Transcript exported from the video version of this episode - Note that it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:15:17
Kylie van Dam
Yeah, I bet. Need some zylka hammocks. You are not made of sugar. Yeah. The idea is it effectively that argument says I'm so uncomfortable with being out in the world that I have to wear a coat made of car?

00:00:15:28 - 00:00:17:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:00:17:29 - 00:00:27:15
Kylie van Dam
And we didn't wear coats of cars until 50 years ago. Well, 70 years ago, the all of human history hasn't worn coats of cars.

00:00:27:25 - 00:00:50:14
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman, and that is Kylie van Dam from Houten in the Netherlands. Hilton is the village just outside of Utrecht that I visited on my last visit to the Netherlands. And Kylie actually reached out to me and said, Hey, wonderful that you profiled getting out to Houten and the Village.

00:00:51:00 - 00:01:11:10
John Simmerman
Would you mind hearing from somebody who actually lives there? And I'm like, Heck yeah. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Kylie. I am absolutely delighted to welcome into the Active Towns podcast. Kylie. Kylie, welcome.

00:01:11:10 - 00:01:12:17
Kylie van Dam
Hello, Hello world.

00:01:14:11 - 00:01:21:06
John Simmerman
So Kylie, I love to have my guests just give a quick introduction, so please share with the audience who is Kylie?

00:01:22:17 - 00:01:52:05
Kylie van Dam
A Kylie is an Australian woman, lived in Australia and England for 20 years. Each country over 40 years and now for the last 12 years. We live in the Netherlands and we came here for cycling. We came here for a cycling mentality, we came here for cycling culture and we came here to live in and bring our children up in a society that thinks the way we do, as in people, are more important than, for example, cars.

00:01:52:20 - 00:02:18:28
Kylie van Dam
So the whole thing about slow traffic, about family, about the values of how a human needs to function each day. And in Australia and England, we never really found ways to satisfy those needs. And then we came here and we found a whole country that was doing it and thought we really have to live there. Luckily we could do fantastic.

00:02:19:02 - 00:02:25:10
John Simmerman
That's great. And what was the connection with with the Netherlands? Was it just random or.

00:02:25:29 - 00:02:52:01
Kylie van Dam
No colonial history? So my after, you know, gets a lot of people traveling around the world. Yeah. After the war a lot of Dutch, these left the Netherlands and they went to Australia and they went to South Africa and Canada, I think. And my father in law who turned 80 last year, he was one of their family, was one of the family, left the Hague and they went to Australia.

00:02:52:14 - 00:03:17:13
Kylie van Dam
And because of that then we have Dutch passport in the in the family. Okay. So we always wanted to live in England. My husband and I, we found ourselves there separately, got together, they have blah blah, had children. But as for me, I can only speak for myself as an Australian. I found myself more comfortable in Europe because of the kind of more social way of thinking about things.

00:03:17:19 - 00:03:39:07
Kylie van Dam
Right. And then we realized after a long period of time, having gone to the Netherlands every couple of years or every year for a holiday with the kids and which we want to be here, and we used to get homesick. We used to come back to England and get homesick for the Netherlands, kind of real sadness. And then we realized that we just got to do the right right.

00:03:39:07 - 00:03:44:01
John Simmerman
Wow. Okay. So and how many years ago was that?

00:03:44:17 - 00:04:02:18
Kylie van Dam
That was 12 years ago. 12. So we we shifted back from London to Australia in 98. We didn't like it in Sydney and we shifted back from Sydney to London two and a half years later. Okay, so then we were in London for four years and then Norwich for six years and now here for 12 years. Okay.

00:04:03:05 - 00:04:06:07
John Simmerman
For 12 years. And where is here?

00:04:07:03 - 00:04:41:28
Kylie van Dam
Oh, here, here is oh, a magical place. Here is a place called how ten. How ten is a purpose built cycling of just a light. Hang on a second. How ten is a purpose built cycling city that was developed. The first discussions began in the mid seventies, late seventies. Planning permissions were given is given the zoning permissions. And my house, for example, comes from 1983.

00:04:42:08 - 00:05:03:25
Kylie van Dam
Okay, so it's town that prior to then had a small old village of about 3000 people and the government earmarked it as a part of the country for housing development. And it had to shift up to 50 to 60000 people by 2020. I think that was the plan. So we live in this. I'm looking here, try. I should have found this for you.

00:05:03:25 - 00:05:07:17
Kylie van Dam
Actually, I'm trying to find an illustration of how ten.

00:05:08:12 - 00:05:08:22
John Simmerman
Okay.

00:05:09:09 - 00:05:11:12
Kylie van Dam
Yeah. I don't know if you've got anything.

00:05:11:29 - 00:05:33:02
John Simmerman
But let me show you what I do have. Yes, because you. Because you sent this to me. So I've got a few things here I've got to say. Yeah. So. So this is you know, these are obviously from a book that you have are there and these are some of the, you know, the illustrations and you get an idea.

00:05:33:07 - 00:06:00:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. So I mean, that's exactly right. And, and I've been to Halton a couple of times and in fact that's how you and I got connected was I had actually posted my YouTube video of me riding from Utrecht out to Halton because it's a very, very it's a delightful ride and it's not very far. And how many minutes to take it?

00:06:00:09 - 00:06:17:29
Kylie van Dam
Six days, if you're like me and a little slow sometimes and don't ride enough that kind of distance, which because I live in Halton, so everything is local so I don't ride a lot. And also I've well, we can talk about that later, but I have some long COVID, so I haven't driven properly for a year, but that's usually about a 30 minute ride.

00:06:18:06 - 00:06:37:20
Kylie van Dam
My husband used to do it day in, day out before COVID and he could do it in 25 minutes, but he's got legs up to here, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's really tall, but it's a beautiful ride. And when I saw that film, I just I loved that. Right? I didn't tell you about this, but there's a German television program.

00:06:37:20 - 00:07:02:13
Kylie van Dam
It's on my website, and it was filmed just before COVID, and it's a German film crew came here, and they filmed for two days in Loughton, in Utrecht. And then they filmed that, right? You did with Drone. So. So when you so when you came from Utrecht and then you hit the open fields and you traveled along the train line and then it's kind of really open and rural and then suddenly, bam, you're in Halton.

00:07:02:26 - 00:07:11:28
Kylie van Dam
They filmed that with a drone and I had my little red coat on, a little red Riding hood kind of cycling through the meadows. It's the most beautiful, right?

00:07:12:10 - 00:07:44:13
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And one of the images that that you have when you're making that that ride from Utrecht into out and is you into passing over a major roadway, you know a highway and this is what that kind of looks like as you're, as you're making that route over there. And I comment on that is is that it's it's so wonderful that there is that high quality by walking and biking and then you can arrive by transit.

00:07:44:24 - 00:08:05:18
John Simmerman
But if you're driving and in many of the residents do drive and have cars you do you are on the ring road and then you can access your residence or close to your residence park. And then from that point forward, you're walking and biking. Now, clearly, this just sounds utopian.

00:08:06:19 - 00:08:47:10
Kylie van Dam
I got to tell you, You know, one of the reasons I want to talk about this stuff is because you're absolutely right around the world, this concept feels utopian. And, you know, we we see people responding to it. There are people like you, like bicycle Dutch, like Dutch cycling embassy, like not just bikes who are trying to put this utopia back into the world of possibilities and real options because people are so inundated or so saturated by the idea and situated in the idea that that's something that is not possible for the modern world.

00:08:47:23 - 00:09:23:13
Kylie van Dam
And my whole pitch, it is entirely possible. In fact, it's futuristic. When Robert Dex and his colleagues and the politicians at the time proposed this notion of out and you've nailed on the head there from the very beginning, Robert Dex talks about something called the inversion theory, so that when he and his fellow planners were planning out in de inversion, the notion of the inversion comes from not you begin with the car traffic and then build the facilities and livability around the car traffic, the inversion is that you build the green and the people first.

00:09:24:19 - 00:09:43:15
Kylie van Dam
Last year I was helping Robert to do an interview with a student from the London School of Economics, and she was from Beijing. And you know, her master's. Exactly. That's Greenway. And she was saying to him, How did you keep the car out? And he looked at her and kind of said, I don't understand the question. And she said, Well, how did you stop the car becoming so dominant?

00:09:43:22 - 00:10:01:20
Kylie van Dam
And he said, The car was always dominant. The car the car will always be dominant. So what I did was design it sort of without the car knowing the car would find its way in. And this is this is my pictures. And to state for your listeners and viewers, I am not a planner. I am not a professional.

00:10:01:20 - 00:10:36:14
Kylie van Dam
I do not come from this background whatsoever. I am a person who lives in a space that goes, do I feel human in this and do I not? And from the very beginning it was obvious this layout was a kind of treasure chest of thoughts and values. And at that center of stress, a treasure chest, the very physical building of that treasure chest and values where people and it distilled from the very beginning not just it broke apart from the very beginning.

00:10:36:14 - 00:11:07:00
Kylie van Dam
When you're here, you realize that you as a human being, you your children are so humans. At the age of two, right to 102 were the pivotal points of the design and cars. The notion that the car equals freedom and the self reliability that people think car brings. It wasn't even part of the discussion. And this was this is obvious when you when you physically stand in this environment.

00:11:07:00 - 00:11:26:14
Kylie van Dam
I knew none of this technically, theoretically, I didn't know any of the people who were involved in any of this. All I did was be in that space. So I'm welcome here. And not only am I welcome here as a human being, I'm celebrated here and my children are celebrated, and my 95 year old grandparents are celebrated here.

00:11:27:08 - 00:11:27:28
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah.

00:11:28:08 - 00:12:11:12
Kylie van Dam
And it is so such a powerful experience. And I suppose this is my my biggest thing about wanting to speak to you or anybody else working in this industry is I want people coming here because I know even the most engaged, technically aware person, even your bicycle doctors, even your not just bikes, even you yourself, this theory is not you know, people can think this through and go people people are shouldn't be with cars lalala but it's not until you are physically here and I don't know your experience but I see it again and again and again when people are physically here you see the brain go.

00:12:12:12 - 00:12:14:21
John Simmerman
Oh, oh.

00:12:15:00 - 00:12:39:03
Kylie van Dam
I feel it, I smell it, I hear it, I feel in my shoulders from the stress, danger, the confrontation, agitation that we have when we're living in these car focused societies and an Australian and person in 20 years. I know what that is to come into this space where people are the priority and not whatever the narrative is that makes cars dominant.

00:12:40:02 - 00:12:40:20
Kylie van Dam
Not that.

00:12:41:06 - 00:12:41:28
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah.

00:12:42:17 - 00:13:13:27
Kylie van Dam
So my biggest thing is I want you. I want you, John. Yeah, I want you. And I want anybody else who is either thinking about this or trying to effect change because I know that's the biggest thing, trying to effect change, trying to effect change in the mentality in the Zak guys in the way people thank you need to come here not because I'm saying build Houten because that's not possible is it?

00:13:13:27 - 00:13:40:23
Kylie van Dam
I mean but most most people who are trying to work for planning are trying to retro plan. They're trying to plan in some way that's already existing in some kind of way. They don't have the privilege of starting from scratch, but when they come here, what becomes noticeable is not so much the infrastructure, but more of what the infrastructure does for an individual, for physical, mental health and for the community.

00:13:41:00 - 00:13:59:22
Kylie van Dam
It's very, very powerful. And so when I saw your my ranting here, so when I saw you, I'm I'm quite passionate about this subject. So when I saw your video, that's why I made contact saying, let's talk, because this is what what I've got for you.

00:14:00:03 - 00:14:34:27
John Simmerman
Well, and it's so important, too, because, you know, as as an outsider who was introduced to Halton in 2018 as part of study tour with people for Bikes and representatives from ten other different cities, was there. I was there as an embedded videographer. I was documenting them, experiencing that environment. But it was the first time that I had had the opportunity to visit Halton, and it was it was truly, truly special because it was like, okay, cool.

00:14:35:05 - 00:14:56:24
John Simmerman
We're able to see a relatively new development. And when I say relatively new, you know, I'm not I'm talking about a place that exists now in and it was built within, you know, post-World War two. So we're not talking historic tracks.

00:14:56:24 - 00:14:58:08
Kylie van Dam
This is not an easy or.

00:14:58:09 - 00:15:25:19
John Simmerman
Yes, exactly. It's not a museum. I mean, this was a planned, designed, intentional development. And it was very and that was why it was so cool to be able to have those drawings and be able to see that, you know, sort of that plan that exists there. And I'm pretty sure that this gentleman was the person who we met with and he, you know, was able to, you know, to help us out.

00:15:25:19 - 00:15:32:29
John Simmerman
And I'm in a zoom out so we can get a full picture here. Yeah. So who is this? Who's this guy who we met?

00:15:33:11 - 00:15:54:14
Kylie van Dam
This is our man. This When you said you were here with the tour, I was about to go. I hope you met Andre. So this is Andre Boatman's. He is a planner, and he has worked here in Halton with the Council for a since 2001. I think he also has a dual function as the cycling ambassador for Fountain and he does exactly what you just described.

00:15:54:14 - 00:16:20:09
Kylie van Dam
He facilitates tours here for all sorts of people. Anyone who wants to come and understand how out and technically, historically, physically, he is your man. You contact him through the account and he will counsel, he will organize tours and take you around. He's great. He's passionate. He understands the value of what we have here, and he's passionate about getting the message out across the world.

00:16:20:16 - 00:16:39:28
Kylie van Dam
And I want to pick up on what you said there. This thing about it's postwar. It's not only postwar, it's actually only 50 years old. What we know as how to now. And that is the little map you showed earlier was the northern part of Halton. So that was the first. GROSS What they call the first growth task, the second growth task.

00:16:39:28 - 00:17:00:09
Kylie van Dam
And I presume you rode down there as well was in the south of out in the south of Halton still being built. And what's astounding about that to me and Andre was part of all of that. What's astounding about that to me is that it is plainly obvious that as you go down into the sounds of Halton, it looks like any suburb.

00:17:00:09 - 00:17:28:19
Kylie van Dam
I imagine you might have an America. You know, it's modern, it's got cars, it's got it's houses and it's smart streets, It's modern living. But fundamentally the car does not dominate. And the concept, the primary concepts about people, about children, what people talk about now nostalgically, as in all, remember the days when I had scabs on my knee or remember the days when my mum would call me in the dark to have dinner?

00:17:29:13 - 00:17:56:11
Kylie van Dam
He says. Now there is no nostalgia there. There is no history, there is no museum there. This is being still built now, so that this model that people say cannot function, you can't you can't have a modern society without the car dominating is at worst a lie and at best, at best, a kind of absorbed mistruth. You know.

00:17:56:29 - 00:17:59:17
Kylie van Dam
So Andre, Andre does all of that.

00:18:00:01 - 00:18:31:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And that brings us around to, you know, part of the mistruths in this this sort of giving up to mobility cars as mobility and cars as a way of life and cars as as addiction and dependency gets manifested in a couple of other influences. Now, you mentioned Bicycle Dutch, the wonderful YouTube channel Mark with Mark Valkenburg.

00:18:31:13 - 00:19:04:26
John Simmerman
I probably mispronounces names like Amber. Exactly. And you know, so we've got Bicycle Dutch, we've got not just bikes. We also you mentioned the Dutch Cycling embassy. We also have, you know, Marco and Thalia have the new book movement. And so that's a fabulous, you know, very, very high level, you know, exploration into the challenges that we have to be able to take back our streets and transform our lives.

00:19:05:05 - 00:19:51:19
John Simmerman
And then we also have this beautiful book by my good friends, Melissa and Chris Brundtland, who live right there in Delft. And I think these two books, this one in particular, there were certain chapters in this that really delve into the different types of cities. And in particular, I think you resonated with a couple of different, you know, aspect of this book, But talk a little bit more about gender and the things that, you know, kind of came to life for you and became quite evident not only after you moved to Halton, but also when you had a chance to read this book in the in the light bulb sort of was illuminated for you.

00:19:52:16 - 00:20:13:17
Kylie van Dam
I think this is a stunning book. I I'm absolutely smitten by both of those books. That particular book. What impressed me is we've we've touched upon this already is to be a great theoretician, to understand it, to intellectually comprehend it and go, of course you want space for people. Of course people aren't cause and don't go so fast, of course.

00:20:14:01 - 00:20:46:02
Kylie van Dam
But this book, very bravely and honestly and generously articulates the moments when two really smart professionally at understanding people actually got it. I mean, really got it. And it felt incredibly intimate to me. I have to say. I read sort of everything. Sometimes I had to put it down going, Whoa, with these people living in my underwear, you know, I mean, it was so, so intimately comprehending.

00:20:46:02 - 00:21:10:19
Kylie van Dam
They really got it. I don't know. And I have to have faith that somebody who hasn't had my experiences or our experiences in the transition, who doesn't understand the moment of click from from a from one way of living to another, I have to have faith that whatever they've been able to articulate in the book doesn't just resonate with me, but with other people who haven't had those experiences like I have there.

00:21:10:26 - 00:21:36:24
Kylie van Dam
It's just again and again, I just kept writing to poor Chris going, Oh my God, you nailed it. Oh my God, You you got it. You know, the poor guy, he got spammed. But one of the ones that really resonated was, of course, Melissa talking about the female experience as a as a cyclist. And I had forgotten I had forgotten that in I didn't write until I was 33, I think 33 or so.

00:21:37:02 - 00:22:04:10
Kylie van Dam
And I started to learn to write in London, which is a madness to say. But I had my first baby. I didn't go to the gym. I wanted to be active and I wanted to be outside and I wanted to have my body back as my own. So I thought I, well, give a bike a try. And I started doing it in London, and then we shifted out to Norwich and then we could have, which is 2 hours north and just less manic than London, and then we could have a trailer with the baby in and we could ride everywhere.

00:22:04:21 - 00:22:21:24
Kylie van Dam
And I just wanted to write because it was then my time and I didn't want my babies. That's Oh, this my train. One of the trailers. That's us clearing out the shed when we when we cleaned up the shed and I went to the tip. You call it the rescue center or something? I'm not sure what in America it's called.

00:22:22:03 - 00:22:45:26
Kylie van Dam
And I didn't have a car. So that's how we did it. But the notion that as a woman, this thing about protection, I don't know what it is, the wearing the metal coat of the car to protect you and children. And what it does is dislocate you from society. It also dislocates you from your own body and suddenly you have to go and buy time at the gym to be physically active.

00:22:45:26 - 00:23:08:27
Kylie van Dam
And that just made absolutely no sense to me. I wanted to be in my body moving. I wanted my kids out in the world, seeing the world, smelling it, fixed it, smelling it and feeling it. This is when we shifted to the Netherlands. So we've got the Rastas who is ten months old, then nobody. And then Abby just turned six and Mia was seven and a half.

00:23:08:27 - 00:23:26:26
Kylie van Dam
Yeah, and they loved it. There's another shot there. I don't know if you're going to use it. And there's another shot there. Yeah, well, that's. Now I'm older, so now. And this is my favorite shot. You talk to my medico about car and the thing about what the car promises. You know, those adverts we see on television? We.

00:23:26:26 - 00:23:48:09
Kylie van Dam
It's late night and there's some sexy men. Women have always got kids in the car, but some sexy man driving through the city. Nobody around his free look at the face, you know, happy. The look on those children's faces. That is the face that they try to sell in those car adverts and I love that you see that on babies everywhere.

00:23:48:17 - 00:24:12:20
Kylie van Dam
Babies in in in trailers, which is what my children had in England, but babies in trailers on bike seats, They sing. They've got the wind in their face. La, la la la la la la. Like this. It's an utter, utter joy. And going back to Norwich, I wanted that for my kids and for myself. So I started writing and I became known as the cycling mummy.

00:24:13:01 - 00:24:18:19
Kylie van Dam
I mean, what? And there's a reason I'd forgotten that because that doesn't exist here.

00:24:20:24 - 00:24:40:21
Kylie van Dam
I mean, what would be the equivalent here? I haven't got a clue. I mean, even if, even if men here ride the women's bike, you know where we come from? Where I come from, there would have been a women's bike because it just has the bike seats. It did have pink carriers. I don't know what it would define as female.

00:24:40:22 - 00:24:42:00
Kylie van Dam
That doesn't exist here.

00:24:42:12 - 00:24:42:21
John Simmerman
Right?

00:24:43:14 - 00:25:04:13
Kylie van Dam
You've got a bike on which you can get your kids to and from school until they're old enough to go and do it themselves. Simple. Yeah. So when Melissa said that in her book and I thought, Oh, whoa, yeah, that was bad. Yeah. You know, and I know that a lot of your viewers and listeners are probably thinking, What is she talking about?

00:25:04:23 - 00:25:12:01
Kylie van Dam
Of course. So why is it doesn't have to be. And that's not theory. That's reality in this country.

00:25:12:10 - 00:25:41:16
John Simmerman
Yeah. And, you know, it's I think it's so incredibly empowering for children to be able to have that level of mobility and and develop these sense of confidence and efficacy, self efficacy. But then it also extends out to our older generations as well. Having that ability, having mobility is so incredibly important.

00:25:42:17 - 00:26:12:03
Kylie van Dam
To, you know, I really don't like social structures that separate people in that way and prioritize one over the other so that there is the norm, for example, car drivers and then there are others and there are different levels of others. There are little children, there are medium sized children, there are older people, there are people with disabilities, there are immigrants.

00:26:12:03 - 00:26:44:05
Kylie van Dam
So suddenly all these these titles and these levels become something that is not a vehicle value to whatever the dominant is in this. Well, I when I says did country, I live in Hamilton, I don't live in this country. I live in where I live. And here you have no distinction that what you have is people moving from A to B, people enjoying being active, people enjoying being independent, people talking to each other, people in control of their day.

00:26:45:02 - 00:27:08:04
Kylie van Dam
I love this photograph because I think that many people around the world, for them, this is surprising to see this this lady, I don't know her personally. I've spoken to a couple of times and she also she works for an organization, requires her to shift furniture from place to place. I think it might be a charity of something.

00:27:08:15 - 00:27:36:18
Kylie van Dam
And she has a normal bike with a trailer on the back, quite a low slung trailer, and she'll be pulling couches or tables or whatever. Nobody bats an eyelid because it's just somebody doing something. Sometimes I see on the threads that occur at the discussions that occur, you know, by the Dutch cycling embassy will put something up and and there will be a photo of this kind of thing.

00:27:37:02 - 00:27:55:09
Kylie van Dam
And I mean, I don't need to tell you and a lot of people who are interested in your content that this will draw out comments such as, oh, she doesn't have a helmet. Oh, she's going to get hurt on those skates. Oh, what if that old lady has a heart attack? Oh, what if I'm a 17 year olds are not fit enough to pedal up.

00:27:55:10 - 00:28:20:22
Kylie van Dam
I mean, it's just rubbish. And I'm sorry to dismiss. I know, I know. This is a bad statement. Sorry to dismiss the way people respond to that, but their response is that they can't see it because it's not what they know and therefore they dismiss it. And the fact that this whole country functions in this way to many people is not reality.

00:28:20:22 - 00:28:25:18
Kylie van Dam
And this photo is a really great example of it's just moving.

00:28:26:03 - 00:28:26:11
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:28:27:02 - 00:28:44:15
Kylie van Dam
It's it's just people moving at people space people. Pace. Sorry. You stick a car in there and it's dangerous. You remove a car or a vehicle, it speed a great big heavy metal thing. It's not dangerous anymore.

00:28:46:07 - 00:29:17:03
John Simmerman
I want to I want to take us back to this image because we didn't really get to chat about it. But I think it's powerful because this this is actually the downtown station area. This is this the centrum, the center of the city, the village itself. And so, you know, when we look at some of the other images of the greenery and like you said, it starts with the green first and then works its way in literally everything.

00:29:17:03 - 00:29:44:19
John Simmerman
The entire village is within easy biking distance in many cases, most cases even walking distance to this location. And this is where the train this is where, you know, transit drops you off. Talk a little bit about the, you know, this area and how magical it is to be able to have that combination of, you know, there are single family houses even in that area.

00:29:45:09 - 00:29:50:12
John Simmerman
But you also are very, very close to all of this.

00:29:50:12 - 00:30:19:13
Kylie van Dam
I am aware that we are having this conversation in the shadow of the explosion caused by this term. The 15 minute city. I'm aware that that has allowed some people to express opinions that say this 15 minute city is the instrument of all that is bad and evil. What I just so.

00:30:22:01 - 00:30:51:12
John Simmerman
It's it's we're both flabbergasted because it's actually so ridiculous that you're just what I understand why I understand the context of of of how that came out and it came out of the U.K. And I understand the context of it because of the the belief that there could be a controlling mechanism to it. And so we don't need to get into the nitty gritty of that conspiracy theory.

00:30:51:12 - 00:31:03:01
John Simmerman
But the reality of what this means for you and your family is that you are able to live that concept of a five minute city attending a 15 minute city.

00:31:03:08 - 00:31:23:18
Kylie van Dam
My son is 13. He came he goes to school in town. Actually, that building on the right that you see there behind the children's wagon, his school is behind there. And for him to ride home from there is a one and a half minute ride for his 13 year old. This is this is not because we're rich. And I want to point that out.

00:31:23:28 - 00:31:50:06
Kylie van Dam
This is not because we are rich and we are buying a privileged way of life. This is because this urban design allows everybody of every economic capacity to live this kind of life. And it means that my son is independent and has been for who is 13 now. So I mean, yeah. Yes. And he will return by himself.

00:31:50:06 - 00:32:14:20
Kylie van Dam
He then dropped his schoolbag and then he took himself to the orthodontist, which is another minute behind that building and then shoot. He needed opposite there. He could go to his doctor, always in all within a five minute cycle of this house. Yeah. So that's our main bike path. And that's the beautiful tower from the council house. It has Karellen You know, the musical bells.

00:32:15:04 - 00:32:37:19
Kylie van Dam
They'll play ABBA or Fiddler on the Roof or all sorts of weird songs, you know, every hour you just go, Hang on. Am I listening to Hello? Bye. Lionel Richie. What is this? It's 11:00. So the 15 minute city and. And Robert DAX, the designer, has talked about the 15 minute city. The fact that he his design, he wanted it so that from north to south, the most you had to ride was 15 minutes.

00:32:38:00 - 00:32:57:08
Kylie van Dam
And that was a decision made upon research at the time saying that people will right for 15 minutes, but more than that, they'll get in the car. So then if you keep everything accessible, it doesn't mean you have to exit a padlocked gate to go into some foreign community. On the other side of your 50 minutes. It just means everything is accessible to you.

00:32:57:11 - 00:33:11:25
Kylie van Dam
If within 15 minutes. Yeah, it's the most logical community based structure I have ever lived in. And far from feeling claustrophobic, it's absolutely liberating.

00:33:12:13 - 00:33:24:02
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you mentioned two things. You mentioned, you know, that you're you're not necessarily of this in a massively wealthy, privileged group. What do you do for a living?

00:33:24:19 - 00:33:46:23
Kylie van Dam
Oh, that's a good point. Thank you for asking. I am a musical language educator. So what does that mean? It means that I teach little Dutch kids from age four up to about age 12. Sometimes I teach them English through music and I write the music that I teach them through. So this is my website and we put this up on the whiteboard.

00:33:46:23 - 00:34:07:12
Kylie van Dam
I have YouTube, so I create pages on my website with links and I teach via their boards and then they can go home and sing it with Mommy and Daddy. I've had videos of Mommy, Daddy playing from this website in the car where they drive to wherever and they have to sing. I've got a musubi on my bottom all the way down to the south of France.

00:34:07:20 - 00:34:29:24
Kylie van Dam
So that's what I do. I also, as a as a singer songwriter, I use to create content for adult performances. And so I also develop, you know, adult sort of semi cabaret stuff. Not sexy, sexy cabaret, but just storytelling cabaret. So, you know, while I've had long COVID and I say that because that's my job as a teacher, but I've not taught for a year because of long COVID.

00:34:29:24 - 00:34:33:11
Kylie van Dam
But when I do teach, that's that's what I'm doing.

00:34:33:18 - 00:35:13:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And here's your YouTube channel and that is accessible right from the website there. And so folks, you can you can pop on over there and check that out. And and the other neat thing about your your website here too is that you also have your passion in your non-music stuff. And so ID like you said earlier, you're very, very passionate about where you're living but you also are have taken the time to, you know, put posts out about, you know, other things that really interest you, including exciting cycling recommendations.

00:35:13:29 - 00:35:15:27
John Simmerman
So talk a little bit more about all this.

00:35:16:11 - 00:35:38:10
Kylie van Dam
Okay. I don't know. When it was 16, 17, 18, I ended up being able to write an article in The Guardian about how, oh, it was as a result, they had a section called from Family Friendly Cities, and there was a lot of nostalgia and a lot of, Oh, wouldn't it be fantastic? And it doesn't exist in and, and that and I just thought, Please people, this is crazy.

00:35:38:22 - 00:36:02:07
Kylie van Dam
So I contacted them with actually a video from Mark Zuckerberg from Bicycle Dot and we ended up creating an article about it since that article which you can still view called Cycle Heaven, you can still see the article. And as a result of that article, I've been able to have contact with different people in cycling industry and contribute in different ways, like filming with the German crew for two days, the BBC.

00:36:02:07 - 00:36:16:26
Kylie van Dam
We had an interview on radio for this with and if I do anything and obviously we've just had the pandemic for some time and now I've been ill. But if we do things, I will park that stuff there and then people can go and have a look, see what they're like.

00:36:17:15 - 00:36:42:29
John Simmerman
Yeah. And we can see, you know, some of some of your work right here. And I just I find it so incredibly refreshing that a that we were able to to strike up this conversation, you know, over the Internet based on the video that I that I shot and being able to and I started to say this earlier is that, you know, I'm just I'm an outsider.

00:36:42:29 - 00:37:25:23
John Simmerman
I'm somebody who has have visited multiple times now, but I'm still somebody from the outside being fascinated by the fact that Hilton exists and was planned and is designed. It's so special to be able to talk with somebody who lives there and really understands and appreciates how special it is, because it's another thing. There's many times I'm having these discussions with Duchess that are like, Oh my gosh, I'm, you know, grateful for your channel for Jason's channel, not just bikes, because we're we're like becoming aware how special this is, You know, how special it is because you.

00:37:26:01 - 00:38:02:18
Kylie van Dam
Know how where. Yeah, absolutely. I know how special it is. And I want to bring in to the table as a tool. I want how to for me, how John has some weight to carry and it has weight to carry in your hands and in bicycle touch hands and in not just bike hands and in street films hands and in all sorts of people's hands, because either you either you guys are reaching the people who are trying to make changes politicians, influencers, people working in organizations, groups of influence to governments, etc..

00:38:03:09 - 00:38:29:14
Kylie van Dam
Or we get those government officials here, you know, is a way I think how to has a lot of weight to carry as a as a precedent and as an absolute example that blows out of the water any of the language about it's not possible in today's world that is wrong. And when you come out and you go, it's entirely possible.

00:38:29:22 - 00:38:42:28
Kylie van Dam
And not only is entirely actually, it's what we need for the future. And on that, I want to I want to that's the image you have there. Oops. Where am I? Can you see that?

00:38:42:28 - 00:38:50:08
John Simmerman
There you go. Yeah. And I've got that image, actually. So let's let's pull that up because they've got the photo of the right here. Yeah.

00:38:50:16 - 00:39:06:13
Kylie van Dam
Okay. So one of the things we want to talk to you about, I want to talk to about how to then I wanted to have a chat in a play. That's gorgeous. But this is one of the big things I want to talk to you about. This is a book called Hit Run on My Arms, and it means the Green embraced.

00:39:07:09 - 00:39:33:14
Kylie van Dam
And you can see named Robert Derricks, he is one of the pivotal designers of how to sew the ring road. He's the the greenery is he's the inversion theory is he's the people based mentality is he's he's been involved in the project of how to for 40 years. And when he retired in 2010 12 I think he closed his business 2012 as a planner.

00:39:34:00 - 00:40:02:26
Kylie van Dam
In 2010, he retired from the Technical University of Delft and upon retirement he effectively wrote down a document about Hamilton and about his experience of Hamilton and everything that went into creating this place. That's what this book is. This is gorgeous. Those illustrations, you have the content and in discussions with him last year, I said, this has got to be in English.

00:40:03:15 - 00:40:38:14
Kylie van Dam
And he said to me, okay. So I said, Absolutely, we need this as a road map for not only influencers but planners, for students, for academics, for politicians, for everybody. We need them to be stimuli vetted by Hamilton itself. So it's just another way to tickle people. But it's also a really great way to show the process discussions, theory, technicality and the way that those are all still usable for today.

00:40:39:00 - 00:41:06:28
Kylie van Dam
As I said earlier, this is not a museum. It's just a living city. Duchess and Hamilton do not need you or anybody else coming here to study, just living their lives. I know England, Australia, America, India, China, everywhere they need. HAMILTON And documents such as. He had an awesome aunt. All of this stuff contributes to changing of the mindset.

00:41:07:28 - 00:41:40:00
Kylie van Dam
So we are currently working on this. Andre about two months and Robert and myself are currently trying to get this published in English and it won't be exactly everything this year because some of it know the rest of the world doesn't need. But there's a lot of really great, interesting, exciting stuff and beautiful images. You know, everywhere. We've been lucky enough to have a work placement student from Germany working with us on this project for the last six months and he has just finished his undergrad in Germany.

00:41:40:00 - 00:42:19:10
Kylie van Dam
And I found him just kind of like staring at the illustrations and just trying to figure stuff out. And as a student, he was really interested in this. So this is a big project we have. One of the reasons I want to tell you this is that if there are any expressions of interest in the project is interest as far as or we'd love to buy it or Oh wow, I know a great publisher or wow, I know where to get some money to help you do that, please contact Andre Boatman's Counsel because because we would we want this to be as rich a document as possible, and we want it to travel as far

00:42:19:10 - 00:42:22:05
Kylie van Dam
and to land in as many places as possible.

00:42:22:16 - 00:43:03:24
John Simmerman
It's interesting, too, because, you know, starting with green parts first was is something that rang a bell for me and was quite familiar because it was something that Victor Dover, a good friend of mine from the South Miami area, said over and over and over again when I interviewed him designing the city by starting with the green parts is especially important because you don't just start with the real estate and you start with the parks and open space and the preserved areas or the forested slopes or the green tree lined streets and trails and greenways.

00:43:04:10 - 00:43:37:05
John Simmerman
And if you do that, then great addresses naturally shake out. And then with the street design that includes everything from the greenery around it, street trees and, and everything else. Yeah, yeah. And parks as well, you know, in making sure that you are able to for instance one of the big pushes right now in North America is ensuring that every household is within a ten minute walk to a green space and a park.

00:43:37:28 - 00:43:38:26
John Simmerman
A trail.

00:43:38:28 - 00:43:39:29
Kylie van Dam
Yeah, absolutely.

00:43:40:10 - 00:43:40:18
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:43:40:27 - 00:43:46:25
Kylie van Dam
It's all in here, John. It's all in here that that's pivotal to the design process.

00:43:47:03 - 00:43:47:18
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:47:27 - 00:43:48:21
Kylie van Dam
Absolutely.

00:43:49:09 - 00:44:35:16
John Simmerman
And the other thing that is just, you know, so incredibly important when you look at this design is that we are looking at the fact that still in North America and around the world, there's still plenty of greenfield developments. There's still communities that are being that are being designed from the ground up, but they're being designed to with the expectation that literally a motor vehicle is going to be able to drive everywhere, have complete access, you know, throughout the village, throughout the development, throughout the city, and right up to the doorstep of each household.

00:44:35:16 - 00:45:06:08
John Simmerman
And it doesn't have to be that way. And that's the beautiful thing that Howden, you know, shows is that you can still have that mobility, that auto mobility, and you can still get to easy access to that highway that we saw earlier, easy access to places where, you know, transit can't get you to. And so it's not anti-caa, but at the same time, it's it's very much pro-people, especially in the core.

00:45:06:20 - 00:45:30:15
Kylie van Dam
And this is this is really something, you know, to to make sure when I'm presenting, when people are presenting Halton as a viable option for how to live, people in contemporary societies have bought so deeply into the notion that the car is the only way to give you autonomy and to look at how to and say, you know, we all we all have cars.

00:45:30:18 - 00:45:49:18
Kylie van Dam
Very few of us don't have cars. Some people even have two cars. What we do is we just use less so. So when we're going from our house to the shop, we don't get in a car. What we do is we get on a bike because we're moving our body and we can talk to the neighbors. Our children can move around us.

00:45:50:04 - 00:46:18:11
Kylie van Dam
It's it just means that we're minimizing the use of the car and the impact of the car on ourselves and on our society and of course, on our environment. And people are probably saying, what do you mean on a society? KILEY Well, okay, this is a really great image. This is something called a singing bike path. So it was just, you know, people realized there was discussions about when you're cycling, people feel so good.

00:46:18:15 - 00:46:37:13
Kylie van Dam
Lots of people want to sing, but of course, they feel self-conscious about that. And and someone's coming the other direction. And so it's a bit weird. So councils have put up these signs called Singing Bike Path. On this bike path just have a good thing. I might my girlfriend, you can see the lady in the front there on the three wheeler.

00:46:37:13 - 00:47:03:10
Kylie van Dam
I don't know her, but my girlfriend is behind her in her wheelchair. She loves to sing, so she is in this shot just as happy as a pig in let's call it excrement. And that the thing about the social, you can see these people are smiling and laughing because they're together, they're talking, they're playing, they're sharing. Okay. This is a particular promotional event for singing Bike Path.

00:47:03:10 - 00:47:24:03
Kylie van Dam
But when you go outside of our house, you say hi to your neighbors. In fact, my brother in law calls the type of Dutch bike like these people are on now. They call them he calls them the hoi bikes, because in Dutch to say hi, you say, ahoy on these bikes, you go past somebody. You don't just say hi, you go hi.

00:47:24:03 - 00:47:51:27
Kylie van Dam
Hi. You know, you go quickly and answer it because it means that social bonds are made. It means you get your happy chemicals from talking to people you're out under in light, whatever that might be today. Not so much some air in your lungs and some social engagement to the most basic things human needs. Humans need that we often outsource for a gym or a club or an event.

00:47:51:27 - 00:47:55:17
Kylie van Dam
You don't need to do that. Just go out on your bike.

00:47:56:03 - 00:48:15:00
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And that also was in Chris. And Melissa's book is The Social City Is is the fact that, you know, you do have those little micro moments of connectivity with the people around you, which you just don't get when you are trapped in her medically sealed metal box.

00:48:15:22 - 00:48:24:18
Kylie van Dam
And you're right to use the word micro, but they're actually and there are micro engagements, but actually bigger engagements as well.

00:48:24:24 - 00:48:39:00
John Simmerman
Sure. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because literally they could be just even supermicro, like literally body language. Yep. A flash going here, but it can be even more like you said. You know, actually outwardly you saying, you know, boy.

00:48:40:07 - 00:48:59:17
Kylie van Dam
So so when we lived in Sydney I learned to drive in London, which is a pretty crazy place to drive in Camden, especially on a Saturday. The silly man took me there for like my second lesson in Camden. If people don't know, it's madness. It's a it's a street market field where they have all the world's populations. And I had to drive down it, so I thought I was a pretty good driver.

00:48:59:17 - 00:49:17:12
Kylie van Dam
By the time I left there. Then we went to live in Sydney and we had the Sydney Harbor Bridge. This is death. This thing is scary as anything. And after two and a half years of driving that last day, I got out of that car after driving, driving into Sydney Harbor Bridge. I thought, I never ever want to do that again.

00:49:17:29 - 00:49:40:01
Kylie van Dam
And what I found in Sydney that was different to London. In London, everyone of course knows the rules. We follow the law, but if somebody makes a mistake, you make eye contact, you have little discussion together and someone goes, Yeah, all right, come on. Then you go, Oh, sorry about that. And you crack on in Sydney. No, you know the rules.

00:49:40:01 - 00:50:03:22
Kylie van Dam
Everyone's got to do what they got to do. And if you make a mistake, I'm going to. Why my window now? Scream at you and abuse you here in Halton. What you do, you get on your bike and you ride around each other. And if you're in a really busy place, like I'm I'm sure you know those areas, like there's a there's a main intersection in Utrecht with an miffy lights.

00:50:03:22 - 00:50:26:00
Kylie van Dam
I don't know if you know that there's a zebra crossing that's multicolored. It is the busiest intersection in the Netherlands for cycles, and yet people manage it because they communicate with each other. So. So when we were in Sydney and I told my dad, he's a gorgeous man, by the way, and I told him about this, this incident, for example, with the car, and he's like, Yeah, well if anyone knows the rules.

00:50:26:11 - 00:50:40:25
Kylie van Dam
And I thought, and that's why I don't want to live. I want to live where I can have a conversation with somebody and not negotiate and get my own way. Just have a conversation and that's what happens here.

00:50:42:08 - 00:50:42:17
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:50:42:22 - 00:51:04:21
Kylie van Dam
Yeah. And, and at the other thing I was going to say this. Sorry, I just remember what I want to say is with long COVID, you know, obviously different. I'm sure there are many listeners of yours who have similar experiences, but in the case of long COVID in this built environment to begin with, of course I was too ill to leave the house and then I would leave the house for five minute walks or something.

00:51:05:02 - 00:51:29:02
Kylie van Dam
I could do all of that, even though my system was overwhelmed because I wasn't in them. I wasn't in a motorway, you know, I could go out quietly and I could talk to people. And as I've got stronger, I can go out further. I go out every single day. And one of the things about long COVID is, is mentally it's extremely challenging because you're you're basically locked up in your body.

00:51:29:02 - 00:51:53:15
Kylie van Dam
And for somebody like me, I don't know if you can tell has a bit of life, energy and me being locked up in a body is not necessarily exactly so this is where I walk. I walk around where you wrote you were writing on the left hand side of that image every day as somebody who is recovering from a very challenging illness, I go outside and I'm physically active, I'm safe, I'm I'm not overstimulated.

00:51:53:28 - 00:52:17:21
Kylie van Dam
But I also speak to people, many of whom I know, but many of whom I don't know. And every day I speak to people about Long-covid and I hear their stories, and every day I probably hear of 80 to 85% of the people I speak to know somebody who has long-covid they have experienced this. They look at me in the eyes, they understand what I'm going through, and they say to me, Oh, have you got this?

00:52:17:21 - 00:52:54:26
Kylie van Dam
Have you got that? Yes. My brother in law had this. Now, psychologically, as somebody recovering from an illness, the fact that this infrastructure allows me to go outside, be well, be safe and interact with people has had a massive impact on both my physical and mental recovery in a way that it's had. I cannot even imagine in a society where I went from one house in a car to a shopping mall where I didn't know anybody to back in a car that I don't think might be functioning as well as I am now.

00:52:55:13 - 00:53:26:24
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Now, earlier you mentioned Utrecht and in some of the, you know, the most busy cycling intersection area and the aspect of, of Utrecht that is incredibly famous right now is of course the canal that was previously a, a canal, then a motorway, then back to a canal now. And you sent along a little video here of one of my favorite you know, views.

00:53:27:12 - 00:53:43:28
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I want to play this a little bit. Alter your well, keep the sound low. There's just some background noise there, but I'll let you narrate this. Why did you send this along and why is this a special visual that you wanted to share with everybody?

00:53:44:14 - 00:54:03:25
Kylie van Dam
Yeah, because, you know, we this is lunchtime. There are lots of Dutch is out for the walks from from the offices and takes because we hear again and again and again that things are not possible. We hear again and again that that's just the way it is. This is modern world. You don't want to go backwards. Oh, it's a sign of the times.

00:54:03:25 - 00:54:25:21
Kylie van Dam
You know. What are you going to do, turn communist? I don't know. It's it's crazy. And this building project just indicated to me that I was in country where adults were in power. You know, the adults were running the show. And what adults said was, hey, we're going to do this because it's postwar and this is modern life.

00:54:25:21 - 00:54:46:16
Kylie van Dam
And so they did they filled this canal in and they turned it into a road. Multi-lane Well, that's my daughter, Abby. She let me feel that was all. I had permission. And so they did that. They decided to fill that in. And then I think it was late nineties or so, they realized, Oh, actually this is not good.

00:54:46:24 - 00:54:54:29
Kylie van Dam
And instead of going, Oh, well then we need more waybill, they said, Oh, we've got that wrong, let's fix it. And they took it out.

00:54:55:19 - 00:54:55:27
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:54:57:00 - 00:55:10:27
Kylie van Dam
That's what I find that beautiful faith giving just, just gorgeous to see that people in power would say yeah we got that wrong benefit it.

00:55:12:22 - 00:55:43:14
John Simmerman
It is something I talk about all the time. It's like a the Dutch are not afraid to try something, be innovative and at the same time they're like wow you know that didn't, that didn't work. And even if it's an embarrassing major blunder that cost millions and millions of euros as it did in that case, they're like, you know, no, I mean, the the cost to society is too high.

00:55:43:22 - 00:55:52:03
John Simmerman
The return on investment is too great. We need to turn this back into and create a more people oriented place and they did it.

00:55:53:27 - 00:56:24:14
Kylie van Dam
We hear again and again the Netherlands is only got cycling because it's flat. Oh, they just they just grew up like that. Oh, la la la la la la. What this event was an example of to me was the continuation of discussion. The Netherlands is not a cycling town because postwar somebody had a bright idea it had so much power, took over the discussion, created cycling, everybody kind of got into it and we're still sitting in a museum now.

00:56:24:17 - 00:56:35:03
Kylie van Dam
No, this a constant discussion. One of the films that I showed you together, we cycle. Sant Have you seen it?

00:56:35:11 - 00:56:36:21
John Simmerman
Oh yeah, multiple times.

00:56:37:16 - 00:57:01:01
Kylie van Dam
I did the translation of the voiceover for that one. I was really happy, but I had I adore they wrote it. I just translated it but I adore that film and I adore that film because it puts the kibosh on all those silly arguments and because what it says is, is there's no magic here. There are no there's there's nothing that isn't possible going on.

00:57:01:10 - 00:57:31:28
Kylie van Dam
It is constant discussion. And when you constantly discuss reasonable, honestly and openly and with respect for people and their experiences, when you when you put all that stuff together, the answer usually comes out cycling. The answer usually comes out, reduce the dominance of the car and replace people in the space. And it's not a historical decision, it's a contemporary process.

00:57:32:25 - 00:57:38:09
Kylie van Dam
And that to me was was that fantastic? Call it out to now.

00:57:38:21 - 00:58:00:22
John Simmerman
Yeah, absolutely. And I love this shot here. This is just a great day at the market and it's because that's the other thing that you hear is like, oh you know, it's it's impossible to do because of this or that or we, you know, we've got hills or it's too hot or it's too cold or it's too wet.

00:58:01:11 - 00:58:18:07
John Simmerman
It's, you know, the one of my favorite, you know, little sayings that that the Dutch say over and over and over again is, you know, there's no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing. You're not made of sugar, You're not going to dissolve. You're not going to melt.

00:58:19:13 - 00:58:37:15
Kylie van Dam
Yeah. Just do it. Yeah, I bet. Need some zilker hammocks. You are not made of sugar. Yeah. The idea is you're effectively that argument says I'm so uncomfortable with being out in the world that I have to wear a coat made of car. Yeah.

00:58:37:28 - 00:58:38:26
John Simmerman
Yeah, exactly.

00:58:39:06 - 00:58:48:22
Kylie van Dam
And we didn't wear coats of cars until 50 years ago. Well, 70 years. The whole of human history hasn't worn coats of cars.

00:58:48:28 - 00:59:01:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, literally, the automobile showed up on the scene about 120 ago. It wasn't until, you know, literally 80 years ago that it began commonplace that every household had at least one.

00:59:02:15 - 00:59:05:15
Kylie van Dam
Yeah, and look where that's got us. It's not working.

00:59:05:27 - 00:59:27:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. So too, closes out. There's a series of photos here that that will end with that same shot that we had of the the the bridge going over the highway. But tell us why you included this series of of three photos. Because it was a special event.

00:59:28:09 - 00:59:56:02
Kylie van Dam
Oh, yeah. So this was a cycling festival, that house and held in 20 1819 somewhere in there. And it was designed to talk to Andre about this the other day and exactly what was it. And he was basically saying we the proposal for how to and as I spoke earlier on, our discussion was to go from an old town of 3000 up to between 50 and 60,000 and that year we reached a population of 50,000 people.

00:59:56:18 - 01:00:32:00
Kylie van Dam
Yeah. And so what they did to celebrate sort of these tablets plays of how ten of 50 some people that had a cycling festival. And one of the things they did was close off a section of the ring road and we haven't talked a lot about the ring road. The ring road is the main road for cars. You can travel up to 70 kilometers an hour and it sits just outside, a kind of raised barrier of earth, and it wobbles its way around Halton and it is the main road that people travel when they come into their little borough.

01:00:32:05 - 01:00:53:03
Kylie van Dam
So you go into your borough via the ring road. If you want to go into the little borough next door, you go back out onto the ring road along and back into your borough. It's to discourage, discourage the presence and dominance of cars within the kind of living space. It works very well, but it does mean that it's a space for lots of cars traveling at 70 kilometers an hour.

01:00:53:28 - 01:01:03:07
Kylie van Dam
So as part of that celebration, I've just seen guys on the multi bike at the back, They were hilarious. That is not normal. Well, that is not normal, actually. Your life just letting you know.

01:01:03:14 - 01:01:07:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. I mean, if you if if we zoom in, you'll see Oh yeah we've got a tube of their.

01:01:09:01 - 01:01:28:01
Kylie van Dam
Everyday with glorious. But what this was, was a celebration. Oh that's myself and my son coming out of one of the little boroughs onto the main ring road. So we were allowed as celebrates of the festival, the cycling festival 50,000 population. We were allowed to ride on part of that ring road. It was a really interesting experience. I loved doing.

01:01:28:01 - 01:01:35:22
Kylie van Dam
It was beautiful. You saw people of all ages, all abilities, wheelchairs. Obviously my son there is on his what do you call that? What do you call that?

01:01:35:29 - 01:01:39:03
John Simmerman
He does this like a razor push scooter. Yeah.

01:01:39:12 - 01:02:12:17
Kylie van Dam
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was on that You've got people on skates back there. I know there was some ladies in cycling wheelchair next to each other. They were cycling some of those shots. You see dads and moms, you know, everyone together. So it was lovely. But it really made me realize that although that was fun, it meant nothing compared to when during the Olympics in Sydney, they closed the expressway over the where the ferries are to be allowed to humanize that space.

01:02:12:23 - 01:02:43:00
Kylie van Dam
Right. That was really powerful and it made me realize that here in Halton, that statement doesn't need to be made because we've solved those issues in Halton. I do not feel repressed or held back by the infrastructure in Halton in Sydney I did. And so to walk that expressway, you know, and so they closed off a lot of the streets during the Olympics and it was like my husband and I were just say, Gosh, this feels like Europe, you know, this is what we want.

01:02:44:05 - 01:02:45:29
Kylie van Dam
So it was a fantastic day.

01:02:46:21 - 01:03:42:05
John Simmerman
Yeah. And and that's so interesting that you have that that perspective, too, because the open streets events that take place around the globe, the cycle of year, you know, shutting down these major streets and major drags, it is special for for our communities because you know that we don't have the quote unquote, the network, the all ages and abilities facilities that really empower everyone from the youngest to the eldest to be able to get around the ability for somebody in a mobility device, in a in a wheelchair to have complete reign of their city without having to get into a motor vehicle, a van or some sort of transport device, know they can literally get

01:03:42:05 - 01:03:43:26
John Simmerman
there under their own steam.

01:03:44:12 - 01:04:10:20
Kylie van Dam
They could just be part of society. And we are so used to thinking of people who want to fit in or people have to be made space for this urban design. Here it isn't. It's just society. Yeah, it's just the rich fabric of society. You mentioned something about children and independents, etc. You know, we talk about that in a slightly throwaway way.

01:04:10:20 - 01:04:31:07
Kylie van Dam
We kind of go, Oh, it's great that kids are independent and autonomous, etc., but really the implications of that are really quite enormous. You know, when a young a two year old and apparently this doesn't happen, I can tell you it does every single day when a two year old steps onto what we call in English a walking bike, you know, there's balanced bikes.

01:04:31:27 - 01:05:01:03
Kylie van Dam
They are instantly, instantly having lessons, experiences which teach them about, yes, there's my Rastas. He very, very early on. So I think he's like two and a half three that he very, very early on understood his own body. He understood his own body in physical space. And he very early on learned lessons about social convention, about communications, about his values in a given space.

01:05:02:01 - 01:05:30:26
Kylie van Dam
That's about autonomy, that's about respect for self and other that's about physical bits joining up in the brains. That's about muscles growing. That's about a future citizen understanding their place physically and mentally in the world. And, you know, people might say, Oh, that's a bit heavy hand. Kylie It's not. It's absolutely when you see a child doing that, you see I'm boss of the world.

01:05:31:16 - 01:05:31:25
John Simmerman
Yeah.

01:05:32:07 - 01:05:52:09
Kylie van Dam
You know, how often do you see a kid in the back of a car being dragged to sports events or wherever, thinking I'm boss of the world? They're thinking I feel brain dead and I'm frustrated. And so I go to a screen, you know, don't get me wrong, my step, that little boy, they turned into a massive screen, but he now plays and screens for hours.

01:05:52:09 - 01:06:17:18
Kylie van Dam
And then we go outside and chuck him outside. Goodbye. He can go for 4 hours. No idea where he is. He's is safe. Safe as anything. Yeah. And and active and busy. So I really, really think that that is a change in mindset that to happen and is facilitated particularly by this design. But I don't think people understand that enough yet.

01:06:17:18 - 01:06:24:06
Kylie van Dam
I don't think we understand it psychologically. We understand it technically, but we don't actually understand it yet.

01:06:24:16 - 01:06:53:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, well, we're so divorced. We're so divorced from that now. If we are in a car dominant society, in a car dependent community, we're divorced from that. We don't we don't have that context. I mean, the fact that, you know, during that ride that I that I took from we tracked out to and I commented the fact that, you know, it was right about the time that that many of the children were getting out of school.

01:06:53:02 - 01:07:17:12
John Simmerman
And it was just like this constant number, you know, that that mobility, that independence, the ability to get to places under their own steam that's completely foreign in, you know, car dependent society. I'm going to pull up the map, Google Maps, and we'll close out with this because you were just talking about the, you know, that concept of the ring roads.

01:07:17:21 - 01:07:44:08
John Simmerman
And so when we pull out a bit here, we've got you know, we've got our major waterway, the canal going down here to the south, and we've got the A12 up up here where all we also see here the farmland, which was also featured in my in my is, is that, you know, there's still preserved working farms, you know, through you know, just just the exterior of that.

01:07:44:14 - 01:08:02:01
John Simmerman
But when we zoom in a little bit, we can see that yeah, there's we've got a circular road that, you know, goes right around here on the edge, the round big right there. And is that what you mean when you're saying the ring road.

01:08:02:21 - 01:08:26:16
Kylie van Dam
Yes. That's, that's No, no, no, no. That's the ring road. So that ring road is the shape A for, for the, for the first growth tasks of the North and the second growth task, the South which I said was still being built and that creates shape of eight now. And you can see there's a little green road in the middle with it, with eight is pinched in at the sides and that's called well the copper link the adjoining road.

01:08:26:28 - 01:08:32:11
Kylie van Dam
So it's that ring road you can do kind of just a swirly h shape all the way around.

01:08:32:17 - 01:08:48:27
John Simmerman
Yeah. Thank you for that. I thought it would be good because you were talking about it and I, I couldn't quite pull up the map quickly enough. I wish I would have had it ready to go because I think that's a that's a really good visual is to be able to to kind of see exactly what we were talking about there.

01:08:49:11 - 01:09:10:26
Kylie van Dam
Yeah. And we also saw that that it's that it's in between the two motorways, the a27 and the A12. So you can see, oh, you know, this notion that oh it's a cycling city, it's, oh it's, you know, some weird little town on the side that you know isn't part of real life just, it's not true. This thing is attached to motorways in the center of the country.

01:09:10:26 - 01:09:12:09
Kylie van Dam
That can take you anywhere.

01:09:12:20 - 01:09:13:16
John Simmerman
Yeah.

01:09:13:16 - 01:09:25:18
Kylie van Dam
Or you catch the train. So you have a train in the south. It costs them, and you have a train in the north, which you showed us with that bridge. And that takes you via three stops into the center. It takes 10 minutes.

01:09:26:02 - 01:09:30:04
John Simmerman
Yeah, 10 minutes. And then once you're there anywhere.

01:09:32:10 - 01:09:36:01
Kylie van Dam
Amsterdam from my house is, I think, a 50 minute door to door journey.

01:09:36:12 - 01:09:44:02
John Simmerman
Right. Final, final thoughts that you'd like to leave the audience with.

01:09:44:02 - 01:10:09:16
Kylie van Dam
Don't believe them when they say it's not possible. It's entirely possible. And it is entirely possible. It's here right now. It's functioning highly successfully. And as far as I'm concerned, it's the future. So if you're interested in this, come here. Context. I'm sorry. About months and or may I'll have a cup of tea and talk to people quite happily.

01:10:10:20 - 01:10:22:07
Kylie van Dam
And of course, got the project for proof of arms, the green embrace. Hopefully that will come out in English. So my my final words are don't believe it is possible.

01:10:22:07 - 01:10:36:01
John Simmerman
It is indeed. And I'll have all your contact information in the show notes to the podcast as well as the video description below. Kylie, This has been such an honor and pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

01:10:36:22 - 01:10:38:25
Kylie van Dam
I feel so lucky. Thank you.

01:10:39:08 - 01:11:00:18
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning. Hope you enjoyed this episode with Kylie van Dam and if you did, please give the thumbs up and leave a comment demo. Let let us know if you would be interested in living in a more walkable and bikeable place where the car isn't really dominant on a day to day basis in the streets, right out in front of your home.

01:11:01:08 - 01:11:20:22
John Simmerman
And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring the notifications bell to customize your notification in preferences. I will be back next week with another episode. But before I let you go, just a quick reminder, if you're enjoying this content, please consider supporting the channel.

01:11:20:22 - 01:11:42:18
John Simmerman
You can make a donation to the nonprofit. You can become a patron on my Patreon account and become one of my active towns ambassadors. Or you can make a purchase from the active town store. Just go to out of town storage and you can access all of those channels, all of those links, all of those pages, you know what I mean?

01:11:44:00 - 01:12:08:04
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much. We'll see you next time. This is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers. And again, sending a huge thank you to all my active town's ambassadors supporting the channel on Patron. Buy me a coffee YouTube super. Thanks as well as. Making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the active town store every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated.

01:12:08:16 - 01:12:15:19
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much much.