Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:18:01
Lenore Skenazy
The reason is that they're afraid their kids, something bad would happen to their kids, which is just this really hyper inflated sense of danger, or that their kids would be frustrated or unable to do these things, which, as we've discussed before, is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you never let them go do anything, they don't know how to do anything.

00:00:18:01 - 00:00:35:19
Lenore Skenazy
And anxiety is a cycle as well, which is like, oh, I worry that my kid might get lost or be hurt or scared or frustrated, so I'm not going to let them go. And then the kid starts thinking, well, I guess my parents don't trust me. I must be too, you know, dumb or endangered or incompetent or just why would I ever do that?

00:00:35:19 - 00:01:01:16
Lenore Skenazy
That sounds like it's something for an adult. And then the parents see the kid who's not saying, let me, you know, please let me ride my bike to help. Please let me go to the store. Please let me do something on my own. And then you add into the mix the fact that they can go anywhere without their parents and have fantastic adventures and hang out with their friends and make jokes and play games on the little screen, they don't have to leave.

00:01:01:18 - 00:01:15:11
Lenore Skenazy
So it just becomes a, you know, for the wall e existence where you're in your chair and you got your, your drink and your drink cup and you're watching something fun and that's it.

00:01:15:17 - 00:01:30:20
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, and welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman, and that is Lenore Skenazy from the Let Grow organization. And the book Free-Range Kids, let's get right to it with Lenore.

00:01:30:23 - 00:01:34:10
John Simmerman
Lenore, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Talents podcast.

00:01:34:13 - 00:01:36:21
Lenore Skenazy
Well, thank you, John. Go by John, right.

00:01:36:24 - 00:01:37:22
John Simmerman
I do.

00:01:37:24 - 00:01:39:10
Lenore Skenazy
Okay.

00:01:39:13 - 00:01:53:03
John Simmerman
I'm not a Jonathan, but I'm done. Got it. I love giving my guest just an opportunity to introduce themselves. Please take about 30s and tell the audience who the heck you are.

00:01:53:05 - 00:02:17:22
Lenore Skenazy
Oh, sure. well, if you Google America's worst mom, there I am. I got that name because I let my nine year old, you active townspeople appreciate this. Ride the subway by himself. I wrote a column about it, and two days later, I was on the Today Show, MSNBC, Fox News, and NPR. and that's when I started my blog, Free-range kids to say, actually, our kids are safer and smarter than our culture gives them credit for.

00:02:17:24 - 00:02:46:03
Lenore Skenazy
And then about five years ago, Jonathan Height is popular now because of the anxious generation. And Daniel Shukman, philanthropist and, and free speech crusader, came to me and said, we have to start a nonprofit together to help kids grow up more resilient, resourceful, confident. And I said, okay. And I looked and one more person, Peter Gray, who has spent his career studying the importance of free play, free independent play without parents directing every, you know, every activity.

00:02:46:05 - 00:02:55:24
Lenore Skenazy
And together we founded Let grow, not let it grow, not let's go. Not like let it go. Like the song says, it just let grow.

00:02:55:26 - 00:03:26:13
John Simmerman
I love it, I love it, yes. And in fact, we've got the website, ready to go right here. And, and when we scroll down, we see that there's lots and lots of wonderful, information here on the movement and what you all are trying to do. And as you mentioned, you, you sort of this has been a bit of an evolution of going from what was sort of branded under Free-range kids and, and that and that was what was that like 12 years ago when Free-range.

00:03:26:13 - 00:03:29:03
Lenore Skenazy
Kids, nine year old is 26. So do the math.

00:03:29:06 - 00:03:42:07
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. So it's been a while now take us back. Take us back to that original initial moment. and it was your younger son, right? Max or. No. Is he.

00:03:42:09 - 00:04:00:06
Lenore Skenazy
Is he very good? Oh my goodness. Yeah. So yeah. So is he was nine. He'd been bugging me and my husband to let him take the subway home from someplace that we dropped him off at. They'd never been there before. And finally we decided okay. And so one sunny Sunday, I took him to a fancy department store. Bloomingdales.

00:04:00:06 - 00:04:17:02
Lenore Skenazy
Nice part of town. And I said, okay, goodbye. I'm going the other way. And I left him there because it's right above a subway stop. We're on the subways all the time. That's how we get around. And so he did, and he went down to the subway. He found his way to 34th Street, which is the Miracle Street, and then also a very slow bus street.

00:04:17:09 - 00:04:39:13
Lenore Skenazy
And the bus slowly goes across town and finally deposits you at our apartment complex. And he came into the house, the apartment, you know, levitating with pride, with relief that he'd been allowed to do something that relieved that he was alive. But relief that like a milestone had been reached. But I didn't write about it immediately because it was our milestone.

00:04:39:13 - 00:04:51:15
Lenore Skenazy
It wasn't for public consumption or anything. But a couple months later, when I had nothing to write about, I wrote about why I let my nine year old ride the subway alone. And that was the inciting incident.

00:04:51:17 - 00:05:06:09
John Simmerman
Yeah, you must have felt like you just caught a tiger by a tail when that whole sort of unraveling and people started, you know, calling on you and inviting you to come on the today show and other shows, etc., etc..

00:05:06:12 - 00:05:28:16
Lenore Skenazy
Yeah, I mean, I was I was happy about it. and in one sense in that I, I'd spent my career as a newspaper reporter most of the time at the New York Daily News, and I feel like I have reality on my side. I mean, I would travel around the city all the time. Sometimes I would get off the at just a random subway stop, and I wouldn't let myself go back until I'd found a story.

00:05:28:16 - 00:05:57:15
Lenore Skenazy
And by a story, I mean something inspiring and great. Not a crime, not not a tragedy. It was always like, oh my God, this guy started. You made his own line of perfumes. It's 1922, or this guy is blind and he's a gym teacher, or wow, this lady started her own business. This guy does murals of local people and so I felt like rather than living in my head and living in, like the land of those who, you know, consume a lot of scary.

00:05:57:22 - 00:06:17:22
Lenore Skenazy
The first part of the paper is all tragedy. And then there comes the second part of the paper. And I always wrote for the second part of the paper, which is, you know, recipes and interesting dog stories and funny things and contests and, just all the parts that I loved and I, I felt like I have met so many people in so many neighborhoods that people say, oh my God, I would never go there.

00:06:17:22 - 00:06:45:19
Lenore Skenazy
It's like, well, I've gone there and I've met the guy who made his own perfume, or the lady who's, you know, the blind gym teacher. And so, it was it was a great opportunity for me to bring people into what I've actually seen and also done my research on, which is crime not not being nearly the issue that people make it to be, and certainly not strange or danger and child snatching, which I think that's sort of faded at the moment.

00:06:45:19 - 00:07:07:25
Lenore Skenazy
I think that people are a little less worried about the man in the white van, maybe because they become so, so, so used to never letting their kids out of the house that it doesn't even, you know, rise as an issue. And now everybody's worried instead about their kids on screens. And I'm like, well, if you knew that the man in the white van wasn't a problem and you do think that screens are a problem, let's flip it.

00:07:07:25 - 00:07:28:08
Lenore Skenazy
And how bad? Instead of protecting your kids from the man in the van, you open the door and you let the kids out. And then they're actually in the world having adventures, and they're pretty safe. Nobody's ever perfectly safe anywhere you could, you know, fall down the stairs. So today, the piece I'm writing and. Oh, yeah, here I have it.

00:07:28:08 - 00:07:48:25
Lenore Skenazy
So some lady wrote to me yesterday and sent me. Let me see if I could find it. The the rules that her local police department, she's in a town in Indiana. That's one of the ten safest towns in Indiana. So we're already in Indiana, and then we're safe. And the police department wrote, dear parents and guardians, as we begin the summer break.

00:07:48:27 - 00:08:11:13
Lenore Skenazy
And you know, it's not going to be like let kids roam, it's great. We all remember our childhoods. Hallelujah! Let them out. It's, while the, school will have more free, the children will have more free time and may be tempted to explore new areas, try new things, and do things they wouldn't normally do. It's like, isn't that good to like.

00:08:11:15 - 00:08:11:23
John Simmerman
Up.

00:08:11:29 - 00:08:35:08
Lenore Skenazy
Right? And, of course they say that's terrible and that, you know, be out, be on the alert for that, you know, don't have your supervision, make supervision maybe more relaxed, which is bad. And then they said, turn to the police department. And then they say, it's essential to know the friends and families of your children's peers and it's you're responsible adults supervise any activities or outings and and that's a lie.

00:08:35:10 - 00:09:02:03
Lenore Skenazy
It is not essential to have adults supervising everything that children do. And in fact, I think that's why children are going crazy. And I also think that's why they're going to screens, because in screens they have freedom and their parents aren't there. And also they have none of that in the outside world. So I'm writing this little piece going like, like, so what would it mean if you're, if adults were supervising every summer activity like this suggests of any, any child, it's like, I'll just sit here in the corner of your treehouse.

00:09:02:07 - 00:09:22:17
Lenore Skenazy
You know, you guys can do your pinky blood brothers. Without me, I won't notice. Oh, don't you wash your hands. yeah. Well, here, I brought some with, you know, having an adult there changes literally everything. And to pretend otherwise is to be, is to belie your own reality. Look at your childhood. What do you wish you'd been?

00:09:22:18 - 00:09:45:05
Lenore Skenazy
You wish your mom had been paddling and you'd been on the back of the bike, you know, as you went to the beach or the library or to the the quarry or to the the vacant lot, you know. Do you wish your mom was sitting there as you climbed things? Do you wish she always brought a snack and and the wipes and, you know, an educational book and pointed out that, like, oh, you're climbing a brick wall.

00:09:45:05 - 00:10:20:23
Lenore Skenazy
Brick was originally invented. And you don't you don't need that. You don't want that. And in fact, it ruins so much of the child development that's supposed to be going on when you do things with friends on your own, figuring stuff out, even figuring out risk. So I'll just natter on for one more second, which is there's a theory that, presented by these three Georgetown professors that kids are getting their independence so late, like, normally ages, like, I'd say 5 to 12 are sort of the years of exploration and independence, you know, doing things and like, oh, that was too scary or oh, that was easier.

00:10:20:23 - 00:10:42:10
Lenore Skenazy
Oh, I climbed higher. All these things or I dare you to doing these little risk taking activities, which is how your brain wires itself for a couple things. It starts seeing what is really dangerous and what isn't. And and it also this is just explained to me in my another professor, Mariana Russo, who I would highly recommend talking to at the University of British Columbia.

00:10:42:12 - 00:10:59:11
Lenore Skenazy
it's like you have to get used to the slight trepidation and fear which floods your body with all these, like, you know, the heart racing and the, you know, the freezing or whatever. You have to get used to that in small doses. Otherwise, anytime you do get a small dose later on, you think it's a big dose, right?

00:10:59:11 - 00:11:24:06
Lenore Skenazy
Because everything is scary. And the study that was done at Georgetown asked college students in Canada and America versus Turkey and Russia to describe a risky or a dangerous situation, a dicey situation. And in Russia they were saying like, well, when a drunk guy is coming down the street with a broken bottle in his hand and coming after you and, you know, singing at the top of his lungs and wants to kill someone.

00:11:24:09 - 00:11:42:29
Lenore Skenazy
And then in America, they were saying, like, when you're alone at a cafe or taking an Uber, and I feel bad because you don't want kids to feel that anxious. Anxiety is the hallmark of this generation. And and you'd be anxious, too, if you were told that everything was too dangerous for you to do alone.

00:11:43:01 - 00:11:53:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And the big part of of anxiety and in and in going to the website here, the Anxious Generation website, it.

00:11:53:07 - 00:11:54:08
Lenore Skenazy
Actually looks like popcorn.

00:11:54:08 - 00:11:56:27
John Simmerman
Here is.

00:11:57:00 - 00:11:59:02
Lenore Skenazy
Okay, Facebook.

00:11:59:04 - 00:12:38:19
John Simmerman
one of the interesting things too about anxiety is, is that it's not like you were describing. It's not that that acute situation of of where you get a quick hit of it. This is something that's pervasive. And you talk about this in your book of, you know, one of the challenges that that parents have, especially moms of it's that constant level of trepidation and anxiety and, and there's a reason why anxiety and depression or so closely linked, you know, when we look at it biologically and medically, and so that it's an important thing, I think to, to reinforce is that this is something that just it's there, it's out there, it's pervasive

00:12:38:19 - 00:13:19:12
John Simmerman
of this book though, is is very, very interesting. I, I'm a huge Jonathan Height fan. I read everything that he puts out. I usually get it on audible when I walk around the neighborhood and listen to it. yeah. Well, yeah. And and I want to tell you this too. In his first couple books, I was still living in Hawaii at the time, and so I was actually landscaping and doing work out in the front yard, listening to to his books and, and so when he, when he put the last two books had been are very, very much, in theme with what we're talking about and, and specifically the Anxious Generation book

00:13:19:12 - 00:13:38:27
John Simmerman
here. You really prompted me to reach out to you and and the reason why is because you are actually, you know, featured in the book, and he mentions you a couple of times, and you're now, on the you know, that you've you're mentioned here at the mission statement about the anxious generation. There's Jonathan Haidt, Jonathan. And then here you are.

00:13:39:00 - 00:14:02:22
John Simmerman
And he talks about that, that that moment two that you just mentioned of, you know, hey, let's we need to do something. We need to pull together an initiative, a project, a nonprofit and let grow, you know, was really born and and you mentioned it several times, the screens. And that's really what this book is really all about.

00:14:02:24 - 00:14:30:02
John Simmerman
But as a proxy, because you, you had you had mentioned it there is that what kids have lost? What youth has lost is life in IRL the real world out there. And and, and it's, you know, come to the screens. Now, I'm going to say this because I'm a content creator, I'm a YouTube content creator. So I'm part of the issue.

00:14:30:04 - 00:14:47:28
John Simmerman
I'm producing what I'm putting out. Yeah, yeah. So I just want to put that out there. Yeah, I get it, I get it, folks. If you're if you're if you're trolls and you're starting to say, you're just a hypocrite. No, no, no, I totally get it. I try to inspire people to. Okay, now put the screens down and get outside.

00:14:48:00 - 00:15:29:00
John Simmerman
Go have some fun. but yeah, I just wanted to to kind of close that loop that that's exactly that connection. And that's how, I learned about you, because I've used the term free range kids for over a decade, but never read the book. I've never had children, I've never had children. And so I've just I've channeled the spirit in the ethos of free range kids because of the content that I'm creating and how we are trying to help cities get inspired, to build places that really embrace all ages and abilities and get people moving in the real world.

00:15:29:02 - 00:15:48:18
Lenore Skenazy
Right? So before the launch of his book, the publicist for his team said, come up with a phrase that explains where you fit it, because we're actually at like, bro, we're screen neutral. Like, there's good things about screens, there's terrible things about screens, and there are a million people talking about screens and writing about screens and fighting screens.

00:15:48:18 - 00:16:18:12
Lenore Skenazy
I'm speaking at a group tonight. but weirdly, there aren't a million group saying, excuse me, does anybody remember their childhood? Weren't they grateful for time outside? Weren't they happy that they got to, you know, walk to school or play sometimes and not always be in an organized activity and not always be supervised and assisted. So where that side and the phrase that we came up with, which is, is this which is to save the anxious generation, you just have to open the door and say, be home by dinner.

00:16:18:15 - 00:16:49:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Now, in your book, and I can't remember if, if Jonathan has it in his book, but it certainly inspired me to think of some of the things that I've observed and I've, of have documented over the years and, specifically when I'm traveling in the Netherlands, I'm just blown away by the, the, the freedom that that exists out there for the younger generations.

00:16:49:27 - 00:17:14:10
John Simmerman
And it's, you know, you mentioned it in the book. It's taught at a very, very young age, out on the streets of, of, of the Netherlands. you know, they have an expectation that kids will be able to navigate their neighborhoods, get to school, get to their sports activities, get to, their friends houses, other meaningful destinations on their own.

00:17:14:12 - 00:17:33:08
John Simmerman
many of the municipalities do have, a test that they take, right around 11 or 12 years old, which can demonstrate competency, that they can control their bicycle, out on the open roadways and on the pathways that they can navigate. And, and it's it's a wonderful.

00:17:33:08 - 00:17:35:21
Lenore Skenazy
Thing I tell 11, I would bet it was younger.

00:17:35:21 - 00:17:56:14
John Simmerman
Well, by that time they're, they're, they're almost all, you know, been doing it for a long time. And so I think what it is, is, is at that level of 1112 that it's like that final check mark of, of like, okay, just not making sure that, you know, there were some helicopter parents out there, even here in the Netherlands, that were like sheltering them.

00:17:56:14 - 00:18:16:14
John Simmerman
And they didn't learn these skills because there is that expectation that by the time they're getting into, into the upper grades, into high school, whatever, they're going to be traveling longer distances that the schools are going to be further and further out. And so a ten kilometer, an eight kilometer, journey to a high school is going to be that much more likely.

00:18:16:14 - 00:18:26:05
John Simmerman
And so I think that's probably what it is. But yeah, I know I see little, little ones, you know, venturing and exploring all the time.

00:18:26:08 - 00:18:28:11
Lenore Skenazy
I think have you heard of the dropping.

00:18:28:11 - 00:18:47:27
John Simmerman
I read, yeah. No. In your book. Yeah. Totally. That the dropping is, is fabulous. Why don't you explain what the dropping is and then I'm going to actually queue up a video that I shot. riding between Utrecht and, the village of Halton. and, and it's just a, just a, it's kind of a chill little nature video of me riding through the countryside.

00:18:48:03 - 00:18:54:01
John Simmerman
And as I'm doing it, there's just like kids going, you know, passing by. But yeah, exploring with the dropping. Yeah.

00:18:54:07 - 00:19:32:27
Lenore Skenazy
This is they're really children. Like, so the dropping is a tradition that I don't know how long it goes back, but everybody remembers it from their childhood and still does it today in the Netherlands, where some night, I don't know, it's all everybody always on the same night or not. parents take a group of their kids who are like between the ages of nine, 11, 12 and a couple others and drop them and dropping in the middle of a actually at the roadside, I think, the side of a forest and the kids must go through the woods somehow and find their way to the base camp, and there's no adult with them.

00:19:32:29 - 00:19:51:13
Lenore Skenazy
And it is a real forest, and it is really night and off they go. And only recently they started giving one of them a phone. Because we live in this era and nobody can imagine children doing anything without one. but until very recently it was, I guess maybe you had a compass, a flashlight, maybe some matches.

00:19:51:13 - 00:20:11:29
Lenore Skenazy
But you did not have an adult and you did not have a straight shot from, you know, like walking down the path and and there's the campfire and you can see it 200ft ahead. And the times New York Times did a story on this several years ago that was just amazing because, a reporter did, I guess, follow or watched from a distance.

00:20:11:29 - 00:20:29:03
Lenore Skenazy
These kids wandering, and they kept missing the camp. And it was 10:00 when they were dropped off, and it was 2 or 3 in the morning when they found their way to the campfire and they were too tired to even eat. And then, of course, the reporter was there in the morning when the kids were just shoveling and food, and they said, what happened?

00:20:29:03 - 00:20:50:13
Lenore Skenazy
It's like, well, you know, it was really hard and it was confusing and it was cold a little scary, but what could we do? And that was so amazing because what could they do? They could only rely on themselves. And the confidence that the kids get from that must be superb. But the confidence that the parents have and then have reinforced is really great.

00:20:50:13 - 00:21:07:19
Lenore Skenazy
And maybe you don't even have a ton of confidence in your kids to begin with, but it is the social norm to let them go. And by letting them go, then you get this real euphoric hint of like, look at what my kid can do, what it was 3 a.m.. You know, they've just been wandering around. They've been scared.

00:21:07:19 - 00:21:30:14
Lenore Skenazy
They'd heard weird noises. They were lost. They were sad. They were worried. But they had to persevere. That's my kid. And that does wonders for the parents sense of what their kid is capable of. And I thought the most poignant part of that article was that, the reporter talked to several Dutch parents who were surprised that this was not done everywhere.

00:21:30:16 - 00:21:54:07
Lenore Skenazy
They thought, of course, this is just, you know, a rite of passage. And one of the things, John has made me think about, John Height is he studied a lot of the wisdom of ancient cultures, you know, from pre Socrates to, I don't know, on a rant, whatever. But there's, a rite of passage is such a good idea because then you and your kids are preparing for it.

00:21:54:07 - 00:22:16:29
Lenore Skenazy
And what when it happens, it's away from the parents. Usually it's with another group of adults who initiates the kids and says, you know, you're leaving behind childhood. You're not leaving behind your your love for your parents or your need for your parents, but you are leaving behind your utter dependency on your parents and becoming a person until a person capable of an inner locus of control.

00:22:17:01 - 00:22:49:12
Lenore Skenazy
And we never give kids that inner locus of control when we are with them all the time, either physically like the police department was recommending, or electronically by constantly checking in and tracking and, monitoring everything they do. And so the bigger picture is that we really lost trust that our kids can do anything safely, that our communities are safe, that that our kids will have any kind of problem solving capabilities or tolerance for the frustration or the fear.

00:22:49:15 - 00:23:27:12
Lenore Skenazy
And so we jump in to help them and thereby deprive them of the opportunities they need to develop the competence, the confidence, the familiarity with a little bit of fear and frustration that they know they can get to the other side. So it's a vicious circle, and that's what Lego was founded to, to interrupt, to bring back confidence in kids ability to be out in the world and also in the idea that when they're playing and they're not being coached, there's not a teacher there, there's not, somebody assisting and intervening in any kind of sticky situation that kids can figure this out.

00:23:27:12 - 00:23:33:27
Lenore Skenazy
And when they do, that's part of the building up the milestones of becoming a functioning human.

00:23:34:00 - 00:24:03:04
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting too, that you mentioned, you know, what John had been talking about in terms of the rites of passage. It leads me to, to to recall that one of the things that we've done in, in our society is probably the only true rites of passage that that we have for children over the last 60, 70, 80 years is getting a driver's license truly.

00:24:03:06 - 00:24:40:09
John Simmerman
And it's interesting now too, because we're seeing the data saying that the current younger generations are not following through and getting their driver's license, you know, mainly because they value their screen. It's one of it's, it's hard to like say this is yeah, this is this is definitive. But one of the things when they say when they say rate rate what you value and what you think they really they're attached to their their feet, their screen, their iPhone, their, their, their, you know, whatever phone that is.

00:24:40:11 - 00:25:04:28
John Simmerman
But, you know, it's interesting and I don't know that you can you can make that causation. You know, there might be a correlation there. But what we are seeing though was we're seeing a delaying of of the young adults, you know, becoming mobile with a car. And for those of us in the active transportation advocacy world where like, that's kind of cool.

00:25:04:28 - 00:25:08:04
Lenore Skenazy
Yeah. Because like walk or bike. Right.

00:25:08:06 - 00:25:43:25
John Simmerman
Exactly. Or or in learning how to use it. Yeah. And learning how to use transit. ultimately, though, I would much prefer that they not live these helicoptered, sheltered lives where they don't have free range as younger kids, you know, in to the point where, you know, they have that level of, of freedom and, ability to explore their communities, either solo or with their pack of friends, you know, on bikes, all are kind of like, you know, for me, I'm, I'm nearly 60.

00:25:43:25 - 00:26:07:24
John Simmerman
So I remember as a kid doing that of being able to explore. And I lived on a ranch. I was I was pretty far outside of town. And so I would have my little pack of, friends that were also on the neighboring ranches and whatever. And then we'd all grab our swings and and take off and explore and bomb around on the gravel roads, and, and getting into all sorts of other fun trouble.

00:26:07:26 - 00:26:31:27
John Simmerman
but, you know, it was it was so enriching there. So I do wonder about that, you know, that the rites of passage and and, and and I don't, I don't know where I wanted to go with that other than to say that, you know, one of the things that I was going to say is that, you know, this is that video that that I mentioned and so this is me just following, there's a couple of middle schoolers just right ahead of me here.

00:26:31:28 - 00:26:35:15
Lenore Skenazy
Lucky one arrested buddy. And yeah, I know.

00:26:35:17 - 00:27:00:13
John Simmerman
But in in this, you can tell this is a two way cycle track between the the city of Helton or excuse me, the city of Utrecht and the village of Halton. Halton was an intentionally, built community, that was designed in the 1970s, built in the 1980s. And it's been, you know, built as a quote unquote, car free suburb, a community.

00:27:00:16 - 00:27:33:06
John Simmerman
And it's not really car free. I use the square quotes because, in truth, many of the residents own vehicles, motor vehicles, but they're, but they're parked around the ring. And so within the the actual village, within the city, you know, they're the cars are penetrating. And so they are, you know, we're sort of getting to the, the outskirts of the village now, and you can see the path, the feet will sort of, you know, wander around.

00:27:33:13 - 00:28:00:03
John Simmerman
Once you get into the actual village itself, you just you're blown away by just the the number of kids who are, you know, coming by and, and everything. And we just saw an older couple there, older adults going by too. And so when I, when I talk about from, from an active town's perspective of trying to in encourage communities to embrace this concept of mobility choice for all ages and abilities.

00:28:00:06 - 00:28:15:01
John Simmerman
This is kind of what I'm talking about. So, you know, whether you're talking about your eight year olds out there, you know, exploring with their other eight year old friends or your, your parents or grandparents who are 88 is doing the same. Yeah. Yeah.

00:28:15:03 - 00:28:42:07
Lenore Skenazy
No. It's great. It's enviable. What can I say? You know, long live Huyton. It seems just fantastic. you know, the, the chain, there's a bunch of barriers in America to even seeing kids riding their bikes down the block or to a friend's house. Yeah. the University of Michigan, does a poll every month, with the Children's Hospital.

00:28:42:09 - 00:29:03:28
Lenore Skenazy
And they did one in September, and they were interested in children and independence. And they asked the parents, basically kids under age 11, you know, how important is independence? And they all said it's very important. And we want our kids to start doing more on their own and on and on. And then they asked them, well, okay, let's let's find out specifically what do you allow them to do?

00:29:03:28 - 00:29:19:20
Lenore Skenazy
And they asked the parents of the 9 to 11 year olds, would you let them play at a park with a friend? And the majority said, oh, no. would you let them walk to a friend's house? No. Would you let them? What was one of the other ones? trick or treat. 85% said no, not without an adult.

00:29:19:23 - 00:29:43:08
Lenore Skenazy
And 50% of them said no to the question. Would you let your eight? Would you let your 9 to 11 year old go to another aisle at the store? So you talk about a lack of mobility. I mean, if you can't even go to another aisle at a store, that's an enclosed place. that's, that's that's like you're frozen, or velcroed to your parents.

00:29:43:11 - 00:30:11:19
Lenore Skenazy
And the underlying reason they're, they ask, you know, is a danger is is it? You're in a dangerous neighborhood and 17% said yes, but the rest said no, and it's still the majority that won't let them do anything. And so the reason is that they're afraid their kids, something bad would happen to their kids, which is just this really hyper inflated sense of danger, or that their kids would be frustrated or unable to do these things, which, as we've discussed before, is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:30:11:19 - 00:30:26:19
Lenore Skenazy
If you never let them go do anything, they don't know how to do anything. And anxiety is a cycle as well, which is like, oh, I worry that my kid might get lost or be hurt or scared or frustrated, so I'm not going to let them go. And then the kid starts thinking, well, I guess my parents don't trust me.

00:30:26:19 - 00:30:43:26
Lenore Skenazy
I must be too, you know, dumb or endangered or incompetent or just why would I ever do that? That sounds like something for an adult. And then the parents see the kid who's not saying, let me, you know, please let me ride my bike to help. Please let me go to the store. Please let me do something on my own.

00:30:43:29 - 00:31:12:18
Lenore Skenazy
And then you add into the mix the fact that they can go anywhere without their parents and have fantastic adventures and hang out with their friends and make jokes and play games on the little screen, they don't have to leave. So it just becomes a, you know, for the wall e existence where you're in your chair and you got your, your drink and your drink cup and you're watching something fun and that's it.

00:31:12:20 - 00:31:38:11
Lenore Skenazy
but I did want to say that I once heard somebody say one thing about the, why kids aren't getting their licenses so soon, and they pointed out that it's not just that they can escape to a screen, and it's not just that they've had no mobility and so they don't even dream of it. also the the graduated requirements for, for driving cars, like when I got my license, I could go anywhere at any time with anyone.

00:31:38:13 - 00:31:56:09
Lenore Skenazy
And now it's like, well, you can't go out after nine or before 4 or 5 in the morning, and you can only drive one relative for the first six months, and then one friend and one relative for the next six months. So it's not like it's freedom handed to you with a driver's license. It's freedom with a lot of restrictions on exactly what you might want to do.

00:31:56:09 - 00:32:00:26
Lenore Skenazy
And so it's like, well, great, you know, I get it. And then I still can't do anything for a year. Screw that.

00:32:00:28 - 00:32:07:17
John Simmerman
Yeah. You know, you were just talking about, you know, the, the ability to roam. And so that brought up this is.

00:32:07:20 - 00:32:34:15
Lenore Skenazy
My favorite story. Whenever I tweet this it gets like a million retweets. It's the most visual wonderful thing. And I, I sort of wondered if we could do something on a large scale in America on this. Or maybe your listeners could do this and send in maps, to you, because this is the famous Daily Mail article, probably the only Daily Mail article you hear on intellectual podcasts that, that is how children lost the right to roam and for generations.

00:32:34:15 - 00:32:40:08
Lenore Skenazy
And the reporter had the genius idea. Have you talked about this so much that I'm explaining something that everybody's seen a million times?

00:32:40:08 - 00:32:47:00
John Simmerman
You know, it's been a while. I had Tim Gill on and we were talking in this came up during his, episode. Yeah.

00:32:47:02 - 00:33:06:08
Lenore Skenazy
Yeah. And it's his country. Anyways, it was a reporter asked a, an 88 year old great grandfather how far he used to roam as a kid. And that's that giant, sort of boomerang shape. Their, their triangle, which was a six mile radius. And then they asked, his son, who was 66, a grandpa, how far he walked.

00:33:06:08 - 00:33:28:19
Lenore Skenazy
And that was the next largest circle. And then they asked the mom, who was in her 40s, how far she walked. And that was a small circle over there. Vicki, age eight, was allowed to walk like to the swimming pool a half mile away. And then she doesn't let her son, I think, I can't remember, she doesn't let him go down the further than off the block, doesn't let him off the block or.

00:33:28:21 - 00:33:33:12
John Simmerman
Yeah, I want you to Lily to the end of the street. Like at 300 yards.

00:33:33:14 - 00:33:54:16
Lenore Skenazy
Right? Yeah. And and so what I like to pair this with, is, first of all, your own memories. but then also. So I said, like, I was founded by four people. And one of them, I'd say one has had a great deal of influence on John Height. And you should have on your podcast is, Peter Gray, great guy, who wrote the book Free to Learn.

00:33:54:16 - 00:34:22:29
Lenore Skenazy
He's a professor of psychology and neuroscience at Boston College who has studied the importance of free play. And he wrote a piece that was published in the Journal of Pediatrics this fall, with two other scientists, anthropologists, whatever that was called. And I can't remember the exact title, but it was basically the decline in children's mobility and the increase in, mental issues, you know, depression, anxiety, and I would say passivity in, in the decades since the 70s.

00:34:23:01 - 00:34:47:04
Lenore Skenazy
So the interesting thing about that is that it proves that it's not just correlation, that as kids mobility went down there, their depression and anxiety went up. But it was also happening before the fact, which is what makes the job of like grow even a little naughtier because even if you get rid of every phone, even if every parent signs a pledge, I will never get my kid a phone until they move out.

00:34:47:07 - 00:35:18:27
Lenore Skenazy
first of all, I'm not sure them about, but also that it's not just taking away phones, it's going to change the culture. Because if you can't let the kids ride their bikes someplace, let them walk to the store, let them go to another aisle and get you a can of peas. If you literally can't let go, then it's actually a lot more boring and awful for the parents and the kids, because it means that you just have to be with them, entertaining them because they don't have their phones, or taking them to an organized activity because you don't trust them with time on their own.

00:35:19:02 - 00:35:48:03
Lenore Skenazy
Which brings me to Legos. Two problem solving. Three initiatives that we recommend that all schools and also all parents do. But but we like to have schools adopt our programs because then you're changing a whole bunch of kids and a whole bunch of parents at once. So the two things are this. One is the lead grow experience. It's when kids get a homework assignment that says, go home and do something new on your own with your parent's permission.

00:35:48:03 - 00:36:04:13
Lenore Skenazy
I'm trying to hold on my hand there. but without your parents. And so they they have to come up with something to do, and we give them a list of ideas. But of course, the list is endless. You know, whatever you want to do, you can climb a tree, make dinner, go to the store, walk to a friend's house, trick or treat.

00:36:04:16 - 00:36:33:04
Lenore Skenazy
probably on October 31st. and yeah, it's because you have this on a, I think a phone screen. Yeah. Anyways, high school programs and and on a bigger screen, it would have a thing across the top of Tabitha's school programs. But anyway, so it's the Lego experience, and teachers give this to the students, and then it becomes, a very easy way for a bunch of parents to let go at once, because it's not their idea.

00:36:33:04 - 00:36:54:05
Lenore Skenazy
They're not the crazy mom everyone else is doing it. The school recommends it, and we give them a lot of materials explaining the importance of independence for kids, agency and this internal locus of control. The idea that I can control my life and I can make things happen, and it's it's really good, for one's mental health. And so the kids all zoom around and they do things.

00:36:54:05 - 00:37:23:03
Lenore Skenazy
There's a lot of cooking that goes on. I think we're going to fine tune the the experience a little and say, now you have to do something outside your home. So it's not just cookies and pancakes. but when they do. We've just had such amazing stories. I was just reading one the other day. well, I tell you about that one story about another one, which is that in one school that was doing this, it was there were there were mixed classrooms of, like, neurotic people and neurodiverse kids, and all the kids got the assignment.

00:37:23:06 - 00:37:49:23
Lenore Skenazy
And even one kid who was intellectually disabled, a fifth grader, decided for her, like, girl project. She was going to go to the store, and she wrote up a little paragraph that was so poignant. It was like I went to this, you know, store. It was just all misspelled, but like, it was a little confusing. And I had to take up, you know, I had a phone so I could take a picture, picture of all the food that I was getting.

00:37:49:23 - 00:38:17:09
Lenore Skenazy
And it was it was hard with the checking out with money. but I did well and I, I learned I am brave and I love my project. And to learn. You're brave is profound. I mean, it means that the world is yours as opposed to the world is someone else's. And you don't belong in it, neurodiverse or not.

00:38:17:09 - 00:38:43:22
Lenore Skenazy
That's really heady. And then you also know that what if the parents get that day? They got a kid who, you know is a terrible speller and didn't know her own, words and abilities. And, you know, oftentimes we think of disabilities in terms of the dis. And this was showing her, abilities to herself, her parents, the lady checking her out and, and her teacher and her classmates.

00:38:43:25 - 00:39:13:08
Lenore Skenazy
And it's so big a deal. And it is so easy to do. Any teacher can do it. All our materials are free. It doesn't take much class time, and it's transformative. I hope that in some shownotes somewhere you'll show it, you know, connect to one of our videos of kids doing this. And what we've heard from older kids doing it in middle school is that, you know, by then, anxiety is not a minor issue in a lot of places.

00:39:13:10 - 00:39:34:11
Lenore Skenazy
And we had one teacher who's featured in this great video, you know, our videos are like three minutes long. Who thought that her kids were this is back in 2020 18 or 19 was before the pandemic. Who saw her kids being more she'd been teaching for 20 years, like the most anxious she had ever seen them. And she gave me an example on the phone because she was try to lure me out to watch.

00:39:34:13 - 00:39:48:01
Lenore Skenazy
And she did, because she's on Long Island, I'm in New York City. And the example she gave is that one time a kid came into the class, it was like lunchtime. They hadn't had chance to get lunch yet. And the teacher said, well, just go to the cafeteria and bring your lunch back. It's fine. You know, we're just doing games or whatever.

00:39:48:01 - 00:40:11:04
Lenore Skenazy
And and the kid said by myself, right. And this is seventh grader. So, so she was worried about them. And so she assigned, the lacrosse experience. They had the content to do 20 led grow projects over the course of a year. And so, okay, but if you're making pancakes one of the time and cookies another time, at some point you got to go to CBS, you got to climb a tree, you got to go to the park with your friends.

00:40:11:04 - 00:40:42:16
Lenore Skenazy
You got to get yourself to to church or to your ballet lesson or something. And the kids that I went and met, were so freed. They were like, they were talking about, like I was so anxious I could barely talk to people. And I go in these classrooms now and I see the kids barely talking, you know, whether they, you know, choked up behind their masks and never got it back or whatever, they're just they're very, very quiet, as if they're worried anything they say is going to be dumb or wrong.

00:40:42:16 - 00:41:01:06
Lenore Skenazy
So they don't want to put themselves out there even to say anything. And these kids had done so much that they talked about how they just changed as people. And and when one girl was talking about how her favorite project was, her parents had to take her brother for like an eye operation or something. One morning that was very early.

00:41:01:06 - 00:41:29:05
Lenore Skenazy
So they left her home. Remember, she's around 12 years old with a younger sister who was, I think, in kindergarten, and so she had to get the girl her breakfast and get her backpack ready and get her ready to go out the door and then take her off to the bus stop. And when she did, and the and her little sister got on the bus and was waving, you know, goodbye, the girl explained that she she herself was crying and she said, I just felt like I mattered.

00:41:29:07 - 00:41:50:27
Lenore Skenazy
And you know, what have we deprived our kids of? Yeah, right. Not just independence, but if everything is done for you, you matter and that you're loved, but you don't matter and that you can help anyone you know you don't matter and that your parents trust you as a blossoming young human. You matter and that you're a delightful and endangered pet.

00:41:51:00 - 00:42:03:01
Lenore Skenazy
And that's a different feeling. And so all these kids talked about one kid. We have his we have a screengrab from the teacher's phone that said, thank you so much. Now I'm off my meds.

00:42:03:03 - 00:42:24:18
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, powerful, powerful stuff. I want to make sure to, pull up, Peter's book here. So again, free to learn. right here. I do have, my own, bookstore bookshop.org. and so I'll make sure to include this book along with your book and also, the anxious generation is already out there on my bookshop.

00:42:24:20 - 00:42:38:09
John Simmerman
so I'll be sure to do that. I also wanted to you had mentioned it earlier, about, 34th, the miracle 34th. Explain that a little bit since I'm not from New York.

00:42:38:12 - 00:43:05:23
Lenore Skenazy
Oh, it just, you know, there's that movie, my favorite movie ever. miracle on 34th Street. Possibly. Why? I moved to New York. You know, the funny thing about that movie is that it's so great. It's so charming. Watch the old version from the 30s. Black and white. Fred Gwynne, Natalie Wood as a six year old. But the the phrase it gets repeated and turns out to be like the, you know, the the main theme is that faith is believing when common sense tells you not to.

00:43:05:25 - 00:43:26:23
Lenore Skenazy
And in that case, it's believing in Santa Claus. Somebody personally, I don't believe in I'm Jewish, but it was nonetheless an extremely important movie for me, and I think that my whole life is faith is believing when a culture tells you not to. Our culture is told us not to believe in our kids, not to believe in our neighbors, not to believe that our kids can succeed at anything without us.

00:43:26:23 - 00:43:55:05
Lenore Skenazy
They're not to believe that mother nature created a very wonderful template for kids to be learning and curious and competent and able to withstand things, and instead, we think they can only deal with what has been curated through us. You know, the preaching, food and and because you showed the Peter Gray, book, I wanted to say the other Let Grow initiative, that's also that we recommend schools do.

00:43:55:07 - 00:44:26:27
Lenore Skenazy
And here I have to say also, I, you know, on my tombstone it will be chiseled that Lenore introduced Jonathan Hyde to Peter Gray, because John spends a lot of his time talking about how we replaced a play based childhood with a phone based childhood, and we have to get back to the play based childhood. That's because he's been listening to Peter, ever since we started, like, Grow and Peter says that when kids are playing, they you hear a lot of less than perfect interactions.

00:44:26:29 - 00:44:48:00
Lenore Skenazy
You know, that's not fair, that teams are not good. The ball was out. I'm bored. Oh my God, what do you know? Sydney, you're bothering us. All the things that go on, I'd say. Now, that's not fair. It's probably, you know, the phrase uttered most in childhood when parents aren't there because they're trying to figure out what is fair, what does make sense?

00:44:48:00 - 00:45:16:01
Lenore Skenazy
How can I assert my sense of what this game should be and how I see the world? And sometimes I'm going to lose. And that's not fair. But I but Mother Nature put this drive to play in all kids that made it so enticing that like, okay, you can go first, you're okay. The ball was out. You know, or yes, you can play with us even though I don't like you because the teams are uneven and you're a great hitter.

00:45:16:02 - 00:45:36:07
Lenore Skenazy
Whatever it is, there's there's so many compromises and so many ways to say, wait, wait, wait. It'd be more fun if you know, you don't. If you wait three seconds and then you throw the ball. So it's articulating new ideas and compromising and communicating and being creative and and dealing with the frustration of dealing with other human beings.

00:45:36:07 - 00:45:59:25
Lenore Skenazy
All that is done because that's how you get to the fun, right? The fun is so enticing, the play time. And when adults are with kids, they see the frustration and the stupidity and the immaturity because they're not mature yet and they say, oh, you guys are taking forever. Okay. The teens capped off by, you know, twos and you're going to be over here and you play first.

00:45:59:28 - 00:46:31:21
Lenore Skenazy
And the adults, you know, whether that was spontaneous or whether it's an organized sport feel like two, we're not wasting all our time. I mean, if we waited for them to organize the game, they'd have five minutes left to play. And so they think they've optimized the experience, but I think they've taken all the vitamins out of that experience, because that's the that interstitial time is when kids are learning all these social emotional learning that we're now trying to teach them through curriculum and advisory or homeroom.

00:46:31:21 - 00:47:02:28
Lenore Skenazy
It's like, okay, kids, turn the person next to you and tell them one reason they're terrific. And so Let Grow suggests that we do Peter Gray's idea, which is keep all schools open before or after school, or both for a decent swath of time, at least an hour for mixed age free play in a no phone zone. And the way I was just describing it in my email to the Surgeon general who I met last night, was that think of this as a wildlife sanctuary.

00:47:03:00 - 00:47:22:27
Lenore Skenazy
You know, if you're worried about kids and phones, if you're worried about depression and anxiety and passivity and self-doubt, here's a way that they can interact. You don't have to interact with people you don't want to. You can be, you know, you can be playing, you know, drawing with chalk that be me in the corner with 1 or 2 friends.

00:47:22:27 - 00:47:41:23
Lenore Skenazy
And then there could be a big group of people that's, you know, playing soccer or Foursquare or going to the swings or doing all these things in groups. And because it's mixed ages, that's more like humanity always was, which was, you know, we didn't the, the, you know, the on the Serengeti, they weren't saying, oh, you'll be seven in September.

00:47:41:23 - 00:48:11:15
Lenore Skenazy
Well, you're not in this group yet, right. It was a group of kids that as soon as a toddler could toddle along after them, they'd be desperately trying to keep up. And the older kids might reluctantly or probably take care of them. and then that toddler becomes one of the older kids. And one of the things Peter points out about mixed age play is that when it's just the seven year olds, it's the strongest seven year old or maybe the most obnoxious seven year old who's automatically the the leader because they have actual leadership qualities.

00:48:11:15 - 00:48:40:05
Lenore Skenazy
But if it's ten year olds down to three year olds, the ten year old who might be very shy is also the leader. And so everybody gets a chance to be, you know, different positions in a society and you're interacting and you're figuring things out. And that is how you create a society that functions. And so the reason that John Hite and Daniel Shukman, who used to be the chairman of fire, which fights for which fights for free speech on campus, we're talking to each other.

00:48:40:05 - 00:49:09:08
Lenore Skenazy
Those five years ago when they were thinking about this, is that they felt like kids on campus had become so intolerant of feeling uncomfortable that they were mistaking it for being unsafe. And so they wanted, you know, trigger warnings and safe spaces, and they didn't want to hear ideas that they didn't already agree with. And both John and Dan were saying, you know, fighting for viewpoint diversity, which is one of John's first fights on campus, is great, but it's a late stage intervention.

00:49:09:10 - 00:49:28:10
Lenore Skenazy
What if we could raise kids who were so used to the Sturm und Drang, being together and figuring things out and making their on fun and being frustrated? What if we created kids from the get go who were open minded and resilient and resourceful like that? And they said, well, wouldn't that be better? You know, it's like prevention versus cure.

00:49:28:12 - 00:49:48:27
Lenore Skenazy
And so that's when they came to me and said, you know, we love free range kids. Let's start this nonprofit. And I said, bring it, Peter. And so the like grow play club is the fruition of all that thinking. How can we get kids back together? So you keep the school open. There is an adult there for liability purposes or, you know, in case of an emergency, just like there's a lifeguard on a beach.

00:49:49:00 - 00:49:56:17
Lenore Skenazy
But otherwise the kids just have to make their own fun. And there's loose parts, right? There's hula hoops and like.

00:49:56:17 - 00:50:20:23
John Simmerman
Balls into channel that movie once again. imagination is a big theme to that. And this, you know, gives, an opportunity for imagination because, you know, left to their own devices, they may come up with a completely new novel game that nobody, no adult, would have ever conceived because they will use their creative liberty.

00:50:20:25 - 00:50:41:15
Lenore Skenazy
wait, I just have to tell you one story about that, Peter, which was that when kids were back from Covid, they were playing a game called Covid, I think, or something or, you know, illness. And if you if Covid touched you, you know, like basically it if Covid touched you, you had to lie down on the ground because you were dead, but then somebody could come along and I think vaccinate you.

00:50:41:18 - 00:50:51:27
Lenore Skenazy
And then you were back in the game and the teacher said, oh, this is so morbid. And they cut it. They said, no, you can't play that. But obviously this is how the kids were working through everything, right?

00:50:52:00 - 00:50:56:00
John Simmerman
And before Covid, I mean, they were playing zombies. So same thing.

00:50:56:02 - 00:50:57:09
Lenore Skenazy
Right?

00:50:57:12 - 00:51:04:10
John Simmerman
Yeah. right. So there's another 34th that, is a wonderful, wonderful story here.

00:51:04:10 - 00:51:05:02
Lenore Skenazy
Oh, absolutely.

00:51:05:02 - 00:51:30:26
John Simmerman
Yeah. That's that's 34th Avenue. And and this is a, this is a manifestation of, transformation of our public realm to be able to encourage, you know, saw that the gal holding up the the sign, you know, children playing and this gives people and we're redefining what our streets are for here, which is a major, major theme, you know, with the Active Towns initiative.

00:51:30:26 - 00:52:08:07
John Simmerman
And what we're trying to do worldwide is trying to get people to realize that really, you know, streets, streets are for people. They have been for people for, you know, thousands of years. It's the automobile that's the new interloper that came in about 100 years ago. And so these types of initiatives are, I think, incredibly important because it gives I want to say, you know, I'm going to say this in a way that, you know, we can both argue and debate one way, but it gives, I think, parents a pass and creates a little bit of a safe space so that the kids can play.

00:52:08:07 - 00:52:43:16
John Simmerman
Look at all these kids playing. And I know that there's integration with lots of schools, with this space, which I absolutely love. Talk a little bit about this, you know, this kind of transformation in this sort of, movement that's starting to happen because it's it's actually, like I said, it's like a physical manifestation of creating, some space where, again, we sort of encourage, like, Tim Gill was talking about urban playgrounds and like, you know, we really want our urban fabric to be kid friendly.

00:52:43:17 - 00:52:45:23
John Simmerman
The entire city. Yes. Yeah. Period.

00:52:45:23 - 00:53:04:11
Lenore Skenazy
Yeah. I'll talk. And then I also have to get off exactly at the half hour. so, you know, why wouldn't you have more space for playing near a school? it was either, I think it was Tim who told me when I was helping John. Right. So in the ANC's generation, there's a chapter for schools and there's a chapter for parents.

00:53:04:11 - 00:53:23:07
Lenore Skenazy
And I was helping write those. And so I was talking to, you know, active transportation people and city planners about, you know, what other ideas are great. And one of the ideas was, it's so simple to block off the street in front of a school and then even, yeah, this is in Paris. Everything looks really much nicer than here.

00:53:23:09 - 00:53:39:29
Lenore Skenazy
but automatically you have enough space. Like, my kids went to public school here in New York City, and they were only allowed to run on the perimeter of the black, the blacktop during their very short and horrible recess because there were so many kids. Well, why didn't they just. I didn't even think of this back then.

00:53:39:29 - 00:53:59:28
Lenore Skenazy
Why didn't they block off, you know, one block in front of the school and you would have had this giant swath of space, and then you don't have cars dropping kids off, so you don't have all the accidents of cars dropping kids off and, you know, running into the kids who have just been dropped off. And and it's just, it's a plaza in my neighborhood.

00:53:59:28 - 00:54:22:05
Lenore Skenazy
Not only is the 34th Street become a play street that you were showing, but there's also a street in the business district that used to be just another normal street, and they block that off. They called the Diversity Plaza because we do have 167 languages spoken here in Jackson Heights. It's a fantastic neighborhood in Queens, but now there's people selling stuff and there's people bringing their tea outside.

00:54:22:05 - 00:54:47:28
Lenore Skenazy
And one one night I came out and they set up all these chairs and there was a big screen, and it was the vice presidential debates, which I cannot imagine. I think more boring personally. But, you know, there's people in, you know, jobs and Serapis and there's I mean, it was just like it was it was like Ellis Island participating in democracy because there was a space for everybody to gather together.

00:54:47:28 - 00:55:09:00
Lenore Skenazy
So gathering spaces are great. I mean, I wish I lived in the Azores, where my son tells me every, you know, every Sunday from 4 to 8, you know, the whole town comes out to the plaza and the younger kids and I guess the older people who have lost their spouses also flirt. Let's hope. And maybe there's some people who are still alive and they just enjoy perambulator and talking.

00:55:09:02 - 00:55:30:13
Lenore Skenazy
but I love the idea of anything that creates community. And obviously having a place to gather is part of it, which is why I have to put in a good word again for the, for a let grow play club. So what you're doing is you're keeping after school some space at the school open for this mixed age, no devices socializing.

00:55:30:16 - 00:55:50:22
Lenore Skenazy
And the older I just heard last night at this, this surgeon general thing, the discussion with the Surgeon General, surgeon general, that, a school that had banned phones, a middle school that had banned phones, said the teachers were most surprised by the outbreak of a lot of flirting and a lot of new boyfriend and girlfriend, you know, budding activity.

00:55:50:22 - 00:56:11:00
Lenore Skenazy
And of course, because instead of looking down, you're looking up and you're interacting. So creating this, I mean, whether it's a it's, you know, whether there's a through street or a play street or whatever you want to call it or electro play club, you're getting you're giving people a space to gather. And in a play club, you're giving them a specific time to gather either before or after school.

00:56:11:06 - 00:56:43:06
Lenore Skenazy
And then there's people that's that's the really key ingredient for getting kids outside. They don't just care about the outside. They want to be where their friends are. They want to be doing stuff with people. And so it's just a simple recipe. But we don't have it now. And so kids get picked up and they either get driven home where they will remain on their screens, I promise you, until dinner, or they get taken to an adult run activity where once again, the the game is optimized, but the interaction ones are, minimal or negligible.

00:56:43:11 - 00:56:47:19
Lenore Skenazy
Certainly not as robust as they'd be if the kids were deciding on what to play themselves.

00:56:47:21 - 00:57:08:04
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Eleanor, this has been so much fun. It's I, I'm I'm shocked that it's taken me this long to connect with you. Yeah. again, this is your website, and, folks, if, please head on over to let Grow Up. Click on join now. I believe you can sign up for a newsletter. I've been getting the newsletter.

00:57:08:06 - 00:57:14:17
John Simmerman
you know, it's mostly bloodless. Yeah, yeah. Blog posts and. Yeah, I guess that's probably the terminology, right?

00:57:14:17 - 00:57:18:06
Lenore Skenazy
Exactly. Whatever it is, it's me writing and writing and writing and writing. So if you.

00:57:18:06 - 00:57:35:16
John Simmerman
Want to see more, which is what you do, which is what you do. And again, I do have the books out here on the Active Towns Bookshop. So it's right there. Anxious Generation and the free Range Kids. And I'll be sure to get Peter Gray's book, right next to those two as well. Lenore, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast, and.

00:57:35:16 - 00:57:43:27
Lenore Skenazy
Thanks for showing my neighborhood. I mean, and anybody who's coming to New York don't miss Jackson Heights, Queens. Yes. And also like.

00:57:44:00 - 00:57:47:12
John Simmerman
Yes, exactly. Yay. Thank you.

00:57:47:14 - 00:57:48:02
Lenore Skenazy
All right. Thank you.

00:57:48:02 - 00:58:02:24
John Simmerman
Done a thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Lenore. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

00:58:02:27 - 00:58:23:20
John Simmerman
And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns podcast, please consider becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. It's easy to do. Just head on over to Active Towns. Georgie. Click on the support tab at the top of the page. There's many different options, including becoming a Patreon supporter. patrons do get access to all this video content early and ad free.

00:58:23:22 - 00:58:50:25
John Simmerman
I can thank you so much for tuning in. It really means so much to me. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers and again sending a huge thank you out to all my Active Towns ambassadors supporting the channel on Patreon! Buy me a coffee YouTube. Super! Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the Active Towns store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated.

00:58:50:28 - 00:58:52:05
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much!