The transcript was exported from the video version of the episode - Note that it has not been copy edited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:31:01
Justin Jones
No matter how good your design is, if your primary function is to welcome cars, it will never be a welcoming space for people walking for people, cycling for children, for seniors, for people with mobility impairments. Think about how subtraction can add to our lives. And subtraction can add to our communities. And the more that I thought about this, the more that I thought the more spaces we subtract cars from in our communities, the more places we add people to.

00:00:31:13 - 00:00:48:17
John Simmerman
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman and that is Justin Jones coming back on the podcast for a second time. Justin resides up in Ontario, Canada, and we are going to be talking about Intentional Streets. So let's get right to it. With Justin Jones.

00:00:53:25 - 00:00:54:26
John Simmerman
Justin, welcome.

00:00:55:24 - 00:00:59:22
Justin Jones
Thanks, John. So, so happy to be here again. Thanks for having me.

00:01:00:03 - 00:01:06:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, absolutely. So I just want you do a quick favor. I want you to share a little bit about yourself.

00:01:07:21 - 00:01:41:05
Justin Jones
Yeah. Thanks. So my name's Justin Jones, and I'm joining you today from Collingwood, Ontario, up here in in beautiful Canada. I am a an active transportation planner and community engagement specialist with with WSP Canada. And so I mostly work on active transportation planning and community engagement efforts. And I really love what I do. I love connecting with people and talking about the different ways that we can improve our communities through through active transportation and reimagining what our streets look like.

00:01:41:05 - 00:01:51:20
Justin Jones
And so I'm so excited to get to share the new concept that I'm that I've been thinking about with you here today, John, and talk about how we can be a little bit more intentional about what our streets look like.

00:01:52:09 - 00:02:16:04
John Simmerman
Fantastic. Looking forward to this. And in fact, I just say welcome back because you have been on the podcast before, way back in season one and 2020, episode number 49. You were joining me with Matt Pender and we had a fabulous little discussion about Heath Straits or bicycle Priorities trips, as they are also known. And that was a real hoot to do that.

00:02:16:04 - 00:02:20:21
John Simmerman
And that was the audio only version. So now it's fun to have you here on video.

00:02:21:14 - 00:02:39:22
Justin Jones
Yeah, well, you know, I've always been told that I have a face for radio, So this is this is a little bit uncomfortable for me being on the video. But, you know, I'm so happy to be here. And, you know, it was really that that episode and that discussion with with Matt, who's now my colleague here at WSP Canada, who I get to work with every day.

00:02:39:22 - 00:03:01:00
Justin Jones
And it's an absolute joy to be surrounded by such amazing people. But it was that it was that initial conversation, that initial discussion about about feet start, that really, I think, planted the seed in me that that's led to to the the piece about intentional streets that that I'm working on right now and that I'm excited to go live with and have more discussions about in the future.

00:03:01:16 - 00:03:08:12
John Simmerman
Yeah. So why don't you introduce us to the concept. What do, what do we mean or what do you mean by intentional street?

00:03:09:07 - 00:03:31:07
Justin Jones
Well, when I think about intentional spaces, you know, the the story for me really goes back to the idea that when we design spaces with an intent, they can become really welcoming to the people that we aim to engage. So you know, the way that I like to start this off is just is by sharing a little story.

00:03:31:07 - 00:03:49:19
Justin Jones
And, you know, it's a story that starts with most of my stories do with my with my kids. I've got two young daughters and, you know, we really love the lifestyle here in Collingwood, the kind of live work play that we're allowed to do. And the one day we were out on our on our cargo bike and we were out for a bike ride.

00:03:49:19 - 00:04:04:27
Justin Jones
We were just, you know, enjoying the summer sun and we went down to the waterfront and we, we hopped out of the cargo bikes. The kids kind of needed to run around for a bit. And my four year old, we went to the to the labyrinth and my four year old Josephine ran right to the middle of the labyrinth.

00:04:05:00 - 00:04:25:25
Justin Jones
And as you can see here on the screen, she she sat down in a quiet pose, kind of hands to heart, and she just sat there and had like a little moment of quiet meditation. And I was so struck by that because I didn't tell Josephine what to do. I didn't see Josie go have a meditation in the middle of that, in the middle of the labyrinth here.

00:04:26:07 - 00:04:57:14
Justin Jones
Josie saw that space and realized that there was a design intent behind that space, and Josie responded to that intent. And so it really just kind of planted that seed in my head about what can happen when we are intentional about how we design our public spaces. And so, you know, it really did kick me off on on a bit of a journey of thinking about what it means to conceptualize streets not just as streets but as public spaces.

00:04:58:03 - 00:05:25:06
Justin Jones
And so I started to, you know, I think it kind of sat in my head for a little while. And it wasn't until another time when I was out with my kids and we were at a newly designed playground. And maybe I'll talk a little bit about that after. But, you know, I before we before I do that, you know, I'd like to I'd like to start off and just ask you, John, what's the most recent time in public space that you felt really welcomed in that public space?

00:05:26:05 - 00:05:54:11
John Simmerman
Yes. Well, I mean, it's a little unfair since I just got back from Delft. But yeah, I mean, one of the great things about many of the Dutch cities is that there are plentiful places that are truly designed, intentionally designed to be welcoming for people. And there's there's actually a favorite street. And I keep coming back to this little street.

00:05:54:11 - 00:06:23:06
John Simmerman
I would pass by it every morning as I was either writing into the downtown area there in Delft to get coffee or to go to the train station. It was just it's just this really narrow, delightful little street. It's shared space. And the the design of it, the the scale of it in all in everything else just makes it, you know, a truly welcoming space, even though everybody's welcome, regardless of mode.

00:06:23:06 - 00:06:49:24
John Simmerman
So cars are welcome there and but in and I think this kind of gets to where I think you're going to go is the difference between creating spaces that where where you feel like you're able to go versus whether it's truly inviting and and this was a street that I just felt like I was drawn to it just because it was such an inviting environment.

00:06:50:14 - 00:06:52:07
Justin Jones
Hmm. And when was that? When were you there?

00:06:52:29 - 00:06:55:06
John Simmerman
So I was just there a few weeks ago, so.

00:06:55:06 - 00:07:01:25
Justin Jones
Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask you, when was the last time you were driving on what you would call kind of more like a freeway in a car?

00:07:02:22 - 00:07:10:29
John Simmerman
Oh, gosh. Probably the last time I had to, you know, go towards the airport, drop somebody off at the airport. So. Yeah, yeah, I'm.

00:07:11:00 - 00:07:12:05
Justin Jones
Probably even more recently.

00:07:12:26 - 00:07:14:16
John Simmerman
Even more recently. Yeah. Yeah.

00:07:14:24 - 00:07:30:29
Justin Jones
So? So I would I would actually challenge your assertion that the last time you felt truly welcomed in a public space was that time in in Delft. And I would say that the last time you were truly welcomed in a public space was when you were on that highway and.

00:07:31:18 - 00:07:41:19
John Simmerman
That's a good reframing of it. Yeah, in a different context in exactly that as a I was welcomed as a driver in, in, in that room. Yeah.

00:07:41:28 - 00:08:08:10
Justin Jones
Yeah. And that's exactly it. I think when it comes to the idea of intentional streets, I think that what we want to start thinking about is when we are thinking about the purpose of our public space, when we look at a highway, I think that a highway is actually an incredible example of just how intentional we can be when we want to truly welcome a particular user into a space.

00:08:08:20 - 00:08:39:14
Justin Jones
Highways are designed with wide lanes, with minimal crossings, with minimal interactions with other users, typically with very smooth surfaces. They are the ultimate space that shows what we can do when we want to be welcoming to cars, to people in cars. And so when you are driving a highway is a is an extremely welcoming space right now. The corollary of that is that a highway is also an extremely exclusive space if you are not walking or if you are not driving.

00:08:39:27 - 00:09:06:00
Justin Jones
So a highway is designed to be welcoming to the car in the ultimate. And what I what I want to challenge people on with the concept of intentional streets is to start thinking about why are we can apply that so rigorously to highways and why we've been so poor at applying that same ideal to spaces for people in North America.

00:09:06:09 - 00:09:34:07
Justin Jones
Right. And so so when when we think about being welcomed in a space, I think that being welcome depends on the context in which we are moving through it. Right. And I think that it's important for us to engage in conversation and with our communities about who and what is welcomed in our public spaces, who and what is accommodated and who and what is excluded from our public spaces through our designs.

00:09:34:07 - 00:09:56:11
Justin Jones
And I think that those are three different things that we don't really talk about when it comes to the differences and how we're using our public space. We are frequently when you talked about that street and you mention that that cars are welcome on that street, I would argue that in a feedstock or in kind of a slow neighborhood, street, cars are accommodated.

00:09:56:20 - 00:10:17:05
Justin Jones
There you go in those streets, people are welcomed, cars are accommodated. And that is a distinction that I think we should be more deliberate about drawing when we are designing our public space, when we are thinking about who is it that is our target audience for this space and how is this space serving them. And so who are we welcoming?

00:10:17:16 - 00:10:37:07
Justin Jones
Who are we accommodating and who are we excluding in the design of our public space? Because at the end of the day, I think that we have fallen into a trap in North America where we are trying to, you know, we're we're really like going down the strode mentality of of truck marone and strong towns with all of our streets.

00:10:37:19 - 00:11:13:23
Justin Jones
All of our streets are being designed to welcome cars. Right. And my argument with intentional streets is that when you design spaces to welcome cars, you can never do more than accommodate everyone else. No matter how good your design is, if your primary function is to welcome cars, it will never be a welcoming space for people walking, for people, cycling for children, for seniors, for people with mobility impairments, any of those folks who are excluded from the public space merely by the presence of those of the fact that we're welcoming cars in every avenue of our communities.

00:11:14:10 - 00:11:46:00
Justin Jones
And so that's what I want to kickstart a conversation about with the idea of intentional streets. And it's the idea of of really looking at how our public space is operating and asking ourselves, are we okay with that? Is that how we really want our limited public space to be used in our communities? Because we are incredibly ingenious when it comes to design and public spaces to welcome children or seniors or people with disabilities or, you know, places for people to sit and gather.

00:11:46:00 - 00:12:16:24
Justin Jones
We are we are very good at doing that in places like parks or, you know, community centers or or open spaces. But what we are not good at doing is applying those same questions to public space that in most communities makes up the biggest collection of our shared public space. And that's our streets. And I think that that is really to our detriment because we are losing access to all of this public space, because we insist that welcoming cars be the first thing that we do.

00:12:17:09 - 00:12:41:18
John Simmerman
Right. And it's partly to is, you know, when we get to you mentioned Chuck Moran's work, when we get to the definition of what is a street versus what is a road slash highway and you know, that mash up that we get in. And that's part of the challenge that we have in North America and many other cities and states and municipalities around the globe, is that we've mashed this up.

00:12:41:18 - 00:13:24:18
John Simmerman
We've taken highway standards and concepts of welcoming cars and literally everywhere and then, you know, applied it to, you know, areas where we're like, well, yeah, I mean, this isn't welcoming to anybody except for cars. And of course, the irony is it doesn't work that well for cars either. But I mean, yes, to to your point now, what's really, really important about Intentional streets is the fact that you you're making a point of identifying that the difference between a street versus a road versus a highway, a street is a very different place.

00:13:24:18 - 00:13:48:28
John Simmerman
You know, as Chuck would say, a street is the platform for building wealth. And and this is where you meet other people and this is where transactions happen. And, you know, in in your neighborhood streets. I mean, it's a completely different context than this. You know, it's a completely different context than this. And it should be intentionally.

00:13:49:25 - 00:14:14:05
Justin Jones
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think you've really you know, you've you've got to the heart of it quite quickly, which is that when it comes to roads, when it comes to the, you know, the types of of corridors that are connecting communities and really the primary focus is to move people and goods a relatively high speeds across relatively significant different distances, particularly in the North American context.

00:14:14:20 - 00:14:40:18
Justin Jones
It's important to recognize that the question about, you know, who should be the priority user on those kinds of corridors, the answer might be cars. And that's an okay thing for it to be in communities. But what I want to focus on with the idea of Intentional Streets is that we should at least be asking that question with every road that is going through our communities, every street that that is interacting with our schools.

00:14:40:28 - 00:15:04:05
Justin Jones
And we should start thinking about how that public space is being allocated and who is being welcomed and who is being accommodated and who is being left out. And we should have an open dialog about whether or not the fact that we are excluding a large number of people from our public space aligns with our community values right now.

00:15:04:06 - 00:15:26:13
Justin Jones
I think that if you stood up in a community meeting and you asked residents of almost any place and you said how would people feel about designing our public spaces so that children and seniors and people with disabilities are not welcome? I think for for the most part, people would really like stand up and say, absolutely not. We were not okay with that.

00:15:26:13 - 00:15:52:15
Justin Jones
We don't want you know, we don't want our new park to not accommodate children or seniors or people with disabilities. Right. But those conversations don't happen when it comes to streets. And we are, I think, doing a disservice to the limited amount of public space that we have available within our communities when we don't engage in those in those foundational conversations about how our public spaces are being allocated.

00:15:52:15 - 00:16:15:29
Justin Jones
And so that's really what I'm trying to drive out with Intentional Streets is getting to a place where we can open up those conversations, where we can encourage people to imagine their streets as public space and where we can then get them thinking about what values are being expressed in the design of their streets. And and how is that aligning with the values that they'd like to see in their community?

00:16:16:18 - 00:16:36:22
Justin Jones
Yeah. And so in some instances there are going to be roads where when we ask like, who do we want to welcome on this road or street, there are going to be corridors where people keep defaulting to road. When I'm talking about the car or the car welcoming once you know, there are going to be spaces where where, you know, the decision is going to be we want to welcome cars.

00:16:36:22 - 00:17:00:12
Justin Jones
That is our priority user. But we are currently kind of sleepwalking through that decision and we are defaulting to welcoming cars as our primary user on every single street in our community. Yeah, one need look no further. You know, my little, my little street up from my house here probably probably carries on average, maybe 200 vehicles a day, tops.

00:17:01:25 - 00:17:38:17
Justin Jones
You know, it's a narrow residential street. There's no sidewalks on it. It's in an older, you know, kind of older subdivision than that in the community. And and, you know, when my kids are out in the front lawn playing, I'm I'm gripped by a constant sense of anxiety. Right. Because even though there are very few cars going down that street, the design of our streets and the way that we've imagined our communities has been so welcoming to cars that even just the threat of a car coming along my street is enough to give me anxiety, enough to keep my kids away from that public space right.

00:17:38:17 - 00:17:59:24
Justin Jones
And so they are not able to enjoy the connection with their across the street neighbors. You know, they kind of have to deal with the constant like, you know, don't go near the road yelling for mom and dad when they're out in the front yard. And those are the kinds of things that are that are consequences that I don't think we talk about when it comes to how we design our communities.

00:18:00:10 - 00:18:32:03
Justin Jones
And so I want to start a conversation with the idea of intentional streets that really takes the idea of the feet start that we talked about earlier and goes a little deeper on it because I think it is incumbent on all of us as professionals and people with experience in creating more livable communities to to open up conversations about about how our communities are working and how folks can improve them through just reimagining what our public spaces look like.

00:18:32:21 - 00:18:57:01
John Simmerman
Yeah, so I went back to this image here just to to quickly put a kind of a a fine point on it in terms of that difference between welcoming and inviting versus, you know, saying that, you know, somebody can do this, you're able to do this. It's there's a huge difference between saying, you know, by the way, there's a sidewalk here.

00:18:57:01 - 00:19:30:29
John Simmerman
What's your problem? You know, you're able to do this. And so it's a very big difference between that. It's one of the pet peeves that I have with the Complete Streets approach at doing things is is a check box sort of approach and saying that, you know, hey, there's an accommodation here for, you know, a person who is walking or a person who's in a wheelchair or person, you know, pushing a baby stroller, you know, hey, if you really push us, we'll slap a you know, a bike lane down in here and then it'll be we'll check that box and you'll be there.

00:19:31:06 - 00:19:58:20
John Simmerman
I like to say that a complete street isn't complete until it's it's truly welcoming and inviting to to all modes. And and then you can be, you know, saying, okay, you know, now we're getting there. It sounds like you're you're, you're, you're basically saying we need to make we need to actually decide intentionally who is really, truly welcomed and invited in this environment.

00:19:59:01 - 00:20:31:24
John Simmerman
And if it doesn't align with what's on screen within the design, then we need to take a step back and we need to say, you know, okay, what is this? Is this just a highway? Is this just a road where we're we're focusing on throughput? And if that's the case, then, you know, in the case of a strode like this, you have to have an honest admission as a highway designer, because now you're basically designing highways, is that this doesn't work well for that either.

00:20:31:24 - 00:20:53:22
John Simmerman
In fact, it's one of the most dangerous designs of roadways that we have because there's so many conflict points, there's so many driveways, there's so many intersections, and therefore, it's one of the areas where we see the highest crash rates and the highest serious injury and fatality rates. So, I mean, I don't you know, I don't buy it.

00:20:53:22 - 00:21:01:14
John Simmerman
I mean, if if you're going to be designing highways, design highways, don't mash them up. Don't don't try to make it be a street and a road at the same time.

00:21:02:08 - 00:21:40:09
Justin Jones
And and I think that is that's exactly you know, you've you've hit a couple of things that I that I really wanted to get to. And the first is I think my my my erstwhile critique of of some of the complete streets movements and complete streets efforts that go on. And I think, you know, you hit the nail on the head complete streets I think in the North American context have have almost always been an exercise in more they've almost always been an exercise in increasing the amount of right of way, adding in additional things, whether it's a multi-use trail or a sidewalk or a, you know, a bustling or or you just keep widening,

00:21:40:09 - 00:21:46:09
Justin Jones
widening, widening until you you fit everything in. And there has but very seldom.

00:21:46:11 - 00:21:52:27
John Simmerman
Seen it sounding like you're saying we need to exclude somebody. I mean, who are you trying to exclude? Oh, wait a minute. Here is.

00:21:54:05 - 00:22:17:03
Justin Jones
Yeah, You know, one of the things that I want to challenge our profession on is to really be deliberate about, you know, we get asked, I think in municipal government, you know, they get asked to do more with less all the time. There's always going to be constraints on budget, constraints on resources, constraints on space. We get asked to do more with less all the time.

00:22:17:26 - 00:23:04:13
Justin Jones
And the thing that I want to emphasize when it comes to intentional streets, is that intentional streets is an exercise in doing more with less. It is an exercise in envisioning the space that you have as serving a different purpose. It is it is creating a deliberate priority for the welcoming movement of of children in places where children are going to be of seniors, in places where seniors are going to be of bikes in corridors that are connected to places where bikes want to be, of communities of color, in places where they are living, so that they are not subjected to just massive numbers of vehicle throughput driving through their neighborhood.

00:23:04:13 - 00:23:30:12
Justin Jones
Because what we have seen is that every time we try and add more, every time that we add an outer lane to a four lane road, and then while we're doing that project, we also add cycle tracks onto the road. We're accommodating, we are accommodating people on bikes, we are accommodating people walking. We are, you know, sometimes we are accommodating communities of color in low income communities in our designs.

00:23:30:24 - 00:24:02:06
Justin Jones
But I haven't seen many designs in North America that are truly moving towards welcoming those users into the street space. And we have to start having the uncomfortable conversation. I've thought about the fact that when you welcome cars, you only can do accommodation at best. You know, an environment that is truly welcoming for cars by virtue of the speed, the power, the noise and the volume of cars that you get when you create a space that is welcoming to them.

00:24:02:22 - 00:24:42:20
Justin Jones
The result there is that you'll never really do better than accommodating people walking and cycling. And I cannot tell you the number of municipalities whose official plans or transportation master plans or other planning documents I reviewed have said we want to prioritize active transportation in our community and what they fail to do. And what I have yet to see is when we talk about prioritizing active transportation and creating those kinds of spaces for people to move at a human scale or interact with their neighbors or feel safe in their community, you know, without the fear of policing or high speed vehicles cutting through their neighborhoods.

00:24:42:20 - 00:25:09:13
Justin Jones
What I haven't seen in those is the importance of prioritizing the access to cars that we have given to every single street. You know, I think that we we often run into it where we insist essentially as a as a profession on providing cars de facto and by right access to every single square inch of pavement in every single community we build in North America.

00:25:10:08 - 00:25:33:21
Justin Jones
You know, when we build new subdivisions, it would be it would be absurd to think about building a new subdivision with with a you know, with residential streets that were that were off limits to anyone except for the people who live there. You know, we've been moving away from the idea of cul de sacs in North America. And I think that what I what I want to encourage people to think about is, is I think the cul de sac had something to tell us.

00:25:34:04 - 00:25:58:05
Justin Jones
The cul de sac told us that people didn't want to live on a street where cars were driving through their neighborhoods at all hours of the day. And so I think what we need to start doing with our with our existing streets, particularly in our built up urban environments, is we need to start seeing these are not streets that are for the use of people driving as their primary mode of transportation.

00:25:58:06 - 00:26:21:27
Justin Jones
These are the streets that are going to be to let kids have a safe and comfortable and convenient experience walking or biking to school that are going to allow the seniors in this neighborhood to go for a walk without fear of of someone speeding down their street and running them over that are going to create the kinds of spaces where communities of color can gather in their limited public space.

00:26:21:27 - 00:26:47:00
Justin Jones
Because we have, unfortunately, a terrible legacy in this in North America of of sending communities of color into the types of areas where they have either deficient or no parts to access. And the streets become the only public space that they are able to access. And the streets are heavily policed. And a lot of that goes back to to the idea of of law enforcement taking on traffic enforcement.

00:26:47:00 - 00:27:11:24
Justin Jones
And that has led to the expansion of of the police state in this in this continent. So I think that when we start to get intentional about what our streets look like and we start asking that foundational question, who are we welcoming and who are we accommodating and who are we excluding? You know, those are the kinds of questions that I think can get us to a place where where we've got better communities.

00:27:11:24 - 00:27:25:28
Justin Jones
But we really have to start asking them because the you know, I think that a lot of the time the development profession is not moving that way. And a lot of the time we're not seeing transportation planning moving that direction either.

00:27:25:28 - 00:28:07:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, and of course, this particular installation here is a great example of where, you know, we're putting up a temporary fix to, you know, try to accommodate or make up for the fact that the the roadway in this particular roadway, this particular street isn't that bad. I mean, it's not massively, massively wide. But at the same time, design wise, we could do some amazing things here from a design perspective which would really communicate if motor vehicles are allowed, would we really communicate that?

00:28:07:07 - 00:28:35:02
John Simmerman
By the way, you are not prioritized here. You need to proceed with, you know, extreme caution. There's a 30 kilometer per hour sign right there to the right. And, you know, a future design might not even need a sign. It might be, you know, very, very clear by the dimensions, by the materials that if a motor vehicle is allowed, you're going to be lucky if you're going to be able to go ten kilometers per hour.

00:28:35:10 - 00:28:50:12
John Simmerman
I mean, it's a completely different context. And in terms of the way that you do this in a way that doesn't require the barriers and the barricades and the signs because of the actual design of the streetscape.

00:28:51:21 - 00:29:15:28
Justin Jones
Yeah. And, you know, that's I think you kind of get at two things that I think is really exciting about the idea of Intentional streets. The first is that, you know, if we are intentional about how we are using our streets and we start to look at the network of streets in most of our communities in North America, and we start to ask which ones of those really need to be welcoming for cars.

00:29:16:26 - 00:30:03:01
Justin Jones
And we start to ask that question. I think that what it leads us to is it leads us to a place where we can create a high comfort, high quality, low cost facilities that are welcoming for people walking, cycling, wheeling all across North America. And and we can do it relatively quickly because, you know, while this is obviously a temporary installation, the school streets movement, I think that when we when we think about how we could do temporary installations of of streets that are more welcoming to people walking and cycling and less welcoming but more accommodating for cars, you know, there are there are streets all over our communities, particularly residential and quieter collector roads

00:30:03:13 - 00:30:44:08
Justin Jones
that would be immediately improved for access for people walking and cycling simply by taking a more intentional approach to how those streets are being used. And then I think that the the other thing that you identify is once we've got that initial conversation started in our communities, once we've started to look at our streets as public space again, and once we started to see them more as a potential extension of our front lawns, a place where we can gather, where we can connect with our neighbors, where we can meet our community, that's when I think the real, like creativity takes hold and we can start seeing all sorts of creative use of this public space

00:30:44:25 - 00:31:13:27
Justin Jones
that's going to much better serve our communities than a bunch of people sitting alone in their metal boxes, you know, driving past their neighbors houses. You know, I never made a friend from behind the windshield, not once. But I can tell you without a doubt that, you know, some of the best friendships that I've forged in my community have been forged because of my either my cargo bike or, you know, being out and walking and cycling or experiencing public space with my kids.

00:31:13:27 - 00:31:45:00
Justin Jones
And we are robbing ourselves of that through the design of our streets. And I think it is it is such a tragedy to me to see the epidemic of loneliness that is sweeping North America and know that we have simple solutions at our fingertips. We have a public space that is not being activated. We have public spaces that, because it is welcoming to cars, is completely inaccessible for for people to to experience their communities.

00:31:45:00 - 00:32:06:17
Justin Jones
And so I really want to I want to encourage people to adopt the language of of intentional ality when it comes to their street design to move beyond the idea of just saying, well, we want complete streets and to say what is the intention of our public space? What is our goal with that public space? Who is it serving?

00:32:06:27 - 00:32:23:02
Justin Jones
How is it failing the people that we want it to serve? And then how can we change it? Because those are the key things that we're not asking when it comes to our streets and our public spaces in North America. And I think that we are really paying a price for it at every level.

00:32:23:17 - 00:32:30:25
John Simmerman
Yeah, we're kind of also challenged in North America because of this dynamic.

00:32:30:25 - 00:32:32:27
Justin Jones
Yeah, this is oh.

00:32:32:27 - 00:32:38:10
John Simmerman
I'm in I'm a zoom in on this so people can get the real impact on this. This is ridiculous.

00:32:39:05 - 00:33:05:21
Justin Jones
Yeah. And, you know, I think a lot of this the reason I included this photo and this is, you know, my daughter and, you know, she's six years old in this photo and she's, you know, she's standing in front of a, you know, fairly large pickup truck. The reason I included this is that I think that we're also warmer, unintentional about the design of our public spaces.

00:33:06:11 - 00:33:31:09
Justin Jones
I think we also start to become unintentional about the impacts that our private choices have on how people use those public spaces. I don't think that there is a lot of people who know that front over collisions are one of the fastest rising causes of death in the United States and Canada, because we call them this innocuous thing.

00:33:31:09 - 00:33:48:26
Justin Jones
We call it a front over collision. And and horrifyingly, the most frequent front over collision is when someone gets into a truck like this and someone has a child like mine playing in their driveway. And it's it's a parent killing their own child.

00:33:48:26 - 00:33:49:03
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:33:49:09 - 00:33:51:06
Justin Jones
Yeah. Because of the choice of vehicle.

00:33:51:11 - 00:33:53:22
John Simmerman
Yeah. More often than not, that's exactly what it is.

00:33:53:22 - 00:34:26:22
Justin Jones
Yeah. And, and we are, we are sleepwalk walking through decisions like that without ever taking a step back to think about the consequences. Yeah. And I think that a lot of that stems from the fact that we are just so welcomed on our streets in our cars that it becomes any question that, of course I'll have a car, of course I'll drive, you know, a big truck.

00:34:27:10 - 00:35:06:29
Justin Jones
And I think that when we start to introduce intention in our decision making at every level of our transportation and urban planning systems, I think that we really do have a better chance of of stemming the tide of some of these these really negative outcomes that we are seeing across North America. And so, you know, that that that image that you that you showed, you know, it just it always reminds me of of how we're not we're not really always thinking through the the the overall outcomes of our decisions.

00:35:06:29 - 00:35:29:28
Justin Jones
And I think nowhere is that more visible than on our streets. We're not thinking about the fact that, you know, when we when we keep a residential street as as a through street that people can use as a as a bypass to an arterial road that's immediately adjacent to it, we don't think about the fact that what that does is limit the amount of of interaction that those neighbors can have on that street.

00:35:30:18 - 00:35:56:00
Justin Jones
We don't think about the fact that it increases the anxiety of the parents that are walking their students to school, their kids to school on that street. Because of that, the speed and volume of traffic. And even if the volume isn't that high, we don't think about the fact that even just the threat of high speed motor vehicle traffic kind of going down those streets leads to just a heightened level of anxiety when you're walking along the streets.

00:35:56:00 - 00:36:33:03
Justin Jones
You know, I, I when I walk with my daughters and, you know, I'm walking with two of them. I've got a four year old and a seven year old and I'm walking with two of them when I am walking in in the downtown of my community, I am on constant high alert, constantly on high alert, because if either of them gets too far ahead of me, too close to an intersection, if either of them drifts too far over onto the you know, on the sidewalk over are getting closer to to the to the vehicles and the live lanes, that is that is just like an anxiety inducing moment for any parent.

00:36:33:22 - 00:37:07:07
Justin Jones
And I don't think that we've had a conversation about the fact that it doesn't have to be that way. Yeah, we can create public spaces where children and families are welcomed. We know how to do that. We're pretty good at it when we put our mind to it. But what we haven't done is think about what it would look like if we welcomed children and families and people with disabilities and seniors into our public spaces and how that might mean that we just have to accommodate cars.

00:37:07:23 - 00:37:32:03
Justin Jones
Yeah, it's okay for some public spaces to just be good enough for people driving. And I think that that is the the, the point of the intentional streets idea that I've been coming forward with is that, you know, we don't have to make every single street great for cars, right? Because when we do when we make every single street great for cars, we make them at best just okay for people walking, cycling for children.

00:37:32:27 - 00:37:40:15
Justin Jones
And so I think that we can do better in our public space. And that's what Intentional Streets is about. You know, my hometown example.

00:37:40:21 - 00:38:01:12
John Simmerman
And here's the hometown example. And in, you know, one of the things that that we hear and we get pushback on the size of the the motor vehicles, the SUVs and the pickup trucks is that that, you know, no, we're we're we are intentional. We're buying this because this is an arms race. We want our family to be safe.

00:38:01:12 - 00:38:26:28
John Simmerman
And so we're you know, it's this ever increasing size of these motor vehicles with the the belief that, you know, at least it's safer for me. The occupant and my family, the occupants. And so I'm glad that you had mentioned that, you know, the that unintended consequence of the fact that, you know, you're you're inflicting harm to those around you and sometimes it's somebody within your own family.

00:38:26:28 - 00:38:42:05
John Simmerman
So I just wanted to put a final note on that and then come to this image, because you're you're so you're talking about intentional streets. You're talking about public spaces. So walk us through the reason why you wanted to share this this particular image.

00:38:42:05 - 00:39:02:06
Justin Jones
Yeah. So this this is you know, I was I was out for a ride and there's a, you know, kind of a standard painted bike lane on a on a street here in my hometown. And there are signs posted that there is no parking in the bike lane Monday to Friday. This was a Saturday. And so I was out.

00:39:02:28 - 00:39:34:15
Justin Jones
It might have been a Sunday, actually, because I think it's some church parking. And so, you know, I was I was out and I was riding and this was the result is that, you know, me riding in a in what is normally a relatively wide and relatively comfortable bike lane with my with my six year old daughter. You know, we had to we had to merge into a live lane of traffic because the intention of that street was even when we were accommodated, was still to make cars feel even more welcomed.

00:39:34:25 - 00:40:16:14
Justin Jones
So even the even the blank, even the minimal level of accommodation that is provided for for people at a human scale on some of our corridors, you know, it is still just overwhelmed by our our proceeding decision to welcome cars. And I think that that is like the piece that I really want to get to. You know, I really want to drive home when it comes to to the intentionality of our public spaces that, you know, this is this is kind of a microcosm of of everything that I'm talking about when it comes to two intentional streets, when we are welcoming to cars and when that is kind of one of our our first and

00:40:16:14 - 00:40:53:16
Justin Jones
foremost decision making criteria is to welcome cards. You know, we're never really going to get past accommodation for people walking and cycling. And, you know, I mean, of course, like I'll I'll, I'll say too that just around the corner from this, literally under a block away was a municipal parking lot that was that was essentially empty. And so when it comes to the kinds of decisions that we are making about who and why we are welcoming, I think that it is really important for us to be deliberate about saying, Well, so who are you excluding in these in these design decisions?

00:40:54:04 - 00:41:15:18
Justin Jones
Because when you know, when the town put up the signs that said, you know, no parking in these bike lanes, but only Monday to Friday, that was a deliberate choice. And there are deliberate choices at the heart of kind of every aspect of our of our roadway design system that I think we we can and should be questioning.

00:41:15:23 - 00:41:27:06
Justin Jones
This is a really good example of just the mindset that goes into that kind of sleepwalking through the way that we design and operate our public spaces.

00:41:27:29 - 00:41:33:27
John Simmerman
Yeah, So how do we navigate through this?

00:41:33:27 - 00:42:17:19
Justin Jones
I think the way that I want to encourage people to navigate through it and to to use the intentional Streets philosophy fee is to start asking questions about streets as public spaces in their communities, to start asking what does it mean when we create a street that is welcoming to people who walk or bike? I want us to imply in the same degree of intentionality to creating people focused streets that we do when we are creating highways we created just in the last few decades.

00:42:17:19 - 00:42:22:01
Justin Jones
We created the diverging diamond interchange. You familiar with this?

00:42:22:06 - 00:42:23:21
John Simmerman
Oh, yeah, definitely so.

00:42:23:29 - 00:42:31:18
Justin Jones
So from a from a pedestrian and cyclist perspective, a diverging diamond interchange is is is a nightmare. It's horrifying to try.

00:42:31:18 - 00:42:35:28
John Simmerman
And even when they try to make it a complete street, it's still a nightmare.

00:42:36:16 - 00:43:05:23
Justin Jones
Absolutely. Yeah. From from a from a vehicle throughput and road safety perspective. However, the diverging diamond interchange is amazing. It moves more vehicles through more safely than than other intersection designs at high speed roadways. Yeah. So when we design highways, we design them with barrier walls, we design them with prohibitions on people walking and cycling on them. We design them with wide smooth lanes.

00:43:05:23 - 00:43:45:20
Justin Jones
We design them with minimal interactions and intersections. We design them in such a way that they are extremely welcoming for people driving. What I want to challenge people to do is say, take that same sense of ingenuity, take that same sense of saying this is who we are designing to welcome. And then the fact that they're applying every single design decision along the road or sorry, along the street, I guess to align with that with that primary function of that corridor and say, let's apply that to children, let's apply that to seniors, let's apply that to communities of color, let's apply that to people walking.

00:43:46:01 - 00:44:14:04
Justin Jones
Let's apply that intentionality about how we are using our public space, that same degree of focus and ingenuity that we've displayed in creating a highway system that has become more and more safe over the years to creating a street system in our communities that serves the needs of the people who live there. Right. And that's what I really want people to take away from this, is that we have the skills to do this.

00:44:14:13 - 00:44:35:21
Justin Jones
We just haven't been asking our designers the right questions. And I think that when we start to when we start to see, you know, the I think a lot about about the infrastructure deficit, ideas that, you know, that strong towns and and Chuck put out there and the idea that you know we are going to see a generation of infrastructure the bill is going to come due on that pretty soon.

00:44:36:21 - 00:45:15:20
Justin Jones
You know, we are already seeing it happening. And and the you know, I think that the the overarching kind of ideal when it comes to to a lot of planning is is to do more. It's the idea of more is more. And I you know one of the one of the books that I read this year that was absolutely, you know, kind of game changing in terms of how I think about the world is is by Lighty Klotz and it's called the untapped power subtract the untapped power of doing less and and it is a really interesting read because what it encourages us to do is think about how subtraction can add to our lives

00:45:15:20 - 00:45:45:09
Justin Jones
and subtraction can add to our communities and. The more that I thought about this, the more that I thought the more spaces we subtract cars from in our communities, the more places we add people to. And that has really been part of what's been informing my discussion about Intentional Streets, because I think that we need to get to a place where we do identify some corridors that, you know, cars are going to be welcomed.

00:45:46:08 - 00:46:00:09
Justin Jones
We need to have some places still, you know, given the North American paradigm in the way that we are developed and where we're going in the next, you know, ten, 15, 20 years, we're going to need to have some streets where when we ask the question like, who is the user that we want to welcome, the answer is going to be cars.

00:46:00:09 - 00:46:29:00
Justin Jones
And that's fine, right? But where I draw issue is when the answer is always, every street needs to welcome cars. Exactly. And that's the question that I want people to get out, is that we will never do more with less. If cars are still allowed every single place in our communities, we will never get to a place where walking and cycling are prioritized, where walking and cycling are safe, convenient or comfortable, where children are able to get to school actively and safely, where seniors are able to move independently.

00:46:29:17 - 00:46:50:29
Justin Jones
We will never get to those places as long as we insist on having cars be welcomed on every street. And so I want us to get intentional about what our neighborhood streets look like. I want us to get intentional about what our collective roads look like. I want us to get intentional about what our arterial roads look like in some instances we are just going to accommodate people walking and cycling, right?

00:46:51:00 - 00:47:10:06
Justin Jones
Those are fine things to do on those big strokes. Like if that's what we have to do to create spaces that people can move safely by walking or biking along those corridors is just to accommodate while still welcoming cars right then. Then that's that's a decision that a community can come to. But right now we're not even having the discussion about whether that's a decision we want to make.

00:47:10:21 - 00:47:12:29
Justin Jones
Right. And we need to have that discussion.

00:47:13:14 - 00:47:33:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, I think one of the things that I like to do is, you know, is remind folks that, hey, streets are for people first and then you can kind of, you know, this this photo kind of comes to life in the sense that, okay, you know, this is clearly a residential street. It's it's got one up on my streets.

00:47:33:02 - 00:48:03:23
John Simmerman
My streets don't even have sidewalks on it. It's truly, you know, completely shared space, sort of a 1940s circa neighborhood. But we end up seeing very similar scenes to this of just families, you know, taking over the streetscape in the space. And ever since, you know, the pandemic, you know, we're basically into, you know, three years now of enjoying the fact that, you know, the people have taken over the streets.

00:48:03:25 - 00:48:50:01
John Simmerman
We've always had people walking and cycling and rolling and strolling through through the neighborhood. But it you know, it went up ten X and it stayed up. And what was interesting is how driver behavior adjusted. And we we can do better you know obviously as communities to to to take that next step to, you know, have some filter permeability and have some, you know, do some design things to help alleviate the, you know, the possibility so that parents like yourself aren't worried that there's going to be a speeding motorist who's doing a rat run through the neighborhood is going to, you know, you know, come in contact with our loved ones.

00:48:50:25 - 00:48:56:23
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about this photo and why you wanted to to use this as a platform for discussion.

00:48:57:29 - 00:49:18:08
Justin Jones
So this is that was this was an example from again, from from my hometown here in Collingwood, where we had a we had a pilot project where they did a one month project where they they essentially kind of put up signs that said, you know, this these closed local traffic only and they called it a bicycle priority street.

00:49:18:14 - 00:49:40:15
Justin Jones
And you know, what it ended up doing was, was creating quite a bit of of conversation within the community. But you know, the most important thing in my mind that it did was it created the idea that this street was primarily for for people who were walking and cycling and for the people who live there for the enjoyment of the people who live there.

00:49:40:26 - 00:50:06:22
Justin Jones
Right. And, you know, the the thing that that really hit home for me on this street was was just the the absolute sense of of joy that my daughter had when we were riding on it because she felt like she was able to ride safely. This has has traditionally been kind of one of the more stressful parts of our ride to school, given the the volume that there's there's three schools at the end of the street.

00:50:06:22 - 00:50:29:05
Justin Jones
And so, you know, the traffic in the morning and drop off can be relatively high and that traffic really dissipated. And I think that what what a street like this does when when this kind of measure goes in is it shows what is possible with a relatively small investment and a relatively small change in mindset about what a street is for.

00:50:30:02 - 00:50:51:05
Justin Jones
You know, no sooner did the pilot project out and the barrels Scott got taken down and everything kind of went back to normal. Then, you know, a week later, my daughter and I were riding to school and we were we were honked out and yelled out by a parent who was driving their high school student to school to get the F off the road.

00:50:52:05 - 00:51:29:11
Justin Jones
And and, you know, my my six year old daughter pulled over onto the side of the road and started crying and started walking her bike and, you know, I was I was mad in the moment with that individual who made that decision to yell at a parent and a six year old from their car. But in hindsight, I was more upset with the fact that we have designed our streets in such a way that it makes people feel that that space is theirs when they are in a car.

00:51:29:21 - 00:51:54:19
Justin Jones
Right. Because of how much we welcome cars on those streets. And I thought to myself, where else would it be acceptable for someone to tell a six year old to get the F out of public space, to stop occupying public space? Where else would it be acceptable for an adult to yell that at a six year old but on a street from their car?

00:51:55:15 - 00:52:37:16
Justin Jones
And those are the results of design decisions that we have made and we have not fully processed what that does to our sense of empathy, to our sense of understanding, to our sense of connection with people around us. And so, you know, I bring this photo up because I'm I'm saddened that the the community decided not to continue with the project because of what I would say was essentially no, there was no you know, I'll say it, there was absolutely no quantitative rationale behind removing something like this.

00:52:37:28 - 00:53:00:20
Justin Jones
But I think that what we did see was we saw fewer vehicles driving slower on this street and very little impact on the neighboring streets when it comes to volumes and speeds. So the vehicles just literally the trips just disappeared. And I think that that's what we fail to grasp when it comes to some of these these concepts around intentional streets.

00:53:00:20 - 00:53:22:23
Justin Jones
You know, when we when we are doing road reconstruction or we're doing a, you know, a below grade sewer repair or something in our communities, the town still largely works. That street is completely out of commission for people driving, but the town still largely works like people still can get around. Right. And and we haven't connected the dots I think between the fact that like, those kinds of things happen all the time.

00:53:22:29 - 00:53:23:09
John Simmerman
Right.

00:53:23:19 - 00:53:43:12
Justin Jones
But I think that it's important for us to for us to take a step back and say we have enough space that welcomes cars. We have enough streets that welcome cars that allow them to move effectively and efficiently through our communities. We should have some that also welcome children or people on bikes or seniors or people of mobility issues.

00:53:43:27 - 00:53:48:04
Justin Jones
And I think that that's really where where I want to get to with this.

00:53:48:20 - 00:54:28:25
John Simmerman
You know, to close this out, let's let's talk a little bit about the challenge of of really changing the narrative and changing the dynamic and in getting to healthier, more intentional designs to truly welcome people, to be able to occupy, you know, this public space. And the way that I want to frame this up is is sort of in the context of what you just mentioned in terms of like, you know, hey, when there's a need for sewer repair, etc., you know, shit happens and, you know, we adjust as humans.

00:54:28:25 - 00:54:57:19
John Simmerman
You know, we it's amazing what happens. And the same with the, you know, the trial program, you know, of of making the that a bicycle priority street. You know people adjust and you know the traffic speeds go down. And what we're seeing in in some cities around the globe is that we're seeing leadership. We're seeing people like Mayor Hidalgo in Paris just saying, hey, we've got a problem, we need to change and we're going to do this.

00:54:57:19 - 00:55:29:29
John Simmerman
And she plows forward and does it. And what do people do? They complain, they bitch, you know, they have a fit, but then they. Talk a little bit about what it's going to take for us to get to intentional street design and be able to, you know, I guess, give the politicians the the the leeway to be able to exert some political will and whether that that storm.

00:55:29:29 - 00:55:54:14
Justin Jones
So I think that the biggest thing we need to start doing with with this movement is to start having adult conversations about what is possible when it comes to our infrastructure, when it comes to how our mobility is prioritized and who is prioritized and how it impacts our communities. In a lot of communities, we are having conversations where people want to have their cake and eat it too.

00:55:55:02 - 00:56:22:27
Justin Jones
And with complete streets. I think that that is that is where we get into the trap, where we end up with with three cities just ever widening to add, you know, multi-use path, some bike lanes and bus lanes and everything else. And and what think we need to get serious about in our conversations is talking about the fact that if we continue to welcome cars we will eventually run out of space.

00:56:23:02 - 00:56:46:00
Justin Jones
It is just it is just simple math in terms of how our our limited public space can be allocated. So, you know, when it comes to trying to move the needle on this, I think that it it starts from a place of values. It starts from asking communities and residents, you know, what is it that you want to see your public spaces accomplish?

00:56:46:11 - 00:57:13:09
Justin Jones
What is it that you want to see expressed as a value in your community Through the design of our public spaces? And I continue using the term public spaces deliberately because I think that when we talk about streets or roads, I think that it is easy to default to that old style of of imagining that that space as prioritizing the movement of cars.

00:57:13:26 - 00:57:49:02
Justin Jones
And so I want to encourage people to conceptualize their streets as public space. I want them to understand that a street that is being prioritized for the movement of vehicles is no less valuable of a public good as a public space than the park that sits down on the waterfront. They are both public spaces that are, you know, that are in the public domain and that we should all have an open and honest conversation about how that public space is being used.

00:57:49:02 - 00:58:06:24
Justin Jones
And when we are using our public space for one purpose and one purpose only, and that is to, you know, kind of welcome cars and allow them to move through our neighborhoods in our communities at speed, what do we lose? And I think that those are the conversations that are not happening when it comes to our streets and our communities.

00:58:06:24 - 00:58:29:07
Justin Jones
So so that's kind of, you know, what I what I want to encourage people to do, because we've seen over and over again that when there are you know, when there are new lanes built, new traffic just fills it. We've also seen that when you start to deprioritized the movement of automobiles, people start to move in different ways.

00:58:29:20 - 00:58:52:28
Justin Jones
There's a reason why the Netherlands is consistently rated the best country in the world for drivers, and it's because don't prioritize driving on every single square inch of asphalt that they have. It is because they have they have come to a consensus as a as a nation about, you know, what is the what is the best way forward in terms of mobility.

00:58:53:10 - 00:59:28:05
Justin Jones
And they have some streets that are that are fast. They have some fast roads. They have some streets that are quiet. But they have been much more intentional about how those streets are designed than we have here in North America. And so I think that what we need to start doing is asking those questions and really building relationships with the communities where these streets are going through, because I think that's going to be a key for us moving forward as well, because what an intentional street looks like in Collingwood is going to look very different than what an intentional street is going to look like.

00:59:28:05 - 00:59:35:03
Justin Jones
An Austin is going to look very different than what an intentional street is going to look like in the south side of Chicago. You know, there are going to.

00:59:35:03 - 00:59:36:18
John Simmerman
Be potentially.

00:59:36:18 - 00:59:36:26
Justin Jones
Yeah.

00:59:37:05 - 01:00:01:02
John Simmerman
Absolutely. It depends on the context. You know, this is one of my favorite shots. We use this photo for our first episode. And, you know, this is you know, this is what I would say is an intentionally designed street in Utrecht, in the Netherlands. And it's a a place that truly welcomes people. It's a street for people. It's public space that is welcoming.

01:00:01:25 - 01:00:43:22
John Simmerman
And in all, by the way, if you happen to be a driver and you're driving, you know that car, that blue car, you are welcome. You are able you're not welcome, you're not invited, but you have that ability to be able to be there. But the environment clearly states and is clearly designed that you are the guest, which is the typical Fleet Street symbol that is used in the Netherlands as auto to just the auto is the guest, meaning that they need to give way, give priority to people who are more vulnerable in that street space.

01:00:44:05 - 01:00:50:29
John Simmerman
And I can think of no better way for us to close this off than to, you know, revisit this wonderful photo.

01:00:51:18 - 01:01:07:17
Justin Jones
Yeah, it's a good it's a good yeah. I mean, it brings that really back, you know, full circle. The the idea of Fleet Street really was the thing that got me, I think, started to think about this in terms of in terms of what those look like and how we can we can start bringing that concept more realistically to North America.

01:01:07:17 - 01:01:12:09
Justin Jones
And, you know, I think that this becomes an extension and expansion of that.

01:01:12:18 - 01:01:18:24
John Simmerman
Yeah, good stuff. Justin, thank you so very much. This is such a joy having you back on the Active Tales podcast.

01:01:19:07 - 01:01:21:00
Justin Jones
Hey, thanks for having me, John. I really appreciate it.

01:01:21:20 - 01:01:37:16
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Justin Jones and if you did remember, give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and be sure to share it with a friend. The best way for us to grow this movement is for you to pass it along to somebody you know that might enjoy this.

01:01:38:03 - 01:02:04:27
John Simmerman
And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just hit the subscription button down below and ring the notifications bell right next to it so you can customize your notification preferences. And one more thing, huge shout out to my Active Towns ambassadors for supporting my efforts out on Patreon, Buy me a coffee of YouTube Super Things, Buying things from the Active Towns store as well as making contributions to the nonprofit every little bit helps as much appreciate it.

01:02:05:01 - 01:02:32:07
John Simmerman
Thank you all so very much.