Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:17:28
Laura Laker
And so my thinking is that, you know, this book isn't just for psychic campaigners, that it that I wanted it to be for anyone who thought, well, wouldn't it be nice if I could just cycle to town? I wish my kids could cycle to school, and I didn't have to drive them everywhere because, you know, it's such a financial suck and a time suck having to do all of this.

00:00:18:00 - 00:00:39:08
Laura Laker
And so I really wanted to aim it at, you know, anyone who's at who might be tempted to, you know, to cycle instead of driving for some journeys, and that's actually most people. So, yeah, I've had a few people who don't cycle read it and say they've enjoyed it, which makes me really happy because I think my editor was saying, you know, you're just going to get cycling people who are going to read this.

00:00:39:08 - 00:00:51:09
Laura Laker
But I, you know, I really believe that a proper network, it shouldn't be about being an enthusiast. You know, if you drive, you're not necessarily a motoring enthusiast. It's just the easiest way to get around. So yeah, that's that was my mission. And you know.

00:00:51:15 - 00:00:54:10
Laura Laker
It's been fairly well received, which I'm really pleased about.

00:00:54:12 - 00:01:21:15
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Laura Laker from the UK. Author of the new book Potholes and Pavements A Bumpy Ride on Britain's National Cycle Network. We are going to be diving into the book and, all about the national cycling network. There in the UK. So let's get right to it with Laura Laker.

00:01:21:18 - 00:01:26:01
John Simmerman
Laura Laker. Such a pleasure having you in the Active Towns podcast. Welcome.

00:01:26:03 - 00:01:28:25
Laura Laker
Yeah. Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

00:01:28:27 - 00:01:39:14
John Simmerman
So Laura I love giving my guests just an opportunity to introduce themselves. So I'm going to give you the floor for like 30s. Who the heck is Laura Laker.

00:01:39:17 - 00:02:03:17
Laura Laker
So I'm a journalist who writes mostly about, cycling and walking and active transport. And I've been doing this for about 12 years now. And yeah, it's kind of a campaigning role. I'm freelance. I have a podcast which you've been on, and, and yes, I sometimes go on as a talking head on radio and TV shows, and I wrote a book this year, last year.

00:02:03:18 - 00:02:10:02
Laura Laker
It's now 20, 25, called Potholes and Pavements, which I've snuck into my background here.

00:02:10:05 - 00:02:11:25
Laura Laker
Yeah. So you've been.

00:02:11:28 - 00:02:35:03
John Simmerman
And we've got and we've got it right here too, so we don't even have to have that little tiny view of it. We can actually pull that up, and we're going to spend a little bit of time later talking about the book and, how much fun I found your book. And I listened to your book because, and I always appreciate when, when people write a book like this and it's in their own voice.

00:02:35:11 - 00:03:05:02
John Simmerman
I love it when they actually record the book as well. So I had you in my head in my in my ears, on a lot of my travel when, when you and I met and, and we met in this format, we met being able to, record an episode of the Streets Ahead, podcast, talk a little bit about, Streets Ahead, as a podcast, the work that you and Ned and and Adam had been working on.

00:03:05:02 - 00:03:20:03
John Simmerman
And, for our interview, it was just the three of us, you and and myself and Adam. But we got to meet Ned because he was rushing off to to go to another, event just before we, started the recording session.

00:03:20:05 - 00:03:41:10
Laura Laker
Yeah, yeah, it's been hard to get us all lined up lately because Ned's very busy. He's a cycling commentator. He's commentating on the darts at the moment in the UK. So he does, several sports, because obviously cycling is mostly in the summer and spring. And, then Adam, is, runs a PR agency. He was cycling and walking commissioner for the West Midlands under the former mayor there.

00:03:41:12 - 00:04:01:08
Laura Laker
Did some amazing work there. And I kind of knew Adam through work. And he introduced me to Ned and suggested in early 2020. So shortly after the first lockdown, when the pandemic was, you know, really starting to take hold, that we start a podcast, I thought, well, great. But this famous commentator is not going to want to be on a podcast with, with us too.

00:04:01:08 - 00:04:25:06
Laura Laker
But he did so, and it's been such a great trio. You know, we talked about all sorts of things from, autonomous vehicles to, delivery riders to, you know, justice for victims of road, road crime and road death and, and yeah, we've done some fantastic things and, you know, missing disinformation, inactive travel, some really meaty stuff.

00:04:25:06 - 00:04:40:06
Laura Laker
And then we did one episode where we just got to play around on e-scooters, electric scooters. And then recently Ned and I got to join a bike bus, which is where lots of kids cycled to school with their parents en masse, and they all the you kind of pick, yeah, pick them up along the way. And that was really fun.

00:04:40:06 - 00:04:48:09
Laura Laker
So we did that just before Christmas. So yeah, it's a really fantastic thing to be a part of. And I think we're a good trio and people seem to really enjoy it. So yeah.

00:04:48:10 - 00:05:12:27
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I'm, I'm gonna click on over to the, the episodes that you have, here. And we don't have to go very far until we get to, episode number 18 right there. Listed season two, episode number 18. And that's, that's our little, photo that we took, out in front of the building, where we did, our studio.

00:05:12:27 - 00:05:25:14
John Simmerman
So that was a lot of fun. Thank you so much, once again, for for having me on that episode. It's always a joy for me to, to to be, you know, a guest on somebody else's podcast. It's super fun.

00:05:25:17 - 00:05:27:09
Laura Laker
In person as well.

00:05:27:11 - 00:05:49:14
John Simmerman
Yes. Yes. And in person. Yeah. Because we're doing this, you know, we're we're doing this through the interwebs, which is, which is fun. It really makes the world a little bit smaller. And we're able to do that, in, in sort of building up to talking about the book. Why don't you share a little bit about that origin story?

00:05:49:14 - 00:05:58:04
John Simmerman
How did this come about? And and what really inspired you to want to write this particular book?

00:05:58:06 - 00:06:17:07
Laura Laker
Yeah. So I wanted to write a book for ages, and I had been in the States, actually. And it's it was there that I came up with the idea of I was driving actually, down the, coastal highway between San Francisco and L.A. over a number of days, and I was listening to the audiobook of, John Steinbeck's Travels with Charley.

00:06:17:10 - 00:06:37:20
Laura Laker
And in it he decides that he has forgotten what America is like, you know, from the, Grapes of Wrath days and, and, you know, his kind of depictions of American life. And so he, he sets out on this quest to talk to American people and, and, you know, trying to find out, like, I take the pulse of the nation at the time.

00:06:37:20 - 00:06:54:13
Laura Laker
And it was such a wonderful book. And I thought, why wouldn't that be amazing to do that in the UK? But on a bike, of course, I'm not John Steinbeck and I haven't had, didn't have any books under my belt at the time. I'm just a cycling journalist. And, and then, the publisher contacted me about another project which ended up not happening.

00:06:54:13 - 00:07:08:25
Laura Laker
And, and when it transpired that, you know, it wasn't going to line up, I said, well, I've got an idea, actually, if you wanted to talk about that. And she was really keen and, and so we talked about it, she well, you know, you're talking about doing this ride on the National Cycling network and talking to people.

00:07:08:25 - 00:07:29:03
Laura Laker
How about you make a book about the National Cycle Network. And it was one of those kind of light bulb moments where I just thought, this makes sense, actually. And so, yeah. And so that's when, you know, we I started to put the pitch together and I what I wanted to do was travel around and then in each area of the UK to, have a different theme.

00:07:29:03 - 00:07:43:04
Laura Laker
And I kind of knew who I might talk to, who was based where along the way. And, and so I did this big pitch, which actually ended up being really helpful. Later when I came to write this book, and I had sort of tens of thousands of words to write, I thought, oh my goodness, where am I going to start?

00:07:43:06 - 00:08:21:03
Laura Laker
So I looked back to that initial plan I pitched and yeah, they said yes. And and it's been, it's been such an amazing journey because I hadn't really appreciated the amazing, kind of back story of the National Cycle Network in the UK. And like many networks around Europe particularly, they were started because of the work of volunteers and the very, very committed campaigners who realized that actually campaigning alone wasn't going to, you know, shift the dial in, culture that was very much moving towards a transport culture that was very much moving towards, you know, cars.

00:08:21:03 - 00:08:41:14
Laura Laker
And it was very much the focus in this country in the late 70s and before that, you know, prosperity equals motor vehicles for everyone. And they but a group of environmentalists and they realized actually, one, this is incredibly bad for the environment, but too, it's actually making our streets very dangerous. And there was a big made running through the city.

00:08:41:14 - 00:08:56:06
Laura Laker
And you know, they they ended up protesting. And then and then they thought, well, actually, let's see if we can work out where a nice cycle route might go. And they started to look. They lived in Bristol, which is an incredibly hilly city. If anyone's been there in the UK. Yeah.

00:08:56:08 - 00:08:58:27
Laura Laker
Yeah, it's got some really steep little hills, but then a.

00:08:58:27 - 00:09:17:12
Laura Laker
Couple of the flat bits are along the river valley. And then there was a former railway line between Bristol and a nearby city called bath, which is very beautiful. And so they, they found out who owned the land. And they started to ask, you know, can we repurpose this land for a cycle route? And then amazingly, they got a yes.

00:09:17:12 - 00:09:47:16
Laura Laker
Over time they got bit by bit by bit and built it themselves as volunteers. And there's a wonderful story from early on in the, and yeah, this is it, the Bristol Towpath Railway path, which was the very first part of the National Cycle Network. Yeah. And so once they delivered this, they realized there were lots of more old railway paths that had been decommissioned in the 1960s, that they could start to turn into cycleways.

00:09:47:16 - 00:10:07:21
Laura Laker
And they're already, flat and direct and they go to places that people needed to be. And so there were lots of campaigners, it turned out, all around the UK who were thinking along the same lines. And so John Grimshaw, who's pictured bottom right in here lifting, his bicycle over a gate, and by the way, that where that gate is, there was a they needed a bridge there.

00:10:07:21 - 00:10:16:02
Laura Laker
It's called Tuthill Sluices and the bridge got put in. So that picture was taken in the late 70s. That's what puts it in summer 2024.

00:10:16:05 - 00:10:20:21
Laura Laker
So 50 years later, yeah, it's it's so and so these are the.

00:10:20:21 - 00:10:47:02
Laura Laker
Kind of timescales. So, you know, they started to, join these. Well, just started to build different bits. And John would travel around the country. He was a civil engineer. And by the way, still pass with his small campaign organization. And so yeah. And then the millennium came along. There was a big fund from the National Lottery to, fund projects that that the that they felt would define an era.

00:10:47:08 - 00:11:05:21
Laura Laker
And so what was by then, this charity called Sustrans, decided that they were going to try and link up these disparate little bits of routes, and they really nothing, you know, just little tiny lines on the UK map. Really. And they said that that's what they did. They, they pitched this idea, they got their team together.

00:11:05:21 - 00:11:18:26
Laura Laker
They just to fairly arbitrary at times lines on the maps. And then it turns out they got the money. So, I don't know if any of your, viewers will know about Meat Loaf, but, Meat Loaf handed them the check live on the National Lottery TV show.

00:11:18:28 - 00:11:24:00
Laura Laker
Wow, that bit of rock and roll there. And so, yeah, they got 42.5.

00:11:24:00 - 00:11:25:09
Laura Laker
Million pounds, which, you.

00:11:25:09 - 00:11:26:27
Laura Laker
Know, is a big amount of money.

00:11:26:27 - 00:11:50:03
Laura Laker
But in infrastructure terms, even back in the late 90s, there's not a huge amount of money. And so they they sort of set about this incredible team of a small, small team of paid, paid staff. But a lot of volunteers was set about trying to make this a reality. And sometimes it was a case of, building a new route, and sometimes it was just a case of putting signage on quiet local lanes.

00:11:50:05 - 00:12:11:28
Laura Laker
And so, some of the people in the top left, so what some people think as a pair of underpants I'm holding that yellow thing is actually one of the early flags that they used to hang off the back of their bikes on a pole, to promote. They were trying to do because once they had this money, they then had to go round to the local authorities and get another, you know, well, a loss of that.

00:12:11:29 - 00:12:35:19
Laura Laker
Basically the National Lottery money was a quarter of what they needed, and they need to get the other three quarters from, from councils and from other charities and organizations. So, yeah, they set off literally on their bikes trying to raise all this money. And you can see on that graph there, you know, how much. And with me, in the picture with the flag in the middle is Xavier Brice, who's the Sustrans current CEO.

00:12:35:19 - 00:12:58:26
Laura Laker
And Sustrans is the charity that was formed out of this group of volunteers. And they now, amazingly, for a national piece of infrastructure run, and manage the National Cycle Network, even though they only own less than 5% of it, but they kind of corralled it. Very unwieldy thing, which involved landowners and local councils and goodness knows who and national bodies, to try and deliver and develop further routes.

00:12:58:26 - 00:13:23:29
Laura Laker
So, yeah, there was a big kind of increase in the number of miles. And then it leveled off, in the 2000 when the money for new routes ran out and they refocused their attention. And the point I tried to make, you know, there was all these amazing volunteers and the people with me in that picture, an incredible team of volunteers who keep this path up in the Pennines clear of, foliage and, snow.

00:13:23:29 - 00:13:52:26
Laura Laker
Sometimes, and dead branches and, and make artwork up there. But, you know, ultimately it's a very, very patchy situation. And having a national preserve structure run by volunteers and the charities far from ideal. And I really tried to make the case in the book that actually, you know, isn't this a wonderful thing? We have this network of leisure routes that they they stop at the border of towns, which is where you most need, you know, where most short journeys take place and where you would most need to have a cycle.

00:13:52:28 - 00:14:13:18
Laura Laker
And so that's the bit that's missing and that's the bit that really needs the local councils and national government to do the funding and to have a vision and to really deliver, what should be a proper national network of routes. Because as you'll have seen from some of those photos, you get some very odd bits, bits of it with steps, which obviously if you have a disability, if you can't, if your bike is impossible.

00:14:13:18 - 00:14:30:13
Laura Laker
I saw, one set of steps in Scotland near Loch Lomond with bollard, at the bottom and at the top. And I thought, my goodness, what they're expecting here a monster truck or something. But, you know, it's almost comical. You know, I'm able bodied and I can I can sort of lift and hoist and shove my bike.

00:14:30:13 - 00:14:59:21
Laura Laker
But, you know, this is not the case for everyone. And then there's bits of these quiet roads, then became much busier. And so, yeah, I posted the book, was thinking about what is a cycle network and all these beautiful leisure routes that Sustrans built. You know, what if they started to join up properly and, you know, instead of kind of at the moment they give up on the edge of towns, which is where it gets politically difficult, where you're starting to look at, you know, route space reallocation, and then it gets political and then you start getting people shouting at you.

00:14:59:21 - 00:15:18:28
Laura Laker
So, top right, this, route in the Lake District and a big storm in a few years ago washed away several bridges. And it took years for Sustrans to get enough money to build these, this kind of the bridges back. And, and they tarmacked it and there was a big uproar because it's, you know, it's a Lake District, it's a national park.

00:15:18:28 - 00:15:48:21
Laura Laker
It's famous the world over and treasured. And it just felt, you know, people were outraged that they were laying tarmac. But actually, you know, what it did for people, was enable those who use, mobility aids and like this gentleman, recumbent trike. I mean, that's actually an off road vehicle, you know, in size terms. But we saw women, in a mobility scooter, you know, with the small wheels, and she wouldn't have been able to, you know, someone in a wheelchair and and someone using one of those wouldn't have been able to use the path before when it was dirt.

00:15:48:23 - 00:16:10:00
Laura Laker
And so I really tried to make the case, you know, this should be treated as a proper transport network. And bottom left, here's a man called Ed who was working for Sustrans, trying to remove the barriers that are also big accessibility issue. And now he's accounts green councilor in Bristol. But you know is a big the such transit doing a lot of great work.

00:16:10:00 - 00:16:29:07
Laura Laker
But, you know they're very they've just, well, they just announced that they had a 30%, funding cut the casino, the vagaries of being a charity in a financially constrained situation. So, you know, it's a fascinating story and it's such a story of people power. I mean, at one point I wanted to call it pedals and people power.

00:16:29:07 - 00:16:32:08
Laura Laker
And because I was worried it, you know, it sounded a bit negative.

00:16:32:08 - 00:16:54:20
Laura Laker
But, you know, I think it I think it grabs people's attention anyway. And, you know, but really it is a celebration of this wonderful network which was built by the people. And, you know, we know people want to cycle more. We know that when people in Britain, are surveyed about how they want to get around, most people want to be able to cycle more.

00:16:54:22 - 00:17:13:07
Laura Laker
And the number one reason they don't is because they don't want to share the roads with motor vehicles, with moving traffic, which is totally understandable. And so my thinking is that, you know, this book isn't just for cycle campaigners that it that I wanted it to be for anyone who thought, well, wouldn't it be nice if I could just cycle to town with my kids because I go to school?

00:17:13:08 - 00:17:31:02
Laura Laker
I didn't have to drive them everywhere because, you know, it's such a financial suck in a time sort of having to do all of this. And so I really wanted to aim it at, you know, anyone who's at who might be tempted to, you know, to cycle instead of driving for some journeys. And that's actually most people.

00:17:31:05 - 00:17:45:13
Laura Laker
So, yeah, I've had a few people who don't cycle read it and say they've enjoyed it, which makes me really happy because I think my editor was saying, you know, you're just going to get cycling people who are going to read this bike. You know, I really believe that a proper network, it shouldn't be about being an enthusiast.

00:17:45:13 - 00:17:53:12
Laura Laker
You know, if you drive, you're not necessarily a motoring enthusiast. It's just the easiest way of getting around. So yeah, that's meant that was my mission. And, you know, it's been fairly.

00:17:53:12 - 00:17:56:06
Laura Laker
Well received, which I'm really pleased about. Yeah.

00:17:56:09 - 00:18:29:29
John Simmerman
And I think the I mean, it really gets to the point what is a cycle network and who is it for. And and I think that that is a really good thing to, to lean into a little bit more here because you mentioned it. It's like people with mobility devices find these incredibly empowering. And and you mentioned a couple of time leisure routes and you know the the conception of it is that, oh, well, this is you know, this is for you know, for, for getting out and getting some exercise good for your health and your wellbeing and all that kind of stuff.

00:18:29:29 - 00:19:04:27
John Simmerman
And it's like, yes, but when you really look at the the true power or of these types of leisure or recreational facilities, they really shine when they connect people to meaningful destinations as well. Yeah, certainly in in remote locations it may be just leisure, it may be just for adventure. But the reality is, is that in in many situations, in many, communities and this is world wide, this isn't just the UK, this isn't just in the United States.

00:19:04:29 - 00:19:18:21
John Simmerman
I mean, you know, here's here's the the graphic from Copenhagen and looking at, you know, what we're looking at in terms of like the average trip length is about 7.5 miles. And but the point is this is.

00:19:18:23 - 00:19:19:09
Laura Laker
A long way.

00:19:19:09 - 00:19:23:07
Laura Laker
It's a it's longer than you might expect if you're not in this world.

00:19:23:07 - 00:19:23:19
Laura Laker
Yeah.

00:19:23:19 - 00:19:56:04
John Simmerman
Yeah yeah. And I think it's, it's it's always I think the best bang for our buck. You know when we're talking about taxpayer dollars and money going into building infrastructure and yeah, just that whole thing that you've got a charity Sustrans, that is like charged with doing all this. And then in the end you make that comparison to like Denmark or, you know, the Netherlands and how they fund these, you know, critical connectors, these critical routes for active mobility.

00:19:56:06 - 00:20:08:24
John Simmerman
I mean, it's the approach that they take is much more analogous to the way that the UK and the United States funds automobile infrastructure. I mean, they're serious about building it out.

00:20:08:26 - 00:20:36:27
Laura Laker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I kind of I really wrestled with, you know, to your initial point about leisure versus commuting and I, I really wrestle with, you know, it shouldn't be a leisure network. And I think this is a common criticism of our National Cycle Network and actually a lot of infrastructure. And I'm and I imagine it's the same in the United States that, you know, you get these beautiful leisure trails, but then, you know, nobody wants to take space away from or, you know, reallocate road space towards walking, cycling from motor vehicles.

00:20:36:27 - 00:20:57:20
Laura Laker
But actually, you know, after my journey, you know, take a year or so to cycle round in bits and bobs. I kind of realize actually, you know, and the stats bear this out. Actually, most of our trips are for leisure. We think commuting is the be all and end all. And actually leisure is, you know, is incredibly port important for our wellbeing.

00:20:57:27 - 00:21:22:16
Laura Laker
You know, socializing, physical health. That's not to say that, you know, I'm down on commuting, but, you know, commuting is obviously very important. It's what keeps the economy ticking over. And, you know, and it's, you know, it's day to day. That's what we're doing a lot. But yeah, I think I think both are important. And as Xavier Bryce, the CEO of Sustrans, put it to me and we had quite a long debate about this on the train on the way back from the Pennines when we did that trip.

00:21:22:18 - 00:21:42:23
Laura Laker
You know, we don't ask what the road networks for, like what kind of purposes. It's something which has really good points. We don't ask someone, you know, if they're going to work or if they're driving, you know, to the to the park. And, you know, this is this is a strange thing about cycling. We feel like we need to justify what it's for and what we're doing.

00:21:42:23 - 00:21:59:15
Laura Laker
And there's this assumption that if you're driving, you're doing something important because that's just the way that we've seen it historically. And and yeah, and I think we really need to shift that, that kind of perception. And certainly in the UK you're more likely to be commuting on bikes. And you are when if you're in a car, just the proportions work that way.

00:21:59:17 - 00:22:24:29
Laura Laker
But yeah, I mean in other countries, cycling is treated as, as any other kind of, infrastructure. And so local authorities and regional bodies and national bodies all get together and they say, right, well, where do we need these routes to go? And they might start with the most places of most demand, which would be in the cities, because that's where most people live and where a lot of short journeys are taking place that are easily cycled and walked.

00:22:25:01 - 00:23:00:17
Laura Laker
And then they start to build out, you know, into their sort of peri urban areas, into urban areas. And yeah, and rural, rural parts are really important, not just for leisure, but actually, you know, rural communities are often, very impoverished in terms of transport, the only option for people is to drive. And, and in the UK and in a lot of Europe, and I'm sure in parts of the US, even though it's a gigantic and sprawling nation that there are places where, you know, a, a farm or a little hamlet of as bill of houses would be within cycling distance of the nearest town.

00:23:00:17 - 00:23:21:10
Laura Laker
If, you know, if there was a path to enable people to do that, then you know, that changes people's lives. And I think Navarro reports have have kind of more value per person just because there are so few options, you know, public transport, poor, there's a lot of poverty in rural areas. And so running and owning a car is, is, you know, cripplingly expensive.

00:23:21:12 - 00:23:39:01
Laura Laker
So yeah, I think, it really made me question a lot of things. I mean, I grew up in, in the countryside and in Somerset, and I would love to cycle to school, but there was a 60 mile an hour winding, narrow road, the kind that I said in my book kind of freak American tourists out because they're so there's no sightlines.

00:23:39:03 - 00:23:43:17
Laura Laker
And when you're passing the vehicle, it's like, yeah.

00:23:43:19 - 00:24:07:00
John Simmerman
And and we have, we have up on screen here, you know, a snapshot of one of the case studies from the Netherlands, that you highlight in, in this presentation. But one of the things that I love about the, the approach, that the Dutch have is this concept of mobility choice. You just mentioned that choice of being able to choose your mobility options.

00:24:07:00 - 00:24:35:22
John Simmerman
And I think the Dutch do this really, really well, even for their, their rural, you know, farmland type, areas and small villages, you can always get there through a multitude of mobility options. You can choose to, you know, ride the, you know, ten kilometers or whatever it is, to get to the next village and you'll go through, you know, wonderful farmland on a, you know, accommodation.

00:24:35:22 - 00:24:57:10
John Simmerman
It could be like what we're seeing on screen here, which is over a, a bridge over a canal or river. And, and you see that there's a the red tarmac for, people, on wheels, whether they're bikes, cycles or mobility devices on, on wheels. And then also, a great tarmac there for people who are walking.

00:24:57:10 - 00:25:24:02
John Simmerman
And so you always have this mobility choice. There's that active mobility choice that's always there option that's always there. But frequently you can take a train. You can you can take, you know, public transit, you can drive a motor vehicle. And so they're not you know, it's not just one option which too often in car centric, you know, car dependent cities and nations and regions, there's only one option.

00:25:24:02 - 00:25:54:00
John Simmerman
And that's the car. And that's that's what you were describing earlier with, you know, there's only one way. It's 60 mile an hour and it's narrow and it's not safe. You know, you kind of imagine that if that was in the Netherlands, yeah, you would have been able to ride on a, you know, on a pathway that, you know, uses some form of right of way, whether that's along a canal or literally just through, you know, the countryside.

00:25:54:02 - 00:26:21:06
John Simmerman
And they find a way to make that happen, which is just phenomenal that even you know, the progress that has been made with the national cycling network that, you know, it's they've been able to cobble that together. And you really did a great job in the book of highlighting the fact that part of the biggest challenge is getting access to that right of way and negotiating with the landowners and, and and all that sort of stuff.

00:26:21:06 - 00:26:35:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. And then the other thing I was going to mention is oftentimes you kind of you alluded to it earlier is oftentimes it's rights of way that have been abandoned, like the old not in no longer used rail corridors.

00:26:35:26 - 00:26:53:24
Laura Laker
Yeah. That's right. And yeah, I mean, the way that it's thought about in the Netherlands is, is, I've got a Dutch friend who says because they've had to, you know, because it's such a low lying country and because they've had to keep the key out that the, as a nation very, very good at forward planning and infrastructure planning.

00:26:53:27 - 00:27:21:26
Laura Laker
And one thing I loved about that Muswell Pad story, the the bridge over that gigantic river, is that, part of the business case was that that path would help to remove some of the congestion on a motorway three miles and down kind of downstream, if you like. Right. Which, you know, which I find mind boggling, but actually these, highways that go into cities quite a lot of the time, the journeys on them are quite short, and it's because they're spring communities.

00:27:21:26 - 00:27:49:00
Laura Laker
And to get across them, you're basically forced to drive. And this is a particular issue in the United States, I think, because of that, just the way that roads are built, they really sever communities. And so I thought that was really powerful. And, and one thing I learned when I was researching the book was that actually the, the national network in the Netherlands, which came before the process in cities over the deaths of children on, on the roads, you know, drivers hitting and killing children.

00:27:49:02 - 00:28:10:13
Laura Laker
Was that, they were they were campaigning for leisure routes, these, these kind of cyclists. And the government agreed and started building them. But what they actually realized that was that, people were using them for commuting because of the reasons I talked about earlier. And so it was it was this amazing thing. It unlocked something that people didn't even realize, was going to happen.

00:28:10:15 - 00:28:37:09
Laura Laker
But you know that because they treat cycle routes like, transport, they have, you know, they have a kind of process of accessing the land. And in this country, in the UK, and I imagine it's the same in the US, is a compulsory purchase order. So if there's a nationally important piece of infrastructure like a railway or road, and then, you know, someone owns a land where it's being planned, the government will purchase the land.

00:28:37:11 - 00:28:53:08
Laura Laker
And, and that that happens for roads in the UK and it happens for rail, but never happens for cycle routes. It almost never happens. And it's not even on the table. And because Sustrans is a charity, there's no way that they would ever broach that. Because once you you've the relationships broken down between you and the farmer.

00:28:53:11 - 00:29:20:29
Laura Laker
Then everything's off the table until, you know, the land is sold or they, you know, they die in someone else. And it's. Yeah, it's very much about this very painstaking process. And, you know, not that, you know, snatching land right, left and center is, is is always the right option, but it has to be a middle way, you know, for the sake of helping give people transport options and improve the air and reduce congestion on the on the existing roads.

00:29:20:29 - 00:29:48:10
Laura Laker
I think there does need to be, you know, more seriousness around the way that we look at, building cycle paths in the UK. And, you know, maybe things are changing in the UK, to think about things more strategically. Certainly the current current government's been talking about thinking about transport more strategically, and that would include linking up cycling and walking routes to public transport, say so if you can, if the first bit of your journey, from your door to the nearest bus stop is terrible, then chances are you're not going to do it.

00:29:48:10 - 00:30:03:29
Laura Laker
If there's no bus shelter. If the busses unreliable and so it's past, you have to think about the, you know, like the Dutch. Do you like the Danish? Do you think about the journey from end to end? And not just think about little random pieces because, you know, that's how we built roads. We just need to think slightly differently.

00:30:03:29 - 00:30:21:23
Laura Laker
And I'm hopeful that things are starting to change. You know, we've got some great examples from around the world where it is starting to happen. And it's been a great, successful, and Manchester has just taken over its bus network into the city ownership because the privatized model is working and they're doing cycling, and walking is part of that.

00:30:21:23 - 00:30:37:20
Laura Laker
And so that is starting to integrate in the same way that we've got in London, you know, which is seeing huge growth in cycling. We've got 1.3 million cycle journeys in the city a day. And that's because of a decade or more of, you know, building infrastructure that people want to use.

00:30:37:20 - 00:31:19:16
John Simmerman
So yeah. And I think that, you know, it's worth mentioning, too, that, you know, for instance, in the Netherlands and also in, in Denmark, a large portion of their quote unquote cycle network is actually on road facilities and 60, 70% of the Dutch network is actually forms of shared space. They're literally like bicycle priority streets and feed streets and traffic calming neighborhoods, similar to, there in the UK, the ltns, you know, where there's the in a motor vehicle traffic is shunted off and but there's active mobility permeability through, the modal filters and the blockades that are there.

00:31:19:16 - 00:32:04:11
John Simmerman
So it's worth noting that, the overall concept of having a cycle network, and routes, all ages and abilities, routes where people can feel comfortable, is, is there's like this there's an integration of it. But you did mention something about, you know, these longer distance sort of concepts and being able to inspire even, sort of tourism and, and longer, longer journeys because some of the things that you did, you, you took on some pretty long ventures and, you know, you even have like, you know, a bike packing sort of, bike touring sort of approach to it.

00:32:04:16 - 00:32:34:16
John Simmerman
And that brings to mind the, the Euro Velo network and the fact that, you know, they're really conceiving of these incredibly long routes. And then they, you know, obviously then also get, you know, sort of integrated into the, into the existing network. So when you zoom in and you look at some of the networks, that exist, you know, in the Netherlands, you've got some of the routes are considered like, you know, the pleasure route along the waterfront and all that.

00:32:34:23 - 00:33:01:17
John Simmerman
But it it certainly goes into some of these cities and villages and all that, and it gets integrated and you see all of that. So I did want to point out that there is that concept and, you know, the Euro velo, and the SKF, the European Cyclist Federation, you know, are working to try to like, integrate and, you know, have that part of it because it is it's all interrelated.

00:33:01:17 - 00:33:20:05
John Simmerman
And I, I'm with you. I think it's kind of silly that we like, try to like, name things and say, oh, well, this is just leisure and this is just for, for recreation versus. But if it happens to connect people to a meaningful destination, then it should be utilitarian to it. It can be both.

00:33:20:07 - 00:33:50:11
Laura Laker
Yeah. And tourism. You know, tourism is legitimate. You know, if we're thinking about economics is a huge, contribution to the UK economy and I'm sure to lots of communities and there have been various, kind of initiatives to try and bring people out of, the honeypot destinations in places like the Lake District. You know, everyone crowds in and actually the tourist numbers become a problem just because of their sheer volume, while other places, you know, really kind of down at heel and, you know, equally beautiful, but they just don't get the money.

00:33:50:13 - 00:34:23:17
Laura Laker
And yeah, cycle tourism is worse. And like 389 million pounds a year in the UK. Although, you know, when I talk to Visit Britain about about it, they seem to think it was more like 63 million. So we just don't know. And the camel Trail, which may or may not be on one of these pictures, which is a beautiful rural path in Cornwall, that is the second biggest tourist destination in Cornwall, but it's often forgotten from, you know, if there's a local news story about the top ten Cornish destinations in Cornwall, ISM is a very big kind of tourist destination.

00:34:23:17 - 00:34:44:12
Laura Laker
In the summer. It's beautiful beaches. It's the sunniest, one of the sunniest parts of the UK being in the south. And yeah, and it's just kind of forgotten. People just overlook it. And so I think there's a kind of, there's a PR issue, but you know, there's there's definitely roads that are leisure routes. The North Wales Highway, is a great kind of, road trip route.

00:34:44:12 - 00:35:05:19
Laura Laker
And and there's plenty of them in the US. And, you know, why shouldn't we do both? But yeah, they can. I think they can double up. And as we saw from the Copenhagen example, you know, 7.5 mile average journey on this on these routes is, you know, not inconsiderate, not not inconsiderate, distance. And when I was traveling, quite a lot of the time, I had my pink electric bike, which you'll see in a couple of pictures.

00:35:05:21 - 00:35:21:08
Laura Laker
And, you know, if you've got an e-bike, then you could do 15 miles in an hour, you know, which is, you know, a lot of people commute for an hour or 45 minutes a day. And actually, it's really fun, you know? Yeah, it's it's a great way to get around. So. And it keeps you fit.

00:35:21:10 - 00:35:50:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And what I also loved about, the book is just the all the stories and the characters that you, you, you know, shared there and, and, and I, one of the photos that we have here, we see the person in the wheelchair trying to navigate some of these barriers, because that was another theme that that came up is that, you know, mind bogglingly, I, you know, why they did this?

00:35:50:20 - 00:36:23:15
John Simmerman
I know why they, you know, on these off street network of pathways they went through and put up bollards and, and gates and all these sorts of things to try to dissuade motorcycles from zooming and using these things. But, you know, the, the, the problem, of course, was, you know, the unintended consequence of making it difficult for people in mobility devices like wheelchairs, people, parents with cargo bikes trying to get their kids to a meaningful destination.

00:36:23:18 - 00:36:36:05
John Simmerman
It created barriers. And so I know that that was part of the drama that came that you highlight in the book is, oops, we kind of messed that up. And then trying to break down some of those barriers.

00:36:36:08 - 00:36:55:11
Laura Laker
And actually that picture, of me and Isabelle Clement, who, we, we she gets a chapter in the book, because she's so interesting and she's got a hand cycle which she, uses to propel the wheelchair. And she discovered this attachment in her 30s, and she said it just changed her life, because instead of having to rely on taxis or driving herself, she can just power herself along.

00:36:55:11 - 00:37:13:17
Laura Laker
The one thing that was stopping her was, you know, the infrastructure or lack of and actually, that barrier wasn't on the national cycling that what we were trying to find, the nickname we'd lost. The signage is quite often missing in urban areas. The street changes take place and there's no money or no kind of, system to replace them.

00:37:13:17 - 00:37:31:00
Laura Laker
So they would just get forgotten and then lost. So we ended up in the wrong place, and she ended up having to detach the front wheel. So, you know, at this point, she said to me, you know, when I say that most people can cycle, I don't mean for every journey, and it's because of things like that, because you know, this all adds friction.

00:37:31:00 - 00:37:46:27
Laura Laker
And every time she has to start up, she's got electric assist on the hand cycle. But it's not, you know, your upper body especially is a woman. It's not the same as your lower body. So having to start, especially if you're stopping in the wrong gear, that having to start to get the motor moving, is quite a strain on your upper body.

00:37:47:00 - 00:38:07:16
Laura Laker
So yeah, there's all these issues, but, you know, she is fantastic and she's she's, she calls herself a gung ho cyclist, which is, what I, what I called the, the that chapter. And, you know, given a smooth, stretch of tarmac, she can go and, you know, she's very confident, she's very able. And it, you know, it gives her endorphins and keeps her healthy and and.

00:38:07:16 - 00:38:31:27
Laura Laker
Yeah, she's and so she's become this incredible, advocate and runs with wheels for wellbeing, the charity. And they've been incredibly powerful, shifting the dial and the, you know, the Department of Transport's understanding of who a cyclist is and, you know, the implications of asking people to dismount and all of that because it's such a liberator and it's so joyful and, and, you know, people are disabled by their environment.

00:38:31:27 - 00:38:46:23
Laura Laker
Sometimes it's like, you know, if you build something, a decent neighborhood, then everyone should be able to get around and no matter your ability. So that's the, that's the ideal world. I, I came away imagining and, you know, there are there are little bits of it. We just kind of need to join it up.

00:38:46:25 - 00:39:03:18
John Simmerman
Yeah. And, I had a chance to to meet her at the Fellows City conference, the week after you and I met up there in London. And, she and I chatted a little bit. I'm going to be sure to get her on the podcast as well to talk about, wheels for wellbeing. And I just love this.

00:39:03:18 - 00:39:27:18
John Simmerman
I mean, this is so much I get so excited about this, because this is what I mean when I say we need to be building activity assets that are for all ages and abilities. This is what I mean. This is not quote unquote, you know, the, infrastructure that is, is for that quote unquote avid cyclists or the sport and recreation racer and etc..

00:39:27:19 - 00:39:50:17
John Simmerman
No, no, no, no, no. When we say cyclist, we really do mean anybody who gets around on these wheels, either under their own power or with a little bit of electric assist. This is mobility for people. And I think it's really, really important to understand that when we talk about these types of cycling networks, how empowering they really are.

00:39:50:17 - 00:39:56:15
John Simmerman
It's not just for, that able bodied, fit athlete.

00:39:56:18 - 00:40:15:11
Laura Laker
Yeah, exactly. And even just surfacing, I've got a friend who's quite nervous about going on gravel. She fell off, on some gravel. And so any sort of loose surface, she slows right down. It just really, you know, it really kind of scared her. So. Yeah. And, you know, having a loose surface really slows you down. So it means you can ride less far.

00:40:15:13 - 00:40:39:09
Laura Laker
I think if we're designing for everyone, then everyone benefits. Really. If you want to ride off road, then there's plenty of other options. But I think for transport network it really should be for everyone. And we are starting to see this. And there's some there's some good examples here. I mean, the top right there is in Glasgow in Scotland, the stocking seal Bridge, which is a roughly a 14 million pound bridge, gigantic thing across the junction of the canal.

00:40:39:11 - 00:41:00:24
Laura Laker
And that was just about to be finished. When I went, up to Scotland, there was a heat wave. It was almost 30 degrees, I mean, which is hot for up there, actually, it felt very hot on that's on that building site. But yeah. And and that, that was, you know, accessible all, all smooth and, and sort of steady ramp so that it's not too much hard work on a, in a wheelchair.

00:41:00:27 - 00:41:20:26
Laura Laker
And there's lots of kind of artwork around it, which is all built by the community, including a disabled arts groups. Quite often disabled people aren't recognized and unrepresented in artworks, but yeah, I mean, yeah. And you know what one thing Isabel said was that, you know, you you don't have to as a disabled person, quite often, you are excluded from beautiful places.

00:41:20:26 - 00:41:42:27
Laura Laker
And so, you know, that's another that's another great big tick. And yeah, there was some fantastic bits of, route when I was, adventuring around the UK, I saw a really good one in Exeter, which goes from the city out along the river. I see a couple of, kind of villages along the way, and there's a ferry at the end so you can go round and come back or, you know, people can commuting to work on, on it.

00:41:42:27 - 00:42:01:28
Laura Laker
And a sign saying it's X number of miles to the next, next village or yeah, same in Wales. I saw some great, great, examples of, you know, smooth surface routes with signage and. Yeah, and places that are accessible to everyone. Yeah. The signage is a big one, actually.

00:42:01:28 - 00:42:05:24
Laura Laker
The signage and I realize, you know, anticipating.

00:42:05:24 - 00:42:25:04
John Simmerman
What I was going to. Yeah. You're anticipating what I want to phone, zoom in on is, is the signage. Yeah. Because this is a little bit about it. Also sort of highlighted in the book was the signage talk a little bit more about, this, this very recognizable, signage and wayfinding on the.

00:42:25:07 - 00:42:33:15
Laura Laker
Yeah. So, on one of my early rides, I took, well, now my ex with me and, I took I saw my first some.

00:42:33:15 - 00:42:57:11
Laura Laker
Of these signs. So the the National Cycle Network in the UK, all of the routes assigned with this blue signage. And then there's a little number in a red box, which you can see on that signpost, just about, you can see a little red blob that's the number. And sometimes it's just stickers. So because it's volunteers signing the route sometimes and, you know, this signpost was put up with specific funding for signing this particular route.

00:42:57:11 - 00:43:14:17
Laura Laker
There isn't just, you know, funds for every. So it's very, very mixed. Sometimes it's literally just a sticker on a lamppost. And quite often it's just a stick on a lamp post. Of course, lampposts that get, you know, people drive into them, they get moved to new housing development happens, and then the post replaced and the sticker is never replaced.

00:43:14:20 - 00:43:28:24
Laura Laker
And if unless you've got a very dedicated team of volunteers. So yeah, I, you know, when you first see the stickers are so hard to see, but then you get you get an eye for them, your eye, you get your eye in and then you start to see them. But you're really kind of riding along, scanning the road.

00:43:29:01 - 00:43:31:08
Laura Laker
And they could be, you know, over there.

00:43:31:12 - 00:43:33:00
Laura Laker
They could be over there.

00:43:33:00 - 00:43:54:11
Laura Laker
They could be, you know, you just don't know what size, what they're going to look like. They could have faded to white, so they might not even be blue anymore. And I remember my first few journeys just being like, for goodness sake, this is ridiculous. And I had this. I was at the Ordnance Survey map, which has got a layer on it, but I think I didn't have it in the app, had it on my phone and the accuracy was extremely bad, like a mile out.

00:43:54:18 - 00:43:59:08
Laura Laker
So I was then going on Google Maps. I'm really bad with technology.

00:43:59:11 - 00:44:14:01
Laura Laker
And I so I was riding through these country lanes, like, where am I? Where are the signs? I saw a blue arrow going. It's like, is it something else? So I asked this guy and he's like, oh yeah. And seeing one is this way. And he was just making it up, you know, like guys do sometimes kill.

00:44:14:07 - 00:44:19:25
Laura Laker
And I saw him later on and I was like, oh, he just is making up. Anyway. So I go in these great big loops. But yeah, quite.

00:44:19:25 - 00:44:48:07
Laura Laker
Often in towns that's where it's bad. And then it's just so frustrating. Even from the train station, you know, you get a train somewhere with your bike and then you want to go on to your next destination and you can't find it from the train station. It's just I mean, an example, a good example in that, in that one of those pictures is outside the train station in Plymouth, on the Devon coast to coast route, which is lovely, but yeah, it's really and then you get a piece of pavement and sometimes there's a diagram of what you're supposed to do, which I really feel like, you know, the systems failed.

00:44:48:07 - 00:45:06:05
Laura Laker
If you have to draw a diagram of what needs to happen. So, yeah, you kind of go in the road and then back on the thing and then you're sharing with a pedestrian and then. Yeah. And these are some funny examples. The guy in the top, middle, I made friends with because I was so desperate leaving Dover, I was, like, going around in a big circle.

00:45:06:05 - 00:45:10:16
Laura Laker
Sometimes people, like, turn the signs for fun.

00:45:10:18 - 00:45:21:00
Laura Laker
And then you just go in a circle you like, oh, oh, I see what's happened. Haha. And so this guy, Yeah. Steve, he's, he said.

00:45:21:00 - 00:45:22:00
Laura Laker
I'll show you. Don't worry.

00:45:22:00 - 00:45:23:02
Laura Laker
So we met, I made.

00:45:23:02 - 00:45:34:11
Laura Laker
Friends with Steve and he showed me the way and we're like, crossing the road. And we ended up still. We still end up in the wrong place because, you know, a local. We missed the sign and ended up on this bottom left thing, like, which is, thing on a pavement which says end.

00:45:34:15 - 00:45:38:03
Laura Laker
And then it's like an arrow, which is so hopeful because there's four.

00:45:38:03 - 00:45:56:16
Laura Laker
Lanes of it's a four lane roundabout with, kind of heavy freight traffic coming out of the port of Dover, which is absolutely terrifying even to an experienced cyclist. So, yeah. And then you've got the bit in Cornwall where there was a beach and there'd been such subsidence this the ANC, and it just kind of slipped away in the road.

00:45:56:16 - 00:46:13:17
Laura Laker
It said, no access. But the NCN was still open for business and I just ended up bumping my e-bike, which must have weight. I don't know how much it weighed at that point. Fully laden. Good. 40 kilos, probably, down onto the sandy beach. So, yeah, it was quite. I mean, like my friend Claire, who's down there in the middle.

00:46:13:19 - 00:46:31:09
Laura Laker
The bottom are you who's great? Who I did a lot of the adventures with on the kind of gravel bike. She said, you know, the NCN feels like an adventure because you don't know what you're going to get, which is great, because, you know, Claire is very strong and fit. You know, I'm okay. And, yeah. So for us, it's like we can laugh it off.

00:46:31:09 - 00:46:52:09
Laura Laker
But, you know, as we said before, it's not a network for everyone. And Sustrans knows this and, you know, is very open about this or you know, bottom right. There's a bit outside Bristol train station where you have to cross the road several times with pedestrians and it's very hard to find. You have to go across the tree pit and then press a button, and then you do another ten yards and you press a button.

00:46:52:12 - 00:46:57:24
Laura Laker
Yeah. So, it's yeah, it was it's kind of funny. I was very frustrated at points, but yeah.

00:46:57:27 - 00:46:58:19
Laura Laker
Yeah.

00:46:58:22 - 00:47:32:27
John Simmerman
It brings us back to, to just how I mean, mind boggling it is that it's been relegated to a charity to try to do this. I mean, be and you talk about this in the book is that it's, there's, there isn't that necessarily that consistency. You've got certain areas that are just amazingly well done and the volunteer network is, is really engaged and there's a certain sense of, of ownership and in entitlement and you're not really entitlement.

00:47:32:27 - 00:47:49:06
John Simmerman
That's not the right word but really engagement. And but then you'll get to another area where there just isn't that energy, there isn't that engagement in. And it shouldn't be that way when you're talking about, you know, a national cycling network.

00:47:49:08 - 00:48:10:17
Laura Laker
No. Exactly. Yeah. Imagine if road maintenance was, was down to, you know, a farmer with a broom or that's kind of what it amounts to. And then and then people retire. Sometimes it's the same volunteers. It started with the National Cycle Network starting. So who've been doing it for 40 plus years, which is incredible. I met a couple of them and they're elderly people now.

00:48:10:17 - 00:48:37:17
Laura Laker
And you just think, well, when they stop being able to do this, what's going to happen? And, you know, volunteering is great when you're retired. It's really great for your mental and physical wellbeing. And I met people whose lives have been, you know, improved by being able to volunteer and contribute something. But then, you know, people stopped volunteering for whatever reason and get to sell Sustrans or just to rural, and they can't get anyone in that particular area, and everyone's got all the volunteers have like a different way of signing stuff.

00:48:37:17 - 00:48:42:20
Laura Laker
So some people don't want to clutter the road too much, which I shook my fist at them quite a bit.

00:48:42:22 - 00:49:03:09
Laura Laker
Like just clutter the road for goodness sake. I keep going the wrong way. But you know, they mean well and they're doing amazing stuff. And, you know, these these volunteers are really, you know, the kind of the people that are the glue of society, which is great, but we really shouldn't have to rely on, on, you know, the goodwill of a few of a few people because.

00:49:03:09 - 00:49:22:05
Laura Laker
It means that there are gaps. Yeah, yeah. And Sustrans does amazing stuff, but, top left there, I think it's a path. I think that was the one. Yeah. There's a path in Dover that goes between Folkestone and Dover, and they've resurfaced a mile or two for like half 1 million pounds, which is an absolute bargain. And infrastructure terms, I think I've got the numbers right.

00:49:22:05 - 00:49:39:08
Laura Laker
Anyway. It was. Yeah, it was very cheap. So yeah they can, you know, they can really do stuff at a fraction of the cost of what a road body would do. But and they yeah, they do some great stuff, but they're really, you know, up against it is that, I mean, my editor and people have said, you know, reading it, it's just the frustrations.

00:49:39:08 - 00:49:47:21
Laura Laker
Are endless on this page perhaps depicts because like, yeah, I mean, yeah, somewhere in the the second from the right at the top.

00:49:47:23 - 00:50:06:22
Laura Laker
There's a, there was a landslip by a reservoir in the Lake District and no one is on the NCN and no one told Sustrans. Eventually someone tried to cycle it and the road blocks. And the only alternative is a thunderous a road like a main road. And it's so frightening and dangerous and fast. It's one of the busiest roads in the UK, let alone the Lake District.

00:50:06:29 - 00:50:25:09
Laura Laker
And that's your detour. So you can imagine if you're going for a nice bike ride through the Lake District. So you also, you think and yeah, and there's no money to fund it. A road the same storm that did that, damage to main road which got replaced repaired very quickly. And yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's.

00:50:25:12 - 00:50:48:27
Laura Laker
Yeah. I don't think that's quite fixed yet. And then that picture was a diversion and all the stripey barriers that's near the Severn Bridge and the diversion there is scary. I've done it a few times. And that's just the Environment Agency finishing off some work. And they've just diverted along a busy road. So you get steps and gates and the funny little random bollards and then bits where they've oh, the, the bollard with the steps is top left there.

00:50:48:27 - 00:51:04:00
Laura Laker
And I told you about yeah. So yeah, like I said, I can I can kind of laugh at this. But you know, Sustrans would love to replace all of and and repair all of this stuff, but they just don't have the money and they don't have the powers, that you need to make changes to the roads and,

00:51:04:02 - 00:51:07:11
Laura Laker
Yeah, do all of this, but yeah, they do a remarkable job, but it's just it's.

00:51:07:11 - 00:51:08:06
Laura Laker
Too much for any.

00:51:08:06 - 00:51:09:28
Laura Laker
Charity.

00:51:10:00 - 00:51:45:18
John Simmerman
Well, it's just the example that we keep coming back to is we wouldn't tolerate this with our street network. And that's part of the the, frustrating, aspect of this is that our governments are not considering these things to be vital. Mobility networks. And they should I mean, in the Netherlands, it would most definitely. I mean, if if it gets washed out in a storm, it's going to get fixed just as quickly as any other mobility network.

00:51:45:20 - 00:52:16:00
John Simmerman
In Boulder, Colorado, where I lived, for a decade, the cycle paths and the in the walkway was, you know, the public, multi-use paths were always, snow plowed first before the street network. I mean, there's because they take it seriously that this is a mobility network. This is how kids and the elderly and anybody else, can choose to get to school, get to work, get to their meaningful destinations.

00:52:16:02 - 00:52:45:00
John Simmerman
Earlier we mentioned commute trips. And, you know, the whole world of what is a commute trip is completely changed when we look at the fact that, the nature of work is has changed so much, especially after the pandemic. We've now see, you know, significant percentages of people working from home. So their most, you know, frequent trips might be utilitarian trips, you know, to the grocery store and to other, other types of things.

00:52:45:02 - 00:53:08:21
John Simmerman
And so we see huge percentages of, you know, 30, 40, 50% of journeys being inherently bikeable distances. If only there were safe and inviting all ages and abilities and networks to be able to do that. And your book I want to give you huge kudos on this is I've I've listened to it twice now and I have. Yeah.

00:53:08:21 - 00:53:11:07
John Simmerman
No, I listen to it. Do I listen.

00:53:11:07 - 00:53:12:22
Laura Laker
To of my choice.

00:53:12:25 - 00:53:44:07
John Simmerman
No no, no, it's quite delightful. And I have to say that the book itself is I think it's brilliantly written, and I feel like it's not just for Brits. I feel like the stories that you're talking about in here and active mobility and the challenges are universal. So I want to really encourage everybody, you know, pick up the book or if you like, listening, to, to books.

00:53:44:07 - 00:54:09:21
John Simmerman
The audible version is absolutely delightful with Flora's voice. And I think you were really speaking to, a global audience, and you didn't really probably necessarily realize it. You know, I'm looking at, you know, the the blurb here from Chris Boardman and in you talk, you know, with him, there's an entire chapter talking about his experience as a former Olympian.

00:54:09:24 - 00:54:42:00
John Simmerman
But now somebody who, you know, is really getting it. He understands that this needs to be for all ages and abilities. And it's not about the athletes and the universal messages that you are talking about there of advocating and how cities need to be working. Talk a little bit about Chris and, that aspect of this, because I think it was it was pretty brilliant that chapter in how he just kind of cut right to it, of what we need to be able to do.

00:54:42:00 - 00:55:04:02
John Simmerman
And you can also introduce, yeah, maybe, maybe you can maybe you can introduce, you know, who Chris Boardman is now. Because maybe some people remember him as a, as a racer, as a, you know, in winning a stage in the tour de France and former Olympian, but he's been up to a lot of different things recently.

00:55:04:05 - 00:55:05:23
Laura Laker
Yeah. He has. And, he's a.

00:55:05:25 - 00:55:34:10
Laura Laker
He does this really well. You know, he cuts, he kind of cuts through a lot of the waffle and really kind of boils it down to an essential message, which, you know, is, is obviously quite a skill, but he's good at that communication piece. And yeah, he's always talked about since he moved away from the cycle sport and British Cycling, the UK cycling body, you know, does some advocacy work and that's him on the left and in the middle.

00:55:34:10 - 00:55:55:25
Laura Laker
That's, Louise Hague, the former secretary of State for transport, and that's me on the right. It was a bit warmer then, and, yeah. So he, he really has gotten that message of, you know, it needs to be the easiest thing. And actually, it's not about bikes necessarily. It's about kind of giving people this choice and it's about delivering health.

00:55:55:25 - 00:56:14:08
Laura Laker
And this government, you know, the UK is suffering from quite poor health at the moment. And part of it is due to inactivity. And, you know, I know because I have a health background, I studied nutrition at university and I realized that if you can get people, you know, walking and cycling in their daily lives and it doesn't, it's not something extra.

00:56:14:08 - 00:56:32:07
Laura Laker
It's not like another thing that someone has to remember to do in their day on top of, you know, on top of, you know, managing, you know, family and work and all of the commitments that we have in life that, you know, that's that's a great way of getting people to helping people to do something healthy. And this is something that Chris has really bought into.

00:56:32:07 - 00:56:54:07
Laura Laker
And as it's a priority of government, is something that he's really underlining. Because, you know, when we talk about benefits of, delivering cycle routes and helping people to cycle, and another piece of it is you know, enabling people, it's like kind of training, building confidence, you know, groups, social groups to get people to, you know, to kind of see cycling as something that's for them.

00:56:54:07 - 00:57:26:08
Laura Laker
And one of the great benefits is the kind of the health improvements that it that it brings about mental and physical, because we know that getting outside regularly, you know, boosts your wellbeing so many different ways. And so yeah, Chris is fantastic. And he went from, you know, being an advocate for British Cycling after he, you know, hung up his Lycra and helmet, to then getting a job, delivering Manchester Greater Manchester's walking and cycling network and then being transport commissioner for Greater Manchester.

00:57:26:11 - 00:57:43:25
Laura Laker
And then he got the national job. And I remember years ago when he was British Cycling, people would joke about how not joke. Actually they were deadly serious because he is he is very good at this, this kind of stuff. You know how we needed him as a national commissioner. He would joke about looking at down issues, and it's not kind of a tactic.

00:57:43:29 - 00:57:47:27
Laura Laker
It's a kind of a job that he wanted. And he's been open about this. He, you know, he's.

00:57:47:29 - 00:57:48:10
Laura Laker
He's.

00:57:48:17 - 00:58:14:07
Laura Laker
Done pretty well in life. But he sees it as a mission. I think, like a lot of people do. You've become a bit of an evangelist once you see the benefits of of this stuff for yourself, you you can kind of extrapolate that, you know, when it's about helping people. I think for him. And, and so he, he called it when I, when I spoke to him, we went for a bike ride along the Wirral, which is this beautiful river up in Cheshire, near Chester, outside Chester.

00:58:14:10 - 00:58:34:24
Laura Laker
He said, you know, it's a good use of life to, to do this, to do this work and to try to enable people to, you know, to travel in a healthy way to enjoy the outdoors, you know, boost their health and wellbeing. And it's great for businesses and, and that's, that's one of the wonderful things. And it's something that he and I share in common is, you know, it's it's just it's it's so many positives to this thing.

00:58:34:24 - 00:58:52:19
Laura Laker
It's it's hard really hard to argue against it. But it's about, you know, you can beat people over the head with the facts all day long. But ultimately what drives us is narrative. And I think that's something, you know, I tried to do in the book, and this is something that he's doing increasingly is talking about you know, how life changing this can be.

00:58:52:19 - 00:59:17:12
Laura Laker
And he talks about his personal experience living up in the Wirral, which is just near Liverpool, and being able to cycle to the nearest train station when he was working in Manchester and then taking the train into Manchester. And that saved him thousands of miles of driving every year. Because, you know, if that off road path hadn't been there that he was using, he wouldn't have gone on the road with drivers because, you know, he doesn't actually like cycling in traffic, which is a normal response.

00:59:17:12 - 00:59:37:24
Laura Laker
I mean, it's it's dangerous. People aren't very good at driving around cyclists. You know, the roads are overcrowded in the UK. They're narrow. And you're really made to feel like this is not your space and, you know, there's a chance of getting hurt. So yeah, he talks about how empowering these little, you know, little paths can be, you know, to take your family fairly short.

00:59:37:24 - 00:59:55:13
Laura Laker
I think it was sort of six, seven miles in his case to this train station. And, you know, if you extrapolate that the carbon emissions that that could help us cut as a nation, you know, everyone's talking about that's really important. We've seen we've all seen extreme weather in the last few years. It's getting worse. And, you know, improving our house as a nation.

00:59:55:16 - 01:00:22:09
Laura Laker
And I know and he knows that, you know, this sort of knitting this into our everyday lives is is absolutely transformative. So, yeah. And he. Yeah, he's he's a great spokesperson then. Yeah. He's now he's now national commissioner, delivering, routes, allocating funding to different local councils. He's really about building up expertise within local authorities because, you know, they've been up and down the funding.

01:00:22:09 - 01:00:41:07
Laura Laker
A lot of them don't have the staff or the expertise. They don't know what they're delivering or how or why or where. So they're very much his organization within the Department for transport, within the government is all about, you know, helping to increase that capability of local authorities, get them to deliver what they can deliver. And then try and sort of improve that over time.

01:00:41:07 - 01:00:56:08
Laura Laker
And, you know, the last government was quite hostile to cycling, but I think they kind of plugged away quietly. This government's a lot more switched on to it, a lot more on board because of the health benefits, for one thing. But, you know, the culture war stuff hopefully is gone. And that's one of the things Louise Hague said when I interviewed her.

01:00:56:08 - 01:01:09:29
Laura Laker
Yeah. So it's very it's very hopeful. I think he's got a team of really good people. I've met a few, everyone I seem to meet from, from his, his department seems to be, you know, excellent. So I think the. Yeah, he's he's doing a great job whether he likes it or not.

01:01:10:01 - 01:01:12:21
Laura Laker
Yeah, I'm sure he gets a sense of,

01:01:12:23 - 01:01:19:21
Laura Laker
Satisfaction from it, though, because, you know, is this kind of stuff changes people's lives in so many different ways.

01:01:19:24 - 01:01:20:22
Laura Laker
Yeah.

01:01:20:24 - 01:01:50:08
John Simmerman
Yeah. Fantastic. Again, we'll we'll sort of, step aside here and Lee and close this out with your book and reframe once again. Again. Laura Laker Potholes and pavements a bumpy ride on Britain's National Cycle Network. Again. It's fabulous. Fabulous read. Congratulations on getting this out. It took you a while to get this out, right? I mean, this was a multi year sort of experience correct.

01:01:50:11 - 01:01:51:24
Laura Laker
Yeah. It kind of was.

01:01:51:24 - 01:02:11:22
Laura Laker
Yeah. I mean I had the initial idea and this road trip was 2017. But then it just remained half, half an idea. And then 20 yet to 2020, late 2021. I discussed it with this editor at Bloomsbury, 2020 2nd January. I got the book deal. So actually I had submitted it by, the end of the following year.

01:02:11:22 - 01:02:17:15
Laura Laker
And in 2023, we did the final edits, and then it came out in May 24th. So, I mean, it wasn't that long. It was.

01:02:17:15 - 01:02:29:03
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And it was a good solid year of of being, you know, writing. And you didn't you didn't make it to Ireland and I know that you wanted to didn't. Yeah. Yeah.

01:02:29:05 - 01:02:30:10
Laura Laker
You kind of read that whole time.

01:02:30:10 - 01:02:30:21
John Simmerman
Yeah.

01:02:30:21 - 01:02:40:02
Laura Laker
Yeah, yeah. I was having to do other work at the same time because, writing books is not, it is not, very financially. Well, it's not it doesn't make you loads of money.

01:02:40:07 - 01:02:50:12
Laura Laker
So I had to keep working as a freelancer. I had to keep doing other jobs in between. So I'd be cycling and then, you know, getting my deadlines in and then right away and then. Yeah. So. Yeah.

01:02:50:13 - 01:03:10:17
John Simmerman
And going and navigating to the top of your website here. Yes. You, you are for hire for other types of things as well. You are a journalist and you do speaking as well. So, folks, reach out to Laura, and or thank you so much. This has been an absolute joy and pleasure having you on the Active Sounds podcast.

01:03:10:17 - 01:03:11:04
John Simmerman
Thank you so.

01:03:11:04 - 01:03:13:24
Laura Laker
Much. Thank you Tony, it's been great to be here.

01:03:13:26 - 01:03:28:16
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Laura Laker. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honor to have you subscribed to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

01:03:28:21 - 01:03:50:24
John Simmerman
And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. It's easy to do. Just navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the page, and there's several different options, including becoming a Patreon supporter. Patrons do get early and ad free access to all my video content, so there is a nice little added benefit there.

01:03:50:24 - 01:04:11:07
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers and again sending a huge thank you out to all my Active Towns ambassadors supporting the channel on Patreon. Buy me a coffee YouTube. Super! Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit.

01:04:11:11 - 01:04:15:22
John Simmerman
Every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated. Thank you all so much.