Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:21:01
Graham Zimmerman
Understanding what parts of the language we use around certain subjects are inflammatory, and removing those things or navigating around them, and instead focusing on the things that bring us together. And if we do that, and when we do that, we can do so much work towards creating a shared pathway towards the world that we want to live in.

00:00:21:03 - 00:00:52:14
Graham Zimmerman
And that's something that that's like that. That kind of work. Ultimately, it's me really fired up. And we're here talking about active towns. A lot of those active towns are in like are like blue dots in red counties or are quite purple. And when I think about those places, there are these amazing laboratories for where we can work on those communication skills that allow for us to bring people in and have those conversations that can really act as an analog for our entire country and our entire world.

00:00:52:20 - 00:01:12:11
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Graham Zimmerman. with the Protect Our Winters organization. We're going to be talking a little bit about the campaigns that Paul is involved with. so let's get right to it with Graham.

00:01:12:13 - 00:01:16:20
John Simmerman
Graham Zimmerman, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns Podcast.

00:01:16:23 - 00:01:19:06
Graham Zimmerman
Hey, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

00:01:19:08 - 00:01:25:17
John Simmerman
Graham, I love, giving my guests an opportunity to just say a few words about themselves. So who the heck is Graham?

00:01:25:19 - 00:01:52:27
Graham Zimmerman
It's a great question. so my name is Graham Zimmerman. I live in bend, Oregon, and I think first and foremost, I am a mountain climber. That's what I've done for my entire career. And I've been I've been a professional alpinist or mountain climber since about 20 to about 2008. And it's really been it's really been the thread that's woven its way through my life now to speak to where I'm at now.

00:01:52:27 - 00:02:18:03
Graham Zimmerman
I've been pulled into the climate advocacy space in a really big way, particularly through an organization called Protect Our Winters. And so my work these days really rides that line between going to the big mountains of the world to try to do things that have never been done before and tell stories to our communities about that, and then leveraging those stories in order to drive the climate action that we need in order to be better stewards of the planet that we live on.

00:02:18:06 - 00:02:40:28
Graham Zimmerman
And at this point, I'm actually the director of athlete alliances at Protect Our Winners, meaning that my role is not only to use my own voice in order to drive that change, but also to empower other athletes and other leaders in the outdoor rec community and outdoor rec economy in order to leverage their platforms and and in order to drive the change that we need.

00:02:40:28 - 00:03:05:02
Graham Zimmerman
And it's it's been it's been a really remarkable and powerful journey because for me, you know, these mountains are these places where I've learned so much of, like, how I get at the world and to subsequently be able to apply that towards the biggest issue of our time. Climate is really powerful, and it's something I'm really delighted to be here to chat with you about today.

00:03:05:05 - 00:03:34:22
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And I've got the the website up here on screen right now. And again, that is Protect our winters.org. Is the website there. I'd love to actually play just a little video that, you know, kind of talks about, you know, a little bit of your story. And I believe the name of it is, an imperfect advocate is it's a trailer, to that, does that make sense for, you know, for us to play that as a little introduction?

00:03:34:24 - 00:03:35:26
Graham Zimmerman
That sounds great.

00:03:35:28 - 00:03:41:08
John Simmerman
All right. Fantastic. Let's let's keep this up and press play.

00:03:41:10 - 00:04:01:26
Graham Zimmerman
What do I do for a living? It really all starts in climbing in New Zealand. Alaska. The Pakistani character, a lot of spending time on airplanes. This job. To be honest, I was so focused on climbing that I didn't really give a damn about anything else. But at some point, I felt like there was kind of a reckoning.

00:04:01:29 - 00:04:32:03
Graham Zimmerman
This is up in Canada in 2009. This is eight years later. It's becoming harder and harder to ignore changes that we see in alpine landscapes caused by human carbon emissions. But, you know, who am I to be an advocate for climate change? And so what does it mean to be an imperfect advocate?

00:04:32:06 - 00:04:40:05
John Simmerman
So talk a little bit about that journey. was was there an epiphany or did it sort of just sort of creep in on in you?

00:04:40:07 - 00:05:02:07
Graham Zimmerman
It's a great question. I'll share the I think that people oftentimes expect that there was a moment or I was standing in the mountains and was looking out and realized, oh my gosh, climate change is real, and it's us. And for me, that's it's really not the case because I actually have an academic background in glacial hydrology. So how water flows over, through and under glaciers.

00:05:02:07 - 00:05:26:16
Graham Zimmerman
And then I subsequently spent the last 20 years in the big mountains, the world. And when we talk about areas that are most impacted by climate, the high altitude and high latitude parts of our planet are the areas that are really seeing the most dramatic impacts, so that there's things that I learned while a university about climate, about how it's impacting glaciers, about how it's impacting winters, how it's impacting water scarcity.

00:05:26:21 - 00:05:52:04
Graham Zimmerman
Those things have been reinforced time and time again. Now, the thing that is the the really kind of like the moment of reckoning for me was in about 2015, I was at a film festival and I was I was running a film production company at the time, kind of like adjacent to my work as an athlete and was generally pretty concerned about climate.

00:05:52:06 - 00:06:14:20
Graham Zimmerman
But I felt that because of my personal carbon footprint and because of the profession that I was taking on, that I didn't have the ability to advocate on climate, I felt that my personal carbon footprint really created this level of hypocrisy that made it so that I didn't have or deserve a voice in that space. And I'm sitting at this film festival.

00:06:14:20 - 00:06:35:24
Graham Zimmerman
We've just launched a film about about climbing and somebody from Protect Your is one of the leadership team members was there, and I end up drinking a cocktail with them. I said, tell me, you know, you should you should really be stepping into this work. You should really be taking on climate advocacy, you know, like, oh, do you know how much time I spend on planes?

00:06:35:24 - 00:07:05:06
Graham Zimmerman
Like, no way. and we're like, listen, actually, that makes you the perfect person. And, and I feel really fortunate that I trusted them and that and subsequently kind of started this journey of advocacy and, and ultimately it's been really powerful. And I think that's for a couple of reasons. One, I've been brought into this idea that systemic change versus personal change is something we really need to consider.

00:07:05:06 - 00:07:34:13
Graham Zimmerman
And we've been sold the idea that personal change is how we deal with climate and in terms of who we have been sold. That idea by, it turns out it's actually by the fossil fuel companies who would love for us all to be picking at each other and spending all of our time and energy focused on, you know, our personal carbon footprints, rather than the giant carbon footprints of corporations and the carbon footprints that really, result in profits for those big oil and gas companies.

00:07:34:15 - 00:08:04:21
Graham Zimmerman
if you want to dig into the finer points of that, I'd highly recommend a podcast by Amy investor belt called drilled, which is an investigative piece into like the finer points of that PR campaign and how successful that has been. And, and then if we pivot towards systemic change, changing the systems in which we live in order to drive the climate action that we need, it brings us into this space where we not only can bring in more people, because it turns out that we all have carbon footprints.

00:08:04:27 - 00:08:35:17
Graham Zimmerman
It turns out that living in modern society means that we burn fossil fuels in order to use the electricity that we need and that, and when it comes to that perceived hypocrisy created by the concept of a carbon footprint and by this concept of personal change, it puts us into this position where we feel totally disabled from taking on the activism and advocacy and the action needed in order to actually deal with this program and deal with this problem.

00:08:35:17 - 00:08:59:07
Graham Zimmerman
And and we start looking at these systemic solutions. They they turn into ways that we can continue to progress as a society. We can move forwards, not backwards. We can continue to progress as communities. I mean, we're talking about active towns here. We can continue to live in these towns and do these things that we love, and we can do them in ways that are in better balance with the planet around us.

00:08:59:07 - 00:09:21:10
Graham Zimmerman
Now, I think another thing that is really important to bring up is that when we talk about personal change as a solution to the climate crisis, it the solutions we talk about are things like buying an EV, buying solar panels, you know, working remotely off of, you know, a home that is running off of clean energy that we generate ourselves.

00:09:21:16 - 00:09:39:06
Graham Zimmerman
And these are things that are like really expensive EVs cost a lot of money. Solar panels cost a lot of money. Solar hot water heaters cost a lot of money. Heat pumps cost a lot of money. And if you can't afford those things, which is the case for most Americans, because your average American has like $1,000 in their bank account.

00:09:39:12 - 00:10:02:18
Graham Zimmerman
And certainly for most global citizens, then your only other option is like give up all of these crucial components to living in the modern world in order to try to fix this problem. Whereas if we look at changing the systems in which we live, if we look at changing how we generate electricity, if we look at how we transport ourselves and our goods, we look at government driven solutions and policy driven solutions for these things.

00:10:02:24 - 00:10:25:21
Graham Zimmerman
Then we're in this space where we can bring everybody along on that clean energy journey, regardless of how much money is in their bank account. And that's like that for me, is the ultimate crux of why systemic solutions to climate are so crucial, because they really start to bring everybody along and they have they don't have the massive social equity problem that the personal argument does.

00:10:25:27 - 00:10:53:09
Graham Zimmerman
Now, if you if you have enough money in order to afford buying an EV or putting solar panels on your home, great. You should do that, right? But you should also look at systemic solutions, ways that you can be leveraging your vote, your voice, your platform, the organizations and companies in which you work and work and exist, and look at different ways within those you can operate levers to drive that systemic change that we need.

00:10:53:11 - 00:11:25:00
John Simmerman
Yeah, I'm really glad that you brought that up, too. I recently had, the author of, the book dark PR Grant Innis on and his entire book, really focuses in on of that issue of it really is a PR campaign, to sort of greenwash things. And one of the case studies in that book is, in fact, the personal carbon footprint story and how BP came up with that.

00:11:25:00 - 00:11:49:28
John Simmerman
And it was totally a PR campaign. and so you're absolutely right. And part of the biggest challenge of systemic change is the fact that we have sort of, and this isn't just in the United States. This is globally. We have systems that are in place right now where there's so much corporate influence on policy that gets, you know, put forth and policy that's in place.

00:11:50:00 - 00:12:11:13
John Simmerman
And I get the sense that that part of the work that you have been doing is very much policy oriented. Because when I look at some of the the images that you all have sent to me, I'm getting the sense that you're digging deep into trying to get to the root of part of our challenge to systemic change, and that is policy.

00:12:11:15 - 00:12:39:29
Graham Zimmerman
Yeah, I love to kind of speak to like the two like biggest bodies of work. The POW, the organization that I work with now is taking on, and one of them is very much the political will space, how we can drive those policies that guide us towards that systemic change that we need. And all these images we're looking at right here of being in DC, being at the United Nations, these are actively lobbying for that work.

00:12:40:04 - 00:13:09:18
Graham Zimmerman
Now, we live in a representative democracy, and that means that a really crucial part of driving policy is bringing people along. Right. And so there's like there is this political will component, and then there is the social will component. And it pow by bringing in leaders from the outdoor economy, particularly athletes, the folks that we're looking at that I'm here in DC with that I'm with the United Nations with this is Kate Courtney.

00:13:09:18 - 00:13:38:06
Graham Zimmerman
She's one of the top mountain bike racers in the country. We have Jeremy Jones was there earlier. We have Bee Kim, who's one of the top snowboarders in the country right now, Sasha de Julian, who is one of the top rock climbers in the country, people who have this massive social influence. So by bringing these folks into the conversation and empowering them to leverage their platforms in order to drive systemic solutions and communicate on climate, we're taking on two bodies of work that are both super important.

00:13:38:06 - 00:14:17:22
Graham Zimmerman
One is creating pressure on policymakers, on lawmakers in order to enact that systemic change. But also, there's this grass top's root, organ, a grass top's organizing component, where they, as community leaders, are also bringing the community along and really making it so that what it means to be a member of the outdoor rec economy in the United States, a group that, we refer to as the outdoor state, this the state of people in the United States who recreate outside and define themselves by that recreation, which I think we actually have an updated number on that.

00:14:17:24 - 00:14:41:18
Graham Zimmerman
I think it's over 160 million people in this country. It is a lot of folks. And how do we make it so that those people see their time in the outdoors as not only a crucial time to go, get away, to go learn about themselves, to get away from push notifications and get away from their inbox, but also to be gathering stories and gathering and power in order to be driving this change that we need.

00:14:41:18 - 00:15:18:09
Graham Zimmerman
How do we give them a voice in DC so that folks in DC know that we prioritize these landscapes, that we live on, we prioritize communities that are that we live in and that are adjacent to us. And we are very worried about climate, and we see systemic solutions as the way forward. And we're demanding that change. And so it's like pretty it's pretty epic to show up in DC with these people who really carry weight in terms of their social influence, converting that into political influence, and then having those folks go back to their communities and say, hey, look, here's what I'm doing, and let's think about how you can do that work, too.

00:15:18:13 - 00:15:40:16
Graham Zimmerman
And that is ultimately what power is doing is empowering the outdoor state, empowering folks who engage with outdoor recreation in the United States in order to use their voice by empowering the leaders who they really look up to, these athletes, these business leaders, as well as scientists and creatives. And it's it's pretty badass. And it's it's working really well.

00:15:40:16 - 00:16:12:13
Graham Zimmerman
And it's something that they brought me into, as one of those athletes, and I have loved engaging with my community and really encouraging them to look on for ways to take action and and to be able to bring others into the fold on that other pro athletes around our outdoor economy is it's really it's it's really been wonderful is there's like this component of like, not only are we doing fabulous work that is really pushing the needle and having impact and bringing people in and getting people to think about these problems in different ways.

00:16:12:16 - 00:16:43:00
Graham Zimmerman
But but also, we're taking this group of folks who have these amazing, relationships of these landscapes and are also like people who like, index really highly on, like, being courageous, being strategic, being like very, very, very well trained and prepared. Like if you're going to go win an Olympic gold medal or if you're going to show up and win like the World Championships and biking like, you got to be courageous, you got to be really dedicated.

00:16:43:02 - 00:17:13:11
Graham Zimmerman
And you have to be like, willing to apply energy towards huge problems with outcomes that are not guaranteed. And that's like basically the same building blocks we need for taking on the climate crisis. So we have these like these folks who have traditionally been leveraged to like sell jackets and shoes and and now we have them doing that because that's their day job is what we do as athletes, but also driving the systemic solutions that we need in order to to take on climate change and have a better relationship with our Mother Earth.

00:17:13:11 - 00:17:16:13
Graham Zimmerman
And that, like, that's something that gets me really fired up.

00:17:16:15 - 00:17:36:27
John Simmerman
Yeah. You know, and as somebody who, used to work, on the ski patrol, up in the mountains and very much a part of, of the mountains and of the snow, and, you know, when I lived in, in Colorado, in Boulder, you know, spent most of my weekends up in the mountains, skiing.

00:17:36:27 - 00:17:55:08
John Simmerman
I wasn't patrolling in Colorado when I was on the patrol. I was in California. But, I know what we mean by protect our winters. you alluded to it a little bit. talk a little bit about that. The origins of the name, the origins of the organization, protect our.

00:17:55:08 - 00:18:16:29
Graham Zimmerman
Winters. I would love to. so it is interesting because, I mean, here I am, an alpine climber. Most of the big things that I do, which like most of my most of my climbing, is been focused in the Alaska Range and in the Pakistani Karakoram. and a lot of that climbing is during the, during the summer or right, at least not during the winter.

00:18:16:29 - 00:18:47:08
Graham Zimmerman
We do do winter sense sometimes, but they tend to be pretty miserable. And and to go kind of like back into the history of the organization. Protect Our Winters was founded by Jeremy Jones in 2007, and it was focused on giving winter sports athletes the ability to advocate for the season on which they relied, and as the organization has grown, it has expanded to encompass far more than just winter sports.

00:18:47:08 - 00:19:14:27
Graham Zimmerman
In fact, the Paris Olympics here. And a few weeks we're going to have a bunch of athletes there representing Powell and representing their work and climate action. And, and that's really exciting. And that's like this new kind of phase that we've been moving into for the last 6 or 7 years where we realized that, like, we all need winter, winter without winter, without snowpack, we've run into water scarcity.

00:19:14:29 - 00:19:41:13
Graham Zimmerman
We run into without winter, we have hotter summers. That results in, you know, challenges for community health that results in wildfires, water scarcity that I mentioned earlier. Like we all we all need winter. Also the, you know, the the brand we built around Powell, around protect our winters is really strong. And you know, it's there was I feel like an inflection point to like, oh, maybe we make it something that includes all seasons.

00:19:41:13 - 00:19:56:29
Graham Zimmerman
It's like, you know what? We all need winter. We all need snow. We all need these resources. We need we all need to protect our winter. Even if we are athletes who are focused on sports that maybe we participate in primarily during the summer. Yeah.

00:19:57:05 - 00:20:25:16
John Simmerman
You know, I will I want to do it to make sure that that I brought that up, just because I know my audience is is fairly diversified. We're pretty oriented towards active mobility and and biking for, for active mobility and many folks, tuning in from the Netherlands and throughout Central Europe. So I wanted to make sure that we emphasize that, you know, that that's a big part of of what, power is all about.

00:20:25:19 - 00:21:03:19
John Simmerman
you had mentioned earlier the campaign. So let's pop on over to the, the, the POW, campaigns. and you talked a little bit about the two main strategies of trying to deal with that upper level stuff, you know, looking on the policies, but then also trying to engage communities, that grassroots movement side of things, which is incredibly important because if you don't also bring the community along, then the politicians and the and the folks who are in charge of policy change, their political will will be strained and challenged.

00:21:03:19 - 00:21:20:16
John Simmerman
If if they're hearing from their electorate that, what are you doing? We're not supportive of this. So you need both. You need strong leadership and and a strong movement of the community to understand why this is so important. Talk a little bit about the, the campaigns here.

00:21:20:18 - 00:21:45:28
Graham Zimmerman
Yeah. I'll actually go back to some of you said a moment ago, about biking, knowing these speak to bikers a lot, that's really exciting. Yeah. And we, we actually launched a full scale bike program a few years ago. Run by world champion mountain biker Barry Wicks. And if you look at this photo that we're looking at right now, yeah, we've got Matt Lehto on the left who is, like a champion triathlete, like Ironman.

00:21:45:28 - 00:22:06:08
Graham Zimmerman
And we've got Sarah Sturm there to his right. who is a top, gravel racer. And we've got, we've got a bunch of folks in the mountain biking gravel and some in the cycling and general cycling space as well, who are like really digging into this program. And I'll share the launch of the thing.

00:22:06:10 - 00:22:10:00
John Simmerman
And isn't Matt isn't he also a Ben guy?

00:22:10:03 - 00:22:11:02
Graham Zimmerman
He is. And.

00:22:11:02 - 00:22:12:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah.

00:22:12:12 - 00:22:13:29
Graham Zimmerman
You've done your homework.

00:22:14:01 - 00:22:30:02
John Simmerman
Oh, no, I know I know, I know Matt and and his brother Chris, from my time. Yeah. So I used to live in Kona, Hawaii. So they used to come out, for the Ironman, Hawaii, you know, world championships. And so I remember the little brothers. Yeah.

00:22:30:05 - 00:22:50:03
Graham Zimmerman
Oh, that's super cool, I love that. Well, then and then to speak to campaigns on the highest level, something that I think is worth sharing before we kind of get into, like, the specifics is, you know, in the United States right now, we're talking a lot about how our democracy is under stress. We're talking about, oh my gosh, like what's going on in our democracy.

00:22:50:03 - 00:23:27:18
Graham Zimmerman
And something that, colleague shared with me a couple of years ago that that I go back to all the time is the way that you de-stress. A democracy is you get the people to engage. And that baseline engagement of bringing this massive group of people who represent outdoor recreation in this country and giving them a collective goal to help them move towards, you know, society that has a better relationship with the planet Earth that's like that is that is a really epic way for us to get people involved and subsequently de-stress this democracy that we live in.

00:23:27:18 - 00:23:50:26
Graham Zimmerman
And I think that's, I think that's something that we can really use as an analog across the globe and then to speak specifically to the campaigns work we're doing, because I think that, you know, when we we talk about these like, big social change movements, they can feel kind of big and ethereal, getting people to take climate action, getting people to see themselves in the climate movement, getting people to lean in.

00:23:50:26 - 00:24:13:26
Graham Zimmerman
And that's like super important. I think. I think that that work cannot be undervalued. But I do think that for an organization like POW, it is really helpful and really fruitful for us to have some like really specific campaigns work that we're taking on. And the first one, actually you can scroll down a little bit. I think it's the first one of the list here is the Energizing Our Communities Act.

00:24:14:02 - 00:24:39:26
Graham Zimmerman
And this is this is a pretty fun one because POW has stepped in to actually write legislation. we went to DC and worked with a bunch of lawmakers, worked with a bunch of energy folks to understand, like a particular place where POW could step in with this particular DNA of an organization and rights and motivation that can have particular impacts.

00:24:39:29 - 00:25:08:11
Graham Zimmerman
And to do something that, like nobody else can do. And the thing that we stepped into is actually grid transmission, which gets very wonky, very fast. And I won't get into the finer points, but the short of it is that if we're going to decarbonize, it's going to require taking all of these things that we currently use fossil fuels for and pivoting those towards electricity, and then subsequently cleaning up where that electricity comes from.

00:25:08:14 - 00:25:25:04
Graham Zimmerman
And within that process we have way more electricity being used. If you think about all the cars that are on the roads and roads in the United States, there is a ton of power that is coming from fossil fuels. And if that's all going to pivot towards electricity, then we need to be able to transport a lot more electricity.

00:25:25:04 - 00:25:57:28
Graham Zimmerman
So we need to update our grid as part of that process. And that's a that's something that was kind of under indexed in terms of like how these different parts of the solution were moving forward, how saw that power stepped into the transmission space and started taking a look at where we could be particularly useful and bring kind of our special sauce to the conversation and where we found that is in community, because we have all of these communities that are going to end up housing these infrastructure projects that are required in order for us to make the clean energy transition.

00:25:58:01 - 00:26:28:20
Graham Zimmerman
And a lot of those communities are not seeing necessarily the benefits from that clean energy transmission. So we are going into those communities and making sure that through the Energizing our Communities act, they are seeing tangible benefits in the form of non grant based money that shows up for them to work on the infrastructure within their city, things like parks, things like schools, things like outdoor rec opportunities.

00:26:28:22 - 00:26:49:17
Graham Zimmerman
And it's really exciting because the thing that we need within the clean energy conversation is we need for everybody to win. That's how we all move forward together. And this is this, like really tangible way that communities that are housing, this infrastructure that we badly need but win from this clean energy transmission. And it's something I feel really, really good about.

00:26:49:19 - 00:27:15:18
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that, that I talked about a lot here on the Active Towns Channel is that we understand that we need to see an electrification of our fleet, of our transportation fleet. But we also understand that we also need to decrease the fleet size in the sense that we need to yes, we need to electrify those vehicles.

00:27:15:18 - 00:28:03:02
John Simmerman
But as you had mentioned, those are not cheap. The process is not cheap. The mining necessary to be able to to electrify the fleet is not cheap. And it's also devastating to the environment. so we also know that really what we need to do is to decrease the number of vehicle miles traveled and decrease the and make it basically more possible or feasible for us to have what you see right there in focus, a green transportation option, and really honing in on the fact that since we know that 40% of our, our, you know, greenhouse gases are coming from the transportation sector, being able to create communities just like, you know, bend is

00:28:03:02 - 00:28:35:19
John Simmerman
doing a fairly decent job at doing this. And so is Austin, where I live of trying to encourage more people to choose active mobility options, jump on the bike, you know, walk, use transit whenever possible. And it's one of the things that I think is incredibly important to understand that, about anywhere between 40 to 52% of our trips, when we look at trips, they're right around the 3 to 5 mile mark, inherently a bikeable distance.

00:28:35:22 - 00:29:01:07
John Simmerman
talk a little bit about that because you're you're sort of rubbing shoulders with, a lot of athletes. You mentioned mountain biking. You mentioned Matt Legato and some of these folks, are they sort of getting that too, or are they connecting the dots and going, oh man, this is part of the solution. And and can be part of the message that Powell is putting out there because as you mentioned, it's a two pronged thing.

00:29:01:07 - 00:29:37:29
John Simmerman
It's not only the the policy stuff at the high level, but it's also an awareness at the community level that, hey, this is some of the stuff that we need, to be able to have true change. And part of it is, is not only, as you mentioned earlier, part of it is the individual actions, but also part of it is the policy change that makes it possible for us to, to have and make it more feasible for, you know, people all ages and abilities to be able to get to meaningful destinations under their own power, which is the cheapest and also the best for the environment.

00:29:38:01 - 00:30:00:15
Graham Zimmerman
Yeah. I mean, you bring up a really crucial point that and the bigger the point of light transportation is of course crucial. and short distance transportation, particularly without a lot of equipment or goods, is is a crucial part of the conversation. And the thing that I'd love to do is kind of take a moment to like, zoom out.

00:30:00:18 - 00:30:27:19
Graham Zimmerman
And the thing about the climate conversation, and honestly, the thing that makes it so dang hard sometimes, is it is so multifaceted, it is so complicated, and it touches just about every part of everything that we do. And and I think that's something that a lot of folks get kind of stuck on is this overwhelming sense of, where do I begin?

00:30:27:25 - 00:30:55:28
Graham Zimmerman
And what is the best work that I can do? And and then subsequently we get people arguing about, oh, well, where should we start? And when it comes to clean energy, when it comes to decarbonization, when it comes to reimagining how we use power in our lives in a more efficient way, it's something that like, we we need all of it and we need it now.

00:30:56:00 - 00:31:19:18
Graham Zimmerman
We don't need to choose nuclear or solar or wind. We need to move forward with all of them as fast as we can in terms of how we make our cities more efficient, how we make them more bikeable. If that's something that you have levers in your life that you can work with, that's like something that you should take on.

00:31:19:20 - 00:31:51:05
Graham Zimmerman
I had this awesome conversation with a friend who works at one of, like, the big, bigger tech companies. And, and he specifically works on their data based data stack, like the code that is leveraged within their data base, which is not somewhere where you like, think about climate action taking place. This is like deep tech nerd. and he saw this opportunity to create more efficiency in the code they were using in order to run their database systems.

00:31:51:08 - 00:32:30:08
Graham Zimmerman
And by like shortening that code base, they were subsequently able to use half the electricity, and they were able to able to save that major organization millions and millions of dollars and use a lot less power. And it was like this major climate win and a major, company win. And so the thing that the thing that I really encourage about something, there's like a big part of this work for us is like power has these things like the, like that transmission bill that we were just talking about, where we see those as some of the best work that power can take on.

00:32:30:08 - 00:33:03:26
Graham Zimmerman
And we like drive that work. We also work with our communities, work with our athletes, work with these community leaders as well as with the general community through our membership program, which is called Team Powell, to provide like, provide insight and ideas and inspiration for how each of us can drive change within our own lives. And I'll tell you what, when we talk about community, when we talk about like, the city, you know, kind of like local level of change, it is such an important and tangible part of the conversation.

00:33:04:01 - 00:33:31:27
Graham Zimmerman
When we talk about how our cities are designed and how we are encouraging people to live more carbon efficient lives, it is such an exciting part of the conversation and something that is so tangible for local communities. And if you live in a community where that's something you want to see, I super encourage you to go show up at your city Council meeting to go like, try to find who else in town is working that problem and how you can support.

00:33:31:29 - 00:33:55:23
Graham Zimmerman
And and that's like, that's a really is a really cool part of the work and the something that we really like, we take on these specific tasks about these really tangible actions like this bill, but then resource folks with the ability to drive action not only through this pathways, but through all the pathways that are available to them, because each of us need to look at our own lives and how we can elicit that change from the world around us.

00:33:55:25 - 00:34:21:27
Graham Zimmerman
And I will share that one other, like, kind of core community thing that Powell is working on that is that is like tangentially related to what you're bringing up around transportation. But we are doing a lot of work on, rural electric co-ops, which if you live in a rural area, if you live in a if you live kind of a county land outside of a major municipality, then your power and decisions around it are probably made by a co-op.

00:34:21:29 - 00:34:46:11
Graham Zimmerman
It's like like I think I like by like Square Mile, like most of the country is represented by co-ops now. Not like I think more people live in urban spaces. I don't have those exact metrics, but there are like a ton, a ton of co-ops around the country. And there they're these really small elections where, you know, five votes can determine whether or not you have a green energy friendly co-op board or not.

00:34:46:15 - 00:35:05:08
Graham Zimmerman
And we have taken the opportunity to step in on a bunch of those elections over the last few years that I should be clear through our Action Fund. That's through Pal Action Fund, this 500 and C4 that can actually do kind of more election work. But, those like the, the like we cannot like the big federal things are awesome.

00:35:05:13 - 00:35:39:29
Graham Zimmerman
They are crucial. But when we look at these movements and we look at where they truly began and where we really get to engage with that groundswell and where we get to take tangible action that like shows up in the communities around us. It is at the local level, and I super encourage people to look at the local level, look at the organizations, companies you work with as kind of like part of that lens, and look at where you can meddle with how we get at clean energy, how we create more efficiency, how we encourage people across the board to engage with that is like a really, really exciting place to do work.

00:35:40:01 - 00:36:03:01
John Simmerman
And I love that too, because you're bringing up a really good point is that, especially when it comes to engaging at the community level and educating and increasing awareness of what the challenges are when you start to get out into the more rural environments, you might just sort of write that off and say, oh yeah, we know how they're going to vote.

00:36:03:01 - 00:36:43:23
John Simmerman
And it's like, not necessarily. You need to have certain having these conversations in this dialog of, you know, what are the things that are impacting them and, you know, in trying to shape, you know, some decisions that can, you know, hopefully clean up that power generation process out there. And what I like about that too, is, you know, is having those conversations also can can then begin related to, oh, by the way, these are some other things that, you know, you know, these communities in more rural environments can be doing that can have a huge impact.

00:36:43:25 - 00:37:08:22
John Simmerman
because again, when you when you look at kind of the per capita impact on, on, on, you know, if we do look at that carbon footprint, the per capita, you know, out, impact out there, is, is through the roof because they tend to be driving a lot more and a lot farther. And so there's a lot of challenges, you know, around those areas.

00:37:08:22 - 00:37:38:22
John Simmerman
So. But what I'm trying to say, I'm not doing it very eloquently here. Is that you know, good on you guys for, you know, tackling an area and a challenge that, you know, is a little bit more difficult than necessarily leaning into, you know, the prototypical, you know, urban centers, that may be a little bit more progressive and the prototypical, resort communities and, you know, hippie towns and college towns, etc..

00:37:38:22 - 00:37:42:27
John Simmerman
So, yeah, good on you guys for, for for doing that as well.

00:37:42:29 - 00:38:09:13
Graham Zimmerman
Yeah. I'll, I'll share on that front that, you know, when we talk about folks living in rural landscapes, and we talk about conservative conservative mindsets in the United States, there is this perceived divide. And in some ways it's their people who live in it. Right. Deeply urban environment, maybe look at landscapes in a different way than folks who live in a rural environment.

00:38:09:16 - 00:38:37:14
Graham Zimmerman
But I'll tell you what, people who live in rural America and people who live in rural areas across the globe have a really deep relationship with landscapes. And when it comes to talking about climate, when it comes to talking about taking on climate action, they're there. They use different words, they use different ways to talk about these changes that are taking place.

00:38:37:16 - 00:39:05:26
Graham Zimmerman
But they're like the amount of common ground that sits between us in terms of our like, love for these landscapes, our appreciation for spending time within them, no matter how we recreate is really profound. And something that I've been working really hard on is how we can be removing the things that, like, pull us apart and leveraging the things that bring us together.

00:39:05:28 - 00:39:31:16
Graham Zimmerman
And oftentimes that's avoiding wedge issues, or that is understanding what parts of the language we use around certain subjects are inflammatory, and removing those things or navigating around them, and instead focusing on the things that bring us together and if we do that, and when we do that, we can do so much work towards creating a shared pathway towards the world that we want to live in.

00:39:31:19 - 00:40:03:00
Graham Zimmerman
And that's something that that's like that, that kind of work ultimately gets me really fired up. And we're here talking about active towns. A lot of those active towns are in, like our like blue dots and red counties or are quite purple. And when I think about those places, there are these amazing laboratories for where we can work on those communication skills that allow for us to bring people in and have those conversations that can really act as an analog for our entire country, in our entire world.

00:40:03:07 - 00:40:14:17
Graham Zimmerman
And that's something that that really brings me a lot of hope. And, it's something that those of us who live in places like bend can really can really lean into. And, it gets me really stoked.

00:40:14:19 - 00:40:49:24
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And I actually grew up on a ranch, you know, outside of, basically in the foothills, making my way up towards, Lake Tahoe. Just not far from Auburn, area. And, yeah, I totally get what you're saying. We just need to understand that. Yeah, there's probably some challenges in in doing, you know, in working out in that environment, but, being mindful of our language and being mindful of the fact that we can't have too many assumptions as to what their beliefs are.

00:40:49:27 - 00:41:17:20
John Simmerman
And at the same time, just taking time to listen and understanding. What are some of the concerns that they have guaranteed? I don't care where you're at, whether you're in Austin, Texas, or in the, you know, in the hinterlands around Austin or in bend, Oregon, or, you know, where I grew up in, in Lincoln, California. we're all being affected by global warming and climate change right now.

00:41:17:23 - 00:41:19:00
Graham Zimmerman
Oh, yeah.

00:41:19:02 - 00:41:43:02
John Simmerman
So, I mean, it's something that everyone can, can relate to at some level. Yeah. So I see here where we've been, we've been lingering here on the page of, join, join pal. And so if I click on this that brings us in to the join pal. Join the team. Talk a little bit more about what this means to join Pal.

00:41:43:04 - 00:42:06:12
Graham Zimmerman
Yeah, I'll just talk about how, like, you know, I think the powers, in the past been seen as kind of like, just pro athletes. And there are so many ways that anybody can get involved with power. The first thing I should bring up and, and, and I think this is important is that, you know, if you have the ability to donate your organization and support the work, it's crucial.

00:42:06:14 - 00:42:23:24
Graham Zimmerman
And as we look at the year that is ahead of us, I want I want to take us on the nose dive into the election talk. But it is a really big year for this work and something that we are doing a ton of work on. And, and some of that is really external. Some of that is internal.

00:42:23:24 - 00:42:35:00
Graham Zimmerman
But if you are looking for a tangible way to have an impact on the year ahead, in the United States or across the globe, donating is a really great way to do that.

00:42:35:02 - 00:42:50:27
John Simmerman
And then and before and before you and before you get off that. I just want to make sure that we clarify too, because you mentioned, the five oh, si side of things. You're a nonprofit, A503, but you're also a five. Oh. 5034.

00:42:51:02 - 00:43:15:25
Graham Zimmerman
551 but yeah. Great. 501 great flags do we have we have A501 C3, which is a traditional nonprofit that, you know, and when you donate to that, you receive a tax benefit, which is what we're looking at here. That's not that's what we're looking at here. We also have A501 C4, which is called POW Action Fund. And it's a little harder to raise money for, maybe a lot harder to raise money for because you don't get that tax benefit.

00:43:15:25 - 00:43:22:11
Graham Zimmerman
But, C4 is able to do way more election work, way more endorsement work. Right?

00:43:22:11 - 00:43:42:18
John Simmerman
I want I want to be very I wanted to be very intentional about that because, yes, having two sides of it, having the five and one C3 side of it and having the 501 C4 side of it are important for organizations such as POW, so that you can, yes, do the good work that you're doing that is tax deductible.

00:43:42:18 - 00:43:54:25
John Simmerman
But at the same time, the C4 side of things is able to do, more election stuff and endorse candidates and, you know, and, and quote unquote, lobby those.

00:43:54:25 - 00:44:17:29
Graham Zimmerman
And so those two work together is like a really powerful blend of work. And, and we're seeing we're seeing their, their variety of nonprofits that are kind of taking on that model these days. And I'd say, though, that POW is doing it really well, which is really fun. and then we have, what you were just talking about in alluding to, which is Team Powell and Team Powell is our membership program.

00:44:18:03 - 00:44:51:18
Graham Zimmerman
It is free, and it is designed in order to give everybody in this community the ability to step into this movement. It's it is a place where we share actions that people can take, perspectives and learning opportunities that people can take on in order to further their work. As climate advocates. And we share stories of the work that we're taking on, and share how your stories from the outdoors are actually one of your most potent tools for driving change in the work and the world around you.

00:44:51:21 - 00:45:10:00
Graham Zimmerman
And, and it's really cool. It's something where like, we ultimately need more people in this movement. We talked earlier about how we de-stress our democracy by getting more people involved. And this is a really cool pathway to do that. Yeah.

00:45:10:04 - 00:45:19:05
John Simmerman
You know, fantastic. I'm assuming that there's probably if you joined Team POW, there's probably like a newsletter or something that keeps you up to speed with what's going on.

00:45:19:08 - 00:45:54:17
Graham Zimmerman
Yeah. There I mean, there is a full like curriculum, there is a newsletter, there are action bills that show up. We have the Climate Advocates Guidebook, which is a kind of like a pretty profound pretty like a very robust resource of ways that you can get at this conversation. It's really cool. And yeah, there's there's a there's a lot of there's a lot to get out there and something that if you're interested in climate action and you're interested how you can take it on, despite the fact that maybe you have a carbon footprint because you love to go ride bikes or love to ski like this is a really, really cool place to start.

00:45:54:20 - 00:46:03:22
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Well, to close this out, I want to shift gears and bring the attention back to you.

00:46:03:24 - 00:46:13:03
John Simmerman
so here's your website and, talk a little bit about, you know, the fact that you also have a book right there. Boom.

00:46:13:06 - 00:46:39:02
Graham Zimmerman
Hey, well, I in in October, I published a book. It's called A Fine Line. It's something I am really, really proud of. And, it is, it's it's a memoir about my journey as a climber, as an advocate and as a husband. And I'll just share that there are three primary reasons why I ended up working on this project.

00:46:39:04 - 00:46:55:27
Graham Zimmerman
I'll back up. I'll say that like, I I'm 38, I am very much still in the midst of my career. I will in fact be in Alaska climbing in like a week and a half. And, so it felt kind of odd to, to get this offer to write a book, kind of in the midst of my career.

00:46:55:27 - 00:47:17:02
Graham Zimmerman
And I didn't really have a lot of interest of being just like, oh, yes, I am a climber. Let's talk about that. It's like, I really need this. My core purpose and the things I landed on and the things that there really were the driving kind of, pillars behind this book were one I've lost a lot of friends and climbing and it's, you know, alpine climbing is a dangerous sport.

00:47:17:05 - 00:48:03:12
Graham Zimmerman
And I really was, excited to take on the opportunity to, be able to share their memories and celebrate those folks in a format that's not just like an Instagram post, as instead, you know, like something that sits on the shelf has more staying power. And, and then also, I feel like over the years I have received some fabulous advice about how to pursue a career as a climber, how to balance that against all of the other work that I want to take on, and how to make sure that I have the models, both mental and physical, in place, that will allow for me to survive and continue to do this work.

00:48:03:14 - 00:48:39:19
Graham Zimmerman
And this really presented itself as an opportunity to share some of that advice. It also like credit the folks who gave it to me, which has been really, really cool. And to be able I've been I was on book tour for quite a while there, and to be able to share that was really special. And, and the thing that really kind of, I think wrap up where we're what we're talking about more broadly here is when I was a young climber, I was told that climbing should be everything, and if there was anything in my life that was not in service to my career as a climber, it was a waste of my time

00:48:39:19 - 00:49:19:07
Graham Zimmerman
or it was making me lesser. And ultimately what I have found through some of that really good advice I've been provided, and through my own explorations and journeys, is that climbing has been this thing that has been super powerful in my life. But alone. It has been something that is kind of myopic and very siloed. And when I have brought more things into my life, such as my marriage with my wife Shannon, such as this advocacy work such as my kind of career outside of climbing, and when I brought all of those things together, it has not been a detriment to my climbing.

00:49:19:07 - 00:49:41:08
Graham Zimmerman
In fact, it has made my climbing better. It has meant that I go to the mountains with more purpose, because not only am I thinking about getting up giant hills, but I'm also thinking about the impacts that we can have of those stories. It means that the time that I have at home is more focused and is, to be honest, just like more valuable with my time with Shannon.

00:49:41:08 - 00:50:02:20
Graham Zimmerman
Also, Shannon has taught me so many lessons about not only like big life things, but also being a professional athlete from another sport. She has taught me a lot about training and and for me to like, be able to balance all of these things. And that's really what the book is all about. Nice. There is Shannon. That's our dog Pebble.

00:50:02:22 - 00:50:24:03
Graham Zimmerman
fabulous. Pebble is ridiculous. Beast. I'm just sure there is. Now there's now actually a puppy as well, so there is. And imagine another little little dog running around her feet. but by putting all those things together, I have actually managed to climb the hardest things that I've ever done. Things that have, like won the gold medal of alpine climbing.

00:50:24:06 - 00:50:48:01
Graham Zimmerman
And my hope is that part of that messaging can come across for folks in a way where we demonstrate that looking for ways that we build outdoor recreation into our lives in a way that is sustainable and thoughtful. Is this really powerful pathway forward, and we can be really good at riding bikes. We can be really good at climbing mountains.

00:50:48:08 - 00:51:08:15
Graham Zimmerman
We can be really good at whatever we want to do. and be stewards of the landscapes around us. Be excellent community members, be good partners to those we're in romantic relationships with. And that's that's ultimately what this book is all about. And something that I really, really enjoy to get down on paper and, really enjoyed getting out of the world.

00:51:08:18 - 00:51:15:00
John Simmerman
Yeah, fantastic. And, I think you have a little videos, this video about the book.

00:51:15:05 - 00:51:39:20
Graham Zimmerman
Yeah. We can. Yeah. This is, this is a little high video for the, for the book. What's, Why don't we wrap it up? This is when I started climbing. I experienced a sense of freedom and challenge. Unlike anything else. It felt natural and pure. All I needed to do was learn, improve, and to survive. I stared into the infinite, where everything could either end or begin.

00:51:39:22 - 00:51:46:19
Graham Zimmerman
And for me, this is it. This is the fine line. is the life.

00:51:46:22 - 00:51:50:20
John Simmerman
I love it, love it. That's awesome.

00:51:50:23 - 00:51:52:17
Graham Zimmerman
Thanks for sharing that. That's really fun.

00:51:52:19 - 00:52:00:15
John Simmerman
Oh, you bet, you bet. Graham, this has been so much fun. catching up with you and meeting you. Thank you so much for joining me on the Active Dance podcast.

00:52:00:17 - 00:52:03:09
Graham Zimmerman
Hey, likewise. It's been a pleasure. That's been a really great chat.

00:52:03:11 - 00:52:17:24
John Simmerman
He thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend, and be sure to sign up as a member of Team Pal. and if you have not already done so, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel.

00:52:17:26 - 00:52:42:00
John Simmerman
Just click on the subscription button down below. Ring that notification bell and if you are enjoying this content here on the active Tens channel, please consider supporting my efforts. it's easy to do. Just head on over to the Active Towns website active towns.org. Click on that support button. There's several different options, including becoming a patron, and if you do, you will have early an ad free access to all my video content.

00:52:42:00 - 00:53:08:18
John Simmerman
And again, thank you so much for tuning in. It means so much to me. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers and again sending a huge thank you out to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patreon. Buy me a coffee YouTube. Super! Thanks! As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the Active Towns store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated.

00:53:08:20 - 00:53:09:27
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much!