Transcript exported from the video version of this episode - Note that it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:03 - 00:00:21:07
Taylor Griggs
Looking at places that have the infrastructure designed to make it safe for people to take. And it's something, you know, if you continue doing it for your whole life, why would you stop? You feel like it's just a it's a joyful and normal part of your life. And yeah, lots of kids biking out by themselves and hanging out in parks by themselves.

00:00:21:08 - 00:00:29:12
Taylor Griggs
I mean, it's that sense of independence throughout their lives that I really it's very sad for me that we don't we don't have that here.

00:00:29:27 - 00:00:55:07
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman and that was Taylor Griggs. Taylor is a staff writer for BikePortland.org. And she just got back from a month long trip in Europe. And so we have some reflections about some of the things that she learned during her trip over there and how some of those things that she picked up can be applied here in North America.

00:00:55:24 - 00:01:02:25
John Simmerman
It is a fabulous conversation and I look forward to sharing it with you now. Enjoy.

00:01:06:02 - 00:01:10:25
John Simmerman
Taylor Griggs It is an absolute joy and honor having you on the Active Towns podcast. Welcome.

00:01:11:14 - 00:01:16:07
Taylor Griggs
Thank you very much. It's an honor and joy to be. I very much appreciate you asking me.

00:01:16:18 - 00:01:22:28
John Simmerman
Absolutely. I love to have my guests just give a quick little introduction of themselves. So who is Taylor Griggs?

00:01:24:16 - 00:01:50:12
Taylor Griggs
Yes, So, yeah, I'm Taylor. I live in Portland, Oregon. I've been writing for Portland for over a year now, a little bit over a year. I started last November. I am from Colorado originally and I have kind of always been interested in urban design, but not necessarily put that name on it. I mean, I liked to bike as a kid and use public transportation.

00:01:50:12 - 00:02:25:26
Taylor Griggs
I was always very interested in it, but I didn't. I studied journalism in college. I didn't really take any urban development classes. It was after I going into this introduction because I a lot of people kind of tell how they got into the kind of the urbanist rabbit hole, which is sort of a part of their introduction. I think it's yeah, very it's always very interesting to find out what what was it that that got people interested in this For me, I don't know exactly.

00:02:25:26 - 00:02:50:03
Taylor Griggs
It seems like one day I just sort of I kind of was hearing about May maybe online and I was like, wow, this is actually extremely interesting. I think I was interested in kind of finding a niche for myself as a journalist. And I realized, I guess this is something that that people really do and this is could be something I could focus on.

00:02:50:03 - 00:03:00:18
Taylor Griggs
So yeah, and then it was all from there. I became every day I learn something new and I become more educated on it.

00:03:01:04 - 00:03:04:29
John Simmerman
Yeah, well, it's interesting too. So now what part of Colorado where you live.

00:03:06:08 - 00:03:10:24
Taylor Griggs
From the suburbs south of Denver. Okay. Centennial. Yeah. Okay.

00:03:11:03 - 00:03:14:21
John Simmerman
Okay, fantastic. And then you went away to college in Oregon?

00:03:15:19 - 00:03:17:19
Taylor Griggs
Yes, I went to the University of Oregon.

00:03:18:01 - 00:03:20:19
John Simmerman
Oh, okay. Right there in Eugene.

00:03:20:19 - 00:03:21:00
Taylor Griggs
Mhm.

00:03:21:10 - 00:03:48:14
John Simmerman
Oh, okay, cool. Well, and that's, it's a pretty interesting place, Eugene. There's a fair amount of active mobility there in Eugene. They're working hard to try to build out their bike network there. Like most university towns, like Boulder, with, with the you, you know, there's a fair amount of energy and use and there is that sort of inclination towards a lot of walking and biking.

00:03:48:16 - 00:04:07:11
Taylor Griggs
Yes, for sure. I liked a lot in Eugene. It was really important to me to have a bike when I was there and it wasn't something I thought about very much, though. I mean, it was just kind of what what I did. And I really didn't know any names for any anything related to, you know, bike infrastructure or anything like that.

00:04:07:29 - 00:04:34:18
Taylor Griggs
But at a certain point, I was working for a local newspaper there and kind of covering government meetings, and there was a week where there wasn't much going on and I was kind of looking around for something to cover. And there was like the local active transportation meeting. And I sat in on that and it was, I think the first time that anybody had covered their active transportation meeting of like ten people for this little town.

00:04:34:18 - 00:04:42:19
Taylor Griggs
I found it extremely interesting and I tried to convey that to other people in the best way I could. And now that's kind of what I do all the time. So yeah.

00:04:42:19 - 00:05:19:21
John Simmerman
And that's what you do all the time. That's that's pretty funny. And you actually kind of hit my radar screen. A because I subscribe to Bike Portland dot org and in support to the work that you all have been doing there in the Portland area. I try to make it to Portland as often as I can. For a while there I was there on the ground every summer to film some of the Sun events, the Sun Parkway events, the open streets events, especially in the far northeast corridor or in the Gateway District.

00:05:20:22 - 00:05:51:08
John Simmerman
That particular area out there is what I like to call the most in Portland of Portland neighborhoods, because it's basically, you know, one of those far reaching suburbs. And so I've been documenting over the years sort of the the the halls, the, you know, corridor. And they're trying to build out the the protected bikeways out there. And so anyways, I always keep an eye on what Portland is doing and what's happening.

00:05:51:16 - 00:06:18:20
John Simmerman
And this particular article hit my radar screen and I was like, Ooh, I got to talk with Taylor because you were talking about, you know, advisory bike lanes and or as they're also known as clean roads and I had done an entire episode with Michael Williams, who also lives there in the Portland area and is a subject matter expert worldwide in advisory bike lanes and edge lane roads.

00:06:18:29 - 00:06:34:06
John Simmerman
And so I was super, super stoked to see that you were writing about advisory bike lanes and edge lane roads and that's how you and I got connected. I reached out and said, Yes, I know you're over there. This is literally you were there at the time, right?

00:06:34:06 - 00:06:57:20
Taylor Griggs
I think this is the first article that I wrote and. Yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah. I thought I knew something before I started, but now I look at you, I it's like, wow, I really had no idea because I it does take the kind of work that you need to be doing it on a daily basis, combing through these kind of government documents.

00:06:58:07 - 00:07:27:13
Taylor Griggs
People don't have the time to do this. It's very like it's a time consuming thing. And I didn't necessarily. Yeah, every time I read an article, I don't think, okay, I'm going to learn this, this and this, but it just kind of happens that way. You're just know, it's like, what? What is this? I mean, learning about, I don't know, like different freight plans or just I can't think of, I guess, really specific examples right now, but just yeah, I've learned a lot.

00:07:27:13 - 00:07:33:16
Taylor Griggs
And definitely it's just kind of through osmosis and yeah, over time. But what's.

00:07:33:24 - 00:08:15:18
John Simmerman
What's good about this. Yeah, what's neat about this process too is like you're able to start to put were, you know, words to things that you're seeing and experiencing and and also words to, to feelings. And you know, the thing that I see that is right there, people feel comfortable enough using the streets and that's when it really gets past the wonkiness and using all this terminology and gets down to the level of readers and your community members is because what matters most is, you know, that side of the narrative, that side of the storytelling of feelings.

00:08:16:01 - 00:08:16:18
John Simmerman
How does it.

00:08:16:18 - 00:08:17:03
Taylor Griggs
Oh yeah.

00:08:17:17 - 00:08:19:13
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And yes.

00:08:19:14 - 00:08:47:03
Taylor Griggs
And I love talking to people and yeah, for sure. So in this advisory bike lane story I was very interested in because we as I said in the article, I had just seen some that they recently put in Portland, kind of near where you're talking about out in East Portland. So a part of the city that has a I mean, yeah, like you said, kind of the most on Portland area.

00:08:47:03 - 00:09:06:00
Taylor Griggs
So it was surprising to me upon first seeing these when I before I had gone to the Netherlands that this is the place they decided to put them because I was I'm a little skeptical that the people who drive out there who aren't used to a much bike infrastructure at all, will kind of know what to do with these.

00:09:06:09 - 00:09:38:10
Taylor Griggs
And then going to Utrecht, which is a place where they have just ingrained into the city that cyclists are to be respected. And you know, people who drive cars are really not prioritized in their planning, which is it was so crazy and unfamiliar to, to see that. And, and it made me doubt that these kind of advisory bike lanes can work well in the places that the planning isn't really going out of its way to prioritize cyclists.

00:09:38:10 - 00:09:50:20
Taylor Griggs
Like there's a cultural element that I fear will make these less useful in places like Portland and throughout the US and in the Netherlands.

00:09:51:00 - 00:09:58:05
John Simmerman
You just recently got back the beginning of this month. Why don't you just take a moment to reflect upon what it was like?

00:09:58:08 - 00:10:26:02
Taylor Griggs
Yes, for sure. So for context, I traveled to Europe. I just was in. I went to Amsterdam, Utrecht, Copenhagen, Brussels, Paris and Bilbao and Barcelona and Spain. And I went because my sister is teaching English right now in Bilbao. So that was kind of the impetus for going a visit to her. And, you know, I don't go there very often.

00:10:26:02 - 00:10:51:01
Taylor Griggs
So I was kind of turning this into a bigger trip. And obviously as I've been, you know, immersed in urbanism and bike infrastructure over the past year or so, I've heard a lot about these places and it's everybody it's kind of a ritual, I guess, for people to take these these trips and find out what's going on in places overseas.

00:10:51:01 - 00:11:17:26
Taylor Griggs
And I've been I've been to Europe before this, but I was not as aware, paying as much attention to to I didn't have names for things like I do now. So I was excited to go in with a different perspective. So I guess what I learned, I mean, I learned a lot. It was it was very interesting. I think that there is kind of that struggle between the cultural aspects and the design and what can be implemented in the US and what can't.

00:11:18:03 - 00:11:55:19
Taylor Griggs
I think that we could certainly be doing a lot more. And I actually appreciate I didn't mean to come off very critical towards the city for putting in these advisory bike lanes because I appreciate doing that kind of experimentation, especially when it's following like these progressive bike cities in Europe. I just I think there is such a difference here that it makes it more important to have drastic design that like forces people driving to respect people who aren't in cars in a way that they.

00:11:55:29 - 00:12:01:17
Taylor Griggs
Yeah. And as it's design now that's just not what is natural to do. Yeah so yeah.

00:12:02:22 - 00:12:37:14
John Simmerman
And the reason I fast forwarded to this particular areas is this was one of your last learnings that you highlighted here and you said try it, try your best to stay away from mythologizing and and there's your sister and you guys are. Yes, they're in Brussels and, and I think Brussels is a great example of a European city that's struggling, that's striving to try to get better, but similar to Portland, similar to many of the cities in North America, there's still a long way to go.

00:12:37:21 - 00:12:53:21
John Simmerman
It was very interesting to see that one of the very first points that you highlighted in this article was talking about grade separation in that design ethic of of how important that was or how important that made you feel while you were on the ground there.

00:12:55:02 - 00:13:26:12
Taylor Griggs
Yeah. And I think I said in here that there's some elements of it that's like perceived safety. Yes. Because, you know, a few inches of grade separation, it isn't that much. And and somebody still could drive up on there. But just the fact that, yeah, I felt like I was distinct here and that was that was helpful I think for for feeling yes and safe and in Copenhagen where they really implement grade separation and I, I really liked it.

00:13:26:21 - 00:13:28:15
Taylor Griggs
We don't have a lot of that here So.

00:13:29:02 - 00:13:45:04
John Simmerman
You made the point to that the grade separation also applies to the differentiation between the the cycle lane and the pedestrian realm, too. So there there is that stepped grade separation between each of the the modes. Yeah.

00:13:45:26 - 00:14:14:21
Taylor Griggs
Yeah. Plus there's like in the sidewalks are often made of cobblestone or something a lot rougher that you can walk on and not bike on. So it, it creates even more of a separation which in a place like Copenhagen, there's just not that kind of conflict between people walking and biking that there is in Amsterdam, which I think I said in another article about this there there definitely is when there's so many people biking.

00:14:14:21 - 00:14:29:24
Taylor Griggs
I mean, I don't know, there's some amount of of conflict there between all the people walking too. But I think it's it's okay. I mean, obviously people on bikes are a lot less likely to cause major harm than if you're driving a car. Yeah.

00:14:30:15 - 00:14:40:11
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I love this, too, is because this goes back to design sometimes it's the little things, the little little touches that make so much of the difference.

00:14:40:11 - 00:14:59:19
Taylor Griggs
Yeah. I mean, these are in some way when I can get around without them. It's. I'm biking around Portland. I'm thinking, do I really need this? But it kind of shows a respect for the transportation mode That is like giving little accommodations just to make people feel comfortable. And it's not that big of a deal. It's not that.

00:15:00:13 - 00:15:09:19
Taylor Griggs
Yeah, but it would really show something. I mean, yeah, these allow you to kind of lean on something when you're waiting. You don't have to totally dismount. Yeah.

00:15:10:15 - 00:15:13:06
John Simmerman
You know, the very first time I ever saw one of those in the wild.

00:15:14:15 - 00:15:14:23
Taylor Griggs
Hmm.

00:15:15:15 - 00:15:19:21
John Simmerman
Was was in the Pacific Northwest. It was up in Seattle. They had just.

00:15:19:21 - 00:15:29:09
Taylor Griggs
Yeah, they do have some of there. Yeah, that's cool. I should. I want, like to check it out at some point. Yeah. And I wonder if people use them to the same degree where.

00:15:29:19 - 00:15:52:22
John Simmerman
They seem to be pretty well well used. Yeah. The one that I'm thinking of was on a very, very busy bike corridor area right in front of a Starbucks there. And it's just, you know, it was it was a wonderful location to do it. And it it was such a high profile area that, you know, other people see other people using it as like, oh, yeah, this is a nice little convenience.

00:15:52:22 - 00:15:56:13
John Simmerman
And and it's those little things that just make all the difference.

00:15:56:13 - 00:15:57:03
Taylor Griggs
Yeah. So, so.

00:15:57:13 - 00:16:12:05
John Simmerman
Yeah. Any, any other thoughts that, you know, now that you, you know, or even a couple of weeks out from having been there that are, you know, sort of popping into your head and just really resonating about the trip?

00:16:13:25 - 00:16:34:00
Taylor Griggs
Well, I've realized that when I since I've been back and biking around Portland which before I felt very, very comfortable doing it and used to it. And I it's some of it is just for a while I kind of I hurt my hand and I wasn't biking very much for a couple of weeks. So it's just kind of getting back into it at all.

00:16:34:09 - 00:17:06:08
Taylor Griggs
I don't think I like. I was only in Europe for a month and I don't think I really totally acclimated or anything like that. But coming back, I realize I feel kind of some amount of social anxiety about shared roads with car drivers that I didn't really I'd been able to get over before. And I think that the fact that people will yell at you or just I feel some internal pressure to to be going fast and kind of keeping things moving quickly.

00:17:06:08 - 00:17:31:23
Taylor Griggs
And I think that that's particularly it could be a problem for women who feel like they need to be accommodating all the time. Just socialize to do that. So something that I've noticed in Europe that's just not an issue like that, you always have a place to go. I mean, if you're biking, you're not going to have to worry about what the people driving behind you are thinking because they have their space and you have yours.

00:17:31:23 - 00:17:57:18
Taylor Griggs
And there's just a culture and a design that you feel like you have the right to be there, kind of. And I it made me think of this tick tock or something I'd seen at some point that mentioned like, it's embarrassing to walk in a city that's not like very pedestrian friendly. And it was sort of funny. I just think it's like embarrassing to walk around in an area without crosswalks or something.

00:17:57:18 - 00:18:24:15
Taylor Griggs
But it does. It feels like you're you're doing something out of the ordinary that you're drawing a lot of attention to yourself. And it's just you're kind of disrupting the way of everybody. What else everybody else is doing. And I think that people of all like who might feel more comfortable doing something like that, just it's a lot easier to do when there's places dedicated for you.

00:18:25:06 - 00:18:52:10
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting, too, because when we when we think of the like, especially the Dutch network, when we look at the Dutch network cycle network, only about 30% of the Dutch cycle network is actually protected or separated space. 70% of the entire network is actually some form of shared space, whether it's like like an edge lane road or a ft Strut.

00:18:52:24 - 00:19:33:17
John Simmerman
But then it gets to the other thing that we were talking about is that there is that reality, though, that not only are the drivers driving more cautiously, but in that scenario, in that situation, they are also more likely than not to be on a bike in just a matter of minutes or hours because they're much more likely to also bike, which is is kind of the flip of what we have, you know, in North America, where it's very unlikely that the driver of the motor vehicle is going to be, you know, riding a bike in a matter of a few minutes.

00:19:34:24 - 00:20:06:20
Taylor Griggs
Oh, yeah, totally. Yes. So definitely. And so the shared streets that we have here in Portland, the neighborhood greenways, which I think could be a great idea and really are in some areas where there are traffic calming measures really put in, they're just still normal. I mean, there's always that sense, okay, I'm like, this person is driving really close behind me right now, like feeling kind of apologetic for taking up space on this street that you have every right to be there when you're biking.

00:20:06:28 - 00:20:25:29
Taylor Griggs
I mean, you do on every street, really. And I'm not theoretically, I really disagree with what I'm saying about the way that I feel sometimes. But in practice, I get nervous about it and it's come back stronger since I've gotten back, which I'm hoping to overcome again.

00:20:25:29 - 00:20:49:10
John Simmerman
But well, one of the interesting things, too, is that it was pointed out to me by some of my Dutch friends. In fact, Mark Valkenburgh bicycle Dutch, you know, pointed out that there's a cultural ethic, too, of just being comfortable with being close, very close to other people. And so when they're when they're riding their bikes, you know, they're very comfortable being very, very close to each other.

00:20:49:24 - 00:21:06:23
John Simmerman
They're very comfortable being very close to motor vehicles and having motor vehicles be very close to them. They're just like, yeah, no, we're used to this. And like, Oh, wow, yeah, they don't they don't get upset about, Oh, that car got too close to me. It's like, yeah, no, it's, we're, we're used to being close to each other.

00:21:07:13 - 00:21:30:09
Taylor Griggs
So, yeah, it would be fine if I didn't feel like they're trying to push me off the road in some way. I mean, yeah, just be. It is, but it's. It seems like people are impatient, and maybe not all the time, and I attribute that wrongly to some people. Yeah, and I'm hyper vigilant about it or something. But there's definitely just that that difference here.

00:21:30:09 - 00:21:37:26
Taylor Griggs
And I think yeah, you're right. It's the fact that a lot of people just don't know what it's like, I guess to get around my bike now.

00:21:37:26 - 00:21:51:09
John Simmerman
You and I both had the opportunity to go and visit Paris and you had a little bit of a rough go with Paris and and you mentioned your hands. So why don't you go ahead and share the story?

00:21:52:11 - 00:22:19:18
Taylor Griggs
Yeah. So I was on, like then the first 5 minutes of biking in Paris, which I was very excited to do because there's been a lot said about this transformation over the past few years as a very bikeable city. And this was in a parking protected bike lane. There was just a big kind of bump in the in the lane there that I here.

00:22:19:18 - 00:22:49:06
Taylor Griggs
And I was on a bike, a Dutch style bike with the pedal brakes, and I kind of forgot that I had that because I'm not used to riding a bike like that. And so I kind of was flustered. I didn't know how to stop. And I leaned over on that car to the left there and like, Yeah, I broke the back light with my hand and shattered glass and really cut out my hand and then had some experiences in the French hospital.

00:22:49:06 - 00:22:57:00
Taylor Griggs
Yes, I did talk to the guy whose car that was, by the way, and everything's fine with that. So.

00:22:57:00 - 00:23:20:19
John Simmerman
So yeah, So it was a little bit of a rough start, a rough go with Paris. And in the article, you also sort of mentioned the fact that you felt a little compelled to go there because so many people were talking about it. The whole reason why I went out of my way during my three week trip, European trip this past fall to to make it to Paris was the same thing.

00:23:20:26 - 00:23:40:05
John Simmerman
I kept hearing about all the transformations my last trip there was in 2015. And so I was like, okay, I got to go there. I need to I need to document some of this. And so so that was part of the reason why you felt compelled to to make it back over there and and to check it out.

00:23:40:24 - 00:23:51:09
John Simmerman
Other than being the hand, the rough go with the the injury to the hand, what were your what were your observations and thoughts over your previous trip?

00:23:53:04 - 00:24:27:00
Taylor Griggs
Well, yeah, it's hard to compare my previous trip because at the time I just was not looking out for the same things that I am now. So I ultimately was I think this experience was positive. As I kind of said, I think I mean, it was interesting to experience the French health care system like I did the people where I didn't experience, like any victim blaming for which we really I kind of messed up when I was biking here.

00:24:27:00 - 00:24:56:29
Taylor Griggs
So it was, you know, there was some infrastructure issues, but it wasn't really anybody's fault. But everyone was very kind, or at least they I thought they were because they were speaking French and I didn't understand. But yeah, I think that I whenever a city or gets really heralded as being kind of the new mecca of something and it's hyped up in a way because that's what gets headlines and that's what is attractive to say.

00:24:56:29 - 00:25:26:17
Taylor Griggs
It's like this is, you know, it's totally transformed. I wasn't disappointed by it. I wouldn't use that term. It wasn't it's it has some way to go before it can be a Dutch or Danish city. But I do I think they're doing a good job of of putting in short term implementations and just in doing their best to make things happen quickly instead of waiting around forever for it to be perfect.

00:25:26:17 - 00:25:43:24
Taylor Griggs
And I would prefer that, then we don't have to have everything perfect. Of course, it would be nice to have these bumps fixed in the street so this doesn't happen, But you know, it's better in my opinion, to to do what you can as soon as possible. And over time it'll it'll improve.

00:25:44:12 - 00:26:12:18
John Simmerman
Yeah. I'm lingering on this shot because this is one of the things that reminds me of my my trip to Paris in 2015 because I went out of my way to be there for their very first car free day. And so I got to experience Paris the very first time. They just opened up all of these streets to people to walk and bike and rollerblade and skateboard.

00:26:12:18 - 00:26:41:11
John Simmerman
And I think that this is incredibly important because it helps to teach and reframe what streets are for. It helps the community see that, hey, our streets can be for something other than just, you know, two ton monstrosities on wheels, you know, rumbling down the streams is it can be. Yeah, more than that.

00:26:42:18 - 00:27:06:10
Taylor Griggs
And I think that's cities in the US also do Yeah. Can do that like you're talking about with the Sunday parkways here in Portland earlier which is something where they close off streets largely to to car traffic for a day and have people biking and walking around. I think that can transform what people it can sort of yeah.

00:27:06:10 - 00:27:18:26
Taylor Griggs
Change your perspective and it's like, wow, this was really nice. Like, how can we make this happen more often? Or how can there be more places like this? We don't have to just wait for the summer, you know, a couple of times every year and we can have this happening more.

00:27:19:10 - 00:27:42:27
John Simmerman
Yeah, Yeah. And one of the other things that, that I think really helps to reframe what our streets are for is starting to occupy that streetscape strategically and intentionally. And that's exactly what this for. This bunch of photos is here. So talk a little bit about what we're seeing here.

00:27:43:18 - 00:28:07:18
Taylor Griggs
Okay. So this is yeah, this was at the very end of the trip. I had this plan that I was very excited for. This is the Barcelona bike bus. This bus, one of them, this is one that goes every single day. And yeah, I love this. And it's this like really small kid here. I think he was like three or four who it was just so great to see.

00:28:07:18 - 00:28:33:25
Taylor Griggs
I mean, this was a the bike bus. Okay. Let me I guess, start over has become very popular recently, in part because of somebody Sam Barto in Portland to has gone really viral on TikTok for his videos of the bike busses here. And he leads one every week in a very particularly walkable and bikeable part of the city.

00:28:34:24 - 00:29:07:08
Taylor Griggs
And there are some kind of cropping up in other parts, but there's none that happen on a daily basis like it does here. So even though they're so smaller than we see in Portland on every everyone's at this particular school, they do it every day and this is like an act. What they were saying afterwards and I talked to some of the parents who lead it is they think of this as like a critical mass kind of protest on a daily basis to like, yeah, reframe what these streets can be used for.

00:29:07:08 - 00:29:27:07
Taylor Griggs
And when you see kids like this in the street and this is something that yeah, I really feel like this could be hugely transformative. This bike bus revolution, it just it makes people think twice before making some kind of comment about, you know, these people shouldn't be in the streets like they might for for another group of cyclists.

00:29:27:07 - 00:29:36:01
Taylor Griggs
People think it's it's great to see it and then they think, okay, well, how could we make this happen in our city? And people have started to do that, which I think is so great to see. Yeah.

00:29:36:17 - 00:30:06:18
John Simmerman
Yeah, you're right. And a symbol to was featured here on the podcast both in the video and also the audio only versions. And we've also had Megan Ramey, who is also very much involved in these types of activities up in Hood River, Oregon. So it was wonderful to have both Sam and Megan featured here on the podcast. And you're absolutely right, it helps to reframe what is considered normal out in our public realm, out on our streets.

00:30:06:18 - 00:30:28:16
John Simmerman
And it's also just kind of reframing to when we think about our streets and what streets are for. You know, this is this is all about, you know, who is welcome in these spaces. And it's really about all ages and all abilities. And that's such an important thing. I think, to take away from, you know, any of our travels.

00:30:28:24 - 00:30:39:18
John Simmerman
And I get the sense that you really felt that, you know, from your European trip is that you really saw that all ages and abilities sort of welcoming environment.

00:30:40:24 - 00:31:05:12
Taylor Griggs
Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean it was just it really took away any notion that that cycling or walking and using active transportation is is only for a certain subset of people, which is an argument that a lot of people in the US use like, okay, well as soon as you hit six zero or something you're done for, you can't bike anymore.

00:31:05:12 - 00:31:30:11
Taylor Griggs
That's very obviously not true when you're looking at places that have the infrastructure designed to make it safe for people to bike. And it's something, you know, if you continue doing it for your whole life, why would you stop? You feel like it's just a it's a joyful and normal part of your life. And yeah, lots of kids biking out by themselves and and hanging out in parks by themselves.

00:31:30:11 - 00:31:51:23
Taylor Griggs
I mean, it cultivates a sense of independence throughout their life that I really it's very sad for me that we don't we don't have that here. And yeah, I just the people look like they're having a great time all the time and they have so many spaces that they can enjoy. It feels, yeah, a little bit envious of these, these kids that they have this.

00:31:52:16 - 00:32:24:27
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I just, I love this shot right here because this to me really exemplifies what we should be striving for in, you know, cities around the globe. You should feel as if you are able to create an environment where girls that are between the ages of, you know, ten and 16 just feel completely welcome. Being able to explore the environment on the bike, be able to have that sense of freedom.

00:32:25:06 - 00:32:52:14
John Simmerman
And I just I think it's so incredibly powerful because we do see a huge drop off in rates of girls riding. And once they start getting into their teen years, because even in environments where we have a large number of kids riding to school in elementary school, once they start getting into into middle school, those numbers start to drop off a little bit.

00:32:52:14 - 00:33:20:24
John Simmerman
And once they get into high school, they just plummet and they really drop off. But where we don't really see that drop off in, in fact, we see almost an uptick because many times their schools are closed off where they walk to school in the earlier grades. And then it's not until the middle school and then into to the secondary school, the primary or the the high school level where their distances are longer and so their numbers actually go up.

00:33:21:06 - 00:33:32:17
John Simmerman
So this is this is really, really special to me to see, you know, girls, especially girls riding at ten on up into their into their teenage years.

00:33:32:17 - 00:33:55:11
Taylor Griggs
Yeah, I know. And this the girl in the back there, she's just looking relaxed and letting her friends kind of ride around. This is something that is people are doing this here. I mean, there'd be a lot of angry and scared responses or like, how could you let your kids do something like that? But they're totally fine. I mean, they're just not really risky.

00:33:55:11 - 00:34:09:14
Taylor Griggs
Those people are paying attention to them. They do this all the time. They know what they're doing better than. Yeah, we do. I mean, I yeah, I know there'd be some pushback at first, but I really feel like this is important to get over here.

00:34:09:26 - 00:34:26:29
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's good stuff. The other thing that I really noticed when I was over in in Europe, this this past trip was really the the transformation of public space. What were some of the things that you noticed when you were over there?

00:34:27:27 - 00:34:51:03
Taylor Griggs
Yeah, for sure. So much of what people love about Europe, people who don't have necessarily the terminology to describe it, is the fact that, like I didn't before when I went there is that you can just there's so many plazas, there's places to sit. I mean, everybody talks about how in Paris, you know, people are sitting out on the streets, on cafes, just like drinking coffee all day long.

00:34:51:11 - 00:35:12:27
Taylor Griggs
And part of that is, you know, it's part of their culture. But also part of it is they have this public space, too, to do that. And and they're building more. And so this is another example. I have an article about this here in Portland. There's been some talk about transforming car parking spaces on the street into tree planting zones.

00:35:13:03 - 00:35:35:25
Taylor Griggs
And in Amsterdam, they've been doing that a lot. And especially in one particular neighborhood, I thought, okay, some trees zone, some bike parking, there's a lot of that. And then I came upon this area where there's this new play structure like it just where a car used to be parked. It was so crazy to see this because this is like, wow.

00:35:35:25 - 00:35:55:24
Taylor Griggs
I mean, I just can't believe it's awesome that they would would do that. And it's yeah. So they have not in addition to this green space they've also put in a play structure and it just gives kids just another place to enjoy them. I mean, all of Europe, I was like taking pictures of all these playgrounds I saw because they're just everywhere.

00:35:55:24 - 00:36:03:01
Taylor Griggs
And it was, yeah, just so many opportunities for kids to to explore and play with in their cities.

00:36:03:12 - 00:36:04:29
John Simmerman
Well, big kids and little kids.

00:36:05:16 - 00:36:25:25
Taylor Griggs
Yeah, for sure. Like this here and in Copenhagen. There's I think at this park there's also a lot of people roller skating around and this just looks so cool. And yeah, you see parents out with their kids sometimes or sometimes sitting there kind of not paying that much attention to them because it's a safe area for them to be.

00:36:26:05 - 00:36:33:07
Taylor Griggs
There's sort of a trust in independence that I notice between kids and their parents that I don't see very often here.

00:36:33:26 - 00:36:54:13
John Simmerman
Yeah. What I love about these types of photos to is it exemplifies a sense of fun and whimsy that that, you know, just you start to embrace within a community. It's just like, yeah, I mean this is this is fun for adults as well as for kids. I mean.

00:36:54:13 - 00:36:55:10
Taylor Griggs
Oh, yeah, for sure.

00:36:55:19 - 00:36:57:01
John Simmerman
Yeah. It's, it's really yeah.

00:36:57:01 - 00:37:17:06
Taylor Griggs
I mean, what is a city supposed to be for? And it makes you think like, what are we doing if we're not having fun on a regular basis? Like, why have we subjected ourselves to this life in which we can't enjoy ourselves a lot of the time? Yeah. This was in Hamburg. This just really amazing playground. Kind of out of the middle of nowhere.

00:37:17:06 - 00:37:28:07
Taylor Griggs
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it just seems like it's so cool that they prioritize this stuff and it's something that could be super beneficial for so many people.

00:37:28:23 - 00:37:56:28
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, it's, it's that, that concept of creating spaces, welcoming public spaces that, that are trying to attract and bring in people and trying to create stickiness, you know, really doing what we can to encourage people to occupy the space and be in the space. Yeah. Which unfortunately in our is too often the exact opposite is happening.

00:37:56:28 - 00:38:01:15
John Simmerman
We're like doing things to try to discourage people from, from occupying space.

00:38:02:08 - 00:38:31:21
Taylor Griggs
Yeah. And, and people are, are very worried about kind of a loneliness that's pervasive in our society and especially during the pandemic where people have been very isolated from each other. There's a lot of, yeah, isolation and loneliness and having public spaces where people can sit with each other and meet new people and and just go outside instead of being kind of in their own homes or I guess like a third place like Nathan Auerbach talks about.

00:38:32:00 - 00:38:56:02
Taylor Griggs
I mean, you were talking to him about this on on the show. It's yeah, it's a place where you don't have to spend money. You don't it's not work. It's not your house. And you can just hang out and it's like really it's prioritized there in a way that's very it's very cool. And I think it would really bring a lot of of joy to people if we had more of this.

00:38:56:20 - 00:39:02:16
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So are you fully recovered, right?

00:39:03:18 - 00:39:08:24
Taylor Griggs
Yes, I really am. It's all good now. They did a good job of helping me. It was. Yeah.

00:39:09:03 - 00:39:12:20
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And it was. It was the left hand to right. It wasn't your.

00:39:12:20 - 00:39:49:03
Taylor Griggs
Yes. Yeah. Not, not my writing hand. Yeah. Yeah. I'm totally fine now. It was ultimately a good experience. I was, I was kind of glad that it happened to end, but everyone's very nice. Very helpful. Yeah, but I guess I want to add, like, as I can, we kind of talked about a little bit. I think it's important for people talking about European urbanism in the US to make it accessible and not just kind of some vague inspiration of like wouldn't this be so nice?

00:39:49:03 - 00:40:18:24
Taylor Griggs
But we can never get there. And I hope that what I have been talking about in what I've written about doesn't kind of exalt these places as being perfect, because there are there are problems there. There are people who are working really hard to make this happen. Lots of advocacy groups, especially in the places that are kind of up and coming, I guess for biking like Paris and Barcelona and Brussels, there's like critical mass groups that they have there.

00:40:19:02 - 00:40:38:22
Taylor Griggs
Similar style to in the US. And I just yeah, it's important to kind of look at how this came to be in a way that I don't know it's I think it's going to be difficult seeing how much pushback there is to just the idea of like the 15 minute city. It's so weird that people are so upset about this.

00:40:38:22 - 00:41:00:19
Taylor Griggs
I mean, it makes no sense. And so it just shows that there is a difference here in our societies that we're going to have to combat. And yeah, I want to talk about it in a way that's helpful and makes it seem feasible for us to do here instead of completely unrealistic. And this is what they do there.

00:41:00:19 - 00:41:02:03
Taylor Griggs
But we could never have it over here.

00:41:03:03 - 00:41:44:10
John Simmerman
Yeah, I think leaning into the fact that there's always going to be haters that speak up and they speak up loudly. But I don't think that we we should confuse the resistance that takes place from the status quo of being that that's what the majority of people want necessarily. Oh yeah. And and so when we see, like you mentioned, the resistance to the 15 minute city, that was a bizarre sort of twist of a conspiracy theory that that the 15 minute city is is going to somehow mean that you won't be able to to actually leave.

00:41:44:21 - 00:41:50:12
John Simmerman
It's like it's so ridiculous and that you're just like, okay, got it.

00:41:50:21 - 00:42:14:21
Taylor Griggs
Well, I guess what I'm saying there is that we can't if people really believe that and they're it's very sad. If if that is true, I don't know. It could just be some brief thing on the Internet that's going to pass. But it's because they don't know Like it's it's that is totally understandable because we haven't really been been shown a lot of the alternative.

00:42:14:21 - 00:42:30:12
Taylor Griggs
So instead of listening to Yeah a select group of people who are who are coming up with this ridiculous conspiracy theory, just build stuff that will make their lives better and then over time they'll experience it. We don't have to get the support of every single person.

00:42:30:22 - 00:42:36:21
John Simmerman
And I'm glad you said that. Build stuff that will make lives better and I can't think.

00:42:36:21 - 00:42:38:01
Taylor Griggs
They'll like it eventually.

00:42:38:08 - 00:42:43:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, I can't think of a better thing to to to highlight with seeing that is in this.

00:42:43:15 - 00:42:44:04
Taylor Griggs
Talk a little bit.

00:42:44:04 - 00:43:00:16
John Simmerman
About this series of photos that you have from this article because this is this is actually relevant to building things that will make lives better. And it also is something that Portland has has has recently done. They've built some pretty impressive bridges.

00:43:01:11 - 00:43:27:09
Taylor Griggs
Oh, yeah, for sure. This is a pedestrian bike bridge, although I didn't see anybody biking on it in Bilbao, Spain, which is a very interesting city as an urbanist case study and just a cool place in general. They have the Guggenheim Museum, Bilbao there, and that was like kind of the main impetus for their urban renewal back in the nineties.

00:43:27:09 - 00:43:55:29
Taylor Griggs
And so, yeah, these bridges here, there are three bridges. They're very popular. There's a lot of walking in the city here in Portland. We do have we have the Silicon Crossing and we have the new Blumenauer Bridge, which opens this past summer. It was great to see the both of those are our car free kind of pedestrian and bike bridges and the opening of the Blumenauer Bridge is this huge, huge celebration.

00:43:56:06 - 00:44:19:14
Taylor Griggs
It was like everybody showed it was so cool, like live in a city where people come out for this new bridge bridge opening. And I was very proud of my city for that. And I think people have yeah, it's a beautiful bridge. People really appreciate having this kind of designate that space to make their lives easier. And it it's definitely I definitely am very happy with it.

00:44:19:14 - 00:44:23:09
Taylor Griggs
So I'm glad that we are following suit on things like that.

00:44:24:07 - 00:44:49:25
John Simmerman
Yeah, Yeah. It's a good point. And I think it is important to celebrate those successes and and really draw attention to the fact that these really are critical pieces of infrastructure. And in when you do build a bridge over a barrier and really help open up, you know, the possibilities for many, many people it's something that needs to be acknowledged.

00:44:50:03 - 00:45:12:22
John Simmerman
Yeah, you still need to do those little things right. Getting some of those small details right and and getting the maintenance right. It's it's like you can't just always be focused on the ribbon cutting and the big things. There are those little things that have to also be done. But it is important to acknowledge, you know, building some of those those major, major crossings.

00:45:13:05 - 00:45:34:26
John Simmerman
And we see the same thing here in Austin is that, you know, we've got, you know, a river slash lake that we need to get to the other side to get to downtown and so having a bike, pedestrian bridge or as is the Pflueger bridge, is is tremendous. It's is very empowering for many, many people. And it's an all ages and abilities piece of infrastructure so so incredibly important.

00:45:36:04 - 00:45:55:16
Taylor Griggs
Yeah and it shows that there's the the demand for it I guess as well I believe that yeah. In the build it and they will come ethos as well so when people see wow there's this huge party for this bike and pedestrian bridge, maybe we should check out what that's all about and then you know, they'll start biking elsewhere in the city.

00:45:55:26 - 00:46:15:12
Taylor Griggs
I do think one thing we have here in the US and in North America in general I think should really be celebrated is the advocacy community. And yeah, I think there's a really strong group of advocates throughout the country who are we'll stop at nothing to make our cities better.

00:46:15:12 - 00:46:50:17
John Simmerman
So yeah, well, I'm glad you mentioned that too. You know, another past guest on on the podcast here was Cathy Tuttle, who's very, very involved there locally. And I see that you also have a another article that you just wrote about, you know, shift and needing to, you know, needs a little bit of help and spreading the bike fun love about that and of course shift is is one of the groups that very much involved with the whole pedal palooza group went on to say a few words about about the organization and that event.

00:46:50:17 - 00:47:25:04
Taylor Griggs
Yeah. So pedal palooza is so awesome. I mean this is in the summers in Portland that used to just be every June for a couple of weeks. And then over the years it is extended. And throughout the pandemic, I think starting in 2020, they made it an all summer event because people were doing indoor things. So it was, yeah, throughout now every summer, June, July and August, there's pretty if you look on the shift calendar, there is a bike event, at least five events a day.

00:47:25:04 - 00:47:50:10
Taylor Griggs
People are doing like 500 bike rides. You can go on during the summer and this is happening. So then but the shift calendar maintains itself throughout the year and there are distinct things petal palooza and shifts. Now shift is kind of the place you can go and look or one of the places you can go and find out bike rides in Portland, which is a great city because there are always so many different rides going on.

00:47:50:10 - 00:48:16:02
Taylor Griggs
And even in February when it's raining and it was snowing last night, people are out biking and going on group rides and there's something you can do. So this is what I mean. Throughout the summer, people like who do not typically bike commute in Portland and wouldn't consider themselves members of the bike community I guess which you know, I don't always like to use because I think it should be open to to anybody.

00:48:16:14 - 00:48:39:20
Taylor Griggs
They start to realize, I mean, this is so much fun like I can ride through the streets with with thousands of other people and it's an opportunity to rethink what the streets can be for. And I think hearing from some of my friends who did it for the first time this past summer and and continued to bike afterwards and were really sad when the summer was over because they couldn't ride as much with big groups.

00:48:40:00 - 00:49:10:11
Taylor Griggs
I think it's very cool to see how something like this can shift someone's mindset. So yeah, having a really active advocacy group or multiple. Yeah, group of advocates in a city is very helpful for, for doing this and for doing fun things. It doesn't always have to be big protests. It can really you could change people's minds, I think, a lot by doing having really fun and serious, right?

00:49:11:02 - 00:49:38:05
John Simmerman
Yeah. Well, and getting back to this, this photo of of just normalizing riding a bike, you know, it's it's not an identity. It's not I'm a bike advocate or I'm a cyclist or I'm a bike person. It's like, no, I'm just a normal person who rides a bike and I ride a bike to go have fun. And I'm having fun while I'm riding a bike, but I'm not identifying that way.

00:49:38:05 - 00:49:50:10
John Simmerman
I'm just a normal person riding a bike. And that's where we ultimately need to get to in our society is just that, you know, riding a bike is just as is natural, as walking out the front door.

00:49:51:23 - 00:50:12:05
Taylor Griggs
Yes. I think that it makes sense that people have like distinct issues themselves as advocates because there's often a lot of pressure against them and and things getting in the way from us just all kind of, you know, biking all the time. We're like they do in the Netherlands and in Copenhagen.

00:50:13:01 - 00:50:22:07
John Simmerman
Well, and to be clear, this is the result of fights that were had in, you know, 50 years ago in the early 1970s. Yeah.

00:50:22:20 - 00:50:24:10
Taylor Griggs
So yeah, for sure. Yeah.

00:50:24:24 - 00:50:42:17
John Simmerman
Yeah. So there were those advocacy organizations that that fought hard and, you know, and the Pizza Barn is still continuing to put pressure on the Dutch government to continue making conditions even better. Even as wonderful as they are, they still try to keep making it better and better and better.

00:50:42:26 - 00:51:05:03
Taylor Griggs
So yeah, for sure. But yeah, it's just I like hearing stories about people who who use bikes because they're the most practical way of getting around. I mean, like it's like, I guess I'd consider myself an advocate, they would say. But like, really, I ride my bike because it's fast, it's cheap, It's like, it's fine. I mean, it's not necessary.

00:51:05:03 - 00:51:10:16
Taylor Griggs
It doesn't have to be a huge part of your identity. It's it's a practical means of transportation.

00:51:11:03 - 00:51:24:05
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Well, what final thoughts would you like to leave the audience with? Either you know, something you're working on currently or reflecting back on your trip?

00:51:24:05 - 00:51:57:18
Taylor Griggs
You know, I don't know. I guess I'm working. I'm currently. I mean, I'm always working on something different and nothing huge comes to mind now. But I am always I think the reflection for my trip will continue as I see different things here in Portland and other places in the US and realize in my mind I compare it to something I saw that just kind of works a little bit better for whatever reason in the Netherlands or in Denmark.

00:51:57:26 - 00:52:27:12
Taylor Griggs
And that little reason, it makes it really work and a lot of people bike in the city because of it. And so yeah, over time I just think the reflections will keep coming. I think it's hard to sum up something like this. And I also think that people should be able to experience great bike infrastructure and urban development without having to go on a big trip to Europe to to see it.

00:52:27:12 - 00:52:41:04
Taylor Griggs
So I well, I had a great time and I am really glad that I had the opportunity. I, I don't think everybody needs to go on a big European tour. I hope we can bring bring that to us a little bit more over here.

00:52:41:04 - 00:53:06:05
John Simmerman
So yeah, yeah well in that's part of my mission with the Active Towns channel is to try to produce content to hopefully bring a little bit of those experiences into into your screens and into your ears if you're listening to the podcast. And to be able to do that, to be able to experience that. What were you most surprised with from your experience?

00:53:06:07 - 00:53:13:09
John Simmerman
What was the thing that that shocked to you the most?

00:53:13:09 - 00:53:46:12
Taylor Griggs
I guess I was I was surprised by the fact that there was really no ID as being a cyclist the way that there is here and it was both. I think that people might miss that element of it as positive if it became so common that the thing to do that it was just, Yeah, as natural as driving a car I mean as, as common in the US as it is to drive.

00:53:47:06 - 00:54:21:16
Taylor Griggs
And I think that we would be able to reach a great balance if we could maintain some of that community that comes from advocacy and fighting against the status quo of of car dependency and, and actually getting more people to to ride a bike and use active transportation. So I think that there's a middle ground to be to be found here where we can maintain like these really fun events like pedal palooza and form groups around enjoying riding a bike.

00:54:21:16 - 00:54:44:02
Taylor Griggs
I don't have to think that all has to go away. But I think more importantly is that we create cities that are are really enjoyable for people to live in and, you know, reduce carbon emissions by a lot quickly and there are good and bad things to be learned from from looking at places all over. Yeah.

00:54:44:15 - 00:55:04:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. Well, one of the things that I hear back from because believe it or not, one of my largest audiences for my channel are people tuning in from the Netherlands. And so one of the things that they are most surprised with is how fascinated we are with things that, you know. So they're fascinated that we're fascinated with them.

00:55:05:10 - 00:55:30:22
John Simmerman
And, you know, there's just and so I'm hearing back from them frequently that and they they actually say thank you. They say, you know, you are because tuning in and we're seeing, you know, through your eyes and experiencing this through your eyes and through your content that you're creating, we're realizing and appreciating much more the specialness of what we have.

00:55:31:00 - 00:55:55:07
John Simmerman
Because when you're a fish and water, you don't necessarily appreciate the water that surrounds you. And so that's one of the things that they've been talking about, is that, yeah, I mean, we hadn't realized simply because, again, this is five decades in the result of five decades of work. And so most of these people, you know, may not even realize that this is kind of special.

00:55:55:12 - 00:55:56:11
John Simmerman
What they have there.

00:55:57:19 - 00:56:19:00
Taylor Griggs
Oh, yeah, for sure. I know that that was surprising to me. I guess talking to people and realizing how normal it was to them just because it was so different to me. But yeah, I I'm glad to hear that. I mean, that's that's interesting. And I also know that there as you said there's still groups that are pushing their governments to to do more.

00:56:19:00 - 00:56:34:11
Taylor Griggs
They're not done yet and there's going to be things that they have to push back against in their cities, too. So, yeah, it's not totally perfect and everyone is still working on things.

00:56:34:11 - 00:56:55:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, it's not totally perfect. There's always things that can be improved upon and it's so essential to have people such as yourself who are doing the work that you're doing writing about this. Thank you so very much for doing what you're doing and writing these articles. It means so much to too many of us that you're doing this.

00:56:55:08 - 00:57:12:06
Taylor Griggs
Oh, well, thank you. Well, it's great fun. I appreciate it. I was very honored that people were interested before I went on this trip. I was I didn't know how interested people would be in what I had to say. But it was very nice to hear that people wanted to hear back from me. So I love doing it.

00:57:12:06 - 00:57:27:08
Taylor Griggs
It's great. I feel very lucky to be able to really nerd out about this stuff all the time, and I am fine reading 100 page PDFs about freight plants from time to time because I'm very interested in that, like that kind of thing.

00:57:28:01 - 00:57:33:13
John Simmerman
Well, and we're incredibly lucky to have had you here on the Active Towns podcast. Thank you so very much.

00:57:34:15 - 00:57:36:17
Taylor Griggs
Thank you very much. It was great to talk to you.

00:57:37:14 - 00:57:55:09
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Taylor. If you would please remember, give it a thumbs up, leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on this subscription button down below and ring the notifications bell as well.

00:57:55:09 - 00:58:27:08
John Simmerman
It helps you customize your notification preferences for all this new content coming your way. Until next time. This is John signing off by wishing you much activity, Health and happiness. Cheers and again sending a huge thank you to all my active towns Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patron Buy me a coffee YouTube super thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the active town store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated.

00:58:27:19 - 00:58:35:25
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much.