11:14:05 - 00:11:38:10
John Simmerman
I had that practical side of things, you know, before I decided to shift gears and, get more into advocacy. And then now, having been in this world for, you know, for quite some time and working on that, I love how you sort of outlined all of that and delineated, and, and here's, in fact, one year publications that you were a part of writing.

00:11:38:12 - 00:11:58:04
Michela Grasso
Yes. The manifesto for Cycling Futures. It was, it was a really long publication to make. I won't deny that. It drove me crazy sometimes, but it was for me, and I'm very happy to to have to have made it. Yes, sort of work with it. It was really cool writing effort as well. Yeah.

00:11:58:06 - 00:12:21:11
John Simmerman
Yeah. And, I'll do a little zoom in to this just a little bit and, and check this out. Yeah. So this is, this is how we got connected because this came out in late February, early March, I think, of this year. And I'm like, wait a minute, who is this girl? Luckily, I haven't met her yet.

00:12:21:13 - 00:12:33:01
John Simmerman
What's going on here? We've got a manifesto. Talk a little bit about the choice of the word, the terminology, calling it a manifesto. Why a manifesto?

00:12:33:03 - 00:12:51:15
Michela Grasso
Yeah, I really like the word manifesto. So, of course, it was not my choice to call it a manifesto. I was told you we have to make a manifesto for Cycling Futures, which was a really long process that involved a lot of co-writing co working with a lot of people, because of course I just edited it and rewrote.

00:12:51:15 - 00:13:19:09
Michela Grasso
It's kind of a manifesto. I really like the word because it's the political word, so it doesn't hide that the actions are political. Everything we do is political and everything we do has an impact on others. And manifesto is a term from, I think the 19th century started to emerge more and more, and I love that it was used by these groups of people who were able to imagine the future and were able to write sets of actions that outline their ideal futures.

00:13:19:11 - 00:13:35:02
Michela Grasso
And I think that nowadays we really struggle with imagining futures, imagining possible futures. And this is a pity because it is, it's very intrinsically human to be able to imagine. And I like that the manifesto gives a pathway to a different future.

00:13:35:04 - 00:13:52:07
John Simmerman
Yeah. Okay. We got to give the authors some credit here. So here it will scroll through all of the people who were involved because like you said, yeah, it was it was difficult to kind of wrangle all these folks. Have you ever have you ever heard the term herding cats?

00:13:52:09 - 00:13:54:25
Michela Grasso
No. Okay.

00:13:54:27 - 00:14:09:29
John Simmerman
Yeah. You can you can imagine, cats, you know, they just kind of go where they want to go. I would imagine, you know, working with all of these characters, there was probably a little bit of like, okay, okay, Marco, you. We need to get this from you.

00:14:10:01 - 00:14:11:21
Michela Grasso
Yeah.

00:14:11:24 - 00:14:26:13
John Simmerman
I'm teasing Marco because, he's also been on the on the channel before, too, so, that's that's good stuff. So who is the manifesto really written for? Who's the audience?

00:14:26:15 - 00:14:57:27
Michela Grasso
Yeah. So the idea of the manifesto is to be for policymakers. Ideally. The ideal audience, of course, is the average policymaker. Well, maybe has never had the opportunity to, I imagine, engage with like different, visions of mobility. So it offers like a different vision and a way to get to that vision. But in the end, it's also very much for academics and for students, because it's a great example of how you can work together with different people to co-create, a concrete element.

00:14:57:27 - 00:15:21:03
Michela Grasso
So the manifesto in this case, and I also really like, how we produced it. So we did all this series of workshops, workshops this year with previous alumni because we have like, education programs as well, and we divided it in different narratives that outline mobility. And together we brainstorm. And these people are very different from each other.

00:15:21:03 - 00:15:39:27
Michela Grasso
There are policymakers, there are students that are activists. There are really government officers. It was like someone who work for the mayor of LA. So there were a lot of people that had completely different experiences. And, so for this reason, the manifesto is also for different backgrounds because of the people who created it. Yeah.

00:15:39:29 - 00:16:10:23
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I love I love this section here where it says, you're going to use this manifesto to start conversations and influence change and, and I think that's a, that's a really good part of what we're talking about here is, is yes, research is serious and all of that, but we need to be able to leverage these papers and these documents into documents like this so that we can, again, start having these discussions and, and move forward, move it forward.

00:16:10:25 - 00:16:23:10
John Simmerman
You mentioned that you, you know, that this was a huge project. There was another huge project that you were involved with too, and that was the field guide. What's the difference between the two? What's the field guide versus the manifesto?

00:16:23:15 - 00:16:50:23
Michela Grasso
Yeah. So the field guide was the president of the manifesto. It came out in June of the year before. Yeah. It was basically it's also fun. Sorry, because I went to Meredith in February, 20, 24 asking her for an interview for a newspaper I was working for. And at the end of the interview, she told me I need someone to make around 70 interviews for me and and write it down, create stories.

00:16:50:25 - 00:16:54:27
Michela Grasso
And are you interested? I was like, oh my God, I would love to do that.

00:16:55:01 - 00:17:00:17
John Simmerman
Like, I and and there she is right there. That's Meredith. Yes. So we keep talking about. Yeah.

00:17:00:19 - 00:17:21:18
Michela Grasso
So that's how we met and that's how the field guide started. So it's a collection of 70 around 63, something like that. Interviews of people who participate in our programs that show how urban planning education can be made in different ways. So it can be made not just in a frontal classroom, but it should be made with like, experience at the core.

00:17:21:25 - 00:17:30:14
Michela Grasso
And these are like the origins of the people we interviewed in the manifesto. So we try to keep as many places as possible. Yeah, yeah, fantastic.

00:17:30:17 - 00:17:38:06
John Simmerman
That is good stuff. And I think that, you know, this cycling class, the, the yeah.

00:17:38:06 - 00:17:39:09
Michela Grasso
Planning the second.

00:17:39:11 - 00:17:50:27
John Simmerman
City, I think I was, I was one of the alumnus from the very, very first time when it first came out, version 1.0 yeah. So that was a few years ago and that was fun.

00:17:51:00 - 00:17:53:07
Michela Grasso
I think was the first one maybe.

00:17:53:10 - 00:17:54:13
John Simmerman
What time.

00:17:54:16 - 00:17:57:28
Michela Grasso
It was in 2015? The first one, I don't know if you were in that one.

00:17:58:05 - 00:18:02:18
John Simmerman
Yeah, I know that sounds about right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:02:24 - 00:18:06:29
Michela Grasso
There are a on from there. Maybe you will recognize them if you look.

00:18:07:01 - 00:18:16:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's been a while. I was the first one that was online. Was that the first one online or was the 15 in person.

00:18:16:23 - 00:18:18:13
Michela Grasso
No I 15 was in person.

00:18:18:20 - 00:18:44:21
John Simmerman
Online was the first one. Yeah. When they, when they repackaged it and they put it out online because I did it, I did it from my desktop here in, in Austin, Texas and and all that. And one of the reasons I know Meredith so well and have had so much interaction with her is because of multiple trips, to the Netherlands back in 2018 and 2019, I think 2018.

00:18:44:21 - 00:19:05:24
John Simmerman
We missed seeing each other because she was busy doing something else. Oh, that's right, she was giving birth. She was having a kid, but but but, but her reputation preceded her. And so, she and I have talked a lot about the learning experiences and that whole concept of the study tours and all of that.

00:19:06:00 - 00:19:29:17
John Simmerman
Now, you had mentioned that you're you're helping coordinate now the interactions and the the learning experiences with the Italians. Talk a little bit more about that. Is that similar to the, the whole that whole concept of bringing some people over and helping show them the Dutch way and, and seeing how it can be interpreted into an Italian way.

00:19:29:20 - 00:19:50:09
Michela Grasso
Yes. Basically it's very similar. So we have the summer school, which is very long, is two weeks, very intense. Everyone is out. It's very diverse group from all over the world in English. Then we have the Spanish one of one week. And since we have a lot of Italians who participate in our courses and we have Italians, I mean, there is me working for UCI, but we have a lot of contacts.

00:19:50:12 - 00:20:15:26
Michela Grasso
We decided to make this master class one week or so very intensive. We have another Italian organization called the Seizure, which mostly works with Italian, know cycling planning in northern Italy, let's say. And they are super good, like really, really great team. So I'm managing the classes I have, managed all the subscriptions and now they're coming in three weeks and I'm also responsible for it.

00:20:15:26 - 00:20:43:04
Michela Grasso
I give some classes on like gender and cycling the 60 minutes to all the afternoon activities which which are outdoor. And the goal is to really let them explore the city, to do some tasks and to see and feel it on their own, their skin, what it means to live in a cycling city. Because I am sure that so many people who work in cycling planning do not cycle, and I do really want them to experience is, you know, really feeling.

00:20:43:06 - 00:21:06:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. And a big part of that is doing just that is having that opportunity to experience it. You know, being able to get out on the bike in that environment and be able to see what it really feels like, because it's not the same as just studying it in books and studying it through an online class. And, you know, be thinking about it intellectually.

00:21:06:18 - 00:21:31:10
John Simmerman
It means a lot more when you can actually frame that and have some of those thoughts have that is maybe your base, but then get out and experience it and then be able to pull to the side and talk about it. And, Meredith and I have had this conversation multiple times of, you know, what's best when you when you can have, like, representatives from multiple different cities coming in and then coming together and doing it.

00:21:31:13 - 00:21:53:03
John Simmerman
And so they're like peers from, you know, multiple cities, you know, to different D.O.T. directors talking to each other or whatever, or whether you have from one city, a whole bunch of representatives that can then go back to their city and say, oh, yeah, remember when we experienced this and we saw how they were doing this? And there's pros and cons to both.

00:21:53:03 - 00:21:55:06
John Simmerman
And so we talked a little bit about that.

00:21:55:06 - 00:22:15:09
Michela Grasso
But they've been really successful I think last year I was not part of it. They were doing some of the French municipalities and yeah. If I'm not wrong, the one of the people who came from the municipalities really never biked before and after this trip came home, bought a bike, and it was a by bike. And so I do promoting cycling like this is a big shock.

00:22:15:09 - 00:22:19:17
Michela Grasso
Like to travel in this way. So it's work can work. Yeah.

00:22:19:19 - 00:22:41:21
John Simmerman
I'm really glad you mentioned that too, because I've seen that too. I've seen people who have been on these study tours, and then they get back here to the United States and they, you know, immediately have gone out and bought new relaxed upright bikes. They may have like a mountain bike in their garage. They may have like a road bike in their garage, but those are hunched over and feel like you're racing somewhere at once.

00:22:41:21 - 00:23:02:12
John Simmerman
You experience riding on all of these like we have in screen here. Relaxed, upright Dutch bike. It's just it kind of changes everything because it puts you in a different posture. You're like you're you're riding along and you can see everything that's going around you can make eye contact with folks. You can carry on a conversation with people all around you very, very comfortably.

00:23:02:12 - 00:23:16:29
John Simmerman
So I think it it's is so important. And then that's, that's like one little tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny bit of the magic that is one of these, educational opportunities of being able to do a studies 32 or over there.

00:23:17:03 - 00:23:26:18
Michela Grasso
Definitely. Yeah, I love it. I really like to see this. Yeah. What happens? You see these people really engaging with the city. It's growing and becoming friends as well.

00:23:26:20 - 00:23:45:23
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And becoming friends as well. Now, what's the what's your most cherished memory from those types of interactions that where you're dealing you're getting these Italians over and they're they're your people. You're like, okay, now I'll show you a little bit of Dutch and but what's your most cherished memory from from those interactions.

00:23:45:29 - 00:24:08:09
Michela Grasso
I would say the Italian food Italian group. It's coming for the first time now. So we have never had it before. That's why it's a big, big theme for me. But from the summer school, which I've helped, we've done some assistance with, I just love to see this, cultural shock that the people experience because many of the students are often from Australia, United States, New Zealand.

00:24:08:12 - 00:24:29:16
Michela Grasso
So it's extremely car centric, areas or for them. We grew up in a suburb. They have the first time in Europe. So I love to organize nights. Like when they were here, it was the Eurocup the Netherlands was playing. So we went to the bike, to the bar. They were like experience this weird football culture. Everyone was dancing and singing around them.

00:24:29:16 - 00:24:33:12
Michela Grasso
It was really nice. It's nice to see them integrate, you know.

00:24:33:13 - 00:24:35:05
John Simmerman
Was that last summer?

00:24:35:07 - 00:24:36:10
Michela Grasso
Yes, it was, yeah.

00:24:36:11 - 00:24:52:00
John Simmerman
I was there at that same time, so I was, I was there, in the Netherlands during the Euro Cup, things. And that was so much fun to be able to experience all that excitement and watch many of the matches, with, with some of my Dutch friends over there. So.

00:24:52:03 - 00:24:54:02
Michela Grasso
Yeah, it's really fun, you know.

00:24:54:04 - 00:25:17:29
John Simmerman
And, and this is back to the website here. And this is, you know, looking at the type of work that the Urban Cycling Institute is doing. And again, they're looking at bridging the cycling research and practice for actionable responses. And that's what I love so much about what is happening here. It's like leveraging that research background, but also looking at how you get things practically into operations.

00:25:17:29 - 00:25:22:13
John Simmerman
And then spreading that around the world. And that's exactly what you all are doing.

00:25:22:19 - 00:25:29:26
Michela Grasso
Yes. Now it's, it's great to be part of it and to really see this happening with my eyes.

00:25:29:29 - 00:25:57:06
John Simmerman
So we mentioned it earlier. You're a writer, and so I'm seeing more and more, little pieces coming up, from you as you are, you know, publishing more things. And so one of the things that I really want to do is, is to promote the fact that you guys have a Substack now. And so your Substack is here as soon as it came up, I, I, I paid my money, I got my gifts, I got my, my subscription to it.

00:25:57:06 - 00:26:22:28
John Simmerman
I highly recommend everybody, go to urban, urban Cycling institute.substack.com. And, and, you know, get a subscription. You know, maybe try a little, a little bit, maybe I can give you a gift. Subscription, I think I think I've got my button right there. I could gift, a subscription to somebody. But, yeah, talk a little bit about this, because this has been a neat, neat shift that has happened in the last year or so.

00:26:23:01 - 00:26:34:03
John Simmerman
Is that, you are all intentionally writing a lot more, and then publishing it out here in this, in this format.

00:26:34:06 - 00:27:02:27
Michela Grasso
Yeah. It's really, like, the key to get out of our ivory towers of university is really to go out in the world and produce, concrete writing pieces of our videos or photo for authors in a way that can convey our message to other audiences that are not academic. And what I really like about the Substack is that it gives us of the team, maybe also people who don't publish that much, who work a bit in the backside to publish and to put out their voice and the research they're doing.

00:27:03:00 - 00:27:21:15
Michela Grasso
And also we give the opportunity to people who are not part of our team to write if they have meaningful research and if they have done some work with cycling and they want to talk about it, they are like, welcome to send an email to remind Cycling Institute. I think there should be an email on this website or on a website and just, pitch an article.

00:27:21:15 - 00:27:44:01
Michela Grasso
And it's very likely that if it's good, it will be published. And it's a very big audience. So it's nice to also have an interdisciplinary, interdisciplinary look from different countries, different backgrounds, and also very, very different stories. So you have articles from Ukraine's article from Maui. It's, articles from Bonaire. It's really interesting to see these.

00:27:44:03 - 00:27:47:21
John Simmerman
That that's that's funny from Maui, Hawaii.

00:27:47:23 - 00:27:52:09
Michela Grasso
Yeah. We have one article live on Maui and I go cycling in Maui. Yeah.

00:27:52:12 - 00:28:14:01
John Simmerman
I love it, I love it. You know, I'm laughing about that because it was a good, good likelihood or good possibility that by the time this episode gets back, I will be living back in Hawaii, on the big Island, on the island right next to Maui, on the Big Island. So I'll be, yes, if I haven't made the move, folks, I'm moving.

00:28:14:03 - 00:28:25:18
John Simmerman
I'm going to be moving back home to, to to the Big Island. I say home because that's where I came from. When I moved here to Austin, Texas, 11 years ago. Yeah. So.

00:28:25:20 - 00:28:28:18
Michela Grasso
Well, we have contact in Maui, so you're welcome to come.

00:28:28:25 - 00:28:48:05
John Simmerman
Now, I know that that'd be fun. In fact, I'll just. Oh, Highland Island, jump in, you know, hop over there and, do some playing around in Maui. It's been many, many years, but I did want to highlight this article that you wrote, just not too terribly long ago in July. Because this is something you're passionate about.

00:28:48:05 - 00:28:51:01
John Simmerman
Walk. Walk us through this.

00:28:51:03 - 00:29:11:25
Michela Grasso
Yeah. I had this idea for this article because I was I'm always been interested in this, history part. I think it comes from my political science background as well. I just like to look at facts from the past and stories, and I've always been really tied to the history of written and resistance. And, what has happened in World War Two in Italy.

00:29:11:28 - 00:29:48:19
Michela Grasso
And I found a book called The Italian Resistance and Bicycles. So I was reading it and I was like, oh my God, this needs an article written about it, because it's so interesting. There are so many stories. And it was all from my province. So I decided to tie some stories together about the European resistance that make it, go beyond the Italian one and look first at the as the to the bike as a means of, resistance for the working class because of course, moving faster, going to new places, gave new visibility to the working class, new accessibility to new neighborhoods, new possibilities of new jobs also for women, it shortened addresses

00:29:48:19 - 00:30:07:08
Michela Grasso
because they had to cycle and then it was also massively used, during World War Two, of course, by armies, but also and especially by the resistance fighters who were able to escape checkpoints and carry on their operations in, Italy, the Netherlands, France. So, really interesting.

00:30:07:10 - 00:30:38:21
John Simmerman
Yeah, I, I remember I can't remember which book or article it was in, that talked a little bit about how with the Nazi occupation of, the Netherlands, how they, realized just how much the Dutch loved having their bicycles and being, you know, that that, that sense of mobility, freedom and being able to get around. And so, it didn't take them long to figure out we need to get those bikes away from the Dutch.

00:30:38:23 - 00:30:44:02
John Simmerman
And so because they realized that was such a big part of, of their identity. So yeah.

00:30:44:04 - 00:31:06:07
Michela Grasso
Yes. And like really they use bicycles for everything. They even had printing presses, connected to them, illegal ones to make leaflets for, you know, for the resistance movement and anti-Nazi movements. So it was really used in many, many different ways. And then the Germans didn't take many, especially to escape ones. The war was getting worse and worse.

00:31:06:09 - 00:31:14:07
Michela Grasso
And, yeah, it was quite a meme in the. No, I mean, that's the wrong word. After the war, to say to the Germans, like, give me my bike back.

00:31:14:10 - 00:31:21:15
John Simmerman
Right? Yes. That that was that that actually was a call to action is like, give me my bike back. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

00:31:21:18 - 00:31:21:29
Michela Grasso
Yeah, I'll.

00:31:22:00 - 00:31:40:11
John Simmerman
Have to figure out what book that was. It was it was a fascinating, account of the history of, of that whole era and, and what was going on there. So I want to transition a little bit to you talking a little bit about some of your other areas of passion and some of the other writing. But I'll, I'll turn it over to you.

00:31:40:13 - 00:31:47:15
John Simmerman
What would you like to talk about next in terms of, the things that you're really is kind of mulling over in your brain?

00:31:47:17 - 00:32:06:01
Michela Grasso
Yeah. So I think the last two weeks has been, very intense is because I had to go from one of topics to the another of the things I'm passionate about. So I've had in, CRB, I did a workshop on bridging the gap between, academia and activism. Then I had another conference last week, about multispecies living.

00:32:06:08 - 00:32:32:12
Michela Grasso
So then I did a workshop on how we can include multi-species mobility in our city, which is something insane. And, I was making people play as, a rat, a doc, a child to understand how they move in the city and how they conflict with each others. And tomorrow I'm giving a lecture at, the University of Applied Science here about elderly people and mobility, which was my master's thesis.

00:32:32:17 - 00:32:55:14
Michela Grasso
So these are the things that have been really, in my mind lately. Perhaps that is a good topic to talk about because it's, yeah, I've done a lot of research on this for my master and also afterwards. And it's related to more of my other job and the other university and, it's in Elmira. So it's this, city in the Netherlands is a new town.

00:32:55:14 - 00:33:19:11
Michela Grasso
It was built in the 70s in this region that didn't exist before Cleveland and is super interesting as a city because to me, it's extremely fascinating to think that people arrived in a city that was entirely built and entirely empty. It sounds, like you're inhabiting like an Ikea or something like that, you know, like prefabricated, ward.

00:33:19:14 - 00:33:41:26
Michela Grasso
And it didn't take long to understand that it was, first of all, a dormitory town because everyone was working in Amsterdam, which is 20 minutes by train. And second of all, that there was, absolute lack of social interaction because since everyone had their social network in Amsterdam and they came there to have a bigger and cheaper house, they didn't really have an interest, in interaction.

00:33:41:29 - 00:34:02:25
Michela Grasso
And so the interest kind of faded away. And now Elmira is a city that is huge. It's one of the biggest city in the Netherlands in population and in size is just ginormous for Dutch standard. And yes, there is a big struggle with this interaction and this is what my department is researching, is trying to understand how can this be improved?

00:34:02:25 - 00:34:26:02
Michela Grasso
Because a lot of the neighborhoods are 50 minute cities. They are structured on proximity, but yet the proximity idea that you will have more interaction doesn't really work there. And I looked especially at elderly people because I find it very sad. While researching there, I see that the people who moved there in the 70s were young and kids and wanting to.

00:34:26:02 - 00:34:42:29
Michela Grasso
Bigger houses are now old and their kids have moved out, traveled to Elmira because they didn't like it or they wanted to go somewhere else. So they live alone in these huge houses. They live their whole life in Amsterdam, and their friends were there, so they became all they struggle with moving. They lose their friendship. They become lonely.

00:34:43:01 - 00:35:07:17
Michela Grasso
Loneliness, bring mental health problems, mental health problems, physical health problems. And then you need home care or hospital care, which is, horrible for the person itself. It removes a lot of your independence, but it's also very bad for the state as a whole. Like it's, it's expensive. It takes a lot of, effort and resources. And there are not enough carers in the Netherlands right now.

00:35:07:17 - 00:35:33:27
Michela Grasso
So imagine in a few years when it's going to be insane and, so my research was really looking at, since cycling is and moving, active mobility is are great for social interaction. How do people move and what are their needs. And it was really interesting to see, first of all, to talk to these, people who were maybe 80 or 90 and, of course, I talked to the ones who were outside.

00:35:34:03 - 00:35:54:10
Michela Grasso
So maybe they were lonely. But the loneliness I never met because it wouldn't probably come out of the house and. Yes. Yeah. And, of course, you know, electric bikes are a huge help. But if it's too hot, if it's too cold, it's difficult to go out. Walking is very hard, in the winter and in summer as well.

00:35:54:12 - 00:36:19:00
Michela Grasso
Dogs are a great help to go out because they kind of force you to bring them, out, you know, on a daily walks. And, a lot of women didn't have driving licenses. So once Aspen died, they didn't have ways to really move around the city, which was also an interesting find for the Netherlands, which many people assume is very equal, but actually not as much, especially in that generation.

00:36:19:03 - 00:36:41:03
Michela Grasso
So it was nice, and I realized that the 50 Minute City, while it's a great concept, it doesn't account for the fact that 50 minutes for me is a different 50 minutes for you. So what I work in 15 minutes is not what a grandma works in 15 minutes or a child. So it's really important to, I think, focus a bit less on having all these measurements.

00:36:41:05 - 00:37:04:11
Michela Grasso
So 15 minute kilometers, but really focus on creating good neighborhood units that can, foster interaction, cohesion. And for example, like a lot of people complain, there were not enough benches. Benches are mobility aid for elderly people because they allow them to rest. But also you sit outside so you see your neighbors, you say hello. So it's like really interesting to see.

00:37:04:11 - 00:37:23:08
Michela Grasso
And in the mirror they're cutting kind of back on benches. So they're removing they're not renewing them. And I know it's very small. It's like it's really small elements of urban design. It's, it's not that crazy, but it can have a big, big impact on someone who relies on that specific bench one day. Just doesn't have it.

00:37:23:13 - 00:37:24:27
Michela Grasso
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:24:29 - 00:38:09:06
John Simmerman
And we saw some footage there of the video that I shot, with, one of my superfans of, of the channel, Valter, he, he took me out for, a little tour around El Mary, last summer, and, and. Yeah, you could just tell there wasn't that level of vibrancy of people out and about. And that's a big part of of combating social isolation is having more people that are out and about walking and biking and interacting and feeling like you're in an environment where, yeah, sure, I may have all of the things that I need within a 15 minute radius of me, but if there's like nobody else out there

00:38:09:06 - 00:38:35:15
John Simmerman
or very few people out there then or, or if the interaction that I have with people or with people going fast on motorcycles or e-bikes or cars, then that's not the same as when you're we have a richness of interactions with people of different ages, different backgrounds and being able to, you know, rub shoulders literally with them.

00:38:35:15 - 00:38:47:03
John Simmerman
And even if they're familiar strangers, because you see, you know, you see that, you know, person every single Wednesday when you're going to that particular shop. So.

00:38:47:05 - 00:38:51:03
Michela Grasso
Yes. But I'm curious to know, what did you think of cycling in Alameda?

00:38:51:05 - 00:39:25:16
John Simmerman
Well, I mean, obviously it's in context of what it is. I mean, you you laid it out brilliantly in, in giving the history of the fact that this was a place that was built literally from nothing. So basically it was filled in, you know, and and it was land that was created to be able to create housing. And so there's a little bit of a challenge to, in terms of being able to, you know, understand that it's not doesn't have the rich history of hundreds of years of, of people living there.

00:39:25:23 - 00:39:45:01
John Simmerman
So, the ride was delightful. I mean, it was just fine of of riding around and getting some, easy access to nature and all of that. And the people that we did interact with, they were clearly the families that we saw, the cargo bikes with, the kids in the family. They were clearly enjoying it a great deal.

00:39:45:03 - 00:40:11:27
John Simmerman
What I found interesting and, and I think my audience also found it, potentially helpful for is seeing how active mobility infrastructure was, in fact, installed in in place. Not all of it was perfect, but it gave a great deal of empowerment to an environment that looked very North American like, very suburban in context. You know, you saw houses.

00:40:11:27 - 00:40:39:12
John Simmerman
You mentioned it earlier. They went there so they could get a bigger house, etc., maybe even have a backyard or front yard, etc.. And so you saw that. And so it looked very American in that, that context. And yet we could get everywhere we needed to get to but on bike, because they had the, the safe infrastructure, separated pathways that went through the forested natural areas, but then also into the communities.

00:40:39:14 - 00:40:57:09
Michela Grasso
Yes, definitely. And also what I, what we are trying to find out in, I mean, about cycling is that not many people actually cycle. It's such an efficient city with, public transportation is really good, driving is very convenient. There is a lot of parking spots because it's so spread out and really made for like a 70 city.

00:40:57:11 - 00:41:23:22
Michela Grasso
So what we find a bit in the, cycle lanes by talking to young people is that they are a bit boring, you know, Amsterdam on a cycle lane. You cross through neighborhoods, you see people, you see different houses, you see different shops there. It's, so efficient to efficient that it just goes through the quickest ways in green and green areas, very fast, straight, perfect angles.

00:41:23:24 - 00:41:33:12
Michela Grasso
So you miss a bit the human element that you get in Amsterdam. I think if you do that every day it can be quite tiring. So you just want to get done with it. You just want to go for it. Yeah, yeah.

00:41:33:14 - 00:41:55:27
John Simmerman
On the flip side, you know, and I think that this is an important flip side to, to bring up because it is a situation where many people are suffering from nature deficit disorder. They don't have access to nature. And so this is something that is quite helpful because you do feel enveloped by nature. And it really kind of embraces you.

00:41:56:00 - 00:42:33:00
John Simmerman
And there's the way that we that I went back to the central station was a little bit less of the nature and a little bit more closer to fast moving traffic. And then you see the difference and you're like, oh, yeah, I could see that if I wanted my most efficient route, you know, you know, going to this particular destination, I'm next to these fast moving cars and I have my own separate space, but I hear them, I see them the pollution, the noise pollution in the in the exhaust pollution I'm being pummeled by versus the the earlier part of the route where we went through nature.

00:42:33:00 - 00:42:49:10
John Simmerman
And I'm like, I can see what you're saying. It gets kind of boring if it's a day after day after day. But at the same time, if you're exposed to a lot of noise and cars and danger, it's kind of nice to have that breath of fresh air and get into the nature.

00:42:49:13 - 00:42:57:01
Michela Grasso
Yeah, and I think this is a very Dutch problem, like, let's say first world problem. Like, oh no, we have the exact name.

00:42:57:03 - 00:43:02:22
John Simmerman
Oh no, we have choice of our cycle leads to. Oh, no.

00:43:02:24 - 00:43:13:18
Michela Grasso
So sometimes I was like, guys, let's let's take a step back. There are like really big issues in other places. And we're focusing on like really minuscule things. Yeah.

00:43:13:21 - 00:43:24:04
John Simmerman
Well, you mentioned, you know, it's a very much a touchy issue. And yes, we are we are teasing new, out there. But are you identifying as Dutch now? You've been there for so long.

00:43:24:07 - 00:43:48:02
Michela Grasso
No, I not, I am I am maybe more than I identify as Dutch. Identify as Amsterdam, which is a different identity. Not because I'm saying I'm in such a bubble and, 100% I am one in the sense that I live in the city. I've been living here a long time, but at the core I'm always Italian and I'm actually looking to move somewhere else.

00:43:48:02 - 00:44:01:14
Michela Grasso
I'm looking for a new job because, I want to experience a new environment that is not the Netherlands. Okay, okay, so I'm trying to see what I find, but, I love Amsterdam, and it's really like my city, you know?

00:44:01:15 - 00:44:08:21
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I would imagine you're probably not coming back to the United States.

00:44:08:23 - 00:44:15:26
Michela Grasso
Not now. Maybe that's not. Who knows, one day, but maybe. No, no.

00:44:15:29 - 00:44:26:08
John Simmerman
I think that's a wise decision. I think that's interesting. Is is there anything that we haven't yet covered that you want to make sure to leave the audience with?

00:44:26:11 - 00:44:32:28
Michela Grasso
I think we've covered all of my bases that I wanted to talk about for sure. I don't know if you have any other question.

00:44:33:00 - 00:44:54:17
John Simmerman
Not really, but I did want to just, once again, you know, really call out the great work that you all are doing there at the Urban Cycling Institute. Folks, there's many opportunities to engage, learn more. I believe they still have the the remote online learning opportunities. Is that correct? Yeah.

00:44:54:19 - 00:44:57:02
Michela Grasso
Yeah, it's on Coursera. If I'm not wrong. Yeah.

00:44:57:04 - 00:45:32:29
John Simmerman
Yeah I out on Coursera and you can you can you can get you know tap into just now. It's got to be you know a plethora of of people have gone through the program a great way to do it. And again I have to give another plug. You know, for the actual, Substack folks head on over seriously, urban Cycling institute.substack.com and, you can have this show up in your inbox, just, you know, that every couple days or so or weeks or whatever, sometimes they come out, yeah, we get the September 5th.

00:45:32:29 - 00:45:37:03
John Simmerman
September 3rd. Yeah. 2826. Yeah, you guys are.

00:45:37:08 - 00:45:48:12
Michela Grasso
And I think it's great this after because a lot of articles are actually free. So a lot of articles are pretty accessible, of course, because the most important thing of your site is to keep knowledge accessible.

00:45:48:14 - 00:46:07:22
John Simmerman
Excellent. I appreciate you saying that. But, folks, if you can't afford to, become a subscriber, please do that because, you know, it's it's hard being a researcher and a journalist and somebody who's trying to write about these things. So whatever they can do, we get it. Thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:46:07:22 - 00:46:09:13
John Simmerman
This has been so much fun.

00:46:09:16 - 00:46:21:24
Michela Grasso
Thank you so much. And really, I really appreciated it. It was great. And I hope, yeah, I hope it was a useful conversation, maybe for people who are listening and need some inspiration on urban planning and topics of active mobility.

00:46:21:27 - 00:46:26:21
John Simmerman
I'm sure they will. Yeah. Thank you so much. Okay. Cheers.

00:46:26:21 - 00:46:27:11
Michela Grasso
Thank you.

00:46:27:13 - 00:46:42:14
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with me. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribed to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

00:46:42:20 - 00:47:04:08
John Simmerman
And again, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Hey, it's super easy to do. You can do it right here on YouTube by hitting that join button right down below. Or navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the page, and there's several different options, including the community Patreon supporters.

00:47:04:10 - 00:47:33:25
John Simmerman
Patrons do get curly and ad free access to all this video content, and you can also make a donation to the nonprofit. Again, thank you so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers. And again, just want to send a huge thank you to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel financially via YouTube memberships YouTube super thanks as well as making contributions to the nonprofit and joining my Patreon.

00:47:34:02 - 00:47:38:14
John Simmerman
Every little bit adds up and is very much appreciated. Thank you all so much.