Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:03 - 00:00:23:18
Babet Hendriks
The images are very strong. Like they've put up all these signs, like how it could be. So this is what you see here. So it's a it's a very low key project, low key measures, but it does work of finding the balance in a mobility donut and also, again, taking those people with you like showing them how it could be.

00:00:23:20 - 00:00:34:25
Babet Hendriks
And this is from the same project like Air could be the future sidewalk communicating to people passing by that there will be other options soon.

00:00:34:27 - 00:00:50:19
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman and that is Babete Hendriks from Mobycon in the Netherlands. We're going to be talking about the mobility donut, which is a theoretical construct that Mobycon has been working on for several years now. And I.

00:00:50:19 - 00:00:51:06
Babet Hendriks
Am delighted.

00:00:51:06 - 00:01:17:29
John Simmerman
To share this with you. It is related to the economic theory of the donut theory of economics, which also will provide links for that construct as well in the show notes and in the video description below. So without further ado, let's get right to the back little bit. Thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:01:17:29 - 00:01:19:13
John Simmerman
Welcome.

00:01:19:15 - 00:01:22:16
Babet Hendriks
Thanks for having.

00:01:22:19 - 00:01:31:10
John Simmerman
Babette. I always like to give my guests just a moment to introduce themselves. So who are you and what is that you do?

00:01:31:12 - 00:02:00:05
Babet Hendriks
Well, I'm Beth Hendrix. I am a consultant at Moby Kong, which is a Dutch originally Dutch consultancy working on sustainable mobility. We try to make the world less dependent of the cars. We are also working in the US, Canada, throughout Europe and my home basis is in the Netherlands. That's where I'm sitting right now and I'm often engaged in mobility planning.

00:02:00:07 - 00:02:14:03
Babet Hendriks
So really on a policy level, not so much on designing streets or places, but very much on this mobility plan policy level. And yeah.

00:02:14:06 - 00:02:20:11
John Simmerman
Fantastic. Now, when you say policy level, what do you really mean by that?

00:02:20:13 - 00:02:46:15
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. So before we can make decisions on how we want to design or places our streets, we have to have made some choices with, you know, in the local government. They need some choices on paper. What do we want to prioritize? Who do we want to prioritize? What kind of neighborhoods do we want to live in? And I support local governments, mainly in the Netherlands, with making those decisions.

00:02:46:18 - 00:02:56:18
John Simmerman
Right. Right. Okay. And you said you're there in the Netherlands at this point in time. The offices are there in Delft, right?

00:02:56:20 - 00:03:11:04
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. Well, the main office in the Netherlands is in Delft, but I'm calling in from smaller right now. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. And we have an office in them both. Not sure if you know that. Yes. Yes, that is a name. And you definitely know that. Yeah.

00:03:11:11 - 00:03:15:22
John Simmerman
Yeah. And. Well, that's. That's quite a trip from Nijmegen to Zala.

00:03:15:24 - 00:03:19:21
Babet Hendriks
It's an hour train. Yeah. So it's okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:03:19:23 - 00:03:49:13
John Simmerman
But we're going to be talking about mobility, and that's an example of mobility. And in everything, you know, you and I met at the Velocity conference in Leipzig, Germany, and you gave a presentation about what Moby Con is calling the Mobility Donut. And so that's what we're going to dive into. Real briefly, as we pop on over to this this title slide here, why the Mobility donut?

00:03:49:13 - 00:03:53:11
John Simmerman
What how, how, how is it that that we came to this?

00:03:53:14 - 00:04:24:16
Babet Hendriks
Well, it's quite a story. We've been working on it for a couple of years now. And so well, as I said, we are working on mobility, planning, sort of policy. And several colleagues were working on mobility, poverty, several colleagues were working on public transport and ensuring a sort of basic level of mobility. And we were discussing like, is there one frame or one story that we can tell that holds all these concepts?

00:04:24:16 - 00:04:59:16
Babet Hendriks
And while we were talking, we thought of the donut economy and we like in an instant we saw a parallel to a mobility donut, because what the donut economy really shows is how we have to move away from like a linear economy focusing on growth to a circular economy that is well closed in the sense that we just have like a two levels that we have to move between in between and not focus on growth.

00:04:59:18 - 00:05:05:12
Babet Hendriks
And that is, you know, how we also found in comparison to the mobility donut.

00:05:05:14 - 00:05:43:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. And sticking here on the the mobile or the economic donut model, that's an entire flat philosophic framework. And we could spend an entire hour just talking about this. But I did want to pull up the Donut Economic Action Lab website. And so if people want to really dive in deep and understand more about what what the concepts are here, but really it's it is this sort of different way of thinking about a compass to human prosperity in the 21st century and in in.

00:05:43:15 - 00:06:18:19
John Simmerman
And the key thing that I notice about when we when we we talk about, you know, this concept, it's like this concept of running up against the planetary boundaries that exist. And so that's one of the things that really resonates with this model, because we can kind of see that, you know, it's not a good thing when you have a shortfall of resources, whether it's food or water or your political voice, peace and justice, If you have a shortfall of then those things, it's bad.

00:06:18:21 - 00:06:44:18
John Simmerman
And really what we see is that this concept is that, you know, there's this area in the middle, this donut, you know, between, you know, the shortfall and the overshoot, because when we have an overshoot of certain things, then we start to see the bad things that start to happen, the ocean acidification, the biodiversity loss, things of that.

00:06:44:23 - 00:06:59:16
John Simmerman
So I just wanted to, you know, frame that a little bit. Is there anything that I'm missing from this concept of, you know, this paradigm, this different way of thinking that this relevant before we go back to your presentation.

00:06:59:18 - 00:07:34:25
Babet Hendriks
And I'll touch upon it later, but what you're seeing there is, you know, in the donut framework you'll see all these different slices and and we've done we've made a like a proposal for how we think the mobility donut slices should work. But that's a very complex discussion. So we can talk about that, but it's it changes throughout our experience like throughout the months and years working on it, but it also changes depending on who I talk to.

00:07:34:28 - 00:08:04:17
Babet Hendriks
But so that's a aspect. And what I find very important is what you already said is like the ceiling, the you know, what is, what is the boundaries of our economy and how we translate that to mobility. I think that's very powerful. And for some decision makers, it will be frightening, but we find it very powerful to bring that into the picture.

00:08:04:20 - 00:08:30:04
John Simmerman
Yeah, So we've we referenced earlier, you know, your trip, you know, from where you're living and naming it up as well. And and I made the comment about mobility and, you know, the very first image that you have in your presentation is is an image. It looks like Jonathan Moss from Portland is credited with this particular photo. Hey, this looks like mobility, too.

00:08:30:06 - 00:08:59:20
Babet Hendriks
And this looks like moving it to you. It is. It is. I when preparing for the podcast, I try to collect, you know, photos that captured the donut old ones. And I think this picture does you see the physical space that is given to car drivers? Oh well, I assume that they are able to go anywhere, anywhere, any time with their car.

00:08:59:23 - 00:09:27:04
Babet Hendriks
And then we see a lack of a proper pathway for the guy here in the middle of the photo. And, you know, it shows to me how we have prioritized in our mobility planning for over decades and how we know of like shortfalls in inside of the donut. But I'll just take that later. But it captures everything.

00:09:27:06 - 00:09:55:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, it captures for me what an auto sewer this is. It captures for me exactly what you said. We prioritized the movement, the mobility of one mode of of transport, one mode of mobility, ver and to the detriment of of others. Yes, this person is able to walk, but it's certainly not a welcoming or inviting place to walk.

00:09:55:18 - 00:10:15:24
John Simmerman
Theoretically, one is able to ride a bike here, but is certainly not a welcoming or safe inviting place to do so. We then have have this image, and this is a fabulous image too, because we I can see the layers of mobility options here. Talk about this.

00:10:15:27 - 00:11:05:24
Babet Hendriks
That's what I wanted to show as well. Like here you already see how space is somewhat better. Divide it amongst all the modes of transport. So what I, I found interesting is that I think that I'm looking to I'm not super sure, but I think I'm looking to a bustling event. So I'm not sure if it is open for cars, but it shows how to balance moves towards active mobility to public transport, creating options for a variety of people and not, you know, how do you say making I lost the English word, but making it obligatory to drive a car.

00:11:05:26 - 00:11:06:24
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah.

00:11:06:27 - 00:11:12:07
Babet Hendriks
Yeah, yeah. So you have the freedom to choose like what? What you want to do and see.

00:11:12:07 - 00:11:28:18
John Simmerman
I was searching my mind for the Dutch word for that and I couldn't think of it either. Yeah, Yeah. All right, so and then we go to this. Wait a minute. Yeah. Where does where does this fit in with that? And that?

00:11:28:20 - 00:12:00:00
Babet Hendriks
Well, I wanted to show different places in the city where you can apply to donut frame and where you know, all the places in the city or towns where you have to every time prioritize. And also in Dutch towns, we do see a lot of streets focusing on parking and car parking. And this one obviously is transformed to an area to play and to meet each other and to get back some green in the street.

00:12:00:02 - 00:12:08:18
Babet Hendriks
And, you know, that's a way where we are. That's a that's a future that I foresee for so many streets.

00:12:08:21 - 00:12:32:29
John Simmerman
Yeah. And so this looks like it's again, could probably in a previous iteration of this photo probably had car parking in this area, maybe even autumn mobility through this area. It's been transformed into what looks like to be a living street, a place street, a haven air. Is that what we're looking at? Would you call that a.

00:12:33:02 - 00:12:40:07
Babet Hendriks
And we could call this open air, but won't Erivo still have access for cars?

00:12:40:12 - 00:12:42:27
John Simmerman
And that's right because it is more of a shared space.

00:12:42:29 - 00:12:43:17
Babet Hendriks
Right?

00:12:43:20 - 00:13:09:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And this is not a shared space anymore, although we do see the bicycles parked in the background here. So it is a shared mobility space from a cycling you can ride your bike through here and we see the kids trike their, you know, next to the playground. So fantastic activity. So it is a shared space from the standpoint of people walking, biking, kids playing things of that nature.

00:13:09:06 - 00:13:18:28
John Simmerman
But this is more of a living space. This is a flow to versus more of a flow through from a mobility perspective.

00:13:19:01 - 00:13:40:13
Babet Hendriks
Right? But I that's why I included the previous picture and this one because at both places we can think of like what kind of living environment do we want to live in, What is the place, what is the function of this place in the bigger picture and and what kind of balance? Mobility don't have balance do we strive for?

00:13:40:15 - 00:13:59:13
John Simmerman
Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. Okay, fantastic. Now we're now we're back to the donut, and we've been talking about donuts, so, so often. I'm starting to get a little hungry. I'm going to take a sip of coffee here. So we're here at the at the at the donut framework, and we see the Moby colors here.

00:13:59:16 - 00:14:05:27
John Simmerman
Let's take it to this next level of the mobility poverty. Walk us through this.

00:14:05:29 - 00:14:10:11
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. So can you can you pull back one slide.

00:14:10:13 - 00:14:11:18
John Simmerman
To hear the donut? Yeah.

00:14:11:24 - 00:14:35:10
Babet Hendriks
Yeah, to the donut. Because I forgot something in my introduction that I want to mention. Okay. Another reason why we came up with the mobility donut and why proves that it's important to use this frame and start talking about this frame is that we've been measuring our mobility systems, the performance of our mobility system on a words like free flow or traffic jams.

00:14:35:10 - 00:15:13:14
Babet Hendriks
Right. And I do want to emphasize that this framework helps us to move towards like we want to assess our mobility of our mobility systems based on well-being. So that's also a big reason, a major reason why we start using the donut and talk about the donut, because, you know, that's also in them. And when you read about them, the donut economy on the website that you shared earlier, you find words like wellbeing as well.

00:15:13:17 - 00:15:34:05
Babet Hendriks
I think that's interesting talking about the donut, like the shift from measuring our mobility system, free flow or traffic jams or whatever to like how happy are people using this mobility system in this world? Are they able to get where they want to? Yeah.

00:15:34:08 - 00:15:59:17
John Simmerman
And I guess one could argue that, you know, here seems like this is a pretty happy place. But from an auto mobility perspective, there's some restrictions to this. So the access has been controlled for for that particular mode of mobility. So there's that balance that we're trying to strive for. Okay. Right.

00:15:59:19 - 00:16:23:21
Babet Hendriks
So that's where that's another major reason where where we came from in this shift, because there is this big transformation going on right in our in our field work that we don't talk anymore about traffic jams, about free flow and stuff and more and more about well-being. We need new narratives to work with our decision makers, to work with people, with citizens.

00:16:23:24 - 00:17:06:29
Babet Hendriks
And that's where the donut frame comes in. And that's also a way to put forward the concept of mobility poverty, because mobility poverty up to like four or five years ago wasn't much in the center of discussion. And we are still trying to figure out how to show our decision makers that mobility poverty is a real thing. So the donut economy also, because it takes its focus more on the well-being of our cities, it also is a tool to talk about mobility, poverty, and relate mobility poverty to excessive mobility.

00:17:07:02 - 00:17:39:12
John Simmerman
Yeah, right. So with that context in mind of bringing wellness into there, and I would also use the term human vitality is as an analogous phrase to to wellness. What about economics and what about economic vitality in economic wellness? Is that also considered at this point when we're starting to to talk about mobility, happiness and mobility, basic mobility and in mobility, poverty?

00:17:39:14 - 00:18:08:27
Babet Hendriks
Yeah, So that very much is related. So, you know, talking about the Netherlands, a lot of research institutes are figuring out a way of how to transform the discussions around our mobility system, which is based on, you know, old fashioned economics of growth, based on growth, trying to shift that discussion to well-being, which means that we have to think about those that influence us right now right here.

00:18:08:27 - 00:18:23:24
Babet Hendriks
But also does it influence or impact future generations? So, yeah, so, you know, economy as which is of course a huge word, but economy is very much related to this.

00:18:23:26 - 00:18:42:24
John Simmerman
Because the reason why the reason why I bring that up is, you know, since we do have an international audience to the podcast here, you know, some cynics might be like, well, this is all fun and and dandy and and livability and play, but what about economics? What about, you know, the business that's right down on the corner there?

00:18:42:24 - 00:19:13:25
John Simmerman
And and they're complaining that this is is negatively impacting them. So it sounds like we have to sort of also sort of layer in a variety of different stakeholders, a variety of different metrics and measurements when coming to this. You know, it's not just wellness, it's not just human vitality, but it's also this layer, because if if the economy, quote unquote, is destroyed, then I guess that doesn't really help human vitality.

00:19:13:27 - 00:19:45:27
Babet Hendriks
Right? Yeah. So the discussion of the mobility donut is part of this much bigger discussion of how to address our economy and how to talk about our economy and talk about the performance of our economy, like what kind of numbers or worse, what you use for the performance of our economy. That discussion is going on worldwide. The mobility donut has a place in that bigger discussion using the mobility donut.

00:19:45:29 - 00:20:13:07
Babet Hendriks
To me, again, is a framework that enables to talk and relate to all kinds of disciplines of of working fields, rather than talking about the old fashioned like how we used to make mobility plans and talking about free flow limited people relate to a concept of free flow. If we can talk about what city we want to live in, right.

00:20:13:10 - 00:20:44:16
John Simmerman
And that brings us to excessive mobility and this the, you know, this 80 year old fascination that many car centric communities have had with with trying to reach an lowest level of free flowing traffic, of motor vehicle traffic. And and to your point, we're starting to realize, whoa, wait a minute, maybe we were measuring the wrong thing. You know, maybe LAUSD shouldn't stand for level of service.

00:20:44:16 - 00:21:09:03
John Simmerman
Maybe it should stand for something more holistic and tied to mobility, happiness and vitality and economic vitality. Maybe LOS should stand for level safety or level of satisfaction or something else. Is that kind of what you're talking about? When when we look at that excessive mobility?

00:21:09:05 - 00:21:38:08
Babet Hendriks
Yeah, that's one thing. So we've you want to shift the story and make sure that we talk about that there is a boundary that's the first purpose and then excessive mobility. When there is excessive mobility, of course the consequences of that, I didn't put it in this frame because we can talk about ours again or like only what should be on the outside of the donut.

00:21:38:10 - 00:22:00:10
Babet Hendriks
And it's super complex because it's very technical and you can have discussions on how to measure stuff. But of course words that you will find on the outside of of the donut is pollution. It's to are, you say, a lack of space that some notes take up too much space.

00:22:00:13 - 00:22:35:21
John Simmerman
Yeah. Well I mean I think it brings us back to our very first photo here is where we have, you know, an excessive amount of mobility for one mode. And yes, some of the negative externalities of this include pollution, include traffic fatalities, include noise, and suddenly, oh, yeah, these negative externalities are actually compromising health and well-being and economic vitality and all of these things that we would like to have for a prosperous society.

00:22:35:24 - 00:22:41:29
Babet Hendriks
Right? Yeah. So, so that's what we talk about when we address excessive mobility.

00:22:42:02 - 00:23:11:04
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And this brings us back to our foundation of where we were at with the woods where all of this came from. So, yeah, when we zoom in and we take a look at at some of the things that we're looking at as we're going to the exterior, you know, in that what we're calling excessive mobility, using the framework of the the economic donut, we're seeing that, Oh yeah, some of those same things that we just said.

00:23:11:04 - 00:23:19:05
John Simmerman
We just talked about pollution and fatalities and injuries. Oh, yeah. These are the kinds of things that we're seeing here, too.

00:23:19:08 - 00:23:40:02
Babet Hendriks
Right? Yeah. So we've been inspired by those words. And then for mobility poverty because we didn't really focus on it or explain it. But what you some other words, cause then what is put in here for the economy.

00:23:40:04 - 00:23:46:26
John Simmerman
Yeah. Because we need. Yeah. You see you have to have a little different context, a little bit different words. Yeah.

00:23:46:28 - 00:23:55:24
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. And what is important there is that a long time mobility poverty was thought of as you know, there's no public transport.

00:23:55:26 - 00:23:57:17
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah.

00:23:57:19 - 00:24:15:00
Babet Hendriks
And that's it for stop but no mobility. Poverty is someone experiences mobility, poverty. When a person cannot get to an activity somewhere in town and thus cannot be fully part of society.

00:24:15:02 - 00:24:18:04
John Simmerman
Yeah, it's, it's what I would call lack of access to.

00:24:18:07 - 00:24:40:02
Babet Hendriks
Yeah, right. So and the factors causing that so some so if you can pay it so your financial situation if you understand how to ride a bike, if you understand how to book your trip. So all these kind of skills that you need and of course infrastructure should be there. Yeah.

00:24:40:05 - 00:25:07:16
John Simmerman
Because when we go back to this, this shot, the infrastructure should be there. Because when we zoom in on on that person and we see, oh, we pull back out and it's like, oh yeah, she's experiencing some mobility access issues. And so this is a mobility poverty situation for her particular mode. If she happens to have the privilege of of owning a motor vehicle, maybe she's super fine with the way this is designed.

00:25:07:18 - 00:25:21:20
Babet Hendriks
Right? So these workers would then be inside the mobility donut that I just mentioned, or you didn't ask me to be questioned yet of how we define these boundaries. But that's that's the that's we've.

00:25:21:20 - 00:25:31:16
John Simmerman
Been have we've been having fun defining what mobility is. But yes, it shall we shall we dive in in the next slide in your presentation is, is this. Yeah.

00:25:31:18 - 00:26:14:13
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. And so this is not entirely about the boundaries that I was talking or referring to, but back to like why we use it on it and what is helpful in using to own it. And we've been talking about Battery City. In several sessions there was a discussion of changing the narrative. And to me, you know what I said earlier, The Mobility donut is a very helpful tool to change the narrative because we've been doing a lot of work in the past trying to discuss with people who are opposed to, you know, more active mobility, that we do need more active mobility and mobility.

00:26:14:13 - 00:26:55:01
Babet Hendriks
And it was like a discussion us against them and the mobility donut because it zooms out it it let us it lets us ask like what kind of living environment do we want to live in? What is the world that makes you happy? You can, you can have another discussion. So that's helpful. Talking to citizens. And this is a game that we designed that we use with citizens, but mostly with professional stakeholders, people working in a municipality, for example, and we effectively, like we play a game that they have to come up with the mobility plan.

00:26:55:03 - 00:27:31:11
Babet Hendriks
So they have to discuss with each other and what kind of measures do we want to invest. Everyone has his or her own purpose or task within the game and they have to discuss it in the end. They have like this package of measures and we need a score for every measure on the donut so that whenever the game is finished there will be like a spider web of scores and then it will see like, Oh, we invested our money in stuff that it focused a lot on excessive mobility.

00:27:31:13 - 00:27:54:26
Babet Hendriks
So, you know, so it will not be that good for the city because of what pollution and or the climate discussions, for example, or we just we put in to let too few money in in the inside. So there are still groups of people that cannot move around or do not have the freedom to move through the city.

00:27:54:29 - 00:28:26:26
Babet Hendriks
And interesting thing here is that we play it with people from several fields of work, so not entirely a mobility group of people. And they they realize what they're always in the mobility plan. They now understand better how mobility contributes to their feeling, where people are working on health, for example, they very much need a mobility plan that folks on active mobility are people working on economy.

00:28:26:28 - 00:28:46:16
Babet Hendriks
They need a mobility plan that enables people to get to work, but also that their town is still vital and people visit town, for example. So it is super interesting and we bring it all together in one.

00:28:46:18 - 00:28:57:02
John Simmerman
Wow. So this is global, so I can see this being sort of like a monopoly game is a nice board game night. Yeah.

00:28:57:04 - 00:29:10:11
Babet Hendriks
But it's a fun thing as well, right? Because, you know, oftentimes people don't know each other and we have to introduce politics to each other. So, you know, that's that's an extra to playing this game.

00:29:10:13 - 00:29:25:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So walk us through the different two segments here. I see a dice at the end of each of the accesses here. So walk us through what happens. Do we are we rolling the dice when we're at the dice.

00:29:25:06 - 00:29:59:10
Babet Hendriks
Yeah, we're rolling the dice when we're at the dice. And they can get to like the orange, yellow, blue, purple boxes. They each stand for a or a mode of transport or spatial planning. And when they get there they can try, they can get a card. And the card says, what if the card shows a certain measure and they have to discuss if they want to invest in a card with their budget, their their shared budget, or if they leave the card out.

00:29:59:13 - 00:30:25:05
Babet Hendriks
So step by step, they they dice for this mobility plan. And that's what they're doing here. And then because it's a game, of course, sometimes you have to and you land on the question mark and they cost you. Mark always has surprises. So, you know, a public transport operator needs more subsidy or civil servants are ill and the work cannot be done.

00:30:25:05 - 00:30:53:13
Babet Hendriks
So there is this tension as well. That budget goes away often. Yeah. So they have to try to make a balanced mobility plan. We show them the result of their choices and then they then the participants reflect on, okay, what what do we take away from this game? Do we what kind of balance do we want to strive for?

00:30:53:15 - 00:30:58:20
John Simmerman
Fantastic. Interesting. Yeah. Who wins?

00:30:58:23 - 00:31:02:15
Babet Hendriks
Well, nobody.

00:31:02:17 - 00:31:27:13
John Simmerman
Yeah, but it it's the point is, is you're, it's creating discussion and reframing and thinking through these things. Yeah. Is there is there an assumption of a limited budget and so you're having to allocated from a limited fund of, of a budgetary funds versus being able to ever expand the pie so to speak.

00:31:27:16 - 00:31:50:12
Babet Hendriks
Right. So yeah, we put on that limitation and we've created like several rounds with the big measures. First, you know, the very structural measures about the network and stuff and have also swimming in to the, the smaller measures that cost little but can impact. Yeah.

00:31:50:14 - 00:32:00:11
John Simmerman
Interesting. So based on those experiences of of working with folks and having them do this, what was the biggest surprise for you?

00:32:00:14 - 00:32:26:28
Babet Hendriks
Well, we haven't played it very often yet because it's still difficult to convince people working with it. Well, the interesting part is also that we have like the last round that we give them a card and they have to imagine that they're someone else and they get a persona and they have to like reflect the mobility plan that we made that that work for this person.

00:32:27:02 - 00:32:53:21
Babet Hendriks
So we try to show them how well what the impact is of their choices to the different kinds of people, because that's something that, you know, talking about the Dutch context, because that's the concept context that I work mostly in, we tend to forget like, who do we do this for? Who do we forget and where do we harm with our mobility plan?

00:32:53:23 - 00:33:07:10
Babet Hendriks
So that's also something that we try to incorporate. And that is also like the moment that you see people thinking like, Right, I can do this differently in my work. Yeah.

00:33:07:12 - 00:33:46:21
John Simmerman
Very interesting, very interesting. So when you look at this concept of of the mobility donut and, you know, an access to various mobility modes, really, I mean, when we when we look at this, this, this, you know, framework and it sounds like almost like the Goldilocks theory, we're trying to get things just right. You know, it's that happy medium where we have just enough we're not excessively leaning towards one mobility mode versus the other.

00:33:46:23 - 00:34:02:24
John Simmerman
There's adequate access to mobility options and choice and and we're not in a situation of access poverty, mobility, poverty. So where do we go with this?

00:34:02:26 - 00:34:29:10
Babet Hendriks
So where do we go with this? Is that the mobility donut is a is a conceptual framework, of course. So and what we do with the game or with engaging with citizens, which was the previous picture, but we try to get them in a different narrative and the concept really helps to do that to make this shift talking from more or less cars to what kind of what do we want to live in?

00:34:29:12 - 00:34:56:29
Babet Hendriks
But once you've made choices or embraced a mobility donut, you can take a new look at the projects that you're working on and what this is. So I wanted to show some examples of work that's that we've been doing or has been going on somewhere in the world that shows that you can work towards this better balance step by step because of what you say.

00:34:56:29 - 00:35:34:02
Babet Hendriks
It's very delicate, like finding that balance and working on their balance and getting there, of course, is years of work and patience. So our first step is to convince people that they have to get going there and take these steps. But of course, in our daily work we try to do several things to move forward. This is for all my American colleagues working in North Carolina, and this was a project, Communities on the Move, it was called, and my colleagues worked with the local community to identify, well, identify measures, how to get them working.

00:35:34:06 - 00:36:00:05
Babet Hendriks
It was a health organization that subsidized this project. But it's a it's an example of a not too big of a project, but they can create a lot of impacts. Talking about the inside of the donut, enabling people to walk short distances in their town, making sure that they are not dependent on the car anymore and that they feel safe walking to or to other places in town.

00:36:00:08 - 00:36:21:26
Babet Hendriks
Or it's a one could call it as like a small example or not the biggest impact of all, but it's interesting, these are and I know a lot of the people that watch our podcast will recognize these kind of projects, but that's already contributing to this better balance.

00:36:21:28 - 00:36:48:22
John Simmerman
Yeah, And yeah, when I see this image, I think about, you know, who might be existing in that mobility poverty area there where there is a lack of access. It's like it's right over there, but we can't get there. But there's this shortcut that could exist. What's mow down? Let's mow this space here. Let's create a pathway. Let's let's connect this community to this this meaningful destination.

00:36:48:25 - 00:37:20:17
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. So they've they've been and that's what I like when I read what the results of the projects or share it with me. I think the images are very strong, like they've put up all these signs like how we could be. So this is what you see here. So it's a it's a very low key project, low key measures, but it does work of finding the balance in a mobility donut and also, again, taking those people with you like showing them how it could be.

00:37:20:20 - 00:37:34:13
Babet Hendriks
And this is from the same project, like here could be the future sidewalk communicating to people passing by that there will be other options soon.

00:37:34:15 - 00:37:51:03
John Simmerman
So now we get to this. This other sort of this could actually be very much a political framing and a political decision of, you know, if we have limited funds, what do we do? Do we subsidize electric cars? We subsidize electric bicycles.

00:37:51:06 - 00:38:15:27
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. So I thought it would to illustrate how you can work with the donut or use it in your discussion to put forward some dilemmas. Of course, you know, there is for both there. You could say something for both options. Electric cars, of course, are a lot cleaner, producing wise, but still they take up a lot of space.

00:38:15:29 - 00:38:45:25
Babet Hendriks
So that transformation is not really there. But still it's course better on several parts of the donut and it costs a lot of money to subsidize those electric cars. Or you can also say, what can we do with this money? How many electric bicycles can we subsidize with this money? I forgot to well, I didn't get the picture in time from my colleague, but here in the Netherlands, we've been working in it as well.

00:38:45:25 - 00:39:14:27
Babet Hendriks
We've been evaluating a project that hands out bikes to people who cannot afford afford it. So for €30 they get a bike and they also get like a follow up with a with instructions on how to use the bike and how to repair it, for example. And talking about numbers, you know, the money that goes towards that project that helps a lot of people on a yearly compared to, for example, implementing.

00:39:15:03 - 00:39:20:27
Babet Hendriks
How do you say to the poles where people where the electric cars can charge.

00:39:21:03 - 00:39:22:27
John Simmerman
Right. Yeah. The charging stations. Yeah.

00:39:23:01 - 00:39:38:11
Babet Hendriks
The charging stations like the money that takes, you know, there's not a balance there. Of course you can argue like how many people you help with that and but I find that a striking example of how to allocate your money.

00:39:38:13 - 00:40:15:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And when we go into building new infrastructure, transforming existing infrastructure and we look at the example, Utrecht, you know, really provides for as I've talked about this this particular example multiple times here on the podcast. But go ahead and frame this up mean this is 1983 at this particular location there a new tract and and this was towards the end of its life span in its current iteration at this time.

00:40:15:26 - 00:40:22:15
John Simmerman
Go ahead and set this up for for some folks who may not be familiar with this particular situation.

00:40:22:18 - 00:40:48:16
Babet Hendriks
So we're looking at the boundary of the Yeah, the boundaries of the city center of is that which is on the left side of the picture, just right on the picture, just outside the frame is the central station. And this was the major road across the city center in the eighties and nineties before they put up this infrastructure.

00:40:48:18 - 00:41:18:07
Babet Hendriks
There's infrastructure, there was water there. Yeah. It was a town. Yeah. Music mount, you know being the historic outskirt of the or well that boundary of the city center. But yeah we we wanted to prioritize cars, we thought that cars were the future and that we had to make sure that cars could get everywhere in town as soon as possible, as quick as possible.

00:41:18:10 - 00:41:26:03
John Simmerman
We do that you get you get to the Dutch. You were privatizing cars. How dare you?

00:41:26:06 - 00:41:50:29
Babet Hendriks
And also in these days, like in the eighties, I wasn't there yet. But what I heard there were a lot of protests at that time already of people who really focused on on the, you know, cars being dangerous, vehicle killing people, killing kids. So that was also at the center of our well, at the center of the protests.

00:41:50:29 - 00:42:15:07
Babet Hendriks
And the reason why we've been investing in bikes from that point on and luckily why a lot of plans didn't make it so like a lot of cities would have been torn up because of planned motorways. But luckily a lot of people woke up in time. Plans didn't continue and weren't implemented. Yeah, but that also happened to is there.

00:42:15:08 - 00:42:37:06
Babet Hendriks
But the interesting thing here is that you I could have stayed on that story like we have to prioritize cars and invest in their speed and comfort. But one day someone woke up in the city and was like, Yeah, what kind of city do we want to be? Who do we want to make space for and give place to?

00:42:37:08 - 00:43:09:04
Babet Hendriks
And they for people who are very sharp, you will see that we know looking at the same location from the opposite direction. So at this point, the station is on your left side and the city center from your right side and they've reinforced it. They got the canal back and also for the Dutch. And when I go to south and take my friends, for example, who don't know the story behind this, yeah, I'm like, well, really bold move.

00:43:09:07 - 00:43:36:28
Babet Hendriks
But it brought so much green back. And of course I was known for the number of cyclists every day there. So they follow that. Like we have such a big group of people biking from the city center, from Central Station through the city center to our university, to our hospital, to everywhere across town, we need to pay our debt.

00:43:37:06 - 00:43:57:22
Babet Hendriks
And yeah, this is this is a bold move and which is not initiated, I guess, by mobility, but by the question what kind of city do we want to be? What kind of city do we want to live in? And if you answer that question and then take the donut or you get to these solutions. Yeah.

00:43:57:25 - 00:44:26:04
John Simmerman
And, you know, it really is a tremendous transformation from going from a canal to a highway and then back to a canal again and to also to the left of this frame is is a motorway. There's there's actually a pretty busy street. So it's not as if motiva vehicles are now banned from the space they're still allowed in that particular motorway to the left is, is like I said, quite busy.

00:44:26:06 - 00:44:51:13
John Simmerman
There's quite a few motor vehicles heading in that direction, heading towards the the downtown station or the central station there. But interestingly enough we see an expansion of mobility options. We see it now being very, very conducive to people riding bikes, both on the left and on the right side. And a good friend of mine, he's now Hertz.

00:44:51:16 - 00:45:04:24
John Simmerman
He's like, yeah, now I can I can jump in my my boat, my kayak and I can paddle. And so he has an enhanced mobility options of even restoring that waterway as as mobility to.

00:45:04:27 - 00:45:14:14
Babet Hendriks
The it's it's amazing how that outdoor area is transformed and how it attracts people as well.

00:45:14:17 - 00:45:37:18
John Simmerman
It was a joy for me to be able to watch the transformation of this location. Yeah. Having visited Utrecht multiple times from from 2015 on and so I was able to see it when, before the water was put back in and they were still digging and reforming everything. So really quite a joy and pleasure to to do that.

00:45:37:18 - 00:46:00:03
John Simmerman
And, and I've actually stayed at one of the hotels right along this stretch. And so it's it's been wonderful, too, to really experience that. So the additional thing that we have here is what does this signify to you? I mean, I know what I think of. I'm like, yes, no bollards, but well, what are we looking at here from a mobility?

00:46:00:05 - 00:46:20:05
Babet Hendriks
We're looking at two pillars blocking the or cars so that cars move through the neighborhood directly and have to redirect their route, which makes their trip a bit longer, a bit slower. And it maybe helps that they choose to bike next time.

00:46:20:08 - 00:46:20:27
John Simmerman
Right.

00:46:20:29 - 00:46:21:14
Babet Hendriks
So this would.

00:46:21:15 - 00:46:53:20
John Simmerman
Be what we this is what we would call a modal modal filter in the sense that, you know, there's permeability for walking and biking. But I also noticed that this looks like they are control mechanically or electronically. They'll they'll lower down. So if somebody is is needing access like it looks like those cars that are on the other side, maybe there is that ability to to flow through this era if you had the appropriate access.

00:46:53:23 - 00:46:56:28
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. Or for like ambulances or.

00:46:57:03 - 00:46:59:19
John Simmerman
For ambulances and fire. Yeah.

00:46:59:22 - 00:47:27:05
Babet Hendriks
And the reason why I wanted to show it is, is because we are talking a lot about, you know, big cities or at least the Dutch big cities are providing us with major examples. But these are measures that are implemented in towns, tiny towns as well. And so, you know, because that's also one of the remarks that we get a lot is that we talk about cities and urban areas.

00:47:27:05 - 00:48:07:09
Babet Hendriks
But this is it can be this is very much implied or relevant in in smaller towns as well. And it's not as big as the previous example. But talking about building new infrastructure or transforming your current infrastructure, this one is striking again because what I come across a lot is that more rural towns argue that they need an extra route around the town because it's super busy inside, inside, in the town center, and it's unsafe because of the cars going through.

00:48:07:11 - 00:48:46:19
Babet Hendriks
So they argue that they need this extra route going around town. And I always get a bit annoyed when I hear that because you can spend your money wisely and that it costs millions to build new asphalt, new tarmac. And the question again is what kind of city, what kind of town do you want to live in? Because everyone wants to live in a green area where people are on the streets, where we can see each other and meet each other as most people, most people will enter that, of course, they want a safe space to live in.

00:48:46:21 - 00:49:23:18
Babet Hendriks
But to get there, to get to this safe green area, you can also talk about, you know, slowing down the central route in your town and trying to encourage people to use active modes within town and only get the cars when they really need to go far away. And then these kind of measures can, you know, help and transform that rather than this big new road that also causes barriers for people walking, people cycling.

00:49:23:21 - 00:49:25:25
Babet Hendriks
Yeah, so that's why I put this one in.

00:49:25:27 - 00:49:51:09
John Simmerman
Yeah, I love it. It's great. And it also exemplifies to, you know, the detail of, of the materials that you use when you're using, you know, the brick in this type of area that's signifying that this is a slow speed area. And again, auto mobility is a possibility. You're able to get to that your destination to be able to park here.

00:49:51:11 - 00:50:07:01
John Simmerman
But it sends a different message as to, yes, there's the access, but the the environment that's being created is a slow speed environment. So, yeah, good stuff. Excellent. Next one.

00:50:07:04 - 00:50:08:20
Babet Hendriks
Do you recognize it?

00:50:08:22 - 00:50:10:27
John Simmerman
I don't.

00:50:11:00 - 00:50:47:02
Babet Hendriks
I was curious if you or aware, where is this project? Is this in them? It's the way they operate at and it's a pilot to close off the base percent, which is a major route inside Amsterdam. Again, this is a bold move. They implemented a pilot for, I think six weeks. And what they wanted to do is, you know, measure what would affected routes are routes and what it did to the neighborhood, only ambulances and fire fighters.

00:50:47:02 - 00:51:20:27
Babet Hendriks
And so they were allowed to bus and it caused a lot of fuss in Amsterdam, but also in a national newspaper, newspapers. They're currently working on the evaluation, so I cannot say anything about that. But I again, wanted to illustrate it because thinking with a donut in mind, how to work towards this better balance. Do we want to invest in enabling cars to go faster, quicker, get easier to their destination and cause a lot of excessive mobility?

00:51:20:29 - 00:51:50:14
Babet Hendriks
Or do we want to invest in people walking cycling? Do we want to invest in the quality of the neighborhood, of the livability? And you know what a result of that. So I'm super curious of how do you how do you think evaluation will be, what the story will be and how they will continue or won't? But that's again, a new way of looking towards your infrastructure.

00:51:50:17 - 00:52:24:18
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Again, to your point in what we were framing is are we building new infrastructure or are we transforming existing infrastructure? This is an example of, you know, hey, let's be bold, let's try to transform our existing infrastructure into something that more closely aligns with what our values are from a from. And this is where you talk about, you know, the policy side of things is like, okay, what do we, you know, believe in and what are our values from from a political perspective?

00:52:24:18 - 00:52:49:12
John Simmerman
And and again, you know, these decisions that are doing these are dichotomous sometimes decisions. Do we expand street parking or do we transform into a more livable, you know, street? And that brings us back to the photo of, you know, the place Street is probably was street parking at one point in time. Now it's a more livable street.

00:52:49:14 - 00:53:21:01
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. And this is also one I come across, like almost on a daily basis in projects where our clients are like governments or municipalities say, like, there's this neighborhood and they're complaining very much about on street parking, there's not enough space for them, etc.. How are you answering that noise and sound from citizens? Are you, are you automatically catering for it and expanding it like this?

00:53:21:04 - 00:53:41:27
Babet Hendriks
This isn't shopping street even, but. Or is this a moment where you say, well, let's keep them to their parking problems, they have to deal with it. Maybe that will be like an incentive for them to change behavior, right? Yeah, yeah.

00:53:41:29 - 00:54:05:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And parking's an interesting and when you think about, you know, do what it's it really comes down to the definition. One of my taglines for the channel is Streets are for People. And what I mean by that is, is, you know, streets have literally been around for thousands of years. The automobile really came on the scene about 120 years ago.

00:54:05:05 - 00:54:42:10
John Simmerman
And so when we when we really stop and think about, well, what are our streets for? And so all streets are for people and and sometimes people get lost, you know, when when cars are present, because then it's just seems like, oh, streets are for machines and these big, you know, polluting dangerous things. But then when you when you see a stark transformation where you see a pivot and say and you see, you know, a street that's occupied primarily by cars and then pair that with a street where people are at and you're like, oh, okay, that's right.

00:54:42:10 - 00:54:45:14
John Simmerman
Yeah, there's a difference.

00:54:45:16 - 00:55:17:21
Babet Hendriks
Right? And we're now looking at photos from Batumi, Georgia, where we've been working on a school zone project and, well, what the remarks that you give are on point, of course. How can we transform a school zone area as a place where only cars stop while there are kids going to school? Right. So with like measures on the street real time, my colleagues implemented this.

00:55:17:21 - 00:55:36:06
Babet Hendriks
The school street and provide it and completely different street. And this is also a discussion that we come across everywhere in every in every city around the world. It's a lot of work that we do.

00:55:36:09 - 00:56:06:11
John Simmerman
Yeah, if there if the cars have sort of taken over the environment, which in most places in the world they have, we have this, this crazy situation where cars are invading the school zones. And so this push to try to pull back the armed mobility, you know, in the school zones is I think so incredibly helpful. Gets to the wellness stuff that you were talking.

00:56:06:13 - 00:56:20:19
John Simmerman
It gets to human vitality. You know, kids should be able to walk and bike to the schools and the area around a school zone should not be a dangerous area, Dangerous space.

00:56:20:21 - 00:56:29:14
Babet Hendriks
Right. So, yeah, I find is a good example of talking about the right balance.

00:56:29:17 - 00:56:51:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. And it brings us back into what you know, some of these big, big decisions of, you know, are we investing in public transit? Are we investing in highways? If there's limited sums of money, limited budget available, maybe it's not possible to do both.

00:56:51:22 - 00:57:20:11
Babet Hendriks
Yeah. Yeah. This is a known discussion for a lot of your watchers. I would say a big part of your public, it's in us. It's a discussion in the Netherlands. And I find that again, very striking of how we we give so much weight and importance to our highways. Well, there is only a small, smaller fraction of our people are using them.

00:57:20:15 - 00:57:49:19
Babet Hendriks
And the problems that they that we experience on the problems that we experience on highways are experienced by people who are very capable of moving around because of their private car. They can get anywhere. And then the people who probably need the public transport, they rely on public transport. That's something that we in the Netherlands, at least slight step by step.

00:57:49:21 - 00:58:01:25
Babet Hendriks
Public transport disappears or is focusing on the routes that are very busy. And so it is interesting as well, like how how can you explain that?

00:58:01:28 - 00:58:23:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and it's even just taking your commute as, as an example, you know, getting from Nijmegen all the way up to as well. I mean you're, it's a one hour public transit ride for you to get up there. There are highways you could totally drive if you wanted to. I'm not sure if it would be a similar amount of time or.

00:58:23:02 - 00:58:52:14
John Simmerman
Not but I guarantee you would not be is anywhere near as pleasant or, you know, the ability for you to to to use that time in other ways, whether it's in reading or doing some work or catching a nap or whatever, that, you know, those are the challenges. You know, that that we have in front of us. And again, I appreciate the fact that you you started this off by saying, really, you're not focused on building the infrastructure.

00:58:52:17 - 00:59:20:07
John Simmerman
You're you're really focused on that policy side and the political side of having those discussions with city leaders and other individuals of, hey, what kind of community do you want? And again, you are with Moby Con again, we're we're seeing Moby Con doing some wonderful things even here in North America now. Thank you so much for for doing that.

00:59:20:10 - 00:59:44:09
John Simmerman
Zach Vander Khoi from from Boulders is a good friend of mine. And then I've had him on the channel before and look forward to seeing more of the Moby Tonight's Here in North America. Any final words that you'd like to to to mention about either the Mobility Donut or Moby Colon in general or your work?

00:59:44:11 - 01:00:14:10
Babet Hendriks
Well, I hope that, you know, the message came across of what the mobility donut means and what it means to me personally, maybe, but also what it can mean in in your and mine work. And I'm very up for discussion. So, yeah, I'm very curious what the response will be and what the thoughts of people listening to this podcast will be.

01:00:14:13 - 01:00:31:11
Babet Hendriks
And, and yeah, I really hope and I think that's something wonderful about working in this field as we encourage each other again and again to keep doing the work. So working on streets like this.

01:00:31:14 - 01:00:55:04
John Simmerman
Yeah, working on streets like this. And for the listening audience, we're actually looking at that, that living street, the Place Street once again. And, and yeah, there's layers to it. We're we're looking to see some streets that are like living streets and play streets. But we're also looking at the reality of, yeah, I mean we also need to be able to get people around on public transit.

01:00:55:04 - 01:01:22:17
John Simmerman
So again, to the listening audience, which got the photo on screen here that has the bus stop and the bikes rolling by. And it looks like there is a bustling it looks like there is also automobile traffic versus what we see far too often here in North America and around the globe is a road, is an auto sewer where everything is just all about one mode of traffic and one mode of mobility.

01:01:22:17 - 01:01:46:14
John Simmerman
We want to see a little bit more balanced approach and balance in such a way that it is reflective of what our true visions are and aspirations are for a prosperous, creating a prosperous and healthy and well society. I bet it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so very much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

01:01:46:16 - 01:01:47:26
Babet Hendriks
Thanks for having me.

01:01:47:29 - 01:02:03:02
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed this conversation with Babette. If you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with friends. And if you haven't done so already, beaten or to have you subscribe to the channel, just click on that subscription button down below and ring the notifications bell.

01:02:03:04 - 01:02:20:26
John Simmerman
And if you are enjoying this content here on the Active Towns channel, please consider supporting my efforts through Patreon. Buy me a coffee YouTube Super. Thanks. Break down below. Just click on that button right down there. As well as making donations to the nonprofit and buying things from the active town store, get some sweets or for people swag out there.

01:02:20:26 - 01:02:40:16
John Simmerman
T-shirts, water bottles, coffee mugs, all sorts of good stuff. Again, thank you so much for tuning in. It's always wonderful to have you along for the ride. Until next time, Sir John signing off by wishing you a nice activity. Health and happiness. Cheers. And again sending a huge thank you to all my active town's ambassadors supporting the channel on Patron.

01:02:40:16 - 01:02:53:17
John Simmerman
Buy me a coffee YouTube super. Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the active town store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated. Thank you all so much.