Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:05 - 00:00:13:06
Chuck Marohn
Steve Mouzon one of our mutual friends. Yeah. A guy here who I met through seeing you, got in a squabble with some people about just architectural style.

00:00:13:07 - 00:00:13:22
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:00:13:24 - 00:00:42:25
Chuck Marohn
And I'll say the squabble came down to this. we should build housing no matter how obnoxious, how, ugly, how like inhuman it is. Because it's inhuman to not have enough housing. Yeah, I think I get that point, right? Right. Like, I get that point, like, if you don't have if you're homeless, if you don't have housing, if you can't afford the housing you're in, maybe architectural style is not the thing you're worried about, right?

00:00:42:25 - 00:01:05:29
Chuck Marohn
Right. Yeah. Steve's argument, and this is an argument that I'm probably more sympathetic to, is that it's not hard to build stuff that is actually respectful of a place of people. it provides people with dignity. It it is not. It is actually easier to build that. And build it at scale than it is to build hideous stuff.

00:01:06:02 - 00:01:31:08
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. That like finance as well, but really doesn't respect humans. Yeah. And so those two groups were kind of talking past each other. Yeah. And I think not recognizing the other's valid motivation. The one motivation was we have people who are homeless. Let's get housing built. Yeah. And like. Yes. Agreed. Steve's was we can do that and do it with dignity for people.

00:01:31:09 - 00:01:47:01
Chuck Marohn
Right. And it's actually easier to do it and do it that way than it is to do it with these monstrosities that are really ultimately financial products. Yeah, more than they are housing. Yeah. So very cool.

00:01:47:03 - 00:01:56:18
John Simmerman
This this facility that we see down here, in front of us is, the roller rink in the winter time. I understand this is an ice ice rink.

00:01:56:21 - 00:02:15:08
Chuck Marohn
I wonder if it was the last winter we didn't even get. We didn't even get an ice skating rink at my house this last winter. there you go. You. You haven't been to my new house, but a block and a half from my house. They build a really nice ice skating rink. Yeah. And, you know, we go all the time.

00:02:15:08 - 00:02:31:12
Chuck Marohn
We go Christmas Eve, we go New Year's Eve. Yeah, we have a big. We have a party in January where we bring the whole family over and we all go ice skating. Yeah, none of that happened this year. So I wonder if they did cause this when we. I have to confess, when we walked around here, I'm like, ooh, they have an ice skating rink.

00:02:31:12 - 00:02:37:26
Chuck Marohn
And then like, no, they don't in May, you idiot. but I can see where they would like it to be really nice.

00:02:37:28 - 00:02:47:17
John Simmerman
I'm sure if it is a warmish winter, there's probably an awful lot of of energy trying to keep it ice and make it happen.

00:02:47:18 - 00:03:08:28
Chuck Marohn
You'd have to spend a lot to do that here. But it would be. I mean, it would be really great. Yeah. this would be a fun, They've segmented it up enough where it's it's it can be a gathering space for a lot of people. And it'd be a gathering space like today for. Not that many. And so I think it can work both ways.

00:03:09:00 - 00:03:27:12
John Simmerman
I think in the evening, too, I've noticed in the last few evenings that this has been very vibrant. There's been lots of people here. of course we did have the the Strong Towns National Gathering spillover. Seeing you opening party here last night. so the title of your book.

00:03:27:15 - 00:03:43:20
Chuck Marohn
Escaping the Housing Trap. Yeah. The strong Towns. I can't remember the subtitle. Subtitle? It's not I know it's not solution because the publisher wanted solution and we said no. Yeah, I think it's the strong Dan's approach to the housing crisis.

00:03:43:20 - 00:03:47:27
John Simmerman
And I and I know that you have had that discussion. I think it's even in the book.

00:03:47:28 - 00:03:50:07
Chuck Marohn
No, no, it's the book I ripped the publisher in the book.

00:03:50:12 - 00:03:51:08
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:03:51:10 - 00:04:14:04
John Simmerman
The solution is like, we're not about, prescribing solutions. Yeah. So we were before we hit the record button. We were talking about, you know, some of the traditional development patterns and the the architecture that we're looking at. This is also some of the architecture that over the years and you talk about this in the book became illegal.

00:04:14:06 - 00:04:39:09
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. Well, all of us down here would have been illegal at some point. And, you know, I feel like this is the easiest to understand when it comes to schools. we went out in the 1950s and the 1960s, and we looked at where the most successful schools were. Right. And they were where all the rich people had moved to and built these massive school campuses out in the suburbs.

00:04:39:09 - 00:05:03:09
Chuck Marohn
Right. And then we said, you know, what makes a successful school? It's not the families, it's not the people, it's not the community. It's not all the, you know, did you read your kid when they were three? Do you know what makes a great school? Having enough parking, having enough athletic fields. Having big enough classrooms. Having. And so we we we took it as engineers, as architects, as planners.

00:05:03:17 - 00:05:24:24
Chuck Marohn
And we reduced success down to a geometric proportions. Right. Then we went back into the city and we said, if you're going to build a school in the city, right, here's the proper geometric proportions to have success. Right. And so if you're going to have a urban school, you need to tear down every building around it to create this geometric proportion.

00:05:24:24 - 00:05:52:21
Chuck Marohn
Right. Okay. We did the same thing here with these places. Yeah. It's like if you're going to have a barber shop. Yeah. Here's what a barber shop needs in terms of setback, in terms of floor area ratio, in terms of parking, in terms of stormwater runoff. This is the optimum right. And the optimum was made artificially really from what like success was in those early kind of suburbanization days.

00:05:52:27 - 00:06:14:26
Chuck Marohn
And so they would have gone in and you would have said every single building here is illegal, is non-conforming. if you want to change uses, if you want to add on, if you want to do anything to the building, you will need to go through an extensive process to do that. Yeah, yeah. And so what happened was, the land values here dropped for, for for many reasons.

00:06:14:26 - 00:06:34:01
Chuck Marohn
That was one of them. The fact that what was on it became illegal. The other one was, you know, we just made a lot of land available. Land in the center cities used to be really, really valuable because that was the most accessible land. Right? Yeah. When you take the automobile and you spread cities out and make everything accessible.

00:06:34:04 - 00:06:54:29
Chuck Marohn
The actual value of the land drops. Yeah. And so these great buildings, which which are the culmination of many generations of iterating. So this is definitely not the first building that was built in this spot. It was probably the third or maybe the fourth building. Right. You would have had a little shack. You would have had a, a slightly bigger like wood building.

00:06:54:29 - 00:07:15:20
Chuck Marohn
And then you would have gotten something that would have been concrete. But you worked up to these buildings, right? Like, this would have been a more mature version of what was here. By the time you you get to that, now, there may be legal. They may say you can't renovate them, and you've got this substantial thing on a lot that is not worth this much.

00:07:15:20 - 00:07:16:08
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:07:16:10 - 00:07:31:06
Chuck Marohn
A lot of them were just torn down. Yeah, and just torn down. Not to even make way for something else, but a lot of times they just torn down to avoid the taxes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this building, no one wants this building. You can't do anything with it. It's been made illegal. So we're just going to tear it down.

00:07:31:06 - 00:07:56:28
Chuck Marohn
And you would end up with, abandoned buildings next to empty parking lots. And all of it brought about by regulation and finance. All right. Thank God, in places like this. They didn't tear them down. Yeah. It's funny because the cities today that are, I think, best positioned and most successful, best positioned to be the most successful are the ones that urban renewal.

00:07:56:29 - 00:07:59:06
Chuck Marohn
They were too broke during urban renewal to do it.

00:07:59:09 - 00:08:01:08
John Simmerman
And I think that that is part of the narrative here.

00:08:01:08 - 00:08:16:15
Chuck Marohn
That's part of the narrative here, is that the, the world of kind of passed them by. And so by the time you get to the 1950s and 60s, they could at scale, like rip everything down, right? so now that we're rediscovering the value of these things. Yeah, they still have some of it.

00:08:16:15 - 00:08:40:17
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Chuck. So, welcome back to the Active Towns podcast on the Active Towns channel. We're in Cincinnati, Ohio. We just finished up these Strong Towns National Gathering and CNU has kicked off, and, we were just pausing, back there at Court Street and looking at the roller rink. Also serves as an ice skating rink in the winter time.

00:08:40:19 - 00:08:57:28
John Simmerman
We're going to be talking a little bit about your book, but we also want to just kind of, you know, maybe reflect on the built environment that we see, because I think that a lot of the strong towns messages and a lot of the things that you talk about in the book, we're going to see as we walk through, this space here.

00:08:58:00 - 00:09:18:03
Chuck Marohn
Thanks, John. Yeah, it's nice to be. You and I have done a lot of things together over the years. It's always fun to hang out and to chat. I have been to Cincinnati a number of times. that means I've seen a tiny fraction of it, right? Yeah. What part of the. The blessing that my life is. Yes.

00:09:18:05 - 00:09:39:16
Chuck Marohn
So when I go to a city, people take me and show me things. Yeah, but oftentimes they want to show me their horrible road. Yeah. And their strip mall. That's failed. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, I know, like, we all have this. It's like someone brings you to their house. They have to show you the the the furnace in the basement and the, the, you know, the here's our.

00:09:39:16 - 00:09:40:22
John Simmerman
Wiring that's no longer.

00:09:40:28 - 00:10:07:04
Chuck Marohn
Exactly. Here's here's the old transformer. Yeah. but I don't often get to see, I mean, sometimes get to see this stuff. I don't often get to see the the little intricacies, things that I enjoy. Yeah. And sometimes I can strike out on my own, but usually they overscheduled me. Yeah. This is, it's interesting here because you have this space that is, wide and overly vacant.

00:10:07:05 - 00:10:26:20
Chuck Marohn
Like it? It feels a little empty. They've they've tried to make up for that, with the tree line median, which is very nice. I mean, it does add a lot. If you didn't have that, this would be really barren. It didn't feel uncomfortable to cross here, although you can tell it was it was not as pleasant the space as otherwise would.

00:10:26:22 - 00:10:48:29
Chuck Marohn
And you've got these corners with these gaps, two little parking lots. And I mean, ideally you would get something in those to square off those corners and really kind of make this place more prominent. But in the absence of that, I don't know what this mural is. It's funny to me. I don't know if it means something more than than comedy to the people of Cincinnati.

00:10:49:01 - 00:11:18:24
Chuck Marohn
but it's cute. that one is remarkable. Yeah. like, you know, you're you're. I'm sure someone, who has more artistic taste than me would say, you know, you're recreating some Roman thing in a cheesy way. Cincinnatus. There we go. Yeah, but I, I like it. I mean, if you're going to have a vacant spot like that, the idea that you you paint it up and you make it so that as you're walking down the street, especially with how nice this street is.

00:11:18:26 - 00:11:35:16
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. What you're really trying to do is get the people who are here to be willing to cross this gulf. Yeah. Like, right. This, this, this, you know, this gulf in your city to continue on that way. And that is, that's a beautiful, beautiful way to do it.

00:11:35:19 - 00:11:57:20
John Simmerman
And if I remember correctly. And I could be off on this, but Central Parkway, again, it's this is a monster. I mean, we're we're talking four lanes, you know, one parking lane and three travel lanes. when the cars are going fast in the morning at commute time, you're like, wow. Yeah, this is very uncomfortable, but I believe that this is where the canal was.

00:11:57:20 - 00:12:16:26
John Simmerman
I believe that this was where what they called the Rhine. Yeah. because this, this district that we're going into is Otter over the Rhine. And you see the branding on the on the, the banners here. Otter over the Rhine. And so I believe I could be wrong, but I believe that this is where the, the, the canal was.

00:12:17:03 - 00:12:21:04
John Simmerman
That was part of that. And so it's a little bit of that legacy, a little bit of the history.

00:12:21:07 - 00:12:35:17
Chuck Marohn
Shows you the Canal Cities. We it's hard to get our brains around it. Yeah, yeah. But the idea that you would bring in like a bunch of supplies by canal and that would be the easiest way. Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Very cool.

00:12:35:17 - 00:12:57:05
John Simmerman
And I guess the other part of the history of the city, and we'll see some of this as we walk is, very much agricultural and animal process. And so you'll see the Flying pig, marathon banners up. Yeah. And so pigs are very much a part of the city. And so you'll see all sorts of porcine, statues and, and legacy.

00:12:57:08 - 00:13:11:21
John Simmerman
and it was primarily a German settlement. So everything that we're walking through here, and I think a couple blocks over is, is a beautiful old building that literally says German National Bank. No kidding. Yeah. Pretty pretty fascinating,

00:13:11:27 - 00:13:39:00
Chuck Marohn
I was, that that is interesting. You know, this part of the world, was not that easy to grow things in. It was not as easy as some of the places further east and further south, but it was very accessible by water. Right. And so you did have a lot of the early development here be driven by the, the, the kind of what, what can you get to a riverway?

00:13:39:00 - 00:13:47:02
Chuck Marohn
Right. And then what can you get to a major city. Yes. And that drove the economics of a lot of this. Yeah. Do you know the story of Cincinnatus?

00:13:47:04 - 00:13:49:06
John Simmerman
I don't know the entire story now.

00:13:49:08 - 00:14:11:19
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. I don't know the entire story, but I know that Cincinnatus was a Roman leader who in Rome, they were worried about having an absolute ruler, which is crazy, because that's what they ultimately ended up with, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. They were worried about this. Yeah, yeah. And so they would have, consuls who would rule on opposite days, two people who essentially shared power.

00:14:11:20 - 00:14:18:16
Chuck Marohn
Right. but in times of crisis, they would give kind of absolute power to someone. Yeah. The barbarians are at the gate.

00:14:18:23 - 00:14:19:06
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:14:19:08 - 00:14:22:08
Chuck Marohn
We're going to give power to you to solve this. Oh, yeah.

00:14:22:10 - 00:14:24:03
John Simmerman
So, yes.

00:14:24:06 - 00:14:26:24
Chuck Marohn
So Cincinnatus was one of these rulers.

00:14:26:27 - 00:14:27:14
John Simmerman
That in a second.

00:14:27:20 - 00:14:55:17
Chuck Marohn
That they gave absolute power to. And the reason he is celebrated and the reason he is celebrated here in the United States is because he was the model that our founding fathers wanted to everybody to emulate. Right. Because when the crisis was over, he gave up power and went back to his farm. There you go. And so George Washington actually was modeling the behavior of Cincinnatus when he finished two terms as president.

00:14:55:24 - 00:15:18:21
Chuck Marohn
He could have run again. He is widely believed he would have been elected. And they wanted to make him king. Right? They wanted to make him like ruler for life. And he said, no, we are of the people. And Cincinnatus was the person that he tried to elevate, and they tried to elevate as the role model for how our politicians should act, give up power.

00:15:18:23 - 00:15:39:15
Chuck Marohn
And so this city itself, Cincinnati, is kind of named in that, in that legacy, right? Yeah. And it was an early enough American city where you were still, grasping at that kind of founding vision. Right? I think if we if we founded a brand new city today, we would damage Kardashian or something.

00:15:39:15 - 00:15:41:28
John Simmerman
We would not. It wouldn't be.

00:15:42:01 - 00:15:48:23
Chuck Marohn
Cincinnatus. I have a soft spot for that vision because it's a it's a beautiful one.

00:15:48:23 - 00:16:04:23
John Simmerman
It is a beautiful vision. So, we saw, an electric bike zoomed past us here and rocking his music, which was kind of cool. we're also poised right here in front of a really cool bike shop that has, some great cargo bikes.

00:16:04:23 - 00:16:06:14
Chuck Marohn
And I did notice that.

00:16:06:17 - 00:16:16:15
John Simmerman
this little gray bike right here is the turn GSD. That's my grocery bike. That's what I use. Yeah, that's what I use. Yeah. We saw nope. The one, the gray one I like.

00:16:16:20 - 00:16:17:12
Chuck Marohn
What is this.

00:16:17:12 - 00:16:19:01
John Simmerman
That's an urban arrow.

00:16:19:04 - 00:16:22:27
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. But like you just put a kid in there or something. Okay.

00:16:23:00 - 00:16:25:26
John Simmerman
So those get configured. You can do them for cargo.

00:16:25:28 - 00:16:27:02
Chuck Marohn
Take to go get groceries.

00:16:27:02 - 00:16:28:07
John Simmerman
Yeah. So you don't put.

00:16:28:07 - 00:16:29:00
Chuck Marohn
A kid seat.

00:16:29:03 - 00:16:35:25
John Simmerman
I don't have a kid seat. I have, an adult seat in the back. And so Laura can jump on the back, and, we can do that.

00:16:35:29 - 00:16:40:22
Chuck Marohn
This is electric powered. So you get a little fist and you can take, electric assist.

00:16:40:22 - 00:16:59:06
John Simmerman
Yeah. Electric assist. So, there's no throttle. Electric assist. So it gives you a little boost getting up the steep hills, to my neighborhood. And. Yeah, it's been a car replacement for us. You know, we're we remain car light, and, are able to do a heck of a lot of stuff because a little bit of an electric assist.

00:16:59:06 - 00:17:42:00
John Simmerman
Yeah. And this is really, I think the the key is that if we can work on transforming our built environment, our cities, to becoming more bike friendly so that, you know, somebody doesn't have to ride on the sidewalk to feel safe. this starts becoming a legitimate car replacement. There's a couple of points in your book where you literally talk about how important it is for us to, you know, create more housing within reasonable walking and biking distance and adjacent to transit so that we can cut our, you know, dependency on automobiles everywhere, all the time.

00:17:42:02 - 00:17:58:04
Chuck Marohn
It is, I think the way that I think about it is in terms of like liberating a family, liberating, a household, to be able to have more of their resources right, to spend on other things.

00:17:58:04 - 00:17:58:15
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:17:58:17 - 00:18:15:06
Chuck Marohn
So if you can live in a neighborhood and really, if we're going to there's a yin and yang here, because if, if we're going to have broadly affordable housing, right, we have to build a lot more a lot, a lot more. Yeah. We're never going to build a lot more. And like the big drop it in kind of style.

00:18:15:06 - 00:18:35:07
Chuck Marohn
Right. It will never keep up with what we need. Yeah. Building single family homes on the edge is choking our communities. Yeah. These things are not options. Yeah. So when you take the options that don't work off the table, the thing that we have to focus on is building a lot of small units in existing neighborhoods, right? When you when you recognize that, you recognize that that will change the dynamic of a neighborhood.

00:18:35:07 - 00:18:53:04
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. Right. Yeah. It it it will make the idea of everybody having two cars and driving everywhere really hard to do. Right. There won't. Oftentimes we hear when people want to build housing like this, where are they going to park. Right. And I think a lot of people who advocate for that will just dismiss that, like, oh, stop worrying about that.

00:18:53:04 - 00:19:09:04
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, and I agree, we're way too sensitive about where people are going to park. Yeah. But the reality is that that is going to be an issue. Yeah. Yeah. The way you get over that is you start to build corner stores and, you know, grocery stores closer and places where you can work that are closer to where you live.

00:19:09:04 - 00:19:35:06
Chuck Marohn
Exactly. When we say closer, if the only two options on the table are are walk or drive close for a walk is, you know, ten blocks, right? I walk six blocks to work. It's easy walk a few more would still be easy, but you're starting to get beyond the point where it's super easy, right? if you drive, driving five miles is in, not in.

00:19:35:12 - 00:19:37:22
John Simmerman
Not where you live.

00:19:37:24 - 00:19:42:03
Chuck Marohn
Not in Austin, but in Brainerd is, like, super easy. Yeah, yeah. But,

00:19:42:06 - 00:20:07:08
John Simmerman
Well, I can tell you this, since you brought up Austin. Yes, I'm based in in South Austin. I can make my way up to the Miller neighborhood, which is where, we have, you know, the 20 year buildout of a new community. Yeah, we're going across the street here. so that that route, that ride for me to go up to the Miller neighborhood.

00:20:07:10 - 00:20:20:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. Which is where, Preston, our good friend Preston Tyree lives, and, that's about. Yeah, that's about seven and a half miles. and so you're the majority.

00:20:20:26 - 00:20:21:21
Chuck Marohn
Is that. Yeah.

00:20:21:28 - 00:20:55:16
John Simmerman
And so the majority of that, that ride for me when I make that trip to, to go up there because I love documenting that community. Yeah. and I'll tell you why in a second. The I have access to an entire network of safe and inviting, highly comfortable pathways to make my way there, including just beautiful pathways through parks that then connect to, the Red Line Trail Parkway that goes right along the the transit line.

00:20:55:18 - 00:21:13:10
John Simmerman
And it's just absolutely, you know, delightful to be able to do that. Yeah. The other day, I took a, the transit or the, the traffic advisor for the city of Harlem in the Netherlands was in town visiting, and I took him on a tour of that, not sheepishly, not sheepishly. And, and he and.

00:21:13:11 - 00:21:14:03
Chuck Marohn
We bike.

00:21:14:03 - 00:21:15:00
John Simmerman
Infrastructure.

00:21:15:03 - 00:21:39:10
John Simmerman
We created five videos from that because I interviewed him the whole time. Yeah, we created five videos and he critiqued everything as we were going. And at the end he's just like, yeah, you guys are doing some really good stuff here. Keep it up. And to your point, it gives mobility options. It gives in fact let's let's stop here for just a second.

00:21:39:12 - 00:22:05:03
John Simmerman
I'm staying right here. Oh so that's my Airbnb right up there. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. The taste of Belgium, building there. And so if somebody is a young professional, like a young family is living in this neighborhood, and they're able to find a job in this neighborhood, too, they can literally exist car free, easily. I can totally see how that can happen in this area.

00:22:05:03 - 00:22:30:16
Chuck Marohn
Well, if you have a bike and your neighborhood is bikeable, even moderately bikeable, right? You you change that. That gap between though the one mile walk right and the five mile drive. Yeah. You you close that completely because a bike you can go two miles, three miles for about five miles very easily. And you don't need you need some infrastructure.

00:22:30:18 - 00:22:47:09
Chuck Marohn
And cities certainly need to look at the well, I would just think of as like the pinch points, the danger points. Right. But most streets are very if you if you're driving, especially if you've got traffic going this speed which is really. Yeah. Friendly for cycling. You can bike right in the street and it's not a big deal.

00:22:47:12 - 00:23:10:14
John Simmerman
And I was going to say that is exactly what, has happened here. And you'll notice, we've got a lot of, traffic calming elements to these streets with, I would guess that these, cafe, dining areas were probably the result. And they're very formalized. You'll notice that in the city, they all look exactly the same.

00:23:10:16 - 00:23:33:08
John Simmerman
And so it looks like it was probably a, Covid pandemic, but it's done a wonderful job of really creating a calm street environment. And, I haven't been out riding yet, but I know that it's going to be fine because, you know, I spent the last 3 or 4 days here and and there's just no traffic, right?

00:23:33:11 - 00:23:34:00
John Simmerman
I mean.

00:23:34:02 - 00:23:41:16
Chuck Marohn
You know, the traffic is very low, but that's not I mean, and and in most cities, traffic is very low in the city center.

00:23:41:16 - 00:23:46:27
John Simmerman
Yeah, we were in Oklahoma City and we're like there's massively wide streets and there's no traffic. Yeah.

00:23:47:00 - 00:24:07:16
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. But I mean, you you look at this and I think part of what calms things is that unlike in Oklahoma City, you actually have people. Yeah. Right. Like you're driving down here and everyone who drives is aware that there's lots of humans on the side. Yeah. And so when you're aware that there's humans on the side, this is that stupid debate I've been having with people on Twitter.

00:24:07:18 - 00:24:27:12
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. There's some people who are like, every driver is a sociopath ready to kill you. Like they're all like, they don't care about you. And I'm like, if there are humans walking on a sidewalk that calms traffic even on a horrible street, right, because people do not want to hit people. And if there's a lot of people like this and then a lot of complexity, right?

00:24:27:15 - 00:24:50:15
Chuck Marohn
I mean, look at you've got plants, you've got trees, you've got like barriers between you've got parked cars. The driver starts to think in their mind like suddenly there's a lot of stuff going on here. Yeah, I can't predict everything in this environment. And so I'm going to slow down. Right. You add a thing like a speed humps like this.

00:24:50:17 - 00:24:57:20
Chuck Marohn
And I mean, I don't. Do they need that here. Maybe, maybe this was the spot where things were opening up and they were seeing it.

00:24:57:22 - 00:25:17:17
John Simmerman
Well, I think I think what's really interesting is I'm glad you mentioned the speed hump. I've watched it perform in the early morning, when I've gone out for coffee. And, what's really nice about this is it's indicative of the fact that they know that these mid-block block crossings are. So they're encouraging the mid mid-block.

00:25:17:20 - 00:25:24:09
Chuck Marohn
Maybe it's more of a mid-block crossing than an actual speed hump. Yeah. Because I would say I don't know is you need I mean to me.

00:25:24:11 - 00:25:25:01
John Simmerman

00:25:25:04 - 00:25:47:12
Chuck Marohn
I, it doesn't feel like you need a speed hump here, but the middle rock crossing. You certainly do. Yeah. Right. And we, we were we were talking about electric assist bikes. Yeah. And I got to tell you, I've tried a couple like they're fantastic. They're amazing. I don't have one. I think I would feel guilty getting one because everything is so close.

00:25:47:14 - 00:26:06:05
Chuck Marohn
Like I like, I like if my grocery store is a mile away. Yeah, I bike to the grocery store. The only reason I could maybe justify electric busses is certainly not for the because I live in a very flat city as well. It's, it's not the biking. It would be the hauling, right? Yes, I could see that.

00:26:06:05 - 00:26:11:24
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. But I mean, yes, we're getting down to just me and my wife and I at home. No, you know, at home.

00:26:11:27 - 00:26:16:04
John Simmerman
You two could have, like, a little date night ride, get on the back or get in the front.

00:26:16:04 - 00:26:19:27
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. That's true. She would make me sit in back.

00:26:19:29 - 00:26:20:10
John Simmerman
let's.

00:26:20:10 - 00:26:30:15
John Simmerman
Let's, go this way a little bit. I want to show you some more stuff.

00:26:30:18 - 00:26:50:01
John Simmerman
I'm pausing here. Check. Just to point out this really cool little alley. So there's there's a whole network of alleys here. Some of them have been activated, some of them not. But again, just like tapping into some, you know, creative ways that, you know, we kind of forgot, we forgot, you know, really well.

00:26:50:08 - 00:27:18:10
Chuck Marohn
So so you're right. Okay I like it right. Like it has some. It would be really nice if the, electric lines ran down there. Yeah. If you had, you know, I mean, an alley is for the things that you don't want, right? And we've put a lot of the things that we don't want out here to compete with everything else.

00:27:18:14 - 00:27:20:12
John Simmerman
Yeah. really good point.

00:27:20:12 - 00:27:45:19
Chuck Marohn
But yeah, you know, I think as opposed to, like, not maintaining it or not, you know, you can see this is, I'm guessing that is like original block. Yeah. What I like this is just because I'm like, I don't know what I love this, I love this ornamentation. I'm sure that, like, Edward River would be like, oh, that's just cheesy.

00:27:45:19 - 00:27:54:10
Chuck Marohn
Maybe not, but I like how they painted it. And I'm just like, I like how they care for this facade. But yeah, man, no, that's probably newer.

00:27:54:16 - 00:27:56:04
John Simmerman
Yeah. You do have a vehicle.

00:27:56:04 - 00:27:57:18
John Simmerman
Right there for you.

00:27:57:20 - 00:28:01:00
John Simmerman
Yeah. The second year I would have here.

00:28:01:00 - 00:28:06:24
Chuck Marohn
I'm. I'm checking out the sidewalks. Yeah, I'm checking out the blocks. Oh did I scare them off?

00:28:06:27 - 00:28:09:13
John Simmerman
I was like, oh right. That's where it wasn't supposed to go.

00:28:09:15 - 00:28:16:17
Chuck Marohn
These Yeah. It it it looks older. I don't think it is. Yeah.

00:28:16:19 - 00:28:20:28
Chuck Marohn
I think that they've gone in and replaced it and put it back in.

00:28:21:00 - 00:28:24:10
John Simmerman
It's old ish, but certainly not original.

00:28:24:12 - 00:28:46:09
Chuck Marohn
Very cool. Yeah. This is awesome. I mean, these these buildings here are just fantastic. It's funny because when you come, when you come east and you've got to see this two from Austin or from Boulder, right? Yeah. You come out east and the stuff that they're like, this is just our throwaway junk, like, we don't. This neighborhood's okay, but it's not great.

00:28:46:12 - 00:28:51:17
Chuck Marohn
People would drive two hours to be if you had like, two blocks of this in Minnesota.

00:28:51:18 - 00:28:53:05
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:53:12 - 00:29:13:17
Chuck Marohn
People would drive for hours to just, like, hang out in this space. Yeah. because we have such a dearth of it, you know, it wasn't it wasn't mature enough after World War two. So we we tore down what was there, right? Yeah. Yeah. this was mature enough that they kept it or a lot of it.

00:29:13:19 - 00:29:24:01
John Simmerman
So the reason the reason why I wanted to come, over to this block is. So now we start to see a repetition of some, one way couplets. And so this is another one way street.

00:29:24:01 - 00:29:41:24
Chuck Marohn
Really, John, look at all the people, though. I, I'm like, we have not walked a block yet where we haven't run into a lot of people and it's like, what, three in the afternoon? Yeah. I mean, you're not talking about like you're just talking about people going about life. It's pretty cool. Yeah. This is a one way couple of day.

00:29:41:27 - 00:29:56:17
John Simmerman
Well so yeah. So this is a one way here. We'll run. And so this is a two lane, one way I you know, I don't it's it's still relatively calm, but it would be even. It would be even, it would be even better if it were to someone.

00:29:56:17 - 00:30:17:25
Chuck Marohn
Someone told me someone told me recently. Have you been to Mexico City ever? I haven't been there. I haven't either. And someone told me that it's the best case argument for couplets. They said that they do them awesome. They're and they're great and they help with traffic, but they also keep things like calm and slow and like they do a really good job with it.

00:30:17:28 - 00:30:25:06
Chuck Marohn
I most American cities, particularly as you get East. Yeah these these couplets are so unnecessary and I just don't understand it.

00:30:25:06 - 00:30:36:14
John Simmerman
Yeah. I mean really what we end up seeing here is, is just the fact that it's, it's a higher speed, comfortable environment. If you have that friction of going, you know, one in each direction.

00:30:36:17 - 00:31:03:15
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. Well what you've done is you've just given people more margin of error while they drive. Yeah. And engineers think when you give people more margin of error traffic flow improves. Yeah I like okay. But traffic flow improves, speeds go up and the collisions you have are more dangerous. More kinetic energy. Yeah. Right. Yeah. and it's just not, plus you're solving a problem that doesn't exist, right?

00:31:03:21 - 00:31:13:10
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, we got to have traffic flow. There's no frickin traffic. There's no traffic. Like, what are we. What are we solving?

00:31:13:13 - 00:31:37:24
John Simmerman
So getting back to the book, then we start thinking about what we're walking through in terms of, of of housing a big portion of what you're saying in the book is that we need to be thickening up our housing stock, and we need to be doing this at a scale that you know, you mentioned it earlier, you can't just rely on big projects.

00:31:37:26 - 00:31:56:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. And a big part of that is, is, is the fact that it would never it's never going to be able to scale up. So we really have to get the policies in place so that we can, you know, release the swarm of of homebuilding.

00:31:56:03 - 00:32:23:24
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. That's Daniel's term, which I think is a great one. Yeah. You there's a recognition and we spend a lot of time in the book talking about the, the finance of housing. And I think, I hope people who read that come away with a recognition that the financial markets dominate what is being built. Right? What is being built is not what are the New urbanist like insights.

00:32:23:27 - 00:32:57:27
Chuck Marohn
And it's like this frustration that they have is every time we build New Urbanist stuff, it sells like immediately, right? People pay a premium, they want to live there. Why don't we build more of this? Yeah. And the reason is because we're not building. Because things that people want, we're building things that people can finance. We're building things that banks are able to write mortgages for, sell off on secondary markets, have them bundled with other similar products, have those, bet on hypothecated, you know, traded swapped options.

00:32:57:29 - 00:33:27:00
Chuck Marohn
These are financial products. And if you recognize that, you'll recognize that none of the market mechanisms that bring those thing to bear will destroy themselves, right? No one's going to lend out so much money that we build so many five over ones that five over ones prices crash, right? Because as soon as the market starts to soften, the banks pull back and like we're not lending on that now to the market comes back.

00:33:27:00 - 00:33:47:26
Chuck Marohn
Right, right. So by by got by saying we have these two products, we can build single family homes or duplexes on the one hand in like new greenfield developments or big infill massive buildings, those are it. That's like all we had on the table. What you are saying is that you will always be at the whim of the financial markets, right?

00:33:47:29 - 00:33:48:29
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:33:49:01 - 00:34:16:22
Chuck Marohn
We have to build a different style of unit finance in a different way, and that means filling in those gaps. We just walk by, right? Yeah, it means saying like those gaps right now that our people are parking on or not doing anything with that should be housing, right? When we get out of the neighborhoods where the is a little less intense, there's all kinds of gaps, all kinds of space for people to build stuff, and we struggle to get it permitted.

00:34:16:24 - 00:34:17:18
Chuck Marohn
We struggle.

00:34:17:18 - 00:34:18:22
John Simmerman
To.

00:34:18:25 - 00:34:45:14
Chuck Marohn
get it. developers to build it, and we struggle to get it financed. And then all three of those things local governments, cities, local philanthropy can play a huge role in getting those entry level units built. Right. And if we can, that is something we can flood the market with. Yeah. And if we flood the market with cheap, affordable units, everything above that price point is going to be anchored at a lower price point.

00:34:45:14 - 00:35:06:05
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, I, I use the analogy of shoes. If the only shoes that we could buy today were like Gucci high end Gucci sandals and Air Jordans, and if you wanted shoes but you couldn't afford that, you had to wait till someone like phased out of their shoes and you could buy an old ratty pair of shoes some day, right?

00:35:06:06 - 00:35:30:00
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, we would be stuck in this market where those shoes were overly, overly, you know, overly valued, like overly priced. But if we were able to, you know, make a penny loafer, right? You change the market completely because everybody can get into a shoe, and now you're not working from a place of scarcity, right? You're working from a place of abundance.

00:35:30:00 - 00:35:33:00
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. And then prices will become locally responsive.

00:35:33:00 - 00:35:33:15
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:35:33:18 - 00:35:50:13
Chuck Marohn
That's what what we have today is prices that are responsive to financial macro markets. Right. Not to local supply and demand. Wow. Okay. This is very nice. Dude I like this.

00:35:50:15 - 00:35:54:09
John Simmerman
So this is my little coffee shop here on the corner over by the swimming pool.

00:35:54:10 - 00:35:55:07
Chuck Marohn
This is really.

00:35:55:07 - 00:35:56:16
John Simmerman
May not even notice the swimming.

00:35:56:16 - 00:36:03:07
Chuck Marohn
Pool. I saw. It was returned. Yeah yeah I mean look at that. Yeah. So.

00:36:03:09 - 00:36:38:00
John Simmerman
So what we start to see is, you know, we start to see a fair amount of, of pride, you know, coming back. Yeah. To the community and to what we have, you know, in place here. And yeah, I think it's just, I think, I think one of the things that I loved about your book is, is like, let's, let's try to break down these barriers that are preventing homeowners and incremental developers from just being able to do what you said back there, which is let's fill in some of these gaps.

00:36:38:03 - 00:36:46:26
John Simmerman
Let's let's, you know, paint, some paint. Let's, you know, there's no reason why this should have been a through street. So let's get rid of this. This is through street and turn it into.

00:36:46:27 - 00:37:16:22
Chuck Marohn
Or recognize that it has higher value as something else. Right. Yeah. Like we have an abundance of through streets and a lack of places. Yeah. And we can actually turn one of these into a place. And the thing I like about this is it's a place that has some meaning built into it. I mean, I've been here all of 60s, and I can see how we're telling local stories of local people in a way that I'm, I'm guessing is very meaningful to people who are here.

00:37:16:24 - 00:37:19:13
Chuck Marohn
And that's what building a place is about. Yeah.

00:37:19:15 - 00:37:42:19
John Simmerman
Yeah. Now we we we heard a very, very loud motorcycle going by, and we haven't been completely assaulted by the noise associated with motor vehicles. But every once in a while, when you do hear a, you know, a slow moving noisemaker like that, it reminds you that, oh, yeah, cities aren't inherently noisy and, you know, and noise polluting.

00:37:42:19 - 00:37:45:27
John Simmerman
It's it's the motor vehicles that make it so.

00:37:45:29 - 00:38:09:22
Chuck Marohn
that was one of the things in Covid, wasn't it? Yeah. I mean, it really. I live in a small town and it is quiet. Yeah. When we moved into the city seven, eight years ago, that was one of the biggest concerns my wife had. Yeah. Was we're going to move from this quiet place on a five acre lot out in the country into the middle of town.

00:38:09:25 - 00:38:17:21
Chuck Marohn
it's quieter in town. Yeah, yeah, because where we were, there was a highway. Yeah, like a quarter mile away. And even though we couldn't see it and there was a.

00:38:17:21 - 00:38:18:19
John Simmerman
Lot of miles.

00:38:18:21 - 00:38:20:02
Chuck Marohn
Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00:38:20:04 - 00:38:22:14
John Simmerman
Yeah. So, so the friction noise, I mean.

00:38:22:14 - 00:38:26:19
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, yeah, that was loud. And in town it's really quiet in our neighborhood.

00:38:26:23 - 00:38:50:03
John Simmerman
I have to laugh because the. I don't know if you remember me commenting on your, your YouTube video when you ran into your mom, out there, I was like, I was literally thinking during that that video, there's just nobody around. So you're you're producing these these short walk around, you know, I walk to work. Yeah. You walk to work and you talk.

00:38:50:03 - 00:38:54:23
John Simmerman
And I love it there. Yeah. It's brilliant. And there's there's never anybody around.

00:38:54:26 - 00:39:13:22
Chuck Marohn
It's a small town and nobody walks. But I ran into my mom coming out of church, getting into her car to go back to the farm. Yeah. So, yeah, she's far out. Yeah. Yeah. No, she's three miles away. Yeah. But right when Covid happened, all my friends started to tell me, like, I can't believe how quiet it is here, right.

00:39:13:24 - 00:39:40:24
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. And then you heard, like, people started to talk about it online. Right? Is like, it's astounding how quiet it is. And I think even I was surprised. Yeah. The background noise that is automobiles, right. And how that affects you. Right. I got a pair of noise canceling headphones. I use them on airplanes because I fly a lot.

00:39:40:26 - 00:40:07:02
Chuck Marohn
Right. And I got these and I, I did not get them for airplane. I got them to get nice headphones right. And I put them on the plane. I will not fly without them now. I mean, they completely change the experience of flying. Yes. You don't. I never realized how assaulted I was with noise on a plane until I had the noise canceling headphones, and I do think that cities have a little bit of that same thing, right?

00:40:07:03 - 00:40:27:17
Chuck Marohn
When you're near the traffic and the traffic becomes like a background hum. It's just like a constant agitation. Right? And I see it when, like I go to the big city with my dad, right? Like I take my dad who lives on a farm right to the big city. He would say. And he is it. There's so much for him.

00:40:27:17 - 00:40:35:20
Chuck Marohn
It's like overwhelming, right? A lot of it is just that background hum. Yeah, it's that background. There's the there isn't the piece.

00:40:35:20 - 00:40:36:23
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Oh.

00:40:36:25 - 00:40:59:15
John Simmerman
And it was interesting too because we heard a like a utility tractor a gator went by. It was quite noisy. Then we had a silver sedan go by and it was quite quiet. Will we see that. We also have a mid-block crossing here, a raised mid-block crossing feeding into this open space, this public open space. And so there is that traffic calming aspect.

00:40:59:15 - 00:41:36:00
John Simmerman
I didn't hear the silver car at all. We've got a birdie right behind you just chirping away. It's like this backdrop to this. Yeah I mean this is what we can do I mean yeah. And kids laughing. this is so, so when we, we talk about density being this scary thing, it's right. But then you when you spend time in a place where there's a richness of shops, housing above, you know, a park here, a pool, kids living here, it's like I think I think people are it's starting to change that.

00:41:36:00 - 00:41:58:06
John Simmerman
People are their perceptions of of what this is. Yeah. And I think there is a little bit of a longing to be able to hey, let's, let's get rid of these codes and these laws that make building this impossible. Well, and then while we're at it, let's not let's not, you know, feed it with, you know, auto centric infrastructure.

00:41:58:12 - 00:42:23:18
Chuck Marohn
I feel like there's two things there. The first one is the idea that people would like to live in a place like this. I think it's interesting to note that a lot of the people who make that decision don't live in places like this, and I can't tell you how many times I've been at a planning commission meeting or a council meeting where they'll say, well, people and and John, it's all over the map.

00:42:23:18 - 00:42:40:21
Chuck Marohn
It depends on where you go. You go to the East Lake, right where I used to live when I was engineer here, and my wife and I built a house in the middle of the woods for them, less than a five acre lot was urban, right? And they were like, who would who would want to live on a one acre lot?

00:42:40:24 - 00:43:02:07
Chuck Marohn
And for them, it's like we can't allow something that dense. That's crazy. And then I move into town where it's a 25ft lot, you know, and they're like, well, who would ever live on a 20ft lot like you? You can't do that like we can't. You should have two of these 25ft lots to build a house and I go to a larger city and they're like, who would want eight units an acre?

00:43:02:07 - 00:43:28:22
Chuck Marohn
Like, that's that's crazy that that density is crazy. And you, you realize when you hear all those conversations that it's someone who has anchored their own current status and position at a place and said, like anything beneath that is unacceptable. Sometimes they'll say unacceptable because we don't want the people who would be different than me. Sometimes it's unacceptable because they actually think, boy, that would not be very kind.

00:43:28:22 - 00:43:39:29
Chuck Marohn
That would not be very nice, right? Right. the reality is, is when you build stuff like this, there's a lot of people who would love to live here. And I think if we can't open our minds and our hearts to that, we're missing a lot.

00:43:40:05 - 00:44:13:12
John Simmerman
Yeah. And two things really come to mind is that a lot of the resistance that, you know, comes from trying to add more housing, thickening up the housing stock is back to what we had talked about earlier, which is a fear of induced car traffic. And and, you know, where are they going to park. And all these there, there this you know, assumption that everyone is going to come with an automobile, you know, almost like wearing a coat of car and, you know, the reality is.

00:44:13:12 - 00:44:16:03
Chuck Marohn
Is how well we have to manage that before we manage the people.

00:44:16:07 - 00:44:37:12
John Simmerman
Yeah. And it's one of the interesting things too, because you mentioned it. I think I may have mentioned it already. Is that in a couple of different places in the book, you really talk about, it's not just about building housing anywhere. We've got to get the housing in there right places too, and we got to do it at scale.

00:44:37:12 - 00:44:56:14
John Simmerman
We got to really, you know, open up the floodgates so that people can do this on their own because it has to be a bottom up revolution from that standpoint, and all the more that it is an environment where people don't have to, you know, every trip isn't a car trip. They can walk, they can bike, they can jump on a trolley.

00:44:56:14 - 00:44:58:04
John Simmerman
They can, you know, take transit. Right?

00:44:58:06 - 00:45:21:00
Chuck Marohn
We we have to allow neighborhoods to thicken up and evolve. Yeah. And we can do that in a way that as much, as much, much less friction than it does today. Yeah. If you look at like this street here and you say what what zoning code would produce this really it's very, very simple. I mean, for this street you would need a build to line.

00:45:21:04 - 00:45:40:18
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. you would need, probably like a height requirement, you know, you wouldn't go to the moon. You would have, I wrote an ordinance years ago, and the people freaked out because I said I would. I would make the height, like, one and a half times what the largest, like, adjacent building was. Yeah. So you had things.

00:45:40:20 - 00:45:58:10
Chuck Marohn
What you're trying to do is you're trying to make sure that the buildings respect the other buildings around them. Right. from a design standpoint, but really a one page code that said build to this line, have some symmetry in your building, have some opacity on your first floor, and, you know, don't be a tower over everybody else.

00:45:58:13 - 00:46:20:14
Chuck Marohn
And you come in tomorrow and want to build that building and we'll do it. Yeah. Now you've got some building code things. When you run buildings next to each other, you've got fire code issues and other things. But the reality is in most in most development in the US, that is not urban like this, right? You're talking about places where you've got 20ft between buildings.

00:46:20:18 - 00:46:54:14
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. From a fire code standpoint, five feet is plenty, right? you've got large setbacks. You don't need that. You've got large backyards. You can put housing in there and fill that in. So for for 95% of where we have invested public infrastructure, built roads, built sewer systems, built water system, you could five x the housing, right, with relatively no public investment and relatively no, difficulty or even stress.

00:46:54:15 - 00:46:58:24
Chuck Marohn
Right. I don't even think you would have parking problems in most of these places. Yeah.

00:46:58:26 - 00:47:05:04
John Simmerman
So I, I'm assuming that when all of this was built, built, there weren't even codes in place.

00:47:05:10 - 00:47:35:17
Chuck Marohn
No, but what there was was a cultural understanding of how you build things. And I think that is there's people who want to do away with all codes. And I actually think that they're discounting the role of culture. Right. and I don't mean culture like we all go to church. I mean, a culture like, I go for a good I mean, culture, like, you know, if you're going to build a building, here's how you build it.

00:47:35:17 - 00:47:57:09
Chuck Marohn
And if you don't build it this way, you will like what? Your store will be shunned. You will be shunned. Like it just is not going to work. Plus, I point out a lot in environments like this, if you come and build, I mean, pick your building and say you're the last building here to be built. Let's say you come in here and you're going to build.

00:47:57:14 - 00:48:18:25
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. And you're the most selfish, self-centered. I don't care about anyone but myself. I'm going to build this building is 1915 or whatever, and I'm going to go build my own building. How would you do it? To maximize your own value? Yeah, your own worth. Well, you would build in line with everybody else. You would build a building at roughly the height of everyone else.

00:48:18:27 - 00:48:27:08
Chuck Marohn
You would front the, you know, you would have the door fronting the street. Yeah. You would have, you know, nice windows so people can look in.

00:48:27:15 - 00:48:27:21
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:48:27:24 - 00:48:36:04
Chuck Marohn
You, you would do all these things that made your building kind of socially kind to every other building around it, right?

00:48:36:05 - 00:48:36:13
John Simmerman
Right.

00:48:36:19 - 00:48:51:23
Chuck Marohn
If you come in today and you say our building culture, we're going to build a new building here, what would you do? You would make it the most obnoxious thing you could. You'd have the biggest sign you could. You would try to make it stand out and be you'd have a bit. You tear down the building next to you to have a parking lot to have easier.

00:48:51:26 - 00:49:17:21
Chuck Marohn
You'd have a drive through. Yeah, yeah. We we have gone from an evolved wisdom on how to build that needed to be, in a sense, socially kind to everyone. Right? Because that's how everyone thrive, right? Right. To a style of building that is socially adversarial. Yeah. Because the way you get ahead is by stomping on someone else. Right.

00:49:17:23 - 00:49:25:11
John Simmerman
And we've lost that institutional knowledge of, you know, that's passed down from generation to generation. I wanted to pause here because I wanted to point.

00:49:25:11 - 00:49:27:01
Chuck Marohn
I thought you were going to make me ride a lime scooter.

00:49:27:03 - 00:49:45:12
John Simmerman
No, no, no, we're not going to do that. Although my, my ankle would probably or my foot would probably appreciate that. But I wanted to point out cultural institutions we just mentioned. We can see the steeple here. I was able to go up high. I was able to go up high on a building and look down on this whole developed area, and you see all sorts of steeples.

00:49:45:12 - 00:49:51:26
John Simmerman
And so you see, you know, those types of institutions that have continued to survive, you know, in this area.

00:49:51:26 - 00:50:00:10
Chuck Marohn
I went to church this morning. There you go. At the, there's a there's a Catholic cathedral. Yeah. Oh my gosh. What what a beautiful building. Yeah.

00:50:00:12 - 00:50:06:23
John Simmerman
And as I understand it, there's a, there's a, a wonderful Jewish, church right there too. near the synagogue.

00:50:06:23 - 00:50:09:08
John Simmerman
Yes. Synagogue. there you go. Yeah.

00:50:09:10 - 00:50:34:21
Chuck Marohn
They had, they had, a replica of the Pieta. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it what a marvelous building. I mean, yes. So these institutions, the great thing about a city this mature is that those things were so great by the time you got to it, right, that they didn't dare tear them down. Right? Sometimes they built highways right next to them and did a disservice to them.

00:50:34:21 - 00:50:39:20
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, but this city doesn't seem to have done that as much as other places I've seen.

00:50:39:22 - 00:50:43:15
John Simmerman
And so we're back here on another of the couplets, the one way.

00:50:43:15 - 00:50:49:19
Chuck Marohn
Couplet, when you said institutions, I thought you were meeting the barbershop, which is probably like a nice.

00:50:49:22 - 00:50:51:03
John Simmerman
Institution that has kind of.

00:50:51:03 - 00:50:57:05
John Simmerman
A nice institution, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So.

00:50:57:08 - 00:51:04:19
Chuck Marohn
yeah, this couplet is you can just see that they are less friendly and less,

00:51:04:22 - 00:51:07:04
John Simmerman
And I just, I don't yeah. I don't get it. I mean, this.

00:51:07:04 - 00:51:07:20
Chuck Marohn
This street.

00:51:07:20 - 00:51:08:20
John Simmerman
It just doesn't make sense.

00:51:08:20 - 00:51:34:15
Chuck Marohn
From a design standpoint. Yeah. The street is not much different than the really nice one two blocks over. Right. But the couplet does change more than subtly the dynamics of the street. Yes, yes. And you. This is fine to walk down. It's a very nice street. It's very comfortable, but it does not feel as nice and comfortable as the other one, even though I think in many ways this is better buildings, right?

00:51:34:17 - 00:51:37:25
Chuck Marohn
This is over the Rhine,

00:51:37:27 - 00:51:38:28
John Simmerman
Over the Rhine.

00:51:39:04 - 00:51:43:00
Chuck Marohn
So was they called the canal the Rhine like a German thing?

00:51:43:00 - 00:52:05:23
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. So the Germans that settled here back in the mid 1980 or 18 80s. Yeah. And, as I understand the population, the neighborhood really started to, kind of disintegrate and go downhill, after World War one because of the cultural, challenges with, the fact that it's a, it was a German settled area. Yeah.

00:52:05:28 - 00:52:33:23
Chuck Marohn
And so interesting because we did go through this cultural, you know, in a sense distrust of Germans. Yeah. And I don't know if you know this, but I am I am, a little over 50% Norwegian. My mom's side was 100% Norwegian. My dad's side was this combination of Prussian, which is German. Right, right. Yeah. And, and a little bit of Norwegian and and some other stuff.

00:52:33:23 - 00:52:57:12
Chuck Marohn
But yeah, that's that. Grandma. Grandpa were German for the most part. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah. You know, you get a little bit by the time World War two came around and my grandfather was went to the Pacific, that I don't think the family was, like, very German. And what they were, they tried to, you know, like they that was there was never anything passed on to me.

00:52:57:12 - 00:52:59:05
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. About German heritage.

00:52:59:05 - 00:53:00:13
John Simmerman
Right. Right, right. Yeah.

00:53:00:16 - 00:53:05:21
Chuck Marohn
on the other side, Norwegian. There was an attempt to pass on a modest amount to me.

00:53:05:26 - 00:53:16:16
John Simmerman
Well, and that's such a cultural the Norwegian cultural institution that is Minneapolis, it's it's like it's everywhere.

00:53:16:18 - 00:53:18:23
Chuck Marohn
Well, that was always my diversity joke.

00:53:18:24 - 00:53:19:21
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:53:19:24 - 00:53:30:20
Chuck Marohn
Here we have all kinds of diversity. Yeah. In my hometown we have, we have Swedes and Norwegians and Finns. Yes. all different forms of Scandinavian.

00:53:30:20 - 00:53:33:21
John Simmerman
Yes.

00:53:33:23 - 00:53:44:20
Chuck Marohn
it always got a good laugh. Yeah, yeah. And disarmed the crowd when I was getting the difficult. Yes, racial questions that I, I, I struggle to answer. Yeah.

00:53:44:22 - 00:53:47:14
John Simmerman
We are we're now on, 12th Street.

00:53:47:15 - 00:53:49:02
Chuck Marohn
This is another couplet, right?

00:53:49:04 - 00:53:51:12
John Simmerman
Yeah. This is. Yeah. This is the other. This is color that.

00:53:51:12 - 00:53:51:28
John Simmerman
We have for.

00:53:51:28 - 00:53:52:10
John Simmerman
For.

00:53:52:11 - 00:53:53:29
Chuck Marohn
Look at those murals. Oh my God.

00:53:53:29 - 00:54:14:01
John Simmerman
Yeah. So murals are all over the city. I've, I've probably taken taking photographs of, probably 30 or 40 murals so far. this is also the this is also the tram line. So you've seen the tram go through. So this is on the 12th Street. It's a big loop.

00:54:14:03 - 00:54:24:11
Chuck Marohn
This is this was a controversial project that they. Yeah, I remember all the debate around it. Yeah. And I might have said something not friendly.

00:54:24:13 - 00:54:34:03
John Simmerman
As I, as I understand it, it it doesn't really go necessarily anywhere. Super, super. Yeah. Meaningful.

00:54:34:08 - 00:54:34:17
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:54:34:20 - 00:54:56:27
John Simmerman
It is kind of seen as, a wonderful amenity for tourism and supporting tourism and supporting people coming into the city for the ball parks and all of that. Yeah, but I can tell you this. I wrote it with our good friend Bernie's. Okay. on Monday afternoon, and we were writing it with a full, full tram. Yeah.

00:54:56:29 - 00:55:02:23
John Simmerman
And, you know, 100% local people. Yeah. I mean, these are people catching a ride. Really? Okay.

00:55:02:25 - 00:55:25:24
Chuck Marohn
Okay, so they were doing functional things with it. Yeah. I've been to the one in Memphis, and that one makes me kind of sad, too. because, you know, Memphis has so many desperate needs. Yeah. And often they're given silver bullet projects that don't humbly observe where people struggle and start with that. And they try to like, let's get the moonshot thing we can do.

00:55:25:26 - 00:55:43:02
Chuck Marohn
And I feel like their trolley system is a little bit of that here, where it is a wish that someone else would come in and be part of our community, as opposed to like serving the people who are there. Right? This felt like it rhymed with that. But I'm happy to hear that locals are using it. Yeah.

00:55:43:05 - 00:56:03:09
John Simmerman
Well, I'm I think part partly too with we're seeing some of these older abandoned buildings being brought back to life and people are, are starting to live here once again. Yeah, there's a certain amount of vitality and vibrancy that's coming back to this area. Yeah. Let's go ahead and walk, down this way a couple blocks and get you back.

00:56:03:13 - 00:56:04:11
Chuck Marohn
To your place again.

00:56:04:11 - 00:56:05:13
John Simmerman
We're at my place again.

00:56:05:13 - 00:56:09:19
Chuck Marohn
So if you go to Taste of Belgium we had here last night. Oh, is it nice?

00:56:09:19 - 00:56:11:24
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, it was a nice little place.

00:56:11:27 - 00:56:12:16
Chuck Marohn
I think,

00:56:12:18 - 00:56:19:22
John Simmerman
I had, you know, I was, like, really pushing the edges of culinary stuff. I had French fries and Brussels sprouts.

00:56:19:23 - 00:56:22:03
John Simmerman
So, you know.

00:56:22:05 - 00:56:25:26
Chuck Marohn
You're a vibe in the way I do. Yeah, all different kinds of hot dogs.

00:56:25:26 - 00:56:35:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. And. And so folks who are watching this. Yes, we're, we're, we're just crossing because that's the way I ride my bike and that's the way that I cross is that I love.

00:56:35:10 - 00:56:36:17
Chuck Marohn
Jaywalkers are heroes.

00:56:36:17 - 00:56:42:02
John Simmerman
Yeah. Thank you very much. We just saw a really nice gazelle. I think that was a gazelle.

00:56:42:03 - 00:56:43:00
John Simmerman
Okay.

00:56:43:02 - 00:56:50:00
Chuck Marohn
A bike. Yeah. Okay. Good talking. Like you said, gazelle. And the first thing in my mind was just like.

00:56:50:03 - 00:56:50:28
John Simmerman
Where do we.

00:56:51:00 - 00:56:52:29
Chuck Marohn
Hear, like, what do we see that.

00:56:53:02 - 00:56:55:15
John Simmerman
You're like, where? Yeah. No. I'm sorry. Yeah.

00:56:55:16 - 00:56:55:28
Chuck Marohn
You're your bike.

00:56:55:28 - 00:56:57:02
John Simmerman
Culture. It's a, it's.

00:56:57:02 - 00:56:58:13
John Simmerman
A, it's a, it's a Dutch.

00:56:58:19 - 00:57:01:23
Chuck Marohn
I bought my bike like five.

00:57:01:25 - 00:57:02:06
John Simmerman
I bought my.

00:57:02:06 - 00:57:09:04
Chuck Marohn
Bike like ten years ago. Yeah. From a guy for 120 bucks. Yeah. He said it was a nice bike. Yeah. It works.

00:57:09:04 - 00:57:10:17
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:57:10:19 - 00:57:13:21
John Simmerman
Here's I think a closer to what? Some of the original. Yeah.

00:57:13:21 - 00:57:22:06
Chuck Marohn
This is probably right. Yeah. That other stuff looked like it was. Yeah. And then when we got up I'm like I don't think so. Yeah. But this is, that's actual stones.

00:57:22:06 - 00:57:23:21
John Simmerman
Actual. Yeah.

00:57:23:23 - 00:57:49:28
Chuck Marohn
so I was going to say something about creative class. Yeah. Because I, I do I, I like Richard Florida. I find his insights to be really great. I, I think he's a very smart guy. I do think though obviously he comes from, oh, how do we say this kindly? Like a train of thought that is separate from the human condition?

00:57:50:01 - 00:57:53:13
John Simmerman
That's that's a fancy way, city Lee way.

00:57:53:13 - 00:57:55:09
Chuck Marohn
Of saying elitist.

00:57:55:11 - 00:57:56:25
John Simmerman
Exactly.

00:57:56:28 - 00:58:14:04
Chuck Marohn
I like him a lot, and I do think that his heart is in the right place, and I see him, like, struggle with some of the implications of what I think he kind of joyously called the creative class. Like, look, I grew up with cities that were in decline. Nobody wanted to live in them. Now people are moving back.

00:58:14:04 - 00:58:28:11
Chuck Marohn
Let me describe how this is happening. And isn't it great? Great. Yeah. And then it became too much of a good thing. Right? I think that cities that try to get that that hipster vibe.

00:58:28:11 - 00:58:29:00
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:58:29:03 - 00:58:31:11
Chuck Marohn
Before they take care of their own people.

00:58:31:11 - 00:58:32:23
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:58:32:25 - 00:58:40:23
Chuck Marohn
wind up doing an injustice to their people. Right. And I think they wind up actually falling short of what they could otherwise be.

00:58:40:23 - 00:58:41:16
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:58:41:19 - 00:58:52:24
John Simmerman
Well, and talk a little bit about that, too, because you're, one of the, the key premises of strong towns and of the book that is, you know, constantly there. And you mentioned it earlier.

00:58:53:02 - 00:58:53:10
Chuck Marohn
Yeah.

00:58:53:10 - 00:59:04:14
John Simmerman
Was, you know, do that small little thing, that next thing where people hurting, what do they really need?

00:59:04:16 - 00:59:26:20
Chuck Marohn
So I was at a conference once and before I was about to go on, the person who was organizing it says, I really love your stuff, and it's great, but these people need to know they need us. They need at least one slide in there that says, when you go home, you do this. And I think she was hoping that was say like, go home and plant five trees or go home and put in this crosswalk.

00:59:26:21 - 00:59:30:05
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, but what I did, what I came up with. Yeah.

00:59:30:08 - 00:59:33:03
John Simmerman
Hi. Sorry.

00:59:33:05 - 00:59:52:06
Chuck Marohn
What I did, what I came up with was this four step approach. And it's something we had talked about internally, like in a rough sense, but actually put it on a slide. Yeah. And you know, because you give presentations too, you go through. And then I got to this slide and I'm doing it for the first time and was in a room of a few hundred people all of a sudden, John.

00:59:52:06 - 01:00:18:22
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, everybody's phone came out. Yeah. They started photographing this slide and I'm like, okay, oh wow, I hit, I hit on something very raw. This idea of how do we determine the project that we should do. Yeah. And when I look at the street car go by, I realized that somebody really wanted a street car, and they thought we could go get a federal grant and put in the street car, and wouldn't it be great?

01:00:18:25 - 01:00:35:24
Chuck Marohn
And I'm not going to argue that it's not great or we shouldn't have done it. Right, right. But the four step process and the strong hands approach in general says start with what people urgently need. Right. Where are people struggling? Yeah. Where are they having a hard time doing the next thing. Yeah.

01:00:35:26 - 01:00:38:20
John Simmerman
And then and I guarantee I guarantee you in this neighborhood.

01:00:38:25 - 01:00:39:15
John Simmerman
Oh yeah.

01:00:39:18 - 01:00:48:04
John Simmerman
One of the things that they needed was a park because this is a relatively recent, you know, transformation.

01:00:48:04 - 01:00:52:13
Chuck Marohn
I love how this centers on the street. And they got the geometry of this. Really?

01:00:52:13 - 01:00:56:00
John Simmerman
Well, yeah, but the idea is, how do we.

01:00:56:03 - 01:01:13:06
Chuck Marohn
Then do that next thing. Yeah. And instead of waiting for the grant to come through or the big project that come through or the caf on premise plan to come through, you go out and you take the stuff you have on hand and you do it. Yeah, I, I know Barkha Patel's story, we featured her in a bunch of things.

01:01:13:06 - 01:01:38:26
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. But watching her yesterday do the keynote at the gathering, it it blew me away. And there were things that I did not, had not put together in her story. Eight years, right. And eight years. And she started with going and getting golf. that got tennis court paint, right. That was like you left over that they were using and started putting that down on streets.

01:01:38:26 - 01:01:56:11
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. Not the right color, not the right style. Not going to, you know, but like this is what we got. Surplus. Yeah. Yeah. And so if this is all I got I can go make streets safer with this. Yeah. And I'm like, that is what we're all about. Like take what you have on hand, go out and like, fix things.

01:01:56:12 - 01:02:18:26
Chuck Marohn
Right. And I think a lot of times our professional class, of which I am part of. So I'm, you know, yeah. But my fellow engineers, my fellow planners, we can only think in terms of big things. Right? The way you go about fixing this, there was a crash the other day. It was the third crash this year in the same spot.

01:02:18:28 - 01:02:41:26
Chuck Marohn
Hit a building right in an intersection in Long Beach, California. The city said it will take $25 million to fix this right? $25 million means you're going to redo everything, right? And we're going to wait and let cars continue to crash in until we get the money to redo everything. Yeah, go put up some bars. Go put up a jersey barrier.

01:02:41:27 - 01:03:04:00
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. Could use some paint to narrow up the lanes, slow traffic down coming in. There's a million things you can do with, like the stuff you got in surplus. And this is I think where we fall short is that it's great to have Daniel Burnham's vision make no little plans and I, I, I will not criticize someone for having big dreams and making big plans.

01:03:04:02 - 01:03:14:03
Chuck Marohn
But if we don't take the next step, if we don't act with the things we have today, you can spend your whole career. You're gonna spend your whole life just like waiting for the big plan to come, and you're gonna be disappointed by it.

01:03:14:09 - 01:03:15:02
John Simmerman
Yeah.

01:03:15:04 - 01:03:33:17
John Simmerman
One of the things I love about, you know, what we've seen, you know, here in Cincinnati, walking around here in the Over-the-Rhine district, we're at the Music Hall and a beautiful old historic building here. As you can tell. Yeah. And and what I really love about this, too, is you're also looking at what you already have in terms of your assets.

01:03:33:17 - 01:03:48:17
John Simmerman
You look across the way here at this park and you see a couple that have been fixed up and a couple that still need to be fixed up. And what are we doing to you to make it easier for that incremental developer to be able to streamline it, show some love to that. Bring it back.

01:03:48:22 - 01:04:15:06
Chuck Marohn
Whoever designed this park was very genius. This park has great symmetry. It really, when I say symmetry, I mean walking through it. You're you're comforted the entire way. And what it does is because of that strong symmetry, it draws out the other stuff around it. It actually accents this building. It accents those buildings out there. It makes them part of, like this, this installation.

01:04:15:06 - 01:04:33:21
Chuck Marohn
And it's really it's very powerful. This is, I wonder if they do like bands and stuff here. I mean, it's got that kind of feel to it, right? Like, come and hang out in the park. Yeah. this is a very well done. Very nice. Yeah. Very nice. I'm. I'm impressed. I did not know this was here.

01:04:33:23 - 01:04:54:27
John Simmerman
So I'm. I'm fulfilling my role of of knowing you now for well over a decade. And, and I say fulfilling my role because a decade ago, this month, we were in San Antonio and, we had a really rough, couple days in San Antonio. It was fun, but it was it was it was rough.

01:04:54:27 - 01:04:56:03
Chuck Marohn
It was challenging. It was.

01:04:56:03 - 01:04:56:19
John Simmerman
Challenging.

01:04:56:19 - 01:05:08:21
Chuck Marohn
I have good memories. Yeah, because the people were very receptive. They were. Yeah. But the cognitive dissonance between what they viewed the world as and what the world actually was, was it was challenging.

01:05:08:21 - 01:05:14:28
John Simmerman
Yeah. And the other thing that's challenging for you is your time is in such demand.

01:05:15:00 - 01:05:15:23
John Simmerman
that you.

01:05:15:26 - 01:05:24:09
John Simmerman
You, you don't see very much more than the inside of a hotel room. And off to this event. And then that event, etc.. Yeah. What did I do for you?

01:05:24:16 - 01:05:27:28
Chuck Marohn
Oh, man. But I have a I have a completely different view of Cincinnati.

01:05:28:00 - 01:05:30:05
John Simmerman
Yeah. And what did I do for you in San Antonio?

01:05:30:06 - 01:05:49:20
Chuck Marohn
No, I have a completed review in San Antonio. You took me to some neighborhoods. We walked around and I saw some things that I would otherwise not have seen. Yeah, and that is true. I had a a view of Cincinnati that was not poor. Right. And you made it even better than it was. Yeah. My view of San Antonio was poor.

01:05:49:23 - 01:05:50:22
Chuck Marohn
And you gave me hope.

01:05:50:26 - 01:05:51:05
John Simmerman
Yeah.

01:05:51:12 - 01:05:52:13
Chuck Marohn
So yes, we are.

01:05:52:13 - 01:06:03:03
John Simmerman
Literally what I'm did was literally what we did was, was get a couple blocks off of a road into a leafy neighborhood. Yeah. The temperature immediately went down.

01:06:03:04 - 01:06:03:29
John Simmerman
Yeah.

01:06:04:01 - 01:06:13:18
John Simmerman
Because that was like May 5th or May 6th, you know, ten years ago, 2014. And you commented right away, you're like, oh my gosh.

01:06:13:20 - 01:06:15:10
Chuck Marohn
The temperature just went down. Yeah.

01:06:15:12 - 01:06:17:11
John Simmerman
No, my point then. Yeah. Yeah.

01:06:17:11 - 01:06:18:24
John Simmerman
It's like your stress melted.

01:06:18:24 - 01:06:20:24
Chuck Marohn
Away okay I am a Minnesota.

01:06:20:28 - 01:06:21:17
John Simmerman
Yes.

01:06:21:19 - 01:06:44:12
Chuck Marohn
So Texas is very hot for me. Yes. and we were I was in the monkey suit then too. Yeah. So we were walking and I'm like, this is oppressive heat. But I'm doing this for you, John. Yeah. And then we did just walk into this. This. It was just street trees, but they were old trees, right? In an old neighborhood.

01:06:44:14 - 01:07:09:27
Chuck Marohn
And they, they did have this calming, peaceful effect. Yeah. And then just dramatically lower the temperature. Yeah. And I got to tell you, I've, I've, I've felt that effect, you know, where I'm from a little bit, but I never felt it that way. Yeah. It was pronounced I mean it had to be, it had to be eight, ten degrees a Fahrenheit difference between.

01:07:09:27 - 01:07:11:22
John Simmerman
Did you notice it today when we were going, oh.

01:07:11:22 - 01:07:37:09
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, little, little bits of the city streets. Yeah. That's the street. But it was you know, you you recognize Joe has this thing he ran into this engineer who's like, I know we don't have any street trees in our city because they attack the sidewalks, right? And he's made it into a joke, right? Like, you know, A Nightmare on Elm Street or something, where, like, the trees are actually assaulting the sidewalks.

01:07:37:11 - 01:07:37:23
Chuck Marohn

01:07:37:26 - 01:07:38:23
John Simmerman
Hey, you gotta love Joe.

01:07:38:25 - 01:07:57:12
Chuck Marohn
I love Joe. He can take anything and make it just way more fun. Yeah, but the reality is, is street trees are, like, the most human thing you can do. Yeah, so I get the nature part of it. They suck up water in Minnesota. They actually catch snow and aspire it so that you actually have less snow to shovel on the ground.

01:07:57:14 - 01:08:15:13
Chuck Marohn
It's funny, the engineers are like, we can't have street trees. We got to have some place to clear the snow, and then we can have a lot less snow to clear if you put in the trees, right? Yeah. So it's this, you know, tug back and forth. Yeah, yeah. I, the most humane thing you can do in a city is put streets.

01:08:15:18 - 01:08:40:27
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. The smartest thing you can do economically is plant trees. Right? Every tree you plant. Joe has this thing he does, and I think he's, I love I mean, I love, love, love, love, Joe. But Joe's taking he takes the, like the cost of doing stormwater and extrapolates it out to, like, if you have so many trees, you have so much less cost.

01:08:40:29 - 01:08:59:15
Chuck Marohn
In a lot of places, the stormwater is like a sunk cost. So you can't really like if you were building a city from scratch, that would all be true. But like here, you've got storm drains, right? Like you've got it's a sunk cost. And so saying you can have a smaller storm drain if you have a tree, it doesn't really matter because the storm drains already here.

01:08:59:20 - 01:09:22:15
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. Right. You can't rip it up and like undo that investment. But a street tree makes these buildings more valuable, right? It makes the land more valuable. If you go and plant a street tree, you're going to spend 75, 150, $500 on a big, nice tree, whatever it is, and you're going to get way more tax revenue back than that.

01:09:22:15 - 01:09:45:19
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. And your people will live a better life. Yeah. I don't know why every city in the country does not have a tree planting program. Yeah. Go find a vacant lot on the edge of town. Put in a bunch of seedlings, nurture them along right when they get 2 or 3 years along, dig them up. Bring them in, put them out.

01:09:45:21 - 01:10:08:19
Chuck Marohn
You can have your your your your people. Do this on their downtime, right. When you maintenance, it's a little bit slower. You can get this done at scale. It is the lowest cost, highest return in investment you can make and you make people's lives better. I feel like we're getting close to where that where the church I went to today was.

01:10:08:19 - 01:10:30:29
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, well, I think that is the Presbyterian. Okay. Maybe there was. I was walking on my, my GPS and I got, I got closest church and I'm like, is that it. It doesn't look like what I thought it would look like, but it was certainly churchy. And then I got up to the front door and it was a Presbyterian, and the Catholic one was on the same block but on the backside.

01:10:30:29 - 01:10:33:14
Chuck Marohn
Okay. And I'm like, well, we can all live together.

01:10:33:15 - 01:10:34:12
John Simmerman
There you go.

01:10:34:15 - 01:10:43:09
Chuck Marohn
Side by side. So in Cincinnati, all the we all gather together.

01:10:43:12 - 01:11:22:20
John Simmerman
So when you when we've been walking around here today, obviously this is a very urban environment. this is, you know, this is how we built cities, you know, back in the day and in a gradually grew to this level of intensity. Let's just to wrap up the book, talk a little bit about the single family home conundrum and how we can try to add a little bit of gentle density to that environment and what, what some strategies are for, for cities.

01:11:22:20 - 01:11:27:15
John Simmerman
And I guess, you know, also throw in like your pitch why people should get the book.

01:11:27:21 - 01:11:31:00
Chuck Marohn
Do you do you want a happy version or a challenging version?

01:11:31:03 - 01:11:34:14
John Simmerman
Whatever you think is going to inspire people to buy your book?

01:11:34:16 - 01:11:38:22
John Simmerman
Okay. well, I'm trying to.

01:11:38:25 - 01:11:41:01
John Simmerman
I'm trying to satisfy your your publisher.

01:11:41:01 - 01:11:43:29
John Simmerman
Here. Are you. That's very kind of.

01:11:44:02 - 01:12:11:06
Chuck Marohn
the book is a bestseller, so we're actually doing fine. Yeah. no. So the single family home solves the problem. It solves the problem at scale. At the end of World War two, it it allowed us, I mean, culturally recognize there's there's my church right over there. Yeah. Like over. It was great. This is William Henry Harrison, too.

01:12:11:08 - 01:12:37:20
Chuck Marohn
the shortest lived president. So the single family home solve this problem at the end of World War two. We could get people into places they desired. Because people. I mean, I think for all the urbanist rhetoric, there is a broad desire for having your own castle. I mean, that's always been something that rich people had was a castle in the countryside, you know, away from the city, away from everybody else.

01:12:37:23 - 01:12:57:10
Chuck Marohn
Totally get it. And we said, you know what? We can stay out of another Great Depression. We can do something with all these troops coming back, we'll build this new version of America. We'll create single family homes all over the place. It works really well in the first life cycle. Yeah. People get take on mortgages, they finance the debt.

01:12:57:12 - 01:13:18:16
Chuck Marohn
Cities get all this growth and all these jobs created. You got to go to, you know, the hardware store and get stuff for your house. So this has all these like secondary and tertiary effects. Economists talk about infrastructure as having a multiplier. But they're really saying is that at the end of World War two, when we built infrastructure in the first life cycle, it had this massive multiplier.

01:13:18:18 - 01:13:45:03
Chuck Marohn
And they are right. What they don't talk about and what they don't calculate is that all this comes with a maintenance cost. So someone's got to go out and fix the road. Someone's got to go out and fix the pipe. Someone's got to go out and redesign the house and put on a new roof and all that. And that has to come out of your cash, that that's not something that when you build it, you get a mortgage for when you buy the house, you get a mortgage.

01:13:45:05 - 01:14:03:27
Chuck Marohn
When you fix the roof, you have to like, pay for it somehow. When you're the city and you get a new road, you get all this tax base. When you got to go and fix the road, you don't get a new tax base right? Okay. So cities financially are screwed. We literally have built more stuff than we have the tax base to maintain.

01:14:03:27 - 01:14:39:27
Chuck Marohn
And it really comes down to the single family home and the kind of denuded or spread out pattern of development having huge costs and not enough wealth, not enough taxable wealth, tax base to actually sustain what we built. As soon as you recognize that, it's a pretty easy recognition to say, well, a lot of stuff's going to go away and be the stuff that's not going to go away is going to be the places where neighborhoods become more productive, where we make better use of the stuff we've currently built.

01:14:39:29 - 01:14:53:22
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. How do we get more homes on the street? How do we get more businesses on a block, you know, 100ft of pipe? How do we get more connections? How do we get more stuff? Right?

01:14:53:24 - 01:15:14:12
Chuck Marohn
The amazing thing about that is that we can actually deal with our housing problem and deal with our municipal insolvency problem, the same problem. We can deal with them at the same time in the same way. We got to build a bunch of stuff, and we have to build a bunch of stuff because our cities are broke and they need more tax based on their existing system.

01:15:14:12 - 01:15:34:26
Chuck Marohn
Yeah, yeah. We also need to build a lot of stuff because we don't have enough housing and we don't have enough housing at entry level price points. Right. And so by going out and filling in the gaps, allowing people to take that fourth bedroom that they're not using anymore because their kids don't live at home anymore and turn that into an accessory apartment.

01:15:34:28 - 01:15:45:22
Chuck Marohn
It's like a very simple thing to do. The kids used to have cars in the driveway. You can just have the renter park in the driveway. Now, this is not like it's not like radical transformation. The neighbor.

01:15:45:24 - 01:15:50:19
John Simmerman
Imagine this. Maybe you'll actually rent to somebody who doesn't have a car, right?

01:15:50:21 - 01:16:04:02
Chuck Marohn
But I'm just saying, like from a friction standpoint, there's no friction in doing this. Yeah. You can put it in a backyard cottage. You've got a big backyard you don't want to mow, right? Put in a cottage back there and part of it and like, have your renter do the mowing and give them a break on the rent.

01:16:04:03 - 01:16:05:18
Chuck Marohn
They'd be happy to do that.

01:16:05:21 - 01:16:26:01
John Simmerman
And I love the fact that, you know, you had some strategies in there that are, you know, part in this theme that includes, like, you know, you've got somebody who is, you know, maybe a widower or a widow and she's, you know, has excess space. How can we make it easy for them to be able to bring.

01:16:26:03 - 01:16:26:17
Chuck Marohn
In her home?

01:16:26:20 - 01:16:27:25
John Simmerman
Howard, stay in her home.

01:16:27:27 - 01:16:50:09
Chuck Marohn
Get out of her house. Yeah. How do we help her live a humane life? And one of the strategies we've taken off the table is for her to turn her excess house into cash. Right? Like, why would we do that? That's something that humans have done. my kids had, a camera with a book was one of the American Girl dolls.

01:16:50:12 - 01:17:08:20
Chuck Marohn
Had it like a book series. And this one family was on, you know, run into hard times. And so they started, like, renting out one of their rooms. Yeah. And and I thought, like, yeah, like, that's what people used to do all the time. Yeah. Like that was very, very common. You, you have an extra room. You need some money.

01:17:08:22 - 01:17:31:07
Chuck Marohn
you know, rent it out. That's very, very common. We make that illegal today for so many weird reasons. We can solve multiple problems simultaneously by just going out and building incrementally in our existing neighborhoods. And when we do that, some neighborhoods are going to resist. They're not going to want it. They're going to say like, we're not we're not partaking.

01:17:31:07 - 01:17:48:15
Chuck Marohn
We're not doing that. I don't even want to have that fight. Yeah, there will be other neighborhoods who will embrace it and say, we're ready to do this. We're ready to go. Let's add those more units. Let's let's convert those single family homes into duplexes. Let's allow the corner store. Let's do these things that will make this a better neighborhood.

01:17:48:15 - 01:18:07:10
Chuck Marohn
Yeah. And when the city's trying to triage their budget. Hey, we got ten miles a road we need to maintain. We only have budget for one mile. Which one is it? It's got to be that one in the neighborhood that is growing and thickening up and becoming a better place. Yeah, I feel like the policies align really well when you work bottom up.

01:18:07:16 - 01:18:28:09
John Simmerman
Well, sir, we are back at the hotel. We're back at the Netherland Plaza, so we should probably wrap this up and call it a day. Chuck, thank you so much. Yeah, nice to see you. It's it's always wonderful to to, you know, have an excuse to to chat and, and I love the fact that we can chat even when we don't have an excuse and don't have a reason.

01:18:28:12 - 01:18:47:22
John Simmerman
And please don't forget to pick up your copy of Escaping the Housing Trap. The strong town's response to the housing Crisis by Chuck Marone and Daniel here. I guess I highly recommend it. And if you've enjoyed this walk and talk with Chuck Moran in the Over-the-Rhine district of Cincinnati, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend.

01:18:47:27 - 01:19:09:22
John Simmerman
And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and don't forget to ring the notification bell. And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. It's easy to do. Just navigate over to active towns dawg, and then click on the support tab at the top of the page.

01:19:09:25 - 01:19:27:03
John Simmerman
Again, thank you all so much for tuning in. It really means so much to me. And as we close out, I hope you enjoy the rest of the still photography that I shot while walking around the Over-the-Rhine district. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and.

01:19:27:03 - 01:19:57:16
John Simmerman
Happiness. Cheers!

01:19:57:18 - 01:20:06:24
John Simmerman
This.

01:20:06:27 - 01:20:26:22
John Simmerman
Crash. And again, sending a huge thank you out to all my active towns. Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patreon. Buy me a coffee. YouTube. Super. Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the Active Town store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated. Thank you all so much!