Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:29
Chris Bruntlett
We're used to thinking as a species in zero sum games, and it's transactional. Yeah. And so if one mode of transportation is benefiting, we often think that others are being disadvantaged. But really, at the end of the day, the part of the story we're telling is that you can build a, a cycling Paradise or train Paradise and a car Paradise.

00:00:23:02 - 00:00:35:01
Chris Bruntlett
And no matter which mode of transportation you choose, you will ultimately benefit from the people that choose other modes of transportation because they're less likely to be in your way.

00:00:35:02 - 00:00:54:04
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman, and that is Chris Bruntlett from the Dutch Cycling Embassy. We are going to be talking about his recent experience traveling to China. Both Beijing and Shanghai and a couple of other places and, some of the learnings that he had and briefly from that experience.

00:00:54:07 - 00:01:10:18
John Simmerman
But before we get to that, I just wanted to say, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Super easy to do. Right here on YouTube, you can just hit the join button here, become a member of the YouTube community here. On Active Towns.

00:01:10:18 - 00:01:25:13
John Simmerman
Or you can navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the page. And there's several different options including becoming a Patreon supporter. Okay, let's get right to it with Chris Bruntlett. That.

00:01:25:15 - 00:01:29:21
John Simmerman
Chris Bruntlett, welcome back to the Active Towns podcast. So great to have you.

00:01:29:23 - 00:01:37:02
Chris Bruntlett
Thanks so much, John. Good to see you again. And I always appreciate the opportunity to, to chat about the various things we're both working on.

00:01:37:05 - 00:01:51:16
John Simmerman
Exactly. Well, and you've been on multiple times of before, so you know the drill. You know that I love giving my guests an opportunity to introduce themselves. So who the heck is Chris Bramlett? For those who don't know already?

00:01:51:18 - 00:02:26:10
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, it's a great question and, one that I constantly find myself struggling to answer. I mean, the short answer is I'm a recovering architect turned, mobility advocate, author and, now, international relations manager for the Dutch cycling embassy. So, I kind of wake up every morning and get to share the cycling Paradise that is the Netherlands, through the organization that I work for, and work in this kind of more increasingly diplomatic role, sharing knowledge.

00:02:26:10 - 00:02:36:09
Chris Bruntlett
And in the world of international cooperation between the Netherlands and various countries, including China, which is, you know, what we're going to talk about today.

00:02:36:11 - 00:02:51:11
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I'll, pop on over to the landing page for the Dutch Cycling Embassy. For those who may not know, what is the Dutch cycling embassy, it sounds rather official.

00:02:51:13 - 00:03:21:03
Chris Bruntlett
It is, and it isn't. Yeah. I mean, we are, an unofficial embassy. We were founded and continue to be financed by the Dutch government, by the Ministry of Infrastructure, in and around 2011. So next year, we'll celebrate our 15th birthday. And the, the idea is basically, you know, in and around that time, they were inundated with requests, requests from other governments, from media journalists and so on and so forth.

00:03:21:06 - 00:03:48:09
Chris Bruntlett
So they decided to set up this external entity to handle those requests and, yeah, sit in this world of, as I said, knowledge sharing and international cooperation. But there also is a very concrete, economic development side that we, also handle in terms of representing the interests of the Dutch cycling sector overseas, and helping them find new markets for their products and services.

00:03:48:11 - 00:04:14:13
Chris Bruntlett
An export value that is now €2.3 billion per year. So not an insignificant, amount of, of money. So, yeah, it is, kind of walking that world between, soft power but also economic development to try and, help Dutch organizations, connect with these, these markets around the world.

00:04:14:15 - 00:04:44:21
John Simmerman
Yeah. And when we look at this, we see, you know, the different sort of buckets did you guys have here. You have cycling and technology, cycling and behavior, cycling and infrastructure, intermodal. And then the strategies and then future proofing places. What's really extraordinary about this story of the Dutch cycling embassy and the work that you all are doing is it's kind of analogous to even my own channel, the, the Active Towns channel.

00:04:44:23 - 00:05:04:00
John Simmerman
And, you know, really leaning in and getting the Active Towns channel going back in in 2021 after I interviewed, Jason Slaughter with Not Just Bikes, and all of a sudden it was just like, wow, there was this flood of people, you know, kind of doing this. A fair number of people who watch the channel on a weekly basis.

00:05:04:03 - 00:05:47:26
John Simmerman
In fact, the vast number, you know, the largest single, group, are Dutch individuals watching it because they're learning something from through the eyes of foreigners that are producing this content and talking about this content. And so a little bit of the story of this is that, the what has evolved over time there in the Netherlands is just this extraordinary power of what the what I like to call the the layering of the different mode mobility modes, whether you know, at the top, you've got the, you know, the public transit system, and then you've got your automobile system and then you have your walking, and also you have your cycling and the

00:05:47:26 - 00:06:12:03
John Simmerman
magic mix that exists between the interplay between all of those mobility modes and those networks is just really quite beautiful. And of course, especially beautiful of that magical combination of the bicycle and transit. And I think that for for many Dutch individuals that I've, you know, dealt with, they're just like you've used this term many, many times in the past.

00:06:12:06 - 00:06:17:06
John Simmerman
They're like fish in water and they don't even realize how special it is.

00:06:17:08 - 00:06:42:09
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, 100%. And I still, you know, six and a half years now as a Canadian living in the Netherlands, find myself explaining to Dutch people how remarkable their cities and streets and, and mobility networks are, because to them, you know, it's, it's just infrastructure and it just exists to help them live their lives the same way that their electricity or water or sewage, do the same thing.

00:06:42:09 - 00:07:12:18
Chris Bruntlett
But it just so happens that they're one of the few countries in the world that built out this infrastructure. Yeah, in a really dedicated and, accelerated manner over, over the last 50 years or so. And now they're in having learned all the lessons along the way of what works and what doesn't work. They're in this position of leadership and responsibility, I would say, to help the rest of the world, yeah, reach that same level of, of infrastructure because infrastructure influences everything.

00:07:12:18 - 00:07:36:27
Chris Bruntlett
It influences our access to opportunity, our, physical and mental health and, yeah. And yet we don't often make that connection between how we move and how we live and, and, and, well, I would argue, you know, countries on the other end of the infrastructure spectrum, just accept that the way that's the way it is and things can never get better.

00:07:36:27 - 00:07:58:03
Chris Bruntlett
And, hopefully the Netherlands, shows them that there is a, there are other alternatives and possibilities around train infrastructure, bike infrastructure that they could also have these choices in their lives, rather than being forced to get into their car every day, every week, every year for the rest of their life.

00:07:58:06 - 00:08:31:22
John Simmerman
Yeah. And, and and I love framing it in that way, you know, these many years later. Because it really is extraordinary, that the Dutch cycling embassy, you're really exporting these concepts and these ideas and all of that. And, I of course, live in, in Austin, Texas, and there's been a longstanding relationship between the Dutch cycling embassy and the city of Austin and, I, I call it my, my Austin's, you know, a Dutch inspired bicycle infrastructure, playlist here.

00:08:31:25 - 00:08:58:29
John Simmerman
There's 63 videos that I've produced, on Austin. You've spoken publicly, in international conferences about the, the the Austin story and, and how that is, you know, sort of coming together. And it's really cool to see that more cities are coming online and you're, you know, not just in North America, but we're going to be talking a little bit about the the China experience as well.

00:08:59:04 - 00:09:13:10
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit to that, because this is very much in your wheelhouse as to what your role is, bringing the in exporting this Dutch experience internationally.

00:09:13:13 - 00:09:35:10
Chris Bruntlett
Well, I, I, constantly talk about Austin. And just this morning, I was talking about Austin to a roomful of policymakers from Portland, Oregon, who were, visiting Utrecht for a study visit. And I think the exceptional thing about Austin was, in 2011, when they started working with the Dutch cycling embassy, they specifically referred to the Netherlands as their North Star.

00:09:35:10 - 00:10:04:24
Chris Bruntlett
You probably heard this, numerous times that they could have gone to other North American cities as reference points, but they wanted the best of the best. And so, I think the proof has, shown that that was a very, exceptionally successful strategy, and has, made them deliver, quality of infrastructure and the level of ambition that will probably hasn't been seen in, in many North American cities.

00:10:04:24 - 00:10:29:11
Chris Bruntlett
So what is most interesting now, I think, is maybe Austin is the North Star for North American cities. And certainly I know, our, we've been working with some cities in Southeast Florida, Miami-Dade and Palm Beach counties. They've actually specifically traveled to Austin as, a reference point in this study visit, instead of coming to the Netherlands, because that feels more achievable.

00:10:29:13 - 00:10:53:21
Chris Bruntlett
And I, I mean, it's not about turning Austin into Amsterdam. You've heard me say that as well, repeatedly, but it's taking these principles and best practices, and adapting them and translating them to the, Austin context. I stress in my presentations, you know, Austin is, around the same population as Greater Amsterdam, but three times the landmass.

00:10:53:21 - 00:11:16:15
Chris Bruntlett
So we're talking, one third of the population density. But even in that kind of really sprawling, car dependent, context that there is low hanging fruit for, changing car trips to bike trips, and there's a lot of short car journeys that they obviously specifically targeted with their their cycling infrastructure investments. So it's just changing the way we think.

00:11:16:15 - 00:11:31:21
Chris Bruntlett
And, at the end of the day, I think the Netherlands has a lot of, those types of, perspectives that, serve as a light bulb moments in the, in the workshops, in the study visits that we, conduct on a weekly basis.

00:11:31:24 - 00:11:59:06
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that. We're seeing more and more people from across North America, making the pilgrimage here to Austin to see kind of what's happening on the ground and see, oh, my gosh, how's this city in the heart of Texas, you know, being able to do this? And what's really neat about this, too, the success story that is, Austin, is that we're seeing, a correction in, in sort of the, the land use patterns to.

00:11:59:06 - 00:12:42:00
John Simmerman
And so not only are we seeing the actual cycle network, you know, being developed and being, you know, built out, but we are also seeing the thickening of the housing stock. And so at the same time, what you're seeing when you see this beautiful, you know, terracotta colored, Dutch colored, you know, cycle track, you know, leading out of downtown into the Near East Side, you're suddenly realizing, oh, we've got all this gentle density around here, we've got these buildings that are housing thousands upon thousands of people, many of them young professionals and young families that are now within walking and biking distance to meaningful destinations, including, you know, the

00:12:42:00 - 00:13:05:21
John Simmerman
downtown employment centers, the amazing music venues that we have here. We are the live music capital of of, North America or the world, as they like to say. And so there's, there's all of this, that fits because it's not just about the cycling infrastructure. And you like to say all the time, it's not about the bike, it's about what the bike and what cycling can do for the city.

00:13:05:21 - 00:13:10:04
John Simmerman
Expand upon that just a little bit before we dive into China.

00:13:10:06 - 00:13:38:19
Chris Bruntlett
Oh, gosh. Yeah. Well, this is I think it runs very much in parallel with, my, journey through the world of bike advocacy because I think when I first traveled to the Netherlands in 2016, along with my wife and Coconspirator coauthor Melissa, we were very much focused on the bike because we were just interested in bike lanes and, and, bike parking and how to make a city more bike friendly.

00:13:38:19 - 00:13:58:26
Chris Bruntlett
And I think that was very much the angle of our first book Building the Cycling City. But once we moved to the Netherlands in 2019 and actually got to live here as residents, I think we we very quickly began to understand that it's not about the bike, it is about, yeah, using the bike as a tool to achieve your broader societal goals.

00:13:58:26 - 00:14:24:16
Chris Bruntlett
In the case of the Netherlands, it's about creating more livable, inclusive, prosperous cities, low car cities. And that, hence the title of the second book, makes the case for fewer cars in our lives. Because when we use the bike as a tool to reduce the dominance and dependance on cars, then we unlock all of this opportunity for ourselves as human beings and contributors to society.

00:14:24:16 - 00:14:47:18
Chris Bruntlett
And that was, I think, very much for us, an moment to, start lobbying for, for something more than just bike lanes, because I think and now in 2025, with the way that the culture war has, evolved, if you start leading the conversation with bike lanes, you're going to lose very quickly because, you're almost telling people what they need to do.

00:14:47:18 - 00:15:11:05
Chris Bruntlett
And I much prefer to lead with the, the values, the goals and aspirations that a lot of us still have is a community. And as a society around, being able to age in place to raise free, autonomous children, building a resilient, prosperous, inclusive city. And then we can debate a little bit about how to get there.

00:15:11:05 - 00:15:33:27
Chris Bruntlett
But I think the broader consensus is on those goals. And I think that's something that Austin to bring it full circle. It's something that Austin had to do and continues to do fairly well because, the, the money for the Austin cycling plan had to go to the electorate and people had to vote, to unlock those funds for hundreds of millions of dollars that paid for these bike lanes.

00:15:33:29 - 00:16:00:29
Chris Bruntlett
And to, you know, to unlock that money and to get what was 60% of the electorate to vote in favor of the infrastructure, you had to tell a broader story about what it was going to help Austin accomplish in terms of helping them grow in a, a way that was, going to reduce traffic congestion, was going to increase affordability for our residents and create a better city for everybody who lived there, whether they get on a bike or not.

00:16:01:01 - 00:16:24:29
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And, we have on screen here, the, the first two books, again, building the cycling city in the second book, curbing traffic. And then you have a forthcoming book, with, your lovely wife and coauthor Melissa, that is coming out in October. So you and and I and and Melissa, we're all going to get together again, very soon to talk about this new book.

00:16:24:29 - 00:16:39:00
John Simmerman
So we won't we won't dive into the details of this book. So stay tuned, folks. So we will be talking about that one later. But yeah, you guys have been busy. I mean, it looks like we've got a book, every, 3 or 4 years here.

00:16:39:02 - 00:17:01:28
Chris Bruntlett
Okay. Well, after two, we kind of said for a while that we weren't going to do it again. And, and it was really kind of the perfect project. Fell into our laps. And we can talk more about that later. But, we said if we were going to put ourselves through that rigamarole again, it had to be something we were both passionate about and we'd have fun doing it.

00:17:01:28 - 00:17:06:29
Chris Bruntlett
And I think we very much accomplished that. The third time around.

00:17:07:01 - 00:17:22:03
John Simmerman
Okay, well, let's shift gears and talk about China and, no, folks, this isn't, this isn't a, a zoom backdrop. Here, this this is Chris in China. Looks like we're wearing the same shirt, though. So you're you're in uniform.

00:17:22:06 - 00:17:29:02
Chris Bruntlett
So. Yes. That's a nice little coincidence. Yeah. I didn't notice that when I got dressed this morning.

00:17:29:04 - 00:17:42:05
John Simmerman
That's right. Yeah. No, I it's we didn't compare notes that say okay, make sure that you're wearing the same thing. So so talk about this opportunity to go to China. Was this your first visit to China?

00:17:42:08 - 00:18:07:28
Chris Bruntlett
It was. Yeah. And it really came out of, a working relationship that the Dutch cycling embassy had with the Inter Traffic organization. And they are a, a global congress, based in Amsterdam. But they have three events, that rotate every two years between Mexico City, Amsterdam and Shanghai. And, we'd contributed quite successfully, to the past to Amsterdam editions.

00:18:08:01 - 00:18:43:14
Chris Bruntlett
But we're very lucky enough to be invited to join them in Shanghai. In, in 2025. So, this became the focal points and, and the way that we were able to, to fund this trip, but it did mean that, yeah, for the first time, I was able to get very much out of my comfort zone and into, a place where, well, yeah, I had to put in my my research to make sure I had all the right apps downloaded and methods of payments and, language, translations and so on and so forth.

00:18:43:16 - 00:18:55:08
Chris Bruntlett
But, yeah, very much enjoyed every moment and still kind of, pinching myself. That had happened now, three weeks after, after I'd been back.

00:18:55:10 - 00:19:14:12
John Simmerman
And these are some images, we're just going to scroll through some images and let you riff on these things as we scroll through and, and and move through these, for folks who were just listening only to this, you know, we'll do our best to, to kind of meet you, Chris, I'll let you just kind of, you know, describe what you're seeing, what we're seeing on screen to give context to it.

00:19:14:12 - 00:19:21:21
John Simmerman
But as I understand, this is, you know, the very beginning, your your first impressions when you arrived in China in Beijing. Is that correct?

00:19:21:23 - 00:19:54:12
Chris Bruntlett
Exactly. And I the first half of my trip was spent in Beijing, and I have to admit that I had a fair amount of anxiety going into this. I mean, the last two, megalopolis that I had visited were Delhi and Mexico City, which are quite, you know, polluted, congested, stressful experiences. But I think within a few hours of being in Beijing, I realized that I need to be worried because it is a very livable, bikeable public transport, public space rich city.

00:19:54:14 - 00:20:18:22
Chris Bruntlett
And, yeah, I mean, I, I think the photographs that I shared on social media and shared with you today try to, to capture that, in the instance of these, women that are dressed in traditional Chinese attire, this is, a bit of a tradition, of, people traveling to the Forbidden City in the center of Beijing, for for Chinese tourists.

00:20:18:22 - 00:20:39:17
Chris Bruntlett
This is kind of a trip of a lifetime. So they bring often, a photographer with them, or they hire a local photographer. They they rent the costume and the hair and the makeup, and they have, very personal and professional photos taken in front of the the stunning architecture. And these become a keepsake of their visit to Beijing.

00:20:39:22 - 00:20:54:06
Chris Bruntlett
So it's a kind of side product that that you have all of these people, walking and cycling around the Forbidden City in this traditional Chinese, dress, which makes it a bit of a surreal sight. This is not artificial intelligence. This is real life.

00:20:54:09 - 00:21:29:27
John Simmerman
Wow, wow. And this is an interesting mix up or a mash up of of mobility modes that we see here. And again, the two gals in the traditional, clothing, as well the historical context, describe this for the viewing or listening only audience what we see here, because we really see, I think, a mash up of, of not only mobility modes, but also different, eras in terms of mobility.

00:21:30:00 - 00:21:36:04
John Simmerman
Over the past 50, 60 years in, in China mashed into one.

00:21:36:07 - 00:22:05:23
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. And when we talk about cycling, as it's often, so often the case in 2025, we're no longer talking about one single type of cycling. There's so many different, mobility devices and vehicles that, fall under this cycling umbrella. And the fact of the matter is, in cities like Beijing and all across China, what they refer to e-bikes that make up the the majority of traffic on the cycling infrastructure aren't actually what you and I would consider e-bikes.

00:22:05:23 - 00:22:28:15
Chris Bruntlett
They aren't pedal assist. They are more kind of mopeds or scooters. They do have pedals on there, but nobody actually uses them. So they ride. They kind of it's a very passive, form of transportation. Certainly better than a car, but, not ideal in terms of, well, the speeds technically their speed limited to 25km an hour.

00:22:28:17 - 00:23:06:18
Chris Bruntlett
But, much like most e-bikes, that's hackable or adjustable. And, and unfortunately, they do tend to dominate a lot of the cycle paths. And then alternatively, yeah, you do have the, traditional, old pedal powered cyclists and yeah, there's certainly plenty of plenty of those using the cycle paths as well. But what was also quite interesting to me, was that there is actually very few people that own their own private bicycle in these cities in China, because the shared bike schemes are so prevalent and so affordable.

00:23:06:20 - 00:23:46:08
Chris Bruntlett
It was there now 2 million shared bikes in, in Beijing alone. And you can you can rent one via an app for pennies a ride. That they kind of make the idea of owning your bike redundant because you don't need to worry about parking or, theft or or those other challenges. So, a lot of the, two wheeled, non-electric cyclists that you would see on the streets of Beijing or Shanghai or elsewhere, would be using these these blue or yellow or green, shared bikes that are run by, well, mega corporations like, Alibaba or likewise.

00:23:46:10 - 00:24:05:01
Chris Bruntlett
So they can probably afford to take, financial hit on the shared bikes, which is why they're, they're able to be as cheap as they are. And it's also when you open the app to rent a bike, they're trying to sell you about 10,000 other things as well, from fast food to, yeah, grocery deliveries or whatever.

00:24:05:03 - 00:24:28:15
John Simmerman
Well, and that brings that brings us down to, to what that whole dockless mobility system really was all about the app. It wasn't really about the mobility. It was about the app and about kind of understanding where people are going and leveraging that data, that information, to try to sell you stuff and or sell that information to, you know, other buyers.

00:24:28:23 - 00:25:09:03
John Simmerman
But it is interesting here we see the mix up of, of, what I'm assuming are a mixture of shared bike systems, individually owned bikes. We've got a mobility, trike or adaptive, a device to wheelchair here. And that was prevalent in, in most of these images is we do see lots and lots of cars. I don't know if this is a flying pigeon, the famous, you know, Chinese bike of, of yesteryear, but that's, you know, some of the images or visuals that we have for those people who did visit, China before automobile ization really took over.

00:25:09:05 - 00:25:30:09
John Simmerman
Is that the I mean, this was the main way of getting around in most of the cities was being on one of the very pragmatic, cheap bicycles, very, very simple, you know, flying pigeon bicycle to be able to get around. And so, many people, when they have memories of what it was like in China. Oh. Our visit.

00:25:30:09 - 00:25:54:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, I visited there. It was amazing there. Everybody was riding a bike, but then the Automobile Association took over and we started to see in this particular image where we've got the two gals in the traditional, clothing, the historic clothing. Here we see just the traffic jam in the background. And that's kind of been the more modern over the last couple of decades.

00:25:54:18 - 00:26:27:08
John Simmerman
Narrative about China and about mobility is that they built out their automobile infrastructure to the point where it really started to encourage people to get on motorized modes of traffic. And then two things started to happen massive amounts of air pollution and massive amounts of, debilitating gridlock. And so that made international news of the challenges of, of, you know, traffic jams that would last, you know, long periods of time.

00:26:27:10 - 00:26:51:03
John Simmerman
And it seems like to me, if I'm kind of reading into this and reading between the lines, is that some of the images that we're going to see here in the next few, you know, as we continue this conversation, is that they're starting to say, oh, we leaned way too far into just this concept of getting people around by automobile.

00:26:51:06 - 00:27:03:01
John Simmerman
We should be thinking more of like, what we talked about earlier, of an overlaying of different mobility networks and modes. Am I jumping on the gun here on that or.

00:27:03:03 - 00:27:27:12
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. No, I think you've hit the nail on the head. And that was the thing that really, I think, my big takeaway was, from my time in China was, of course, this was famously the kingdom of bicycles. Beijing was the city of 9 million bikes. But a lot of that was abandoned and forgotten in the 80s and 90s in the name of prosperity.

00:27:27:12 - 00:27:49:14
Chris Bruntlett
Everybody was encouraged to get a car and to drive everywhere. And it's really only in the last decade or so that you see this course correction, this, admission that that was a mistake, that that was a dead end. And, it's not, again, about designing the car out of the city altogether, but carving out enough space so that people have choices.

00:27:49:16 - 00:28:12:02
Chris Bruntlett
And, in the case of Beijing, you know, they do have the space and these giant eight lane arterial roads where they can carve out one lane in each direction for the bike traffic, and, yeah, they it obviously frees up precious road space for people who want to drive and still need to drive. And, so it's a real mishmash of infrastructure.

00:28:12:02 - 00:28:39:02
Chris Bruntlett
You can see from the photos here. In some case, it's metal fences, in some case it's actual physical concrete. But, at the end of the day, yeah, it's, in Beijing alone, 3200km of cycling infrastructure, a network that they built out in a decade and are adding to it, more than 200km a year. So this is, a comeback that's happening at, yeah.

00:28:39:04 - 00:28:49:25
Chris Bruntlett
A momentous scale and pace and really, with an understanding that, the more people cycling in your city, the the better that city works for everybody.

00:28:49:27 - 00:28:59:12
John Simmerman
Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of the story, and it's a different context, obviously, but it reminds me a little bit of the story of Rotterdam.

00:28:59:14 - 00:29:35:23
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, also in the case of Rotterdam, they had plenty of space on their streets to reallocate to other modes of transportation. And, yeah, I've done that in recent decades. Now it really I think, Beijing is not necessarily representative of the larger country. And I think, from my conversations with, with local policymakers and advocates, and certainly what I experienced in Shanghai was very different because, they didn't necessarily have the space or the political leadership, to, to build out their network.

00:29:35:25 - 00:29:54:16
Chris Bruntlett
And one thing I did hear again and again, that was that the mayor of Beijing in particular, having visited the Netherlands on numerous occasions, was actually driving this process, back to a more bike orientated society, in part because of what he'd seen in cities like The Hague, in Rotterdam.

00:29:54:18 - 00:30:19:14
John Simmerman
Right now, we're looking at a series of photos here that I think is starting to tell the whole bike train combination. And again, I, I love that narrative. I've interviewed, Roland Cotter, who, you know, has his office there in Rotterdam. And, in talking about the that magic combination that the Dutch have in terms of the relationship, what is it?

00:30:19:14 - 00:30:37:16
John Simmerman
Some 30, 40% of people arrive, to train station via bike. Hence the reason for the necessity for for good, secure and plentiful bike parking so that it doesn't become chaos. What did you see there in China and Beijing in particular? With the whole bike train combination?

00:30:37:18 - 00:30:54:21
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. And and I will admit, this is kind of in my almost six and a half years. Is that that cycling embassy? One of those moments where I had to adjust my story because I'm used to going to places, and telling them this is what the Dutch do. This is how you should be aspiring to be more like the Dutch.

00:30:54:23 - 00:31:18:23
Chris Bruntlett
In this case, I discovered very quickly. Well, the Chinese are combining cycling and public transport, perhaps even on a larger scale. And the numbers are quite staggering. And, yeah, like I said, 2 million shared bikes in the city of Beijing, nearly a billion, trips a year on those shared bikes. And 70% of them are to or from a subway stop.

00:31:18:26 - 00:31:40:13
Chris Bruntlett
So, it just speaks to this, this synergy that we talk about feeding more passengers into your public transport system, putting more cyclists on the cycle paths. The to work modes, working together, to replace the car over longer and longer distances. In the case of Beijing, from one side of the city to the other, it's, you know, over 100km.

00:31:40:15 - 00:32:22:16
Chris Bruntlett
But you can bridge that, that distance if you make that journey as seamless as possible. The the thing with the, of course, the where there's perhaps room for improvement is the fact that the areas around the, subway stops are so disorganized, you know, it's, Well, I wouldn't say I wouldn't. Maybe disorganized is unfair because they're obviously parked in, in very careful and, tidy rows, but, in the Dutch situation, you would probably, of course, put those bikes underground, or at least in a more, spatially efficient manner to free up that public space, for greenery and seating and social interaction.

00:32:22:23 - 00:32:27:29
Chris Bruntlett
Whereas right now the bikes do take up a lot of that public space in and around the subway stops.

00:32:28:01 - 00:33:01:01
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, I'm lingering on this just because it's a great shot of somebody also in a rather interesting tricycle. Or is that a motorcycle with a sidecar? I can't tell, but an interesting device to your point of earlier is that, yeah, many of the cycle paths are being used by other types of contraptions. Not not unlike what we see in the Netherlands with, you know, some of the scooters that are able to, still travel and traverse in the, in the cycle paths that some level.

00:33:01:01 - 00:33:01:09
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:33:01:16 - 00:33:26:07
Chris Bruntlett
Well, this was another, I think, area where I had to adjust my story because I usually talk about the width of cycling infrastructure and its importance. But I again learned very quickly the cycle paths in Beijing or 4 to 5m wide, one in each direction on every street. And that. Yeah, they are used by a variety of mobility devices, people in hand cycles, other adapted types of cycles.

00:33:26:07 - 00:33:39:14
Chris Bruntlett
So, yeah, in a lot of ways, you know, China is, is at a level, that's comparable to the Netherlands. And I think that was, a very pleasant surprise based on my time there.

00:33:39:17 - 00:34:00:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. When you look at that, you know, now that you've experienced that bike, train, bike transit, public transit combination, there and how it's working in China, and you're looking at the Netherlands and kind of relooking at this, were you able to use those bike share bikes? Were you able to use the app and.

00:34:00:14 - 00:34:02:09
Chris Bruntlett
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:02:11 - 00:34:33:05
John Simmerman
And so that's that's been one of the the interesting challenges that I think, from the perspective of an outsider traveling in the Netherlands is that, like, for instance, for me to be able to check out and obey feets bike, it's rather complicated. I can't do that easily. I'd have to go try to find, a Donkey Republic bike and see if I can, you know, get one of those, have access to one of those.

00:34:33:08 - 00:34:55:01
John Simmerman
And so I, I always found it. I didn't ever need it because I. Oh, you know, me, I've always got my Brompton with me. So, but there was the, a situation where a friend was visiting Utrecht, and we needed to check out an over. She actually did have, the ability to check one out, but the biggest challenge was that she got to attract and there weren't bikes available.

00:34:55:01 - 00:35:29:24
John Simmerman
They were completely all checked out. And so. And I know that I know that they just had a recent, announcement that they're going to be adding to the fleet because of this very problem. And so that's one of the challenges, I think, of, you know, being able to get to your meaningful destinations or being able to leverage a bike sharing scheme system so that you don't have to, take your own bike, leave your own bike, or have a potentially another private bike at, at your destination for fear that you'll get to that destination.

00:35:29:24 - 00:35:33:09
John Simmerman
And all the overfits are gone?

00:35:33:11 - 00:35:52:28
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, it's a tremendously important point, and it's something I've been asked a few times by my dad's colleagues since I've been back, as what could the Netherlands take from China and I think that's the first thing that I would point to is that, a lot of the challenges that are happening around the Netherlands right now are on induced demand.

00:35:53:01 - 00:36:23:09
Chris Bruntlett
But, what we would say is the right type of induced demand, it's, the pressures on the bike parking spaces at the train stations and pressures on the of the shared bicycles, at the railway stations. And both of those could potentially be solved with a more scalable, affordable, shared bike system. You know, think about the response up to now has been, well, we'll just add more bike parking.

00:36:23:12 - 00:36:45:27
Chris Bruntlett
Not unlike, you know, the highway engineer who's adding more lanes to his motorway. Not once, not once. Do we stop to ask, well, could we be solving this problem in in different ways? And, so, but it's it's obviously complex because as I indicated, you know, these, these bike sharing schemes aren't subsidized by the government. They're subsidized by private industry.

00:36:45:29 - 00:37:03:16
Chris Bruntlett
And the challenge, particularly with the overfits is, and this is becoming a huge pet peeve of mine because almost every morning now, every wherever I travel in the Netherlands, if I'm not there before 9:00, the all the blue and yellow they feed are gone. Sold out. Right? Yeah.

00:37:03:19 - 00:37:05:17
John Simmerman
And that's exactly why I'm there. Amanda.

00:37:05:18 - 00:37:28:26
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Standing there waiting for one to come back and not knowing when that could be or, you know, scrambling to take the bus or, or another means of travel. And that's where the system is, is breaking down right now. And yeah, perhaps with a more scalable solution, the smarter solution. And I know there are some smart people working on it, like we're all in cargo.

00:37:28:28 - 00:37:54:21
Chris Bruntlett
Trying to bring to the railway company alternatives to just throwing capacity at the, at the problem and hoping that it fixes itself because, yeah, obviously bike parking is a lot cheaper and spatially better than, than building car capacity. But at the end of the day, it's still costing millions. And, and also precious public space at the railway stations where people need it the most.

00:37:54:24 - 00:38:00:18
John Simmerman
Yeah. All right, let's get into some bike bling here, talk about this project.

00:38:00:24 - 00:38:31:03
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. Well, this was I think. Yeah. One of my main reasons for visiting Beijing was, you know, we had a few years ago connected, the municipality of Beijing with royal house coming DHV a consultant that are part of the Dutch cycling embassy network. As as we were told, the mayor of Beijing, who had just gotten back from The Hague, and the municipality had moved its offices to a brand new residential district, on the east of Beijing called Hangzhou.

00:38:31:06 - 00:39:02:15
Chris Bruntlett
And, the directive from the mayor was, as they were developing the housing in the commercial areas around this district, was it had to be connected by bike infrastructure. And they as the spine of this cycling network, they envisage the Dutch style door fits route, continuous cycling route, nonstop cycling routes. And so Royal Haskins were brought in and paired up with a local Chinese consultant to design, this three kilometer or so, cycling route.

00:39:02:15 - 00:39:24:21
Chris Bruntlett
And it really kind of yeah, I think embodies the, the five elements of, network design that we're often talking about in terms of directness, cohesion, safety, comfort and attractiveness. And, well, we were lucky enough to ride it, while it was still under construction. The construction crews are just finishing it off. It'll be open any day now.

00:39:24:21 - 00:39:42:00
Chris Bruntlett
Hopefully by, the mayor of Beijing and the Netherlands. Ambassador, riding together on this cycle path is, I think a beautiful, symbol of this international cooperation that we are, obviously. Yeah. Touting as, as an organization.

00:39:42:02 - 00:40:17:05
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Tremendous. I mean, look at it, you know, the quality of of what they have built here. You can see, you've got the, the beautiful that it looks like they had planted, a wonderful line of trees all along that area as well. And so, yeah, I mean, you can't wait for this to to become, you know, to mature and, and really, you know, build out now, you had mentioned that, that it was intentionally built here and they're, they're developing it out, I'm assuming just past the the visual there.

00:40:17:07 - 00:40:27:04
John Simmerman
It's connecting people to meaningful destinations. There's housing and or work, types of situations there. Or is this literally through the countryside?

00:40:27:07 - 00:41:05:21
Chris Bruntlett
No, no, it's very much a densely populated residential area on one side with these kind of typically Chinese towers, 6 or 8 of them all at the same kind of design. And, and then, of course, the, the city center of Tokyo, where a lot of the offices and shops are, but it also doubles as a piece of recreational infrastructure, I think, and very similar to the the piece of infrastructure which is now on the screen, kind of Monday to Friday, it's maybe for transportation and then on the weekends, very much use by recreation cyclists, to, get away from the, the busy streets and to get on a piece of dedicated,

00:41:05:23 - 00:41:06:23
Chris Bruntlett
cycling infrastructure.

00:41:06:26 - 00:41:36:01
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about that. I mean, is is it a situation like in North America and many other, you know, Western, you know, societies where they really do need to be out when they do have a little bit of free time. They really do need to be able to get out and get some fresh air and get some, you know, quote unquote activity in without it being, you know, feeling like it's got to be exercise with a capital E or a workout, but is something where you can jump on a bike and go explore and get some fresh air.

00:41:36:03 - 00:42:00:08
Chris Bruntlett
Absolutely. And you can see almost well in the background of this project. You know, the the density of the residential developments around something like this. You know, a lot of. Oh, yeah, there you go. Yeah. The perfect, kind of embodiment of that. And the fact of the matter is, yeah, most of residents of cities like Beijing have very little, space internally.

00:42:00:08 - 00:42:27:11
Chris Bruntlett
And so access to the city and access to these, active spaces, restorative spaces, become critical. And I think, I mean, through my time there, I think I tried to visit as many of these places as possible and document them. But this was really kind of this particular project in the north of Beijing was quite, I think got a lot of attention on social media from people who kind of.

00:42:27:13 - 00:42:49:24
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, were amazed that, the way I've been describing it is it's basically the hub and ring in Eindhoven, but, five kilometers long. So you can you can cycle. Cycle. On this, uninterrupted elevated path, with a counter flow lane in the middle. And by the way, right. It is in all the traditional senses of a highway.

00:42:49:26 - 00:42:57:28
Chris Bruntlett
It's been built for commuters that are traveling between the residential area and some of the nearby, tech manufacturing facilities.

00:42:58:00 - 00:43:14:16
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, I was going to say you could see in the lighting, above, you've got the green arrow on the right hand side, which is, you know, for traffic flowing in this direction, that's where you're supposed to be. And then the two is on the other side, saying, oh, yeah, no, you're going to incur people coming the other direction.

00:43:14:21 - 00:43:31:10
John Simmerman
So is the intention of this the sort of reddish center lane, sort of like a passing lane, where you can get over there if you need to. Or is it for for Bowdoin, for them, for Bowdoin, for them, to travel in that at all? Since there's a red X there.

00:43:31:13 - 00:43:55:06
Chris Bruntlett
You know, it's, it's basically designed, yeah, to cater to rush hour traffic. So you can see the 002 12 in the center of the screen. So from midnight to noon, it goes one direction eastbound and from noon to midnight, it goes westbound, or the other direction.

00:43:55:06 - 00:43:58:02
John Simmerman
So traffic management system right there.

00:43:58:05 - 00:44:21:09
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, exactly. And I think maybe it's overkill. Of course, on a six meter wide path, but they're getting now on average, about 12,000 users a day. So, you know, enough to, to justify its existence, but, complete with on and off ramps and kind of all the, the traditional elements that you might see on a, a freeway.

00:44:21:11 - 00:44:30:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. And and this is a great, picture to illustrate the fact that this is an elevated cycle way. I don't think we actually said that.

00:44:30:27 - 00:44:50:14
Chris Bruntlett
Exactly. Yeah. There's a little bit at the end that that goes down to ground level. But, the vast majority of it is up in an elevated to. Yeah. Good. 5 or 6m off, off the ground, if not more. Which means that, yeah, you do have to kind of get up on the ramps, to, to access that space.

00:44:50:14 - 00:45:22:18
Chris Bruntlett
But it also means that you are, riding completely free from, from traffic and, well, the story that behind this specific piece of infrastructure was that the it connects basically three subway stations in the north of Beijing. And, they are at capacity, like there's queues to get just to get on the platform during rush hour. So the the idea was that this would provide an alternative to those commuters who maybe don't want to sit on a platform for half an hour to wait for it to get access to a train.

00:45:22:20 - 00:45:42:13
John Simmerman
Fascinating, fascinating. No. Did you get a sense that, you know, it's it's very well used. I mean, I didn't necessarily see Utrecht a levels of bicycle traffic, you know, on this facility. Is it just a matter of the timing, the time of day that you were there?

00:45:42:16 - 00:46:03:18
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, that's a good point. And then I did, happen to visit on a Saturday afternoon. So, for the most part, it was just recreational cyclists, a fair number of families, which you didn't maybe necessarily see at street level. Because in part, I think because the electric bikes and the mopeds are prohibited from this specific piece of infrastructure.

00:46:03:20 - 00:46:34:24
Chris Bruntlett
It's okay to give, give, non-electric cyclists a bit of a respite from, that, those, those users. But, yeah, like I said, 12,000 users a day on average, Monday to Friday. So, yeah, maybe not. The Brandenburg in Utrecht, which is pushing 40,000, but still, enough for a relatively, you know, modest investment, of course, compared to car infrastructure, super cheap.

00:46:34:24 - 00:46:43:29
Chris Bruntlett
And and the return on that investment, of course, is, healthier, happier people and people able to get to their jobs, a little bit quicker.

00:46:44:02 - 00:47:11:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. Jobs and meaningful destinations. Being able to get there without contributing to traffic jams, traffic pressures, air pollution, all of these types of things are really, really critical issue. We can't, you know, have this discussion about China without getting into high speed rail and all that. So let's pop on over to, to this, set of images here.

00:47:11:03 - 00:47:13:06
John Simmerman
Walk us through your experience here.

00:47:13:08 - 00:47:34:16
Chris Bruntlett
Well, yeah. This was, you know, when I dreamed up my visit to Beijing. Of course, I wasn't going to hop on a plane from Beijing to Shanghai when I knew, the option to take a high speed train was there. And this is, 1318km from city center to city center. And the journey, takes just over four hours.

00:47:34:16 - 00:48:09:02
Chris Bruntlett
So you're averaging 350km/h. And for the price equivalent of less than €80 for a ticket, was kind of. Yeah. One of those, moments where. Yeah, certainly Europe could learn from this. America could learn from this, the normalization of, railway travel to a lot of these people. It's no, more remarkable than than hopping in their car or hopping on a plane, but it's been obviously made way more comfortable.

00:48:09:02 - 00:48:33:25
Chris Bruntlett
It's way more affordable, and way more convenient that you can travel between these two economic centers, in such a short period of time. And so, yeah, that was definitely one of the, the highlights of my visit. And, yeah, I think, a piece of infrastructure that, is really kind of, aspirational for, for a lot of places in the world.

00:48:33:28 - 00:49:01:09
John Simmerman
Now I get the sense to the this is, you know, speaking of like, future proofing and future thinking about the future. We talked about the experience that we saw, you know, China going through and and again, I'm, I haven't been there. I'm not an expert on that, but I can just kind of see from, you know, thinking about this through the lens that I think about these things through, you know, a lens of activity assets and encouraging active mobility.

00:49:01:12 - 00:49:24:02
John Simmerman
I can see that. Oh my gosh, I it's like really, really cool. I want to go visit. There's all the, you know, like you said, a place of 9 million, you know, bicycles and all all this stuff happening in Beijing and all that. And then it then they go way over towards the automobile. And then, like we had mentioned, they're starting to to reimagine this, including the rail transit, the subway transit, the, the, the high speed rail.

00:49:24:04 - 00:49:46:28
John Simmerman
And now, you know, looking at building out more formalized bicycle infrastructure because, as I understand it, the bicycling infrastructure, the bicycling environment of the past, you know, when you have that vision of what it was like in the 1970s and 1980s is that the bikes were just everywhere, mixed with everything else. Now they're starting to to lean in towards.

00:49:46:28 - 00:49:53:28
John Simmerman
Okay, well, maybe if we're going to do this now that we have all these cars, maybe we have separated infrastructure.

00:49:54:00 - 00:50:21:06
Chris Bruntlett
Absolutely. And that was kind of one of the more interesting parts of my visit was, to learn how the Netherlands, perhaps, influenced the design of that infrastructure. Almost every, policymaker that I met with had a copy of the Chrome Manual, for example. Oh, wow. So they, they've been kind of quietly copying and pasting the, the design standards from the Netherlands.

00:50:21:09 - 00:50:52:08
Chris Bruntlett
And, and when they gave presentations at these sessions, like you see here at Into Traffic, they were using photos of Delft and Groningen and Utrecht, and referencing, referencing traffic circulation plans and network designs. This is telling the Dutch cycling embassy story for us, from the Chinese perspective. So they clearly were students of the, the Dutch experience and the Dutch policy making history.

00:50:52:10 - 00:51:10:27
Chris Bruntlett
And so it was yeah. Really cool to hear that and to see that firsthand that, despite the fact that this was the first time that the Dutch cycling embassy had formally been invited to the table, over the last ten years, we very much been, an influence and an inspiration for the development of that infrastructure.

00:51:10:27 - 00:51:26:11
Chris Bruntlett
Our hope now is that we can, continue that exchange of ideas and conversation in a more formalized and long term manner, to work together to help them really achieve that. Once again, that, Kingdom of Bicycles crowd.

00:51:26:13 - 00:52:04:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. This image right here that you're speaking of the whole van ring, this this, this image of something, you know, elevator. I understand that the those tension wires in the background or for that, automobile infrastructure from behind there. But, you know, again, bling infrastructure and, really impressive amounts of infrastructure construction happening, which again, is is something rather unique about the the Chinese experience is that if they if they've set their mind to the fact that, you know, this is what the government wants to see, they will pour resources towards it and build it out.

00:52:04:23 - 00:52:30:03
John Simmerman
That's exactly the reason they got themselves into the mess that they did with having, you know, cars as being one of the most inefficient ways of getting around you went whole hog towards encouraging people to get in cars, and you're building out more and more freeways and expressways. Guess what happens? You know, because of that nature, you get gridlock and that's what you get and you get pollution, etc. but it is impressive when they're like, oh, okay, pivot.

00:52:30:06 - 00:52:56:24
John Simmerman
We need to actually have mobility choice, authentic mobility choice and then starting to put the resources towards that. And then you can start to build some of this very, very impressive active mobility infrastructure to compliment the trail or the trains and the subways and the option. And then, as we saw in some of the earlier images from Beijing, there's still that ability to drive if you really want to or have to drive.

00:52:56:27 - 00:53:22:16
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. I think you you've once again done hit the nail on the head. And this is, certainly one of my takeaways, like you said, when when, a government official from China decides to do something, it happens very quickly. And without hesitation. And, perhaps one of the best examples of that is the, uptake of electric cars in a lot of Chinese cities.

00:53:22:16 - 00:53:53:06
Chris Bruntlett
And this was also something that I was kind of prepared for. But, once you are in a city like Shanghai or Beijing, where over two thirds of the cars on the streets are electric, suddenly that changes the look and the feel of the city entirely. And was was also, I think, quite surprising. If you have to have a car dominated city, then, you know, there are worse things to do than to make them predominantly electric.

00:53:53:08 - 00:54:16:14
Chris Bruntlett
And of course, the frustrating thing is we're sitting in Europe and North America, still arguing about the timeline for electrification, whether it's going to be 2030 or 20 40 or 2050. The Chinese are just doing it and getting on with it. And and now the Chinese manufacturers, I think, are ready to take over the world, in terms of, yeah, selling their cars to, to consumers.

00:54:16:14 - 00:54:55:19
Chris Bruntlett
But, to bring it back to active mobility, you know, it's, it's really I think, this is also embodied in the, the photos that you're seeing on the screen. You know, these are, prestige, projects. These are not, compromises by any stretch of the imagination. The, the twirling ramps, the elevated cycle paths, the, you know, it's really kind of, astonishing to see the level of ambition and, and the willingness to really kind of, not spare any expense when it comes to, giving people safe and attractive places to walk or cycle.

00:54:55:22 - 00:55:28:26
John Simmerman
And, lingering on this particular image so that we can talk a little bit about how they're working on managing the, the scooter infiltration and, and all of that. So we see on the sign here that it appears that the quote unquote, motorcyle wheels and it looks like the scooters are banned here. Do you know if in their definition of what's allowed, whether you can have an electric assist bike, is it just that they're banning the throttle bikes on, on this infrastructure?

00:55:28:28 - 00:55:57:20
Chris Bruntlett
The short answer is yes. But the the long answer is it's always more complicated. I mean, one thing that we were told, was that really pedal assist bikes don't exist in China. And that was also quite a surprise. You know, there are certainly, people that are trying to push for their introduction, certainly as an alternative to the more passive, mopeds and scooters.

00:55:57:22 - 00:56:21:13
Chris Bruntlett
But it's one of those things that unless the government, decides to, that this is the direction they want to head, unless the manufacturing industry also decides that this is something that they want to do, because internal consumption really drives a lot of the policymaking process in China. That, that, for now, pedal bikes are going to remain very much, a fringe kind of thing.

00:56:21:13 - 00:56:42:00
Chris Bruntlett
I only saw maybe 3 or 4. My, my entire time there. But it doesn't mean that, they're not aware of the challenges that these mopeds and scooters, bring, but, it's always within the context of if those people aren't in cars, then that is, you know, a net plus to the city and society.

00:56:42:02 - 00:57:07:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. Because it doesn't matter if you have, if you've transferred the fleet, you know, from internal combustion engines over to electric engines, it's still a car. You know, the, the physics of of the damage that they can cause, as well as the, the realities of, of the congestion and the gridlock that they cause. The spatial side of it is, is still the challenge there.

00:57:07:25 - 00:57:28:10
John Simmerman
So a car is a car is a car. And if you're in a, a gridlock, you know, traffic jam of electric cars, it feels no different to you. Than if it was a, you know, a whole bunch of stinky petroleum based internal combustion engines. You're still stuck.

00:57:28:13 - 00:57:34:26
John Simmerman
So, I know you have a series of photos here. Walk us through what we're looking at now.

00:57:34:28 - 00:58:03:05
Chris Bruntlett
Well, this was, a nice little kind of, postscript to my, journey. And it was only about two weeks before I was scheduled to leave. When I got it. And random email from, a professor at Duke Kunshan University. And her name was Anamika van Dole. So you can imagine her, nationality. She was born and raised in Halton, but, was for the past 66 years a professor at this university.

00:58:03:08 - 00:58:35:13
Chris Bruntlett
And, well, she invited invited me, to come out to Kunshan. It's about 60km west of Shanghai. And, just, well meet with a variety of stakeholders. It's, very much a manufacturing hub. So they have giants and Shimano, located there. This prestigious university, which, has only recently opened in the last decade, which is, a collaboration between, of course, Duke University in, the United States and Wuhan University in China.

00:58:35:15 - 00:59:04:10
Chris Bruntlett
And, so I was lucky enough to travel there on the high speed train, of course, give a guest lecture to the students and, facilitate this roundtable discussion between local officials, the business community, they they, I think, put a lot of effort into establishing themselves as a cycling friendly city. There's huge competition in China right now to attract tourists, businesses, talent.

00:59:04:13 - 00:59:37:06
Chris Bruntlett
And so cycling, I think, has become one way that they can attract those, tourists and businesses, and set themselves apart from the pack. And, it was the morning that I was there that the municipality released this very flashy promotional video about the 100km of, slow routes. They called them. Or I would maybe, disagree a little bit with the, the phrasing or the, the branding there, but, you know, they're, they're actively trying to promote themselves as a cycling friendly destination.

00:59:37:08 - 01:00:09:22
Chris Bruntlett
And, well, yeah, I think, in general where they're headed very much in the right direction. And, and this is interestingly, an area where the manufacturer and industry, the production, and in the case of giants, you know, they're really putting a lot of time and effort and resources into stimulating cycling in China. That that Kunshan could be really kind of this, trailblazer in a lot of ways to, as it does, it builds out its cycling network.

01:00:09:25 - 01:00:29:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. And to bring us full circle, the you had mentioned that, you know, there you go. Looking about Austin a lot and sure enough, boom, there you go. You got the Austin slide up. There at the university. I will be sure to pass that message along to the folks here in, in the city of, of Austin for sure.

01:00:29:22 - 01:00:49:12
John Simmerman
That's that's always it's always fun when you see, you know, see that when you're from your quote unquote, adopted hometown that where I'm living now. Is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you want to leave the audience with about this experience, that you had in, in, China?

01:00:49:15 - 01:01:14:22
Chris Bruntlett
Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm now, you know, like I said, three weeks back and really still processing things in a lot of ways, feeling very much energized and inspired by, the storyline that we've we've already touched on, you know, this, this, course correction, this reversal in fortune from, a bike country to a car country, back to a bike country.

01:01:14:23 - 01:01:39:29
Chris Bruntlett
And, of course it matters, because China is the future in a lot of ways. It will have a billion people in their cities, by the end of the decade. And, as we see from the infrastructure they're building, they're really future proofing their cities and their society, and their country and investing heavily in, what are seen as public goods.

01:01:40:01 - 01:02:27:16
Chris Bruntlett
And I think that's, something a lot of countries could, could learn more from, including here in the Netherlands. So I'm kind of now, trying to facilitate some of these, future knowledge exchanges with an eye very much on what the countries can learn from each other. This isn't about exporting best practice from the Netherlands anymore, but what, could the Dutch municipalities, knowledge institutes, the railway company learn from, a country such as China and, well, I've gotten a positive response from, from both sides and even discussions about, a memorandum of understanding between, the Dutch government and the Chinese government.

01:02:27:16 - 01:02:55:06
Chris Bruntlett
We're working quietly, working behind the scenes on and trying to make that happen. So it's, yeah, I think, to refer to it as, paradigm shifting, journey would be, an understatement, but it was certainly eye opening. And, yeah, at the end of the day, you know, filled me with inspiration and, new enthusiasm for this topic.

01:02:55:08 - 01:03:11:00
Chris Bruntlett
At a moment where perhaps I thought I knew everything and had seen everything, and that, yeah, maybe there are countries out there that are doing it, a little bit differently, but maybe a little bit better than even this little cycling Paradise that is the Netherlands.

01:03:11:03 - 01:03:39:27
John Simmerman
So I'm a little bit of a transit, neophyte and luddite in the sense that I don't even know what makes maglev special. You to you put this, this folder together of images. You must have been like, I can see from your smile. You're pretty. Was pretty excited about experiencing this. What makes maglev, special compared to everything else that you saw over there in terms of the high speed rail and everything else?

01:03:39:29 - 01:04:10:10
Chris Bruntlett
Oh, gosh. Well, yeah, I'm far from a technical expert on this topic. But, it is, an interesting story. And, from what I understand, technology that was developed in the west of Germany, not far from, the Dutch border, in fact, and, an instance where. Yeah, I mean, instead of traditional rails and wheels, it's more, magnetic levitation where the train actually hovers.

01:04:10:12 - 01:04:12:18
John Simmerman
That's what it needs. Okay.

01:04:12:20 - 01:04:43:20
Chris Bruntlett
The train tracks, but, it is, that particular demonstration project between, Shanghai and its airport, was at one point the fastest train in the world and was, I think, at its peak was doing 100 and, sorry, 431km/h. On its short little journey from the city to the airport, they've since reduced the speed, to for, I think, energy saving purposes.

01:04:43:23 - 01:05:19:18
Chris Bruntlett
But, this is, a technology that. Yeah, I think has a lot of potential. I just had a friend come back from Japan, and they are building new maglev lines there. But, really kind of interesting to see technology that was developed in Europe have to go to China to find, a market, but, maybe another indication that, at the ambition there that, they're willing to experiment and try different things, and in this case, yeah, probably incredibly expensive, but, hopefully, a solution that can scale it across the country.

01:05:19:20 - 01:05:51:11
John Simmerman
And what's interesting to is, is, cycling through some more, cycling infrastructure, images here is that combination of balancing out between the high tech mobility modes and quote unquote, the low tech mobility modes, just like I wouldn't call it the slow mobility mode. Maybe it's not low tech, but I mean, you get what I'm saying is it's like it's it's the balance of being able to to use people powered infrastructure or surrounded by trees.

01:05:51:13 - 01:06:26:10
John Simmerman
And, you know, when you combine that with the ability that if you do need to go to a destination that's really, really far away, you can get on a high speed rail system. And like you said, be able to get between these two major, power centers, you know, economic hubs. But when your, your, your trips are shorter in duration and more, you know, people oriented, you know, more human sized in nature, you can get on a delightful, you know, cycle path and be able to get there.

01:06:26:10 - 01:06:49:19
John Simmerman
I think it's just a beautiful combination of being able to have that mobility option. And that's one of the things that I try to really emphasize these days, is that what we're talking about is not a war on cars. This is about creating the ability to have, mobility choice, authentic mobility choice, and breaking the cycle of card dependency.

01:06:49:21 - 01:07:16:22
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. And, of course we, it's not unlike the situation here in the Netherlands where, there are plenty of car fanatics and, and the rate of car ownership and car usage is actually quite similar to neighboring countries like the UK and Germany. But of course, they've they've carved out these, alternatives through the space that they've allocated through the, the budget that they've allocated, to provide people with choices.

01:07:16:23 - 01:07:40:10
Chris Bruntlett
And really, at the end of the day, it's true drivers that benefit because they have less traffic congestion and they're able to get from A to B, as is, probably more quickly than they would, if everybody was stuck in a car in front of them. So, yeah, it's, we're used to thinking in as a species and zero sum games and it's transactional.

01:07:40:13 - 01:08:09:22
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. And so if one mode of transportation is benefiting, we often think that others are being disadvantaged. But really, at the end of the day, the part of the story we're telling is that you can build a, a cycling Paradise, a train Paradise and a car Paradise. And no matter which mode of transportation you choose, you will ultimately benefit from the people that choose other modes of transportation because they're less likely to be in your way.

01:08:09:25 - 01:08:32:02
John Simmerman
Yeah. No, you and I and and and also with Melissa, we've had this discussion before about the, the necessity of creating safe and inviting infrastructure. We emphasize the fact that, you know, especially when you look at the five key categories that the Dutch Cycling Embassy has and identified for having successful network build out. You have to have, you know, these different features in there.

01:08:32:04 - 01:08:51:07
John Simmerman
One of the things that you know, obviously it needs to be convenient and and connected and be able to get you to, your destinations. One of the things that I love and the reason why I want to pause and end on this particular photo, is that I also am increasingly, you know, leaning into the fact that it also should be joyful.

01:08:51:14 - 01:09:12:04
John Simmerman
It should be something that really it should be a beautiful experience. And I know that you all have just, you know, you know, passing through, tulip season there in the Netherlands and, you know, being able to go for a ride, you know, and maybe go from village to village or city to city and, and go through some beautiful landscape.

01:09:12:06 - 01:09:53:14
John Simmerman
It really helps with habit formation when you're able to go, take a journey and feel like the journey is not just about getting from A to B as fast as possible, but there's also that element of joy that can be induced by being in a beautiful environment. And so when I see an image like this where you're passing through some greenery, some nature, but there's also some flowers planted, there's some, you know, some a pop of color, I have to think that there's a really good, thing that happens within our brains that that helps establish this as a joyful experience and therefore making habit formation that much more likely.

01:09:53:16 - 01:10:18:08
Chris Bruntlett
Yes. Very well said. And really, at the end of the day, it's, as we always say, you know, it's bigger than just getting from A to B, it's about our physical and mental well-being. And we can we know how to design cities that improve that. But, of course the, the car and its demand for monotony and asphalt, really takes away from that joyful experience.

01:10:18:10 - 01:10:48:14
Chris Bruntlett
So the more, these spaces that we can develop and design in the urban fabric so that people don't have to escape the city necessarily to have those moments of, of joy and restoration. And, and we will all be happier for it. And, yeah, I think something through a lot of the photos that folks have seen from the places I was able to visit in Beijing and Shanghai and Kunshan, the Chinese policymakers are very much thinking about this because they are an urban nation.

01:10:48:17 - 01:11:08:25
Chris Bruntlett
And, if you are going to live in a big city, you still these these, these, kinds of spaces that are specifically designed to allow you to unplug and decompress and, yeah, just experience, a nice, gentle moment of happiness and tastic.

01:11:08:28 - 01:11:31:01
John Simmerman
And again, Chris Bartlett with the Dutch cycling embassy. Always a joy having you on. And we're going to we're going to have you back here relatively soon to talk about the, the forthcoming book that's coming out, Women Changing Cities Global Stories of Urban Transformation. Chris, thank you so much for joining me today here on the Active Towns podcast.

01:11:31:01 - 01:11:33:15
John Simmerman
It's, again, always a joy to have you.

01:11:33:18 - 01:11:50:11
Chris Bruntlett
And thanks so much for this opportunity to share my experiences. And yeah, I hope, your listeners, your, your viewers are also intrigued, interested, you know, a lot of got a lot of great feedback on my social media posts and yeah, who knows, maybe this will be book number four.

01:11:50:13 - 01:11:58:19
John Simmerman
Don't pay. There you go again. Thank you so much, Chris. Oh, we'll, we're going to have you on very, very soon. To talk about the book.

01:11:58:23 - 01:12:00:16
Chris Bruntlett
Thanks again. Thank you. Looking forward to it.

01:12:00:17 - 01:12:16:10
John Simmerman
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01:12:16:12 - 01:12:34:08
John Simmerman
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01:12:34:10 - 01:12:55:00
John Simmerman
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01:12:55:01 - 01:13:12:21
John Simmerman
Cheers and again, just want to send a huge thank you to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting your channel financially via YouTube memberships YouTube super thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and joining my Patreon. Every little bit adds up and is very much appreciated. Thank you all so much!