Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:16:00
Veronica Davis
And I made one of a very controversial statement. I was like, Sometimes there's no such. Sometimes you never get consensus, right? And I think it's like hard because every planner is like, no, we've been taught like now we're going to get everybody in the room and we're going to do all this great engagement and we're going to get there.

00:00:16:03 - 00:00:21:15
Veronica Davis
You're not going to get there. They're going to be timed. You are just not going to get there. And it's okay.

00:00:21:17 - 00:00:48:12
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman and that is Veronica Davis, author of the new book Inclusive Transport Nation. We're going to be diving into the details of her book and talking a little bit about her journey as to how she got into transportation. It's a great one, but it's a long one. So let's jump right into it with Veronica Davis.

00:00:48:14 - 00:00:52:22
John Simmerman
Veronica. O. Davis, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:00:52:24 - 00:00:56:26
Veronica Davis
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation with you.

00:00:56:29 - 00:01:03:27
John Simmerman
So, Veronica, I love giving my guests just an opportunity to introduce themselves. So who is Veronica?

00:01:03:29 - 00:01:06:08
Veronica Davis
Who is Veronica? That's like real philosophical.

00:01:06:15 - 00:01:08:03
John Simmerman
Exactly.

00:01:08:05 - 00:01:31:27
Veronica Davis
So, Veronica Davis, I am a very proud New Jerseyan. That's who I was raised. I was born in the D.C. region, okay? But I was raised in New Jersey. I went to the University of Maryland. So my coffee mug is going to be the University of Maryland today. Yeah, there you go. Proud parents who lost a lost lost football recently.

00:01:31:27 - 00:02:01:06
Veronica Davis
But we're doing pretty good. Yeah. And then I went to Cornell for grad school. So I am a engineering nerd, transportation nerd. I love all things transportation. On my honeymoon, I was taking pictures of the transportation infrastructure in the Cayman Islands because it's just that much of a passion. Currently, I'm the director of transportation and drainage operations for the City of Houston, but this interview will just reflect my personal views and not the city of Houston.

00:02:01:14 - 00:02:19:09
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. We're not going to we're not going to go into all that that that works stuff so much. I mean, it'll it'll permeate through because as I think you you do a great job. We're going to talk a lot about your new book you talk about in your book that the stuff is like you were born into this.

00:02:19:12 - 00:02:43:21
Veronica Davis
Literally born into it. So my my grandfather owned Lincoln Cab Company in Raleigh, North Carolina, and operated it up until his death when I was about ten years old or so. And then that's when they sold the the family sold the company. My dad is a civil engineer. We moved to New Jersey because he went to go work for the port Authority of New York.

00:02:43:21 - 00:03:09:21
Veronica Davis
In New Jersey. He worked for CSX and then he was the executive director of the American Society of Civil Engineers. And then my mom worked for New York City Transit Authority. So I was little and I was almost born in the US D.O.T. building. So my dad worked for the Urban Mass Transit Administration, and my mom went into labor waiting for my dad to come out of a meeting at the US dot building.

00:03:09:24 - 00:03:16:02
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. But literally born into it.

00:03:16:05 - 00:03:17:12
John Simmerman
So I mean, but that's that's.

00:03:17:12 - 00:03:46:04
John Simmerman
An interesting thing too. You know, oftentimes, you know, when your parents are sort of involved in something, you don't necessarily he headed in that direction and especially a subject as is challenging and difficult as engineering is. You know it's like it's not like, oh, yeah, no, I just fell into the family business. And it I mean, you can't do the family business, but at the same time that that required a heck of a lot of studying too.

00:03:46:06 - 00:03:53:09
John Simmerman
Was that sort of a happenstance sort of thing, I mean, or did you grow up dreaming of being an engineer?

00:03:53:16 - 00:04:15:11
Veronica Davis
Yeah, no, not at all. So my sister, I have an older sister and so she ended up being a doctor. And so she's now at the University of Maryland's medical school. She's got like five titles, so please don't make me say them right. Like, she's doing some really awesome stuff in the medical world. But, you know, growing up, I actually didn't know what I wanted to do.

00:04:15:13 - 00:04:34:15
Veronica Davis
My sister knew from a very young age she wanted to be a doctor. I just kind of lived life. But, you know, as I look back, I think the signs were there and I shared this a little bit in my book of I had a Lionel train set and I used to go in the basement of my house and make the train set.

00:04:34:15 - 00:04:57:12
Veronica Davis
And then I had the little people and I remember, like the little Fisher-Price people, they were about this big. But I had the house, an airport, a parking garage, a farm, a school. And I would, you know, get everything up around my Lionel train set. And I had my My Little Pony world. I had GI Joe, which were the defenders of the entire community.

00:04:57:14 - 00:05:21:28
Veronica Davis
I had Barbie World. And so if you think about it, it's the elements of urban planning or city planning, regional planning, right? I was there and I knew that you had to have a train to move goods and people. So I think pieces of it were there. I was always curious. When I was eight, my family gave me a radio and I took it apart because I wanted to see what was inside.

00:05:22:00 - 00:05:26:14
Veronica Davis
I couldn't put it back together, but you know.

00:05:26:16 - 00:05:29:15
John Simmerman
But that but there's a curiosity there. Yeah.

00:05:29:17 - 00:05:53:20
Veronica Davis
It's a curiosity. And I give my parents a lot of credit, which is how they ended up with two daughters in the stem. It they very much gave us microscopes, chemistry set growing up, and they really fostered our curiosity. And so for my sister, it ended up on the medical side. And for me, I really just was good at I don't know, I really I didn't really have direction.

00:05:53:20 - 00:06:20:15
Veronica Davis
Even as I applied to school and as a high school student, I remember I was like, All right, I guess I'll put engineering. But I didn't really know. And then when I started at Maryland, I was actually engineering undecided. And I and funny story, I declared civil engineering because I walked out of a chemistry exam three weeks into the semester and I was like, What can I do that I never have to take another chemistry class after I get through this class.

00:06:20:17 - 00:06:23:06
Veronica Davis
And that's how I declared civil that day.

00:06:23:08 - 00:06:49:12
John Simmerman
Yeah, Yeah, well, I can relate. I was down the path that your sister was on in pre-med, and so I was heavy into the organic chemistry and all that fun stuff. And yeah, it's I could see doing that, especially now that I spend my time, you know, like you thinking about how our built environment, you know, really impacts behavior and the way that we live our lives.

00:06:49:15 - 00:07:13:13
John Simmerman
And it's interesting too, because I thought about this, as you were just mentioning, about that environment that your parents had set up. There's a lot of analogies there to like how we build our communities and how that helps, you know, you know, set the stage for, you know, how we interact with our with our environment is so incredibly important.

00:07:13:15 - 00:07:38:02
Veronica Davis
Absolutely. And I think it's one of those things that as a child, you just don't know. It's a profession. Like you don't realize that there is somebody who is planning the future of your city, your community. And so, again, it was just a me as a child playing in the basement without much guidance and still getting to a level of community planning and community organization.

00:07:38:04 - 00:08:02:28
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Now you hinted a little bit there about the book, so let's just pop right on over to the title page here. And Inclusive Transportation, a manifesto for Repairing Divided Communities. Talk a little bit about the origin story of wanting to dive into and go through the the arduous task of actually writing a book.

00:08:03:00 - 00:08:27:24
Veronica Davis
So I'm going to say this There's always the origin story. The original original origin story is it's the initial seed that gets planted and takes time to Germany and grow. When I was 22, I worked for New York City Department of Transportation. I was a graduate intern in the Office of Private Ferry Operations. And one day I just didn't really have a lot to do as an intern.

00:08:27:27 - 00:08:50:17
Veronica Davis
And I wrote this Life strategic plan at 22 years old, and I want to financial vitality. I wanted, you know, professional acumen. And I wrote this one objective statement that I wanted to be a world renowned transportation expert, and in that I had different ways that I was going to achieve that. I was going to get my professional engineering license.

00:08:50:20 - 00:09:10:15
Veronica Davis
I was going to testify at Congress, because I feel like if you testify at Congress, then you're an expert. And I've done that twice now, and I also had in there, I was going to write these books and I was going to be of different genres and I was going to be an author. And that was it didn't think anything of it.

00:09:10:17 - 00:09:41:04
Veronica Davis
And that was back in the summer of 2002. That's how long ago that was. And so that's just kind of the seed of a thought that just kind of lays there. Fast forward to 2018. I was on a panel about a project I was doing in West Philadelphia, and it was on just basis and it was looking at not just who is using public spaces, but who is not using the public space and why and how do you begin to have justice in public spaces.

00:09:41:06 - 00:10:05:04
Veronica Davis
And there's things of formal policing, informal policing, things that make people feel unwelcomed or in a space. And I was presenting on that in Philadelphia with my client and one of the people on the the task force that we had created and said, this woman walks up to me after and she's like, Wow, that was amazing. Have you ever thought about writing a book?

00:10:05:04 - 00:10:31:03
Veronica Davis
And I was like, you know, back in 2002. But she handed me her card and her name was Courtney Link's, and she was with Island Press. And we got back to D.C. and had an initial meeting and I was like, Oh, okay, let me kind of sort this out and figure this out. And it took about two years to get to a an approved outline because it was time.

00:10:31:03 - 00:10:50:27
Veronica Davis
It was what did I want to be in this book? What did I want the users, the reader to feel? What did I want the reader to do? And we went through several iterations. We went through six different iterations of an outline to get to the book, and then that's when I got my contract with Island Press to start writing.

00:10:51:00 - 00:11:25:05
Veronica Davis
And it took about two years to write the book. And then some of it was going back and listening to all the keynotes and old presentations that I've given and fleshing out some of those ideas. And then some of it was, I think, the delicate balance of being able to and I talk a little bit about this in the preface of when do I need to say something clearly and when do I need to dance, and when do I need to introduce new art and when do I need to just put something out there and let the reader figure it out?

00:11:25:07 - 00:11:48:12
Veronica Davis
And in my initial editor, so Courtney was my initial editor and we danced for about 18 months to get the book where, you know, it would need to be content wise. And then I went through my my final stages of editing with the other editors. And so that was the process. That's the origin story and the lot of tears and whining along the way.

00:11:48:14 - 00:11:53:16
John Simmerman
Maybe that's why I'm avoiding writing my book.

00:11:53:19 - 00:11:56:22
Veronica Davis
Got it. You know, I'll tell you this. It's the tears of.

00:11:56:22 - 00:11:57:21
John Simmerman
The.

00:11:57:23 - 00:12:15:08
Veronica Davis
It's the tears in the lion end. But what I also found was just doing something every day. So it got to a point where there were times I just couldn't write anything and nothing was coming. And then there were days I was like, All right, let me just sit in front of my laptop for one hour and I will type anything that comes to my mind.

00:12:15:10 - 00:12:36:12
Veronica Davis
And it was in it, and I literally have some, you know, documents that are just random one lines here and there. And it was just like a pouring of like everything I just wanted. And I got those one liners in. And a lot of them have been very impactful. And the things that people are quoting. But it's because I was able to get them in and deviating from the plan.

00:12:36:12 - 00:12:56:24
Veronica Davis
So even as you start writing, you know, I had my outline of what I was going to write about and I didn't write in order, believe it or not. So I did write chapter one first and I wrote chapter four second, and Chapter four was actually my favorite chapter to write. And it was and you can probably tell, I'm sure as you read, you could probably kind of pick up on some of the things.

00:12:56:24 - 00:13:17:22
Veronica Davis
But Chapter four is my absolute favorite, Chapter eight two and three, where the hardest because I was trying to separate what goes into what goes in three. And so in the editing process, those are probably the most heavily edited, not necessarily grammar, but just the content of what goes where so that it can flow. Chapter six I rewrote.

00:13:17:22 - 00:13:39:11
Veronica Davis
So I had a different plan for Chapter six, and then I moved to Texas and I was like, Nope, I was like Kermit the Frog. Like, you know that Kermit the Frog meme and is like, hands are going. And so I had to like, truly, truly rewrite chapter six. And that is, you know, chapter six is really my call to action for people in the industry.

00:13:39:11 - 00:14:03:09
Veronica Davis
That's my chapter. I wrote specifically for The Advocate, even though they're not the primary audience, I still wrote Chapter six specifically for them, and that obviously the preface is one of the last things I wrote. So I didn't write everything in order. Yeah, and, you know, it all came together. And again, I just, you know, every day I'm like, if I could just write for 30 minutes, an hour, whatever comes in my head, and I'll figure out where it goes.

00:14:03:16 - 00:14:13:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And not to pass over the fabulous foreword by the Amazing Tamika Butler. So that's fantastic.

00:14:13:09 - 00:14:36:11
Veronica Davis
And Tamika is part of my heart and brain trust. I have multiple group chats with her and heard, you know, a really fantastic person. Tamika did read one of their versions of my book and gave me really great feedback inside. I made some additional edits based on some of her feedback, and then I'm really honored that Tamika wrote my forward.

00:14:36:13 - 00:14:57:14
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic. Now I'm honing in on chapter four. The reason why I jumped over to this visual here is you mentioned chapter four as being your favorite chapter, and you went right to that, but you didn't say exactly what the chapter was. So now we can see that our power, influence and the complexity of people, that there's a lot of juicy stuff there.

00:14:57:17 - 00:15:19:08
Veronica Davis
It was a lot. It was it was, you know, the basis of that chapter. So speaking of Tamika, Tamika and I and several others had an opportunity to go to Salsburg for Salsburg Global Seminar. So for any of your listeners, I highly recommend if you're able to have an opportunity to go to Salsburg for the Global Seminar, really try.

00:15:19:08 - 00:15:53:01
Veronica Davis
And so what it is, it is just a meeting of the minds where they just bring people together from all over the world for about a week to just grapple with the topic. I feel like our topic was something about built environment and build infrastructure and public health. I don't really remember the exact title, but part of it is just bringing people, people from the different European countries South Africa, Brazil, New Zealand, China, and so it's literally bringing the people in the world together and then within the different professions.

00:15:53:01 - 00:16:13:02
Veronica Davis
So you had people there who are doctors, public health people, a community activist. I was I'm an engineer, people on the planning side. And so it was a melding of all of these people to grapple with this topic. And one of the things that we wrote coming out of this was power and privilege and just talking about what that means.

00:16:13:02 - 00:16:42:23
Veronica Davis
And so Chapter four basically takes that initial framework that we came up with with Salsburg Global Seminar, and then fleshing it out and making it specific and relevant to the transportation world. And with that, you know, I talked about the different stakeholders, the people in power, the naysayers, the champions, and then the silently suffering and the complexity of all of that, because there are going to be naysayers that they just don't want the project.

00:16:42:23 - 00:17:09:22
Veronica Davis
And it really doesn't mean that there is no concession other than don't do it. But then there are some people who might be naysayers, but they actually have some legitimate concerns. And, you know, how do you begin to parse that that stuff out? And so I just really talk about that. I share in that chapter my experience learning that the DC DC has library police and I find that out the hard way because they shut down a public meeting.

00:17:09:25 - 00:17:32:07
Veronica Davis
But, you know, just really talking about some of my experiences dealing with people and having that understanding and really walking away with at the end of the day, we have to focus on the silently suffering. We can, we can jibber jabber, jibber jabber, jibber jabber and the same people are still dying on our roads every day. The same people are impacted on the roads every day.

00:17:32:14 - 00:17:52:24
Veronica Davis
The same kids have asthma because of transportation every day. So it's really like taking that once you're done all that that that jibber jabber, you know, at the end of the day, we have to focus on the silently suffering and it's not that they don't care about the project, they are just literally trying to survive day to day.

00:17:52:26 - 00:18:04:25
Veronica Davis
And it's working multiple jobs. It's working shifts. It is just trying to put food on the table. And so when that's your day to day, going to a public meeting is a luxury that they just don't have.

00:18:04:27 - 00:18:26:12
John Simmerman
Right? Right. And I love that term, too. The silently suffering, because it's so acutely encapsulates the challenge here. And one of the other things that you mention is your book is that, you know, we have this challenge that we are trying to change a system that inherently doesn't want to change that.

00:18:26:12 - 00:18:49:19
Veronica Davis
And we're trying to change a system that isn't necessarily designed to get you the best decision. And I talked about this recently in governing of, you know, if you look about if you look at a highway project, a highway project, there's a benefit cost analysis, Sure. But the budget is not really all that high for a highway project.

00:18:49:19 - 00:19:11:05
Veronica Davis
And it's not that hard to have the benefits. Right. You just have to have the number of people driving, the number of trucks you count, the commerce that's moving and all of those things. But then when you look at public transit and the bar that a public transit system has to meet to get funding, right, there has to be a financial plan.

00:19:11:05 - 00:19:38:14
Veronica Davis
There's got to be a ridership plan. And it's all of these things that are unknown. And I think the other challenge with transit, it's there's a lot of intrinsic values that's hard to capture upfront, right? If you look at any major city that has put in transit in the last 20, 30 years, you see the economic impact of having a transit station.

00:19:38:21 - 00:19:56:01
Veronica Davis
And I'll just take it back to D.C. real quick. And that's how I spent most of my adult life. You know, I remember in college when the Columbia Heights metro station was it was was built. I remember it was built and it was open. And there was there were things there. I'm never going to say there was nothing there.

00:19:56:01 - 00:20:21:21
Veronica Davis
But there were there were there was, you know, strip malls, lower density development. Now, when you look at that particular intersection where there's a transit station, the amount of development that that is there, there's a target. You know, there's it's high rise buildings. And even from a pedestrian perspective, that is probably one of the heaviest pedestrian corridors. So we know that transit has the ability to do these things.

00:20:21:24 - 00:20:45:28
Veronica Davis
But the problem is it takes time and no one really looks at things over time and the impact over time because there's an impatience when it comes to public transit. There's a perception that because I'm paying to use transit, it should break even and it should not cost. Meanwhile, we all know and I'm sure active towns is, you know, several conversations around this.

00:20:46:00 - 00:21:16:15
Veronica Davis
We know that our usage of highways, we are not paying the two cost and the subsidies that go into highways. And so intrinsically, it's hard to get to a good decision. And because of that, and even when you look at funding active transportation, but even if you look at funding, walking and biking, it's very hard when you look at the benefit cost analysis because it might be $5 million to install a sidewalk and it's like, Oh, but you're only going to benefit a couple of hundred people.

00:21:16:15 - 00:21:31:09
Veronica Davis
And it's like, so I think it's just there are things that are there and we just have to begin to rethink some of those. And I hope that as we march towards the next highway bill, we can start to grapple with some of that.

00:21:31:11 - 00:21:52:28
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. You put a lot in there that I'd like to unpack. And additionally I'm looking at chapter three here is, you know, should there be a quote unquote war on cars and I've had Doug Gordon on a couple of times on the podcast and we've talked a little bit about the the tongue in cheek nature of of where the war on cars came from as a name of the podcast.

00:21:53:01 - 00:22:12:16
John Simmerman
But it's interesting, too, because even just in the last couple of weeks, we've seen in the U.K., you know, the prime minister, you know, basically, you know, actually putting this in a manifesto of his own. I mean, did you just like have to pinch yourself and say, what the hell? Just happened?

00:22:12:18 - 00:22:34:07
Veronica Davis
And, you know, I'll say this, If you had asked me before I moved to Texas, I probably would have been like, unbelievable, this guy. Yeah, You know, but living in Texas, I'm like, I can't believe it. You know, I, you know, this is it on like, you know, place in life.

00:22:34:07 - 00:22:36:02
John Simmerman
Yes, yes.

00:22:36:04 - 00:22:36:13
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:22:36:19 - 00:22:53:11
Veronica Davis
I don't know that the the pits of humanity. I don't really don't know what to call next door. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh you know, there's the original intent and then there's what's happening. But what has been amazing to me is to see people put in writing, yelling at parents, like, Why are you walking with your child to the park?

00:22:53:11 - 00:23:21:21
Veronica Davis
Just drive your child to the park. It's safer. And so there is this kind of push pole. And I was at an event and one of the the candidate said, Oh, Houston's never going to be a walking or biking town. It's a car town. And it's like that. And that's where I think you get to see the silently suffering because, you know, people will say no one's biking in like places like Houston or Arizona or others because it's too hot.

00:23:21:24 - 00:23:43:03
Veronica Davis
And it's like, it doesn't matter how hot it is. There are people that are doing it because they have no other choice. And that's that's typically who the silently suffering. When someone says no on bikes, that is a lie. And I have been I worked in many communities up and down the East Coast, the Midwest, the South. And yes, there are people biking.

00:23:43:03 - 00:24:05:21
Veronica Davis
Even when you don't think they're biking, they are biking because they don't have any other choice. You don't see them because they're not biking while you're driving to work. So you drive to work in your little hour, in that little peak hour in the morning, and you drive home in the peak hour in the afternoon. But you have no idea what's happening in the middle of the day because you're sitting in an office all day.

00:24:05:23 - 00:24:32:17
Veronica Davis
You have no idea what's happening at night because you're putting food on the table for your family or putting the kids to bed or reading a book or doing whatever you do at night. And so while you're sleeping, there's people moving around while you are at work having your 18th meeting. That could have been an email. You know, there are people who are moving around and going to work, and that's a mindset we're pushing against and and it becomes a challenge.

00:24:32:17 - 00:24:58:11
Veronica Davis
And so am I surprised? No, I think it's the thing that we face and even in even working in cities that have been very dense, like Philadelphia, like D.C., where you think people should be like, oh yeah, you know, gung ho, because we have a legacy transit system, it's hard. They're trying to take away a parking space, go to D.C. and try to take away one parking space and let me see what happens to be a fly on the wall.

00:24:58:14 - 00:25:19:12
Veronica Davis
And so there is this like sense of we've equated a car with freedom. A car has become our identity. And that's partly because of, you know, the marketing campaigns, you know, the Lexus. You know, every Christmas there's that Lexus commercial with the Lexus in the big old bowl on the top. And it's like, tell tell her you love her.

00:25:19:15 - 00:25:43:19
Veronica Davis
And there's a lot of ways to tell somebody you love them without having to buy them. Alexis And and the reality is, I was reading an article recently, and I wish I could remember where it was, but it was talking about not even just the expense of ownership, but even in the used car market, it is still you're still looking at, you know, $400 a month just to pay the car.

00:25:43:19 - 00:25:53:11
Veronica Davis
No, on a used car. I was like, jeez, I don't have those problems. But, you know, I just can't even imagine I'm going to write both of our cars till the wheels fall off.

00:25:53:13 - 00:26:27:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's interesting, too, because we didn't really address exactly what the prime Minister said and did in his manifesto, because, honestly, it's kind of like almost mind bogglingly silly. But really what it was is sort of a it's sort of like this knee jerk reaction that takes place. It's human nature, really. And when the status quo feels threatened, it feels to them like they're being discriminated against.

00:26:27:04 - 00:26:35:28
John Simmerman
You know, And and I that definitely came out in his little like bullet points. Oh, my gosh, this is classic human behavior reaction.

00:26:36:00 - 00:27:05:13
Veronica Davis
Absolutely. And I and I talk a little bit about that in the introduction of, you know, for every action, there's an equal opposite reaction. And I'm not going to say this, too. There's also the part, the quiet part out loud. And that's the lobbying that happens, right, where when you really know about how the sausage gets made, whether it's this country or other countries, you know, there's there's people who spend a lot of money for lobbyists to make sure that they can and continue to earn money and continue to be able to sell cars.

00:27:05:21 - 00:27:21:00
Veronica Davis
So there's that piece of it, too, that I don't want it to get lost. It's more than just the marketing that happens during the Super Bowl. You know, it really is the systems in place and it's kind of some of the I'll say, I don't want to get into too deep into it, but it's some of the challenges of capitalism.

00:27:21:00 - 00:27:57:29
Veronica Davis
Capitalism is I want to continue to earn money and so I will find ways to continue to earn money and I will rig the system. So I continue to earn money. But that's a separate podcast, you know, But for that, for our purposes, it really isn't surprising to me. One of the things and part of the reason why I wrote Chapter six, which is the task ahead, is that it is very easy in this country, and I'm not going to get into the partizan ness of the politics, but it's very easy to think of, look at it at a state and be like, Oh Lord, I'm going to Florida and Texas, going to Texas.

00:27:58:01 - 00:28:29:06
Veronica Davis
And I think what people are missing is they're the test states, right? The thing about Florida and the thing about Texas, it's demographically they're pretty representative of the United States in terms of just the different ethnicities, languages. They're very similar in that way. California to some extent as well. And so what happens is they become testbeds. And you can see it with different issues that have occurred over the last couple of years.

00:28:29:08 - 00:28:53:20
Veronica Davis
It's a test of how far can I push and what can I get away with. And so I wrote Chapter six because I don't think a lot of people know that in the last Texas legislature there was a bill introduced to prevent road diets and it was very specific and it was about the freedom to move and, you know, don't impinge on my freedom, you know, and all this like kind of language.

00:28:53:20 - 00:29:16:27
Veronica Davis
And it's like you can you can still move. And it fortunately didn't move forward. But for the Texas legislature, only meets for a narrow window of time. So at some point they have to prioritize the ridiculousness of it all. But I will say, while it was introduced by one political party, I actually think it could have gotten bipartisan support.

00:29:17:00 - 00:29:39:23
Veronica Davis
And so I wrote Chapter six, because for the advocacy group, they can sometimes get so bogged down by one project and hold on so tightly to one project that you can miss the bigger picture. And if we're not paying attention, if we're not communicating across state, this is something that the legislation that could easily start to pop up in other states.

00:29:40:00 - 00:30:09:03
Veronica Davis
And I think as you look at the Prime Minister, as we go back to kind of full stack, full circle where that question started, you can see that there is something that speaks to people, right? It's all about emotion, right? It's egos, egos, logos, pathos. I remember that from my English one on one. And so the pathos of it, you know, you getting into the emotion of it all and it's like, yeah, I sit in traffic and it's easy to blame everyone else for why you're sitting in traffic.

00:30:09:06 - 00:30:28:06
Veronica Davis
Meanwhile, you are the traffic. You are literally part of the traffic, you know, and it's easy to blame. Oh, you took away a lane, you took something, you're taking it away from me. And so now I'm in more traffic than what I would have been. And I don't want to make any other choices. And now I feel like you're engineering me to make a different decision.

00:30:28:06 - 00:30:52:28
Veronica Davis
And I don't want to make any other decision. And I think especially this sentiment, I feel this is just kind of me, my observation. I feel like the whole vaccine and COVID is like made this social engineering like more of a thing. It's like, Oh, you're trying to social engineer me into doing something. And it's like, No, it's not about that.

00:30:52:28 - 00:31:15:06
Veronica Davis
You can can, you can continue to drive. No one is taking away that option. It's you're trying to give options to other people who want other options, and especially for young people, sorry, and especially for young people, because the data is there. These young people don't want to drive. I don't really they're not getting their driver's license. They are choosing not to drive.

00:31:15:06 - 00:31:35:23
Veronica Davis
And I even share in the book, you know, I got my driver's license two day after my birthday and that 48 hours was a killer having to wait 48 hours to get my driver's license. But this this young, they just don't want to drive. And you're talking well into their twenties without having a driver's license, let alone anything else.

00:31:35:23 - 00:31:56:04
Veronica Davis
And if you think about most college towns, you know, even I went as I mentioned, I went to Ithaca, New York. Ithaca, New York is in the middle of nowhere. It is literally in the middle of nowhere. It is 30 strong country, Miles, you know, from the interstate. And yet it is probably one of the most walkable communities.

00:31:56:04 - 00:32:16:03
Veronica Davis
I could go a week without even moving my car because of the transit system even into the middle of the night. There was always a bus, always the ability to move, and that's in the middle of nowhere. And so most college towns are very walkable, they're bikeable or have really great transit systems. So really these kids are like, I don't really have to think about it.

00:32:16:03 - 00:32:32:02
Veronica Davis
Maybe when I hit my twenties, I'll get my driver's license, and then they've all discovered Uber, and so they use Uber and Lyft and all the different other rideshares to get around. And so they're like, Well, I like it. Why get a license? Why get a car? I can't afford it.

00:32:32:09 - 00:33:06:21
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And we're recording this on Monday, October 16th. And so you know, this past weekend here in Austin, we had the Austin City Limits ACL Music Festival. And the other thing that the youngins are doing is they're getting around by E-scooters and other micromobility devices. And we see them, you know, when you're you're talking about bringing in nearly a hundred thousand people, you know, to a venue side, a music venue site every day for six days across two weekends, you know, that's, you know, 450 some odd thousand people, you know, coming to the event.

00:33:06:23 - 00:33:27:13
John Simmerman
You can't park anywhere. There's no there's no way for somebody to drive to to the venue site. So you see lots of people on e-scooters, lots of people on bikes, lots of people using pedicabs and and transit even is is getting heavy usage and it's like, oh yeah, this and you know, there's a natural inclination to be able to do that.

00:33:27:13 - 00:33:47:24
John Simmerman
So we have hope. We have hope. And it does make me think to when you were talking about, you know, sort of that rationale that was happening by the British prime minister and then also what took place at the state ledge here in Texas, I get a sense that some of this is like playing politics to the base.

00:33:47:27 - 00:34:11:24
Veronica Davis
I think some of it is because, again, it comes down to this, the politics of these people, right? It's always these people. These people are trying to get you to change your life. They don't like you. They don't like the lifestyle that you have. They don't like the choices that you make. They don't like that you live in the suburbs, in your house.

00:34:11:24 - 00:34:30:09
Veronica Davis
They don't like that you're driving to work. And so they are trying to change you. And you see it with zoning. Oh, my gosh. You see it with zoning, right? Where it's like these where communities are like, no, why would anybody want to ever live in a townhome just because you don't want to live in a town hall?

00:34:30:12 - 00:34:51:14
Veronica Davis
Does it mean other people don't want to live in a townhome? You know, and there's been cities where they've tried to just change ordinances or zoning and people are emotional about it. I'll never forget there was an apartment building in D.C. where there was going to be a basement and then a sub basement, which was going to be rentable space.

00:34:51:17 - 00:35:11:03
Veronica Davis
And the people in the community were like a public. Why, no, you can't have people living like that. And so some people are like, Hey, I would love to live like that because I work night shift and I would love to be in a nice dark apartment, you know, so I can actually sleep. And it's like this, like offensiveness of like, how could you?

00:35:11:09 - 00:35:38:10
Veronica Davis
We can't allow people to live like that. And so it's this interesting dictating of lifestyle. All right. So you can have one group that wants to dictate a lifestyle. And anybody that's choosing something different, it's like it's a personal offense. And again, I think that the, you know, coding and all of that just exasperated all of that. And then I think that just overall cannot do way too deep into politics.

00:35:38:10 - 00:36:01:27
Veronica Davis
But I think the political divide, even within families, it feels like everything is you just don't like me and everything I stand for because kids, the kids are saying, no, I want to live in a diverse city. I want to live in an apartment mainly because I can't afford a house, Right? This house that you bought for 185,000, you know, 30 years ago is now $1,000,000 home.

00:36:01:29 - 00:36:15:25
Veronica Davis
Thanks, Mom. I can't afford to live in this community, so let me go Let me go. Have a different lifestyle, too. You know, the younger people are making different choices. And I think it's just this I don't know. It's just there's people want to be offended about something.

00:36:16:02 - 00:36:35:24
John Simmerman
Yeah, I do love that, too. If you're you're right. I mean, it's it's that's part of the reason why in politics, we do see both sides sort of playing to their base, to levels of extreme because, you know, if you can villainize the other side, you know, then you can get you know, you can rally the troops and be able to do that.

00:36:35:27 - 00:36:57:24
John Simmerman
I love the image that we have on screen here for the listening audience. Can you describe this particular image, because this is the core image on the cover of the book. And I think from this image, a lot of what we just talked about sort of gets teased apart part in, you know, is it debunked a little.

00:36:57:27 - 00:37:24:01
Veronica Davis
Yeah. And so the funny funny the back story is actually a different cover originally. And my second round of editing team was like, No, no, no, this cover won't do. It, doesn't speak to it. And I'm going to say just big picture, Zooming out. What I love about the image more than anything is that there's no buildings and it's very intentional in that it's not about the buildings.

00:37:24:03 - 00:37:43:08
Veronica Davis
Right? Right. It doesn't really matter because once you put buildings, then people are going to be like, Oh, is that New York? Is it this is it. And it's just like, no, it's just a building. And people can try to rooted in it's a city, it's a visit to that. And with some elements you know it may still invoke big city feels but it was very intentional to not have buildings.

00:37:43:08 - 00:38:00:09
Veronica Davis
So therefore people could put the buildings there that they need to put to see it in their community. And so really it was about the inclusiveness. So there are people still choosing to drive. There's even a car, you know, driving with the top down, you know. Yeah. And, and.

00:38:00:09 - 00:38:03:03
John Simmerman
Then that speaks to the joy of driving.

00:38:03:05 - 00:38:14:17
Veronica Davis
And the joy of driving. And they're driving around. There's even the little kind of what looks like a smart car or whatever they used to call those cars. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if they do. They still exist.

00:38:14:20 - 00:38:22:09
John Simmerman
Yeah, I do. I'm not sure if the actual companies smart cars still exist, but these are the really micro microcars. Yes.

00:38:22:09 - 00:38:45:12
Veronica Davis
Yes. The little two person cars. Yeah. Yeah. You know so it has that because that some people are like, Hey, I live alone. It's just me and my dog, you know, Fluffy and we just need to get around. I seen a little car that I can park, parallel park on the street and and I will tell you and I don't know if you guys remember the the brand was a car to go that had them and they like dropped them all over the cities where you could park those things anywhere.

00:38:45:17 - 00:38:48:26
John Simmerman
Yeah. No, we used them here in Austin. Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:48:28 - 00:39:12:07
Veronica Davis
See those things anywhere. But I digress. But it also has people. And so there's, you know, two people riding in a pedicab, some on a Vesper, there's people biking. And it was very intentional that we didn't have people in Lycra. And if you notice, none of the people biking have helmets. Right? Right. Because we're talking about a future existence.

00:39:12:07 - 00:39:42:06
Veronica Davis
And you know, not to say that helmets don't help, but it's not the end all. Be all. We all know that better bike infrastructure and more people biking does more to make it safer than helmets. And so the people biking don't have helmets because they're biking for to get to somewhere, Right. A lot of people walking around. So everything from a delivery person, someone in a wheelchair, someone pushing a baby carriage, someone walking their dog.

00:39:42:06 - 00:40:06:17
Veronica Davis
So just all different types of people, someone walking with a cane just to take in the fact that there's all different types of people within an area and they're all moving around and everyone has space available for them to be able to move and make the decisions that they need to make. They can take a taxi, they could take a pedicab, there's a bike share in the background.

00:40:06:19 - 00:40:13:25
Veronica Davis
They can walk. There are plenty of options for them to move. And I think that to me is what it's about at the end of the day.

00:40:13:27 - 00:40:31:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, And you know, from a functional perspective, we've even got a a work van there. So, you know, that's that's also being taken care. And so what we're seeing in this representation in this illustration is something that we talked about earlier, which was freedom and choice.

00:40:31:09 - 00:40:55:20
Veronica Davis
MM It really is. I mean, and I think that to me that is what an inclusive city is about. It it really is about having the many choices available to you to move how you need to move and what's really important, because I think this is another kind of driver mindset. So the driver mindset is if I drive to work, then I have to drive home.

00:40:55:23 - 00:41:16:09
Veronica Davis
Otherwise my car stays at work. That's just the basics of it. Yeah, but you could bike to work and take a bus home, right? Or you can, you could drive to a park and ride and then take the bus the rest of the way. Like you can train and you don't have to, you're not be held beholden, beholden, be held, whatever.

00:41:16:09 - 00:41:17:21
Veronica Davis
You're not, you're not confined.

00:41:17:26 - 00:41:19:11
John Simmerman
I'm not an English major.

00:41:19:14 - 00:41:23:12
Veronica Davis
I we didn't mention this is on Monday morning.

00:41:23:12 - 00:41:24:16
John Simmerman
That's right.

00:41:24:18 - 00:41:43:20
Veronica Davis
But you're not confined to one way to move. And that is the beauty about being multi-modal. I remember I lived in DC without a car for probably about eight years, and it was great because I always made sure I had money on my smart trip card because I could take the bus, I could take Metro and then take another bus.

00:41:43:20 - 00:42:05:26
Veronica Davis
I could take Metro and then I could walk, you know, I could take bike share when Bikeshare was, you know, came around or I can use my own bike. And then if I didn't feel like biking up the hill, guess what? I put it on the front of the bus. Yeah, but all of that is options. We talked earlier about the car to go that used to exist and you know, in Zipcar and so there was the ability to have a car if I actually if I really needed one right.

00:42:06:03 - 00:42:24:05
Veronica Davis
But otherwise you know I just moved around and even, you know when my husband and I got married and lived, we did have a car, but we often forget where we parked the car. There was a right in front of the house. We're like, I don't know where the car is. We'd have to go like hunting the neighborhood to find the car because we just didn't drive.

00:42:24:11 - 00:42:45:16
Veronica Davis
We put in more miles driving from Houston, D.C. to Houston than we did in two years in D.C. and it's just we didn't have to. And there again, there was options available for how we moved. And at the end of the day, that's really what it's about. It's just providing people as many options as they they they need in order to move around.

00:42:45:18 - 00:43:12:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that's one of the the interesting things too of when because you mentioned it with the younger generations who are sort of leaning into this car light sort of lifestyle and you know, wanting that opportunity and then the university setting oftentimes sort of reinforces that because like Ithaca, you know, Ann Arbor is where I did my master's degree.

00:43:12:22 - 00:43:41:16
John Simmerman
You know, they're inherently very walkable, bikeable sort of communities. And so you get that reinforcement of especially for, you know, maybe kids that grew up in dependent suburban contexts where they had to get shuttled around everywhere and so suddenly they're like, oh, wow, I don't have to beg for a ride from the parents. You know, I can literally or until I get my driver's license, you know, when they're 16 or 17 or whatever.

00:43:41:19 - 00:44:00:12
John Simmerman
But like you said, a lot of them are not even going forward and getting their driver's license. Then it gets reinforced in college. And then you had that opportunity of being able to to work in an urban context, in an urban environment where you didn't need a car so much, maybe you had it, maybe it was there as a backstop.

00:44:00:12 - 00:44:08:18
John Simmerman
But on a day to day basis, you were able to to get around D.C. because of mobility choice.

00:44:08:21 - 00:44:27:29
Veronica Davis
And so one thing I said, why we do have the cover up, I do want to give a shout out to the artist of the cover. Martin Schimmel is the one who created the covers. I want to give that shout out. But I think it's a couple of things is as we look back at to the younger generation, what we are seeing, it's compounding issues.

00:44:28:01 - 00:44:48:04
Veronica Davis
And if we don't face them, I believe we will end up with the housing crisis. And I won't go too deep into housing. But we do have a risk of a housing crisis and other things. So one, you have to look at these younger people. So they grew up in a world where they have been connected to the entire world their entire life.

00:44:48:07 - 00:45:06:00
Veronica Davis
I am probably the beginning of the tiny beginning of the Internet generation, but really by the you know, but for me, I was the first first, at least for Marilyn, I was the first group where everyone even just had Internet in their Ethernet at the time, you know, in their in their dorm room. So I'm just at the beginning.

00:45:06:00 - 00:45:24:10
Veronica Davis
But if you look at this younger generation and they have been connected their entire life, they've had social media their entire life, they are learning things off of Tik-tok like literally, I have heard someone say, like, you know, they you know, it was a it was a tick tock of these kids learning how to cut bangs by looking at another tic tac toe.

00:45:24:10 - 00:45:39:19
Veronica Davis
They are that is how they are learning and they're connected into the world in a way that many of us weren't. So they are very aware what's happening. You can try to ban all the books you want. They can get out, they have a phone, they're going to get access to whatever book you don't want them to read.

00:45:39:19 - 00:46:02:16
Veronica Davis
They probably have more knowledge of the world of what's going on than many of us that are working and they're paying attention. And so there is an awareness of these younger people, I think compounded with housing. If you look at housing, I mentioned earlier, you have houses now selling for $1,000,000 and you have a boomer generation that's like, why won't you buy your house?

00:46:02:16 - 00:46:24:07
Veronica Davis
And it's like, yeah, a starter home, you know, for a boomer was like $35,000, right? That same house today is probably a half a million. And you're like, why aren't these? They can afford it. You know, even for people in my cohort, they can't afford it and they're saddled with student loans. But for by God, go, I don't have any student loans.

00:46:24:09 - 00:46:42:21
Veronica Davis
But you know, you have I have so many friends right now in their forties, their late thirties that still have, you know, six figures of student loans. And that's a whole other separate set of a Ponzi scheme if we really want to it that Yeah, you know, and so you have these younger people that have have debt out the wazoo.

00:46:42:24 - 00:47:07:02
Veronica Davis
If you look at where the jobs are, the jobs are largely going to be in the urban areas. So they're going to move to the urban areas and many of them are living in apartments, maybe two bedroom apartments with four people or they're renting houses. And I saw this a lot in D.C. where you rent a house and then you have multiple people in a room and it's almost kind of like a informal group home, if you will.

00:47:07:05 - 00:47:29:24
Veronica Davis
And that's how they're affording. And so they're already stretching to pay for housing. They got these student loans who want to own a car. On top of that, we just talked about the fact that, you know, car ownership, you're looking at 400, $500 a month and that's for carno, gas insurance, you know, all those things, parking tickets. Because if you live in an urban area, you're probably going to get a parking ticket.

00:47:29:26 - 00:47:49:01
Veronica Davis
And so just the expense of it. And so people are saying, you know what? Nope, I'm just going to I'll just bike. And even in cities like like the Houstons of the world, the Dallas is the Fort Worth. You are seeing younger people that are saying that are living. Carlos And these cities and it's very difficult for them, but they're still making that choice.

00:47:49:04 - 00:48:13:15
Veronica Davis
But for the it's just they can't afford a car and then, you know, and then again, you go back to housing, can't afford housing. And so you do have people. But what's really popular here is three bedrooms, two bathrooms, and people are choosing to raise multiple kids in a three bedroom, two bathroom. And it's I will sacrifice space because I can walk to the park, I can walk to multiple parks.

00:48:13:15 - 00:48:20:16
Veronica Davis
I can get to I can get to everything I need if I live in this community. And I will sacrifice space in order to do that.

00:48:20:19 - 00:48:41:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. So you just mentioned parking tickets. And so I have I have to pull something viral up that's going viral right now. It's this dude in Georgia. Your response was just like, Oh, go ahead and set it up.

00:48:41:05 - 00:49:10:07
Veronica Davis
Woohoo. Okay, So one thing about the District of Columbia, they're going to get they got they're going to pay into compliance. So obviously, a lot of cities have red light cameras or speed cameras. But in D.C., there are stop sign cameras. If you don't come to a complete stop, you'll get two tickets, probably like $200 or so. Yeah, because I will say just a little nuance in the law, because you can't verify who's driving it is actually it's written as a parking ticket.

00:49:10:14 - 00:49:35:06
Veronica Davis
So all all automated traffic enforcement in the District of Columbia, it's considered a parking ticket, which means if you don't pay it, you can't get about it until they separate a separate, whole separate issue. And so what we see in this video, so the person and the person who shared this out is a person actually, this is a lot of the police scanners and it gets a lot of information out to the community about what's happening.

00:49:35:08 - 00:50:01:01
Veronica Davis
And so he is driving down the street and there's a stop sign and he does a rolling stop. And so what he's saying is, you know, D.C. is fine, me $200, should I pay or contest? And most of are like, you got to pay up like you do to come to a spot like dude, like for real, Like you didn't even like you touch the brakes, but you did not the car did not come to a complete stop.

00:50:01:04 - 00:50:24:18
Veronica Davis
And one of the things I do want to say so one of the people that did comment who actually is one of my mentees through the women's transportation seminar and she she made a lot about about five, six years ago. And one of the things that she commented, her daughter and her husband were on a bike and they were hit just one block away and it was a vehicle doing a rolling stop.

00:50:24:23 - 00:50:42:16
Veronica Davis
Yeah. And so it is this importance. It's this like sense of like put it I tried and a lot of people don't see anything that's wrong with a rolling stop. But the reality is you may not see what you think you see and it is important to come to a complete stop.

00:50:42:18 - 00:50:45:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:45:04 - 00:51:07:29
John Simmerman
I know to pull that up because you've mentioned that and, and again that, that went viral over the weekend out on Twitter slash X whatever you want to call it. So I thought it would be fun to, to, to pull that up real quick so you're getting back to this you know this image and I wasn't real. I didn't realize that was the artist, Martin Schmalz.

00:51:07:29 - 00:51:37:08
John Simmerman
So thank you very much for pointing that out. It really when I look at this, you know, from an act of towns perspective, again, I'm I'm looking at the built environment that is providing activity, assets, safe and inviting activity, assets that helps encourage people to live their best lives. And as you had mentioned, a person who wants to drive enjoys driving like the person in the in the convertible.

00:51:37:08 - 00:52:17:15
John Simmerman
They're the three people in the convertible. They're you know, they can do. So it's is there people who need to drive and have work that they need to do, like the person in the van, you know, is able to do it. There's there's taxis represented here. And so I look at this as sort of our best representation of from a mobility perspective of showing dignity to everybody, whether there's somebody in a wheelchair who can, you know, choose to get around either in the protected bike lane or on the sidewalk, and also is currently in sort of the refuge island area as this is depicted at the moment.

00:52:17:17 - 00:52:38:07
John Simmerman
But I look at this as inclusive. I look at this as showing dignity to all ages and all abilities. And this is really, you know, sort of the pinnacle as to where I would like to see us get to and embrace this and not be afraid of this. From your perspective, why why is this fearful for some people?

00:52:38:10 - 00:53:05:19
Veronica Davis
I think there's a fearfulness and I think it comes back to power because it can feel like I ceding power to the others that are in this particular image. Because one of the things as you zoom in there is a person who is wearing a religious headdress, you know, head turban, and there's all different types of people. There are someone wearing a mask and it again, and no one really has a face because it doesn't really matter, but it's all different shades.

00:53:05:21 - 00:53:28:28
Veronica Davis
And so for some people, that is scary When I also love it, there's a woman, you know, looking at her cell phone crossing the street and how many times do we try to blame the pedestrian for distracted walking? But imagine a place so safe that someone can just walk across the street, even if they are plastered to their cell phone and be able to get across the street safely.

00:53:29:01 - 00:53:58:16
Veronica Davis
And so I don't know if for some people it's very fearful, and largely because these are going to be in mostly urban areas. And there's always been an otherness about the urban area. I remember when I was in planning, so I did read a book by Gerald Frug, I think through r f r u g on regionalism, and it talked about how people from the suburbs like to come to the cities to get culture, but they want it in a very curated manner.

00:53:58:24 - 00:54:19:15
Veronica Davis
They want to get culture from a museum, a from an art. But the streets are culture. Yeah, right. Like that is all still part of the culture. And so people can say like, you know, I grew up in New Jersey, right outside in New York. And so, you know, I did spend my time commuting to New York, Lower Manhattan, as I mentioned earlier, to New York City Dot.

00:54:19:17 - 00:54:33:13
Veronica Davis
And you know, there's this like, oh, people from the north are cold. Like, that might be so right. Like, no one in New York is trying to smile or wave at you, but let you fall on the street of New York. And those New Yorkers are going to come and help you and get you to where you need to be.

00:54:33:18 - 00:54:51:16
Veronica Davis
It is a sense of a community, right? If you need help, if you don't need help, I got you. Keep moving. Yeah, but if you need help, we're going to be there for you. And I think you saw that you hit 911 and all the other, you know, things that have happened in New York where it is a community that comes together and that's part of living in the city.

00:54:51:16 - 00:55:12:23
Veronica Davis
It's the culture is the street. Somebody was recently talking about how New York has changed. And again, it's people who moved to New York for the culture and then try to change the culture. There was an article about Harlem and how people were, you know, gentrification was happening in Harlem and people were moving to Harlem and then complaining about the noise of Harlem.

00:55:12:23 - 00:55:36:01
Veronica Davis
And it's like, but that is the culture, you know? And so again, there's this otherness, there's this culture that people really don't want to be a part of. They want they want it curated. I'll never forget I worked for a city outside of D.C. and I'll never forget we were working on the waterfront plan and and it's like a it's like one of those like, did this person just say this out loud?

00:55:36:01 - 00:55:54:05
Veronica Davis
And so this person, this is supposed to be a enlightened community, a progressive community. And they said, Oh, no, no, no. We we like diversity. We just would like for it to be high end. And I was like, What? What is high? And diversity? They're like, Oh, yeah, we want like first at the time, First lady, First Lady Michelle Obama.

00:55:54:12 - 00:56:22:03
Veronica Davis
Like that is the type of diversity we want to attract. And so again, I think that that's part of what you see at this. Like people look at urban areas, they're dirty, they're grimy. It's it's even in the language around, you know, safety. It's like Chicago. It's it's like a shipwreck. But even when you present people with numbers of, hey, these rural towns are actually probably you're more likely to get shot and killed in this rural town than you are in Chicago.

00:56:22:03 - 00:56:31:17
Veronica Davis
It doesn't matter. It's cities are very scary places. Yeah. And so that just also just continues to manifest in some of this conversation.

00:56:31:19 - 00:56:55:16
John Simmerman
One of the things that I like about this particular image and and you mentioned it earlier, is the fact that there is no representation of the housing stock in the buildings in the area. And the reason I like that is because it does focus in hone in on the street and I, I think it's because the context really does matter in terms of.

00:56:55:16 - 00:57:20:04
John Simmerman
Yes. You know, is this a suburban environment? Is this an urban landscape? But at the same time, if we if we step take a step back and we don't focus in on that, it's like, well, it's about the street. It's about how we're able to redefine what the street is for. I mean, you've probably noticed my coffee shop here.

00:57:20:04 - 00:57:43:15
John Simmerman
Streets are for people in my little mantra that I try to keep, you know, up at the forefront of active towns is that this manifestation we see in our streets right now is relatively recent. In the last 100, 120 years, the streets were taken over by an interloper, the automobile. Prior to that, for thousands of years, streets were for people.

00:57:43:15 - 00:58:03:13
John Simmerman
In the streets were where people came together and where commerce took place and where you had chance meetings and all of these wonderful things. That is humanity, as well as brushing shoulders with people who don't look like you don't sound like you and are don't have the same abilities as you.

00:58:03:16 - 00:58:04:16
Veronica Davis
And then say.

00:58:04:18 - 00:58:15:00
John Simmerman
Yeah, and this is such an incredible, incredible part and part of your book even talks about having empathy. So talk a little bit more about that in this context.

00:58:15:02 - 00:58:33:01
Veronica Davis
Yeah. And so why would we do that? I am going to ask you to pull up my picture of Maplewood, New Jersey. Okay. But I love to you. So this is a picture from The New York Times. It shows Maplewood, New Jersey. So I'm from a small town. It is a little bitty bedroom community of New York, and it's an older suburb.

00:58:33:05 - 00:59:00:29
Veronica Davis
So it was very much a colonial town. There's a street called Roosevelt Boulevard that the the Roosevelt, you know, participated in, in building some of the gates around that. But one of the things that you see in this is the downtown area of my little community. And, yes, people drove to the downtown area, but it was very much and it was very clear that people could be walking and you will go slow and the fines will be severe if you even remotely hit a pedestrian.

00:59:00:29 - 00:59:20:17
Veronica Davis
And I can tell you, growing up, I don't recall. I can't think of any instance of a car crash or a pedestrian being struck and this little, you know, strip of town. I have never seen it. I'm not going to say it's never happened. But, you know, in the I lived there from 5 to 18 and that was 13 years.

00:59:20:17 - 00:59:56:08
Veronica Davis
I can't recall the time that I ever saw a crash or anything of that nature. And part of it is and it's very similar to this street where you have really great sidewalks. It's a very walkable community. And so I think that sometimes small towns forget that they're actually pretty walkable. Yeah. And so and so I do want to share that as we talk about the different communities and even as my town resisted the change but has changed, the post office is now a, you know, an apartment building, which was like, you know, it was a big it was a big long barrel.

00:59:56:11 - 01:00:21:05
Veronica Davis
But even with that, it is still very much a walkable town. And that's how I grew up. And there's a train that takes you right into New York City. But even as talkers, you talk about empathy. You know, it really is. And part of the reason why I start the book off with people telling their own story, it's, you know, self-awareness is going to be your most effective tool If you don't know who you are, you can't deal with anybody else.

01:00:21:05 - 01:00:40:02
Veronica Davis
And so it really is taking that time to understand yourself, to love yourself, to but to understand yourself and not to get to the biblical. But I think people misuse the life. Love your neighbor as you love yourself, right. And so how do you love your neighbor if you don't have any love for who you are as an individual and you don't know who you are?

01:00:40:05 - 01:01:04:19
Veronica Davis
And that's why I start the book off with understanding your transportation story. Just and it doesn't have to be anything dramatic. Just how do you why do you make the choices that you make? And there's probably different reasons for that. And then I end and I talk about empathy and it's about how can you truly just listen to yourself Because diversity, equity, inclusion is important, but you can't put that on that person to do the work.

01:01:04:19 - 01:01:32:22
Veronica Davis
What are you willing to do? What are you willing to understand about how other people move? And it doesn't have to be this performative thing, right? It doesn't have to be even hard because I know books are hard. And so I shared I love sci fi books. I love to read fiction. Yeah. And so what I do is I take the time to seek out fiction books written by people from other communities, whether it's LBGTQ.

01:01:32:22 - 01:01:55:26
Veronica Davis
You, whether it is people with a disability, but it's centering a different type of character. And what you get in a fiction books, especially if it's a first person fiction, is you get their thoughts. And oftentimes that author, if they are from, you know, if they're from that particular community, they're going to put their thoughts in there about different things that make them anxious.

01:01:56:04 - 01:02:17:23
Veronica Davis
So one book I read, I'll never forget, it was a dystopian future, and one of the main characters was a transgender woman. And so there was this fear that you hear in the book of, okay, the world is about to end. I'm trying to figure out how I saved myself. But then even as I save myself, I'm concerned about my personal safety as I get on this shit.

01:02:17:23 - 01:02:34:23
Veronica Davis
Right? And so it's a dystopian. It's the fear that most people would have if we knew that the world was ending, coupled with all these other kind of elements. And I will say, you know, as a black woman, it's a concern of like, Oh, shoot, it's a ship of all white people. I don't want guards ship. I'll wait for the next war, you know.

01:02:34:23 - 01:02:55:23
Veronica Davis
And so it's all these is all the different emotions that you get. And so those are ways that you can get insight into people. It's really about centering other people and understanding someone else's world. I think that, you know, even as you look at I follow on Twitter, for example, disability Twitter is like the most like eye opening conversations to have.

01:02:55:23 - 01:03:18:23
Veronica Davis
And I don't necessarily participate in the conversations. I don't really have anything to add. But I sit back and observe and it's all the little things of even disagreement within the disability community, because sometimes accommodating one disability impacts another disability, right? And so it's keeping that in mind. It's sometimes we go to the wheelchair and it's like, that's one type.

01:03:18:23 - 01:03:42:19
Veronica Davis
But you have people who have different sensitivities or different, you know, they take in stimuli different around the world and that's a type of disability. And so while we have added an accessible pedestrian signal that can chirp to a person who is visually impaired, know that it's time to cross the street for someone who is neurodivergent, that chirping might trigger something in them or stimulate.

01:03:42:19 - 01:04:05:25
Veronica Davis
And so it's been just fascinating to think about all of these challenges and having a certain level of empathy for all of these different challenges is how different people experience the world. And the more that you are aware of that, you can make mistakes and it's okay. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to say you don't know, but it's taking the time to continue to push through and understand.

01:04:05:27 - 01:04:27:04
Veronica Davis
And it's really fascinating. And I think the more that you can do that, the more you will find that as an individual, you just become a more open person to a lot of a lot of things. But I'm also very clear that even with empathy and there is a really, really great quote by James Baldwin, I'm Googling it real quick.

01:04:27:05 - 01:04:46:12
Veronica Davis
I don't want to mess up this quote. Hold on. Hold on. Let me give you give me 2 seconds. This is a quote. It says, okay, here it is. So James Baldwin, he said, we can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist. And so I am very clear about that.

01:04:46:12 - 01:05:05:26
Veronica Davis
Like, I'm I have some empathy, but then there's going to be a point where if your thoughts and your opinions cause me harm or potential harm, then we don't need to. I don't have empathy for you. I don't want I don't want to cause you harm. I wish you well in life, but I don't want I don't have empathy for that.

01:05:06:03 - 01:05:08:02
Veronica Davis
Yeah.

01:05:08:04 - 01:05:34:20
John Simmerman
To close this out, one of the my favorite parts of the book was the fact that at some point in time, I don't remember exactly where it was in the book, but you basically got to the point of saying, we just can't keep having endless conversations and endless meetings and having these conversations and just so that we can check off something on the box to say we had this conversation.

01:05:34:23 - 01:05:55:25
John Simmerman
It's like if we're going to be serious about Vision Zero, if we're going to be serious about creating walkable communities, at some point in time, we need to move forward and do it with a certain sense of humbleness and having empathy for the fact that it's going to be potentially even triggering for some people because change is hard.

01:05:56:00 - 01:06:10:28
John Simmerman
But at some point in time, we got to get we got to get cracking, we got to get moving. I mean, there's people dying on our streets and the planet's burning up. So talk a little bit about that. To close us out is at some point in time we got to get moving.

01:06:11:00 - 01:06:29:22
Veronica Davis
Yeah, So I talk a lot about that in chapter five, and I made one a very controversial statement. I was like, Sometimes there's no sometimes you never get consensus, right? Yes. And I think it's like hard because every planner's like, now we've been taught like now we're going to get everybody in the room. We're going to do all this great engagement and we're going to get there.

01:06:30:00 - 01:06:45:11
Veronica Davis
You're not going to get there. They're going to be timed. You are just not going to get there and it's okay. And so it's almost kind of like, oh, have you ever did like Rabbis Rules or Order and, you know, all different types of motions. And there are some that aren't debatable and some that are debatable. I mean, I.

01:06:45:11 - 01:06:49:10
John Simmerman
Think I was I was the parliamentarian in for age. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

01:06:49:12 - 01:07:08:01
Veronica Davis
Oh, man. I'm a I'm a big stickler, too. Yeah. And so the thing about Robert's Rules is that there's some things that aren't debatable motions. You know, we could just go do it. Are we going that? And I feel like we have to treat some projects like that. It is not debatable. And I talk about that like sidewalks as an example, I don't care.

01:07:08:01 - 01:07:20:27
Veronica Davis
Whatever city I have ever worked in, Sidewalks are the hardest infrastructure project to do, right? Harder than anything else that I've ever done. Sidewalks are the hardest.

01:07:21:00 - 01:07:41:23
John Simmerman
And what's what's what's interesting. We should pause on that a little bit because I happen to live in a neighborhood where we don't have sidewalks. It was platted in the 1930s. You know, by the time these houses were built, it was right immediately after World War Two, a meet right immediately after World War Two. We were very poor.

01:07:41:25 - 01:08:03:10
John Simmerman
You know, it wasn't until the fifties before things started going. And so there were no sidewalks planned in this area. Will probably never have sidewalks on these streets because now we have heritage trees that we are beloved, growing in that eight foot area. There continue. That's part of the context of why it can be hard to put in sidewalks.

01:08:03:10 - 01:08:19:29
Veronica Davis
That and then people don't. I don't want people walking in front of my house because then they might rob someone. A bad person might come from across the city and walk in front of my house and rob me like they are going to walk out with a 75 inch TV and just walk down the street with it.

01:08:19:29 - 01:08:31:19
John Simmerman
But oh, and we hear the same thing about, you know, multi-use paths that are going, you know, you know, along the the canal, whatever, the bayou down in Houston. And the same thing will be said.

01:08:31:25 - 01:08:49:07
Veronica Davis
Yes, the infamous boogeyman. And so they're very, very hard to put in. And know that some cities have a law where you have to have a sidewalk on at least one side of the street. And I'll never forget in D.C., it got to the point where everyone's like, Oh, I agree, we should have sidewalks on that side of the street.

01:08:49:09 - 01:09:07:19
Veronica Davis
And so then they passed a law. Okay, since since you guys want to do this now, both sides have to have a sidewalk. And so we have to say, is that a debatable motion? Right. It should not be debatable, especially when you're talking about kids having to walk in the street to get to school. But that doesn't make sense.

01:09:07:21 - 01:09:29:18
Veronica Davis
And I have seen schools even where kids live in walking distance and that drop off line like, why are we like, why are we okay with a drop off line a mile long of parents sitting there idling for hours? Right. Because to then be at the front of the drop off line, you have to get there an hour before drop off.

01:09:29:22 - 01:09:46:23
Veronica Davis
So you now have wasted an hour of your time to get in the front of the drop off line to then, you know, idle maybe even if you turn your car off just to get your child to go home, let your child walk home. And especially when I sit at a middle school and high school like, what are we doing?

01:09:46:23 - 01:09:48:04
Veronica Davis
Are we okay with this?

01:09:48:06 - 01:10:15:00
John Simmerman
And I think that we we do have to have a certain level of empathy, of understanding that in in a car brain society, we do have to at certain, at a certain level, you know, cut those parents for that logical and somewhat practical decision to do what they're doing in the context that they're in. But your point is, is that if we have made these decisions, this this is what we're going to do.

01:10:15:00 - 01:10:38:14
John Simmerman
Let's use let's stick with the schools and use, you know, school zone as an example and say, yeah, every single elementary and middle school should have a zone around it where it's inherently walkable and bikeable for kids to be able to get around. It's like, okay, we're no longer going to continue to debate this ad nauseum. We're going to like implement.

01:10:38:16 - 01:11:02:27
Veronica Davis
Exactly. And it and it's very challenging. And I'll say that this is where I also talk about having bold leadership is important. Electing better leaders is also important. One thing I will say about, you know, my my current position is so, you know, Mayor Turner is his is and, you know, it's terms coming to an end. Right. But one thing I appreciate about him is he is a decisive leader because.

01:11:02:27 - 01:11:31:18
Veronica Davis
There have been very sticky situations that I'm telling you, I've worked in so many cities across the country that most other mayors, 99.9% of all the other mayors I ever worked with would have either said, well, let's think about it. Let's put a pause guys, let's do more engagement. And in order to get the project done, this mayor said, okay, let me go see for myself.

01:11:31:20 - 01:12:00:07
Veronica Davis
And we showed him the, you know, the street. We walk through what it is, we walk through the issues. And then the mayor put out a four minute video about why this was going to move forward. Yeah. You know, and that is decisive leadership. And so that's again, in chapter six, I talk about this. It's you need to have bold leaders, but I am able to make hard decisions because I know that my boss and my boss's boss are not going to overturn my position, my my decisions if I can defend it.

01:12:00:10 - 01:12:16:09
Veronica Davis
Yeah, they're not going to overturn my decision. So it enables me when you look at Jeannette Farrakhan and everything that she did in New York City, it was because the mayor had her back and she had come up with everything and the mayor said, no, no, no, we can't do it this way. We can't do it this way.

01:12:16:09 - 01:12:28:14
Veronica Davis
We would not have the time square that we have today. So you need to have really good people that are running these department transportation, that are making the decisions. But you also have to have good elected leaders.

01:12:28:14 - 01:12:29:17
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:29:20 - 01:12:41:03
Veronica Davis
And that means to put out your creative and you need to put them on notice that if you don't have good elected leaders, it doesn't matter who you have. Sitting in the seats that I occupy.

01:12:41:05 - 01:13:09:25
John Simmerman
And you do address that at the end of the book of talking about the need for bold leaders and leadership. And you've got other wonderful leaders down there, Harris County, good of mine, Rodney Ellis. You know, Commissioner Ellis is now you you actually a few years ago had a situation where you sort of, you know, kick the hornet's nest little bit and and wasn't there something about like a sticker about Lycra and then you were the only person who showed up without.

01:13:09:25 - 01:13:29:09
Veronica Davis
Like so so yeah. So first of all, my bike, I have several stickers. I have one that says Build better cities on my bike. I have one I bike because I'm awesome. I'm the Hill Killers, another one. But I have also on their friends. Don't let friends away like yeah, yeah. A Commissioner Ellis. So I met him when he was a state senator.

01:13:29:09 - 01:13:50:05
Veronica Davis
Man Oh gosh, I don't remember what year it was. It was, it was several years ago and other things almost nine, ten years ago. But anyway, so he came to D.C. and He wanted to bike ride while he was there. He was he was into biking. I can't take credit for getting him into biking. He was into biking before, but he came to D.C. and he wanted to bike around.

01:13:50:05 - 01:14:09:01
Veronica Davis
And so we took him around D.C. to different infrastructure. Black women bike did. And so we have a really great photo. But yeah, everyone's in Lycra. I'm in jeans because I just had this thing. I refused even when I used to bike with black women and bike yeah it was I would you couldn't get me in spandex because I'm just not that type of cyclist God bless.

01:14:09:08 - 01:14:16:27
Veronica Davis
And again, it's about choice, right? I'm not taking away your choice. You know, the friends that we're friends. But Lycra just is a time.

01:14:16:28 - 01:14:39:18
John Simmerman
It's a friend. It's a it's a fun little thing. Well, now, yes. And now that I know that you love stickers, I need to make sure to get your address so I can send you a series of four people. Sticker. Veronica Oh, Davis inclusive transportation folks, please pick up the book. It is an absolute joy. Thank you so very much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

01:14:39:20 - 01:14:42:20
Veronica Davis
Thank for having me. It's been a great conversation.

01:14:42:22 - 01:14:56:17
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you did, please give the thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend and if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and ring the notifications bell.

01:14:56:21 - 01:15:22:05
John Simmerman
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01:15:22:11 - 01:15:42:08
John Simmerman
I've done all sorts of good stuff out there, including some streets for people swag, T-shirts, water bottles, coffee mugs, all that good stuff. Again, thank you so much for tuning in. It really means so much to me. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers. And again sending a huge thank you to all my active towns.

01:15:42:08 - 01:15:57:27
John Simmerman
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