Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:35:02
Tim Gill
Battle for city streets. And at its simplest, it's been a battle between the kind of forces of motor them and children, and that I know that battle has come and gone. And the big but the big battles happened in the 20s, I think, in the USA. And I'll talk about Peter Morton and, you know, an apostle has is still happening and we need we need it to be we need that battle to end and we need we need that war to end.

00:00:35:04 - 00:00:58:18
Tim Gill
And what would peace look like? And one of the things that I talk about is, is this project like this one. Now, I know that's quite a, it's a particular narrative, but but it's one I come back to. And it's not about a war on cars. It's a, it's a war. It's a four streets. It's a, it's a spatial war.

00:00:58:20 - 00:01:08:08
Tim Gill
And car and the forces of. Yeah. The forces of motor them on one side and I think children are on the other.

00:01:08:11 - 00:01:21:21
John Simmerman
Yeah, I love it. I love it. Well, I love it. You just did my intro. Tim. That was fantastic. I love this Tim Gill, thank you so much. Welcome back to the Active Towns podcast. That was fantastic.

00:01:21:24 - 00:01:24:26
Tim Gill
I'm very happy to be here. John.

00:01:24:28 - 00:01:37:03
John Simmerman
Tim, I love giving my guests just this opportunity to, introduce themselves. So I'm going to turn the tables over to you for just about 30s, really quickly, who is Tim Gill?

00:01:37:06 - 00:02:09:17
Tim Gill
Right. So I'm an independent researcher and writer and as, ardent followers of your, channels know, I have written on children and, their freedoms and their freedom to play out and get around my neighborhoods. And, the crucial role of neighborhood design, town design, cities, on children's lives. And I remain deeply focused on how we can make towns and cities work better for children and young people.

00:02:09:17 - 00:02:30:03
John Simmerman
Yes, yes. And, and I do say welcome back because you have been on before and you alluded to the fact that you, were part of, one of my earlier seasons. We are wrapping up season nine. I didn't know I don't know if you knew this or not, but this is the final episode for season nine, episode 300.

00:02:30:06 - 00:03:05:15
John Simmerman
But you were on a previous episode where we talked about your book because you've mentioned that you are a published author, writing on these issues of, childhood safety, childhood independence, and, trying to reintegrate the ability for children to actually live vibrant, thriving, independent lives. You know, for for those who are not familiar with this particular text, this particular book, what's what's your overview of what this is all about?

00:03:05:18 - 00:03:31:29
Tim Gill
Right. So the book is my aim is to elevate the status of children in urban planning and design, to say that, you know, how how we design cities has a really big impact on children's lives for good or sadly, more often for ill? And that has, that that far too many towns and cities are not designed with children in mind.

00:03:32:02 - 00:04:17:21
Tim Gill
And as a result, children's, freedom to get around their opportunity to play out their general health and well-being, or, badly affected and turning that around if we want to make cities better places, not just for children, but for everyone. If you want to make them more walkable, greener, less polluted. And then one really powerful way to do that is to bring children into the conversation about cities, to literally and figuratively put them in the picture, because that helps us focus on what, you know, in the collective best interests of, of of all of us.

00:04:17:23 - 00:04:39:11
Tim Gill
And it also helps us focus on the long term, because we can't help but think about the future when we think about kids. And it helps to overcome some of these, short term and often narrow vested interests that stop us from, taking the action is needed to make cities work better for everyone.

00:04:39:13 - 00:05:07:13
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And we have on screen here, some young chap from a few years ago, a way back in season three, episode number 106. So be sure to include, the links to that episode. And here's the video version, as well as the, the audio only version of that episode. So yeah, I always love bringing guests back on if you've been on before, because that gives us an opportunity to catch up.

00:05:07:15 - 00:05:31:04
John Simmerman
And and we have seen each other since, we recorded that particular episode because I got to, meet up with you personally in person. Last year, last summer, when I was in the London area and you were gracious enough to serve as my host, my homestay host, very much in your your local village. But, why don't you bring us up to speed?

00:05:31:04 - 00:05:43:09
John Simmerman
What has happened in the intervening time since that first episode when we, when we first brought urban playgrounds to the the world?

00:05:43:12 - 00:06:26:03
Tim Gill
Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to have you, John. And thank you for that. Q I, I guess, I mean, the book has been well received, and there is, I think, growing interest in this idea of of the, importance and the power of seeing cities through children's eyes, if you like. And there are a bunch of people who, who, some of them, you know, and, cities, beginning to talk more and get more active about, greening their neighborhoods, thinking about playgrounds, children's mobility, school streets.

00:06:26:05 - 00:06:52:01
Tim Gill
But for me, it's not going far enough or fast enough. And I think if you took a, you know, helicopter view, in many cities, things are getting worse. So there are examples of good things happening. I'd like to take some credit for some of them, but by and large, the picture is not good. And and I'm trying to figure out why that is the case.

00:06:52:01 - 00:07:38:07
Tim Gill
And I keep on coming back to the the big problem. You know, the big one ton elephant in this room is the car. It's it's an in particular kind of car centric systems that in different ways and at different levels, normalize the way that we might or not just the way we think about neighborhoods and streets and parks, but the way we think about safety, about who has the kind of right of, you know, the claim on city budgets, on the legal systems, on how we educate, children and drivers, all of that, that big picture, I think of it as a kind of car capture.

00:07:38:10 - 00:08:01:01
Tim Gill
And it is I cannot overemphasize it's a system problem. This is not about demonizing individual drivers. It's about looking back and and seeing 100 years of the normalization of a kind of car focus. And yeah, we need to to really open up that historical perspective, I think.

00:08:01:04 - 00:08:47:21
John Simmerman
Yeah. And speaking of historical perspectives, you know, that I've had, Peter Norton on multiple times here on the channel. I think he's up to 3 or 4 times already. And I always look forward to bringing him back to have, further discussions, because he's probably the foremost historian really looking at these, these issues. And, and similar to what we see on screen here, which is, I'm not sure what year this particular clipping came out of, but, I mean, this is really indicative of the historical perspective that as the automobiles came into our streets and became the interlopers taking over our streets, there were tensions and there were issues, and, there was a

00:08:47:21 - 00:09:15:01
John Simmerman
resistance. We we all know about the 1970s resistance against the automobile and child deaths, through the stop the kinder, more movement in the Netherlands. And that became famous, infamous. There were other things at play that were happening also in the, in the 70s, that also influenced the fact that that particular country decided to shift gears and move in a different direction somewhat.

00:09:15:03 - 00:09:48:04
John Simmerman
It's not a perfect situation over there, but, for the most part it got better, whereas many other nations really struggled and really leaned into accepting and adopting the automobile as the way of life. And then the unfortunate result is, as you had pointed out in your introduction, and is that. Many of us specifically children, are really suffering in this, exchange that took place.

00:09:48:07 - 00:10:19:07
Tim Gill
Right. And and Peter Naughton has been a huge influence on my, thinking and and what what he lays bare beautifully in his work is the kind of origins of this way of framing almost everything about the places where we live. And the what he shows is that within a pretty short period in the early 1920s, the way of thinking about urban streets flipped from being places where all sorts of things happened.

00:10:19:07 - 00:10:42:28
Tim Gill
Children played, people walked, street cars went through, and and that, that. And there was a kind of messy, fairness. I mean, it wasn't perfect, but it was, you know, there was a kind of equality or a sense of, of shared space that flipped in about five years to being streets of a cars. Everybody else's job was to get out of the way.

00:10:43:01 - 00:11:30:03
Tim Gill
And that was absolutely embedded in in laws, in policies, in the way, towns and cities and, and the entire country's, planned neighborhoods and that settlement, the terms of trade, if you like, in, in streets, first of all, in the USA and then pretty much everywhere. Go back to that. And crucially, the thing about safety and that, you know, cars had the claim on driving through streets and everybody else's job was to get out of the way, and there are a few glimpses of a different future, and you're showing one now with the rapid and, new Jersey, you know, but it that's a very interesting image that you can see that

00:11:30:10 - 00:11:57:02
Tim Gill
the town for the motorway. So what Radburn tried to do was come up with a design that kind of took the cars out of the picture, you know, that that where you could own a car, but the places where cars went, the streets where cars went was separated from the street where children played and, you know, and, and, and that there's something in that model.

00:11:57:02 - 00:12:29:16
Tim Gill
I mean, it kind of failed, because it's very difficult once you once you embed cars in people's everyday lives, then, they want the cars where they're convenient. So there's a whole big thing about parking. And, you know, the relationship between the houses where we live in and where our cars get past that. The Radburn model didn't really solve, I think, properly, but what that does speak to is a recognition, really, that cars and kids aren't compatible.

00:12:29:17 - 00:12:59:02
Tim Gill
The that cars are very dangerous objects to have around children out of doors, and we still, I think, trying to figure out different ways of coming to terms with that fundamental conflict. And yeah, this next image that you're showing up is, is kind of a personal one in a way, because, on the right you can see literally the view from my front door, not not the house you stayed in, not my current house, but it's my previous house.

00:12:59:04 - 00:13:17:27
Tim Gill
And it's a very, very common image for, people living in the UK, in Los Fast. But I know, I know in the USA might look a little bit different, but the general sense is you step out of your door, what's the first thing that you see and hear and are aware of? It's cars, parked cars and moving cars.

00:13:18:00 - 00:13:43:03
Tim Gill
And then the other image that you can just see in this is this pair of images, is that very rare thing, a car free street. This is a home zone. In fact, in Leeds, another, English city where, the actually cars are allowed in that street, but the terms of trade are flipped. And in that street, you don't see parked cars.

00:13:43:03 - 00:14:28:18
Tim Gill
Cars have to drive very slowly, and the kind of pedestrian has them has the priority, if you like. So, what this reminds us of is that we said, you know, if we want children to be able to gradually venture out as they grow up to literally and figuratively set foot beyond their homes into the neighborhoods around them, we really need to think about what they encounter when they step out of their door, and why is it that for so many families, in so many homes around the world, what they encounter is, is an environment that's dominated by heavy metal objects that they then have to immediately learn how to keep themselves safe from.

00:14:28:21 - 00:14:43:23
Tim Gill
And and that's what is one way of framing this problem. Why is it that that these. Dangerous objects are placed so centrally in the habitats that we're creating for the young of our species.

00:14:43:25 - 00:15:10:25
John Simmerman
Right. Yeah. You said a few things there that are worth diving a little bit deeper into. And, and for many people who might be tuning in either listening to this on the audio only podcast feed or tuning into this on YouTube and seeing the video or Patreon. For many people, they might be thinking, oh, childhood safety, what you really are saying is that, oh, this is dangerous out there in the real world.

00:15:10:27 - 00:15:44:24
John Simmerman
We need to wrap them in bubble, wrap them and protect them from this. You're not really saying that. You're saying the reverse. We need to be addressing the fact that we have allowed our environment to become dangerous. That's what we need to address. We don't need to be isolating our children and or, you know, protecting them continuously because that's kind of in conflict with what you just said is we need to be able to create an environment where the kids can venture out and and have independence.

00:15:44:27 - 00:16:14:29
Tim Gill
Right. But this is it's really hard. It's because actually, parents know that they can't afford to just let their kids out of, you know, and there is a real challenge there for parents and as children grow up for children and that the on the one hand, we absolutely do want to allow our children to grow up and gradually expand their horizons.

00:16:15:01 - 00:16:36:13
Tim Gill
And cars are an obstacle to that, to that. But that's not going to go away anytime soon. So so there's the immediate problem for parents. And it's a tough one. And I don't underestimate it. And I don't I don't want people, you know, our audience to think I'm, scaring people. Unnecessary. But I also don't want people to think, oh, I'm going to say, yeah, there's a quick fix here.

00:16:36:19 - 00:17:09:03
Tim Gill
There isn't a quick fix. And one of the things that I think we need to start figuring out is how we get back to a different frame for thinking about safety and neighbors. And the frame is, yeah, as you've hinted, the frame is, the the children deserve the right should have the right to be safe from the harm from cars when they go out of their homes.

00:17:09:06 - 00:17:34:22
Tim Gill
And that should be the baseline. And at the moment, that is not the baseline. And it's going to take a while to fix that. So how do we start to get at least going in the right direction? We don't go in the right direction by just keeping kids in doors or trying to drill them into, navigating this world that's got traffic danger in it.

00:17:34:24 - 00:18:09:29
Tim Gill
And, and that's again, an insight that we get from history is, is that actually, by and large, what has happened is that these children have lost freedom. Children have, over generations, been been, you know, effectively, it's an emotive phrase, but almost in a kind of imprisonment in their own homes and, and, and, and again, you're, you're showing the visual here of the maps, the kind of shrinking of children's horizons over successive generations.

00:18:09:29 - 00:19:00:14
Tim Gill
It's it's an image I use a lot in my talks. Actually goes back to, the researcher and former GP Bill bird, William Bird, who, who was very concerned about the health impact of this sort of loss of freedom in childhood and yes, childhood is is complicated. There are lots of social forces that shape children's lives. But one of them, surely, we would agree, is, is the growth of traffic and traffic danger and that, you know, the, the there's a kind of fundamental unfairness about the current situation, which is that, yeah, we're putting all the onus on children and parents to deal with traffic danger, and nowhere near enough responsibility on the systems

00:19:00:14 - 00:19:04:12
Tim Gill
that have led us to create these environments in the first place.

00:19:04:15 - 00:19:39:19
John Simmerman
You know, I think that this is just an absolutely beautiful, image. And I've used it several times, you know, since our very first, episode that we recorded it back in season three because it is such a, an illustrative, graphic, an image that is so powerful when you see that, you know, the son of, you know, this, this particular, this particular, mother, you know, said that, you know, she was able, in 1979 to be able to walk about a half mile.

00:19:39:21 - 00:19:57:25
John Simmerman
The grandparent was able to walk a mile. The great grandfather was able to have a range of about six miles of being able to get out. But the sun is, like, literally 300m to the end of the street in 2007. That's a powerful message to send.

00:19:57:27 - 00:20:32:09
Tim Gill
I've just to make the point that actually many eight year olds aren't really allowed the on the shadow of their own homes. Exactly. When I use that word imprisonment or prisoners. In one sense, it's literal. You know, the many children today, have effectively become consigned to their own dwellings in a way that, you know, and and with all sorts of, you know, kind of quite predictable but tragic consequences for, for they, well, health and well-being, but also just for their quality of life in the here and now.

00:20:32:12 - 00:20:59:01
John Simmerman
I want to address one of the other gorillas in the room, which is one of the the narratives that are also sort of out there on the minds of parents. And because the of the media and the way that they play up events is to point out that, yes, there is that concept of stranger danger and, you know, child child abductions and things of that nature.

00:20:59:01 - 00:21:19:20
John Simmerman
And I always like to try to get ahead of that, that, that ball rolling, and basically say yes. And when you really look at the statistics, it's no different than it was way back in 1919. And so it's, you know, that is yes, it is a fear. And you, you have to be empathetic with the fact that that is a concern.

00:21:19:20 - 00:21:43:14
John Simmerman
But at the same time, to your point, the real danger and the real reason and the cause for this shrinkage of independence for kids is the danger posed by cars. Is there anything else that you'd like to add to that? Before I shift gears and talk about another group of people that I think is experiencing the same level of imprisonment?

00:21:43:16 - 00:21:44:04
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:21:44:06 - 00:22:10:06
Tim Gill
I mean, only just to say you're absolutely right. I mean, sometimes I feel numbers don't always help, but I think one of the things that that maybe will help with, you know, because that that that's clearly a fear in some people is some do it and it's a sense of that the, the, the boogeyman, you know, predatory figure in the neighborhood has almost become the embodiment of our fears, right?

00:22:10:07 - 00:22:34:13
Tim Gill
It's like it's like a fairy tale of what's happening. And and, and, and fairy tales have a grain of truth in them often, you know, myths have a grain of truth in them. But any reasonable, you know, rational assessment of where the danger lies in neighborhoods will be, I think will well, may make it clear where we really need to be focusing our attention.

00:22:34:13 - 00:23:00:00
Tim Gill
And also the, the, you know, that that kind of wider loss of connection with the world outside our front doors is, is something that is happening for adults. And, and it's and that's, you know, I'm not talking about an issue of romantic connection with nature here. I'm just talking about, the sense of the world beyond our homes is, is is reasonably benign.

00:23:00:02 - 00:23:08:06
Tim Gill
And it's it's it's a place that we, you know, we want to nurture our children's connection with, not terrify them about.

00:23:08:08 - 00:23:36:27
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And you just mentioned adults as well. And that's exactly the direction that I wanted to go with this is, is talking about the fact that I can see parallels to the this shrinking amount of, of real estate in which we can roam, for certain adults, and, and, and specifically the elderly, after they've lost their ability to drive, their world shrinks a tremendous amount.

00:23:36:27 - 00:23:59:29
John Simmerman
If they're in an environment that isn't safe for them to get around in an automobile. And then also the non drivers, people who have never or have recently lost the ability to drive for whatever reason, they also have a shrinking amount of space of real estate, of geography that they can, be able to get to.

00:23:59:29 - 00:24:27:20
John Simmerman
That sense of independence has really shrunk. I recently had, Isabelle Clément from, wheels for wellbeing there in London on, talking about, you know, the disabled community and how having safe and inviting streets that encourage people to be all ages and abilities, to be able to walk and bike and roll and stroll and be able to get around their community is so empowering for the disabled population as well.

00:24:27:23 - 00:24:41:27
John Simmerman
So I see parallels. We're primarily talking about children here, but children are a proxy because if it's a safe and inviting environment for children, more than likely it's going to be a safe and inviting environment for all ages and abilities.

00:24:42:00 - 00:25:13:20
Tim Gill
Yeah. Right. And and yes, I'm I'm partly we we do need to talk about things like public transit and giving those choices a choices for, people, including children. But those other groups you mentioned who who can't or don't, drive. But I would also just add, I mean, I don't want to get into a kind of, any, any sort of, competition for people's sentiments or support, but but children are, you know, 20, 25% of most populations.

00:25:13:23 - 00:25:46:00
Tim Gill
And crucially, they have no vote. They have no voice. Unlike other sections of of society that do at least well, in democratic countries, anyway, have some ability to get their views and voices heard. Children do not. So more than any other group, children need the grown ups, the grown ups in the room to recognize and respond to and make life better and and take that responsibility for making children's lives better.

00:25:46:02 - 00:26:09:28
John Simmerman
Yeah, that's a really, really good point. Ahead and as I it's on, to talk about her new book, regarding non drivers and when driving is not an option. And through the research that she has been, involved with, you know, determining that as much as 30 to 40% of any city's given population are actually non drivers.

00:26:10:00 - 00:26:46:00
John Simmerman
And so, and that includes the children who don't have the power of, of the ballot box and being able to, to vote. But it's oftentimes very surprising and astounding for the driving public to, to realize that, that there's that that population, especially city leaders, to realize that, oh, you mean 30 to 40% are quote unquote non drivers, you know, and many of them not even having access to an automobile, maybe, for a variety of different reasons, including poverty levels and socio economic status and all that sort of stuff.

00:26:46:00 - 00:27:09:00
John Simmerman
So yeah, excellent point. I want to pull I want to pull up this overhead, illustration that you passed along to us and dive deeper into this modern child's conundrum, which I think is, is, connected to that previous overhead map that we, we looked at. But let's let's talk a little bit more deeply about this particular conundrum.

00:27:09:02 - 00:27:29:16
John Simmerman
It it doesn't it doesn't scream that it is North America, but it could certainly be anywhere USA as well as anywhere modern communities, especially suburban context around the globe. I could totally see this being in Australia, New Zealand, as well as in Europe as well.

00:27:29:19 - 00:27:57:10
Tim Gill
Yeah, yeah. And, and plenty of, housing estates in the UK as well. And, and what, what, what this image captures, I think, is that, so many neighborhoods, districts where, you know, where families live, it's really, really difficult for kids to get out and find places to hang out and play and even just to travel the smallest distance, be on their front doors.

00:27:57:12 - 00:28:49:16
Tim Gill
And it's it's not just the danger, if you like or the traffic danger is a part of the factor. It's about sprawl. It's about parking. It's about the kind of severance from traffic. It's about a lack of genuinely welcoming, convivial public spaces. It's also sometimes about adult attitudes, you know, and places where the are the laws or the that the people in charge just don't want kids there, especially teenagers who are really treated appallingly in a many in even in parts of the cities where, where, you know, there's a nominally idea that it's public, plenty of parks and shopping malls, teenagers are essentially labeled, you know, they're demonized and labeled as troublesome

00:28:49:16 - 00:29:17:23
Tim Gill
and pushed out. So, so that's I think, what I really like about this image, again, if it shows this is not just about individuals or, you know, the way we treat each other as individuals, it's about the systems. It's about the way neighborhoods get built. And those wider cultural and social values that then come out of, the physical environments that we live in.

00:29:17:25 - 00:29:44:06
John Simmerman
Yeah. You know, and I think there's, there's a part of this to that is. Yes. To, to your point, a little bit of it is the distances if we've sprawled things out and we have, created an environment where to get to that meaningful destination, including the, your school, if your child or, you know, or the, the park or a friend's house.

00:29:44:08 - 00:30:13:28
John Simmerman
The distances are, are so great, you know, compared to what it was like before when those distances were, were relatively, short, comparatively speaking. But the other part of it too, is that literally a big part of this is, is like the design factor that is encouraging. The motor vehicles that are present to travel at Greater speeds.

00:30:13:28 - 00:30:31:00
John Simmerman
And I, I look to this particular image that you passed along as like a feature of the, of designing of our streets, that when when you really look at this from an engineering perspective, you realize that this is designed for speed, right?

00:30:31:06 - 00:30:50:10
Tim Gill
So yes, this is actually this is in the village where I grew up. It's not the street where I grew up, although it could be. But what you can see here is how this this is a, you know, a cul de sac. It's a dead end street that comes off a slightly busier street. There's about 10 or 12 houses on this dead end street.

00:30:50:12 - 00:31:23:12
Tim Gill
And yet the way the road has been designed is to just make it really easy for cars to swing out of that main road into that side road. And, and as a result, the crossing distance for anyone trying to cross that tiny street, this is 16m. 16 yards when it could be so much less. And and every yard that we add, there is another yard that that makes it of course, takes longer for anyone to cross, and it encourages cars to to come round at speed.

00:31:23:12 - 00:31:51:28
Tim Gill
So that's a kind of microcosm of the design thinking that, gets played out in suburban and, and urban neighborhoods, around the world. And, and it's worth remembering in all of this that, you know, suburbs only came into existence because of the car. So, you know, now they're they're they're omnipresent. They're everywhere. I grew up in a suburb.

00:31:51:28 - 00:32:23:26
Tim Gill
I, I'm guessing you probably did, John. The vast majority of your audience will do, and yet it's a it's an entirely 20th century invention and would not have been possible without, the growth of of of the car as the predominant means of transport. And, and then it that's one of the ways in which things get normalized is we can barely imagine having a street that looks any different because it's been around for so long, and we've all grown up in those streets.

00:32:23:26 - 00:33:02:26
Tim Gill
And of course, that's the way it is. And yet, streets. What? And of course, people want to park their car outside their house because it's convenient. And, people worry that their cars might get hit or stolen or. And you say, hang on, time out. Could we use that space in a better way? Can we, you know, if we want kids to be outdoors and active and to meet with other kids, and maybe we want to, spend a bit of time with our neighbors who we share, our town with.

00:33:02:29 - 00:33:29:02
Tim Gill
Do we really want the first space that we come out of when we step out of our front door to be to look like this, to be basically a racetrack with more cars parked on the edge of it. So, yeah, I don't know, John, if you can queue up, one of the other images that that I sent you, but this is, an, there's an aerial, an aerial view of, of a very different neighborhood.

00:33:29:02 - 00:33:50:21
Tim Gill
It's still suburban, if you can recognize it as being, you know, a kind of low density neighborhood. But it's in, in some neighborhoods that are being built, in the UK and in, in the US and other parts world, the space you come out of when you come out of your house isn't a space that's from an by cars.

00:33:50:24 - 00:34:18:09
Tim Gill
It's a green, welcoming, shared public space. And, thank you for that. That switch, and, you know, I think, by the way, this is a, a scheme that was designed by diner born at, and British architect to. I don't know if she's been on your show, John, but if she hasn't, she should be, because she's, really doing, great work, influencing housing and housing design.

00:34:18:09 - 00:34:59:14
Tim Gill
She also has a book that just came out, which is called All to Play For. She's very, very strong on the need to, really think about what it's like for children and families growing up in neighborhoods and, and doing a much better job in building new housing. So, yeah, that's, that's the one example of the kind of reframing and, that of bringing to bear a new or a different set of values when we think about what, houses, streets and neighborhoods can and maybe should look like.

00:34:59:16 - 00:35:21:19
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And I want to point out to, the viewers that are looking at this, particular image and try to describe it for the, the listening only audience. And I want to point out that this isn't a complete war on cars, and cars are not allowed. And we're not restricting your ability to own and operate a car.

00:35:21:21 - 00:35:50:12
John Simmerman
If you look very, very closely, you can see that. Oh, yeah, there's there's a garage right there. There's a BMW parked right, right in that spot right there. And so it's not like we've we're not restricting freedoms. We're not, banning cars per se. What we're trying to do is create an environment where people can have legitimate mobility options.

00:35:50:12 - 00:36:06:01
John Simmerman
We we're actually trying to create more freedom, not less. And, and really trying to embrace the concept that we don't have to just settle for automobiles overwhelming or public space in our realm.

00:36:06:01 - 00:36:06:10
Tim Gill
Right.

00:36:06:15 - 00:36:08:06
John Simmerman
So I just want to have that.

00:36:08:09 - 00:36:36:11
Tim Gill
Yeah. I mean, I sometimes talk about balance that, that the and again, you know, for, for the best part of 100 years, we've got the balance wrong and we've placed far too great a focus on car ownership and car movement. And so that, that needs that's what really needs to turn around and and, and you made some points earlier about, about, you know, the how children can you know.

00:36:36:13 - 00:36:59:19
Tim Gill
And we were talking about how children face barriers when they, they want to venture beyond the front doors or get around the neighborhood. There are still far too many children today who are dying on the streets in the USA, in the UK and in many other countries. So this is not just a kind of like sometimes it's uncomfortable for us to talk about child death.

00:36:59:19 - 00:37:24:15
Tim Gill
We you know, obviously it's it's it's it's a as a parent is the worst thing you could possibly contemplate. And I want to I want to acknowledge, you know, there'll be people in your audience who will have in different ways had had had some knowledge or experience or will know families who've lost children in and, or where children have died from, from traffic danger.

00:37:24:21 - 00:37:51:00
Tim Gill
And it's, it's, it's a 100 year problem in one sense. You know, the statistics would suggest that it's a problem that's being solved, but at what price? You know, it is very clear that far fewer children are dying on the streets in, the US, North America, Europe than was happening 20, 40 years ago. But at what cost?

00:37:51:02 - 00:38:11:19
Tim Gill
And by the way, I still think the numbers are too high, and and it is, you know, it really troubles me that in many areas of child safety, you know, we hear the phrase, you know, if we save one child's life, then that's worth doing that somehow we don't say that. You know, in in North America this year, sorry.

00:38:11:19 - 00:38:38:15
Tim Gill
In, in the USA this year, 350, 400 children will be killed by drivers walking around American streets. And a year after that and a year after that, and actually, some of the figures are suggesting that it's getting worse. That I think is a moral outrage. And, it should be an absolute priority that that gets turned around.

00:38:38:15 - 00:39:08:15
Tim Gill
And that is not the responsibility of individual children or individual parents. It is the responsibility of those who make the political choices and the the design and the planning and the land use and the legal and the educational choices that lead to those children dying. And actually, West Marshall, who, you know, whose book is right by my desk, killed by a traffic engineer, has a really tragic story about two, two teenage boys who died on the streets of Vancouver.

00:39:08:17 - 00:39:50:26
Tim Gill
And the commentary about those deaths effectively blamed the boys for that happening. They shouldn't have crossed where they did. They were wearing dark clothing. But but what West Marshall does brilliantly, and I've seen him talk on this is you zoom out and show that to those boys. All they were trying to do was get from their homes to somewhere else and and did the streets made it all but impossible for them to do that safely because of, you know, that, wide streets, fast traffic, lack of, of of sidewalks and crossings, and all of that is, you know, it's almost it's it's not predictable that those children on that occasion had that terrible

00:39:50:26 - 00:40:03:29
Tim Gill
tragedy, but it is predictable that over, a year, that's what's happened if we don't fix the systems and. Yeah. Yeah, that your next image is going to hit a topic. Yeah.

00:40:04:01 - 00:40:30:13
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I want to tie this particular image to what we were just talking about too, with, the, the childhood fatalities, you know, as pedestrians to point out that when we look at the data of the 40,000 plus, lives lost in the United States annually, and we will look at the number one cause of death and serious injuries of children.

00:40:30:16 - 00:41:00:21
John Simmerman
It's actually as occupants of motor vehicles, too. So there's a false sense of security that many parents have of saying, oh, it's so dangerous out there for our kids, you know, being outside of a car, walking and biking. Yes, that's true, but there's a false sense of security that putting them into their overly large, automobiles, especially the SUVs and large pickup trucks here in North America, is somehow going to be the safety that they they require.

00:41:00:23 - 00:41:26:23
John Simmerman
It's not. And that's kind of where this photo, gets to, is that we see this car bloat situation in the arms race that is taking place of that false sense of security, of having bigger and bigger and bigger, larger and larger vehicles. Because what kind of goes with that is the mass goes up, the violence of the crashes go up, the false sense of security, the speeds go up.

00:41:26:25 - 00:41:52:28
John Simmerman
And that and that's part of the risk compensation theory that happens when we have more safety, you know, mechanisms on cars. We as humans, we drive faster and more aggressively. And so I wanted to hone in on that as we look at this particular image, which really hones in on the car bloat situation, because we have this cute little mini that is like this tiny little thing from years gone by.

00:41:52:28 - 00:42:02:29
John Simmerman
I don't know what year this was. And then surrounded by these very large, SUVs, which are still quite small from us standards.

00:42:03:01 - 00:42:24:26
Tim Gill
Right? Yeah. This is actually this is my this is my photo. I was walking through a London street into all this. And, you know, the mini was was the most popular car in the UK for decades. I mean, it really was like, yes, it was. Of course, the name tells you it was. It was designed as a, a small, you know, and, and affordable and all of that.

00:42:24:29 - 00:42:47:17
Tim Gill
It was just like a toy in this, in this photo. And, and I know and I'm sure you'll have discussed this, that in the US, and we're seeing this in the UK as well. Clear evidence of greater deaths on the roads from, from SUVs and, that that's now in a long term, you know, we need to fix that.

00:42:47:17 - 00:43:04:05
Tim Gill
We need to fix it over the long term by looking at regulations for cars. You know, the this is the point where I want to remind your audience and of course, you know that. How do it how do we get this reframing? I think one of the ways to get the reframe is to say the car is a consumer product, right?

00:43:04:05 - 00:43:24:23
Tim Gill
It's a it's something that we buy because it makes our life or we think it makes our life better and easier, and we can do stuff that we didn't use to be able to do or do more quickly or conveniently. It's a consumer product, and yet it is a consumer product that in ordinary use, leads to tens of thousands of deaths every year.

00:43:24:26 - 00:43:54:18
Tim Gill
Now, in any other consumer product that would be that would be game over. And that's and one way, another way of trying maybe to get a handle on the degree to which we normalized a car centric world, that how can it be that we've we've landed? And not only that, but the consumer products that we're now buying and that the car manufacturers are selling are more dangerous and are leading to more deaths.

00:43:54:20 - 00:44:18:13
Tim Gill
That that is to me, it's crazy and has to change now. And I mean, I'm watching with interest, you know, what's happening in some cities that are trying to tackle that. So, I, you know, Paris is one city that's looking, I think, and maybe it has brought into place some measures to try and discourage, large, heavy SUVs.

00:44:18:20 - 00:44:53:05
Tim Gill
It's being talked about, here in the UK. And it and, you know, it it has it has to happen if we want to create places where we turn around the terrible trends in children's lives that we've seen for the last ten, 20, 40, 50 years. Yeah. And I and I know you're and you know, you come from a health background, John, and you'll know all of those stats about about obesity and inactivity, but also mental health problems.

00:44:53:09 - 00:45:16:04
Tim Gill
Now, those are complex problems, but it doesn't it doesn't take much to see the one of the causes of those problems is that children are spending far too much of their time indoors, isolated, sitting down. And they don't want to they want to be out. They want to see their friends. They want to play. And it's the environment that's a big factor in stopping them from doing that.

00:45:16:06 - 00:45:53:01
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. From an epidemiological, perspective, we are far more effective as a society of getting more people out of their off their couch and out their doors and active, and engaging, walking, biking, doing things than creating a situation, an environment where they're cloistered in feeling like their only thing that is safe is for them to stay indoors and stay in their house and then get into an automobile and drive to their their workout facility, their gym and do work out there.

00:45:53:01 - 00:46:22:04
John Simmerman
It's far more effective for us to create and transform our built environment into people oriented places. And that's where I want to shift gears and talk about, because it's sounding awfully depressing here, Tim. We're like focusing in on death and all of this and and blow to automobiles and and it's like, I can understand where especially with parents are like, well, hey, both both Tim and John said that this is a war out there on our streets.

00:46:22:04 - 00:47:02:05
John Simmerman
And if it's going to be a war, I want to make sure I go into war with the the most, armored equipment I can get. And therefore I'm going to I'm going to buy into that consumer product that is going to be the safest for my family. And so that escalating arms race of larger and larger vehicles, I want to reframe this, and I want to get to something that's a little bit more positive and right in your neighborhood, you guys have a wonderful example of the fact that you can transform streets, you can transform villages, and you can transform the environment into much more people oriented places.

00:47:02:07 - 00:47:21:06
John Simmerman
And so you don't you don't know that I'm going to show this. And so, and you I don't even know if you've see this, but I want to show this video here of me rolling down Orford Street. Talk a little bit about the story that is the success story of this, this particular street. Go take that way too.

00:47:21:08 - 00:47:46:15
Tim Gill
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, this is this is pretty much my neighborhood. And what you're looking at, this is the Mini Holland scheme in Walthamstow. As its name implies, it's trying to create a kind of Dutch style, walking and bike friendly neighborhood. And reduce the dominance of the car. And and it was, unusually. And it was large scale.

00:47:46:15 - 00:48:25:26
Tim Gill
So it's a whole neighborhood. It was ambitious. It it effectively created, I think a district or an area where you couldn't cut through that neighborhood at all in the car. You could still get to anywhere you wanted to get to, pretty much in a car, but you couldn't go through it. And there was there were lots of, you know, traffic measures that, stopped cars from driving into streets or slowed him down and in some cases actually created a kind of pedestrianized street.

00:48:25:28 - 00:48:50:21
Tim Gill
And it was, at the time it was being brought in, immensely controversial. And, and, I mean, there was a point where, you know, pubs and bars in my neighborhood had a sign up saying, do not talk about merely how a mini Holland we don't want to know, you know, it was it was it was really kind of creating great conflict.

00:48:50:23 - 00:49:21:17
Tim Gill
Now, it's it's, valued. It's accepted. It's it's a place, you know, this street in particular, Orford Road is the kind of place where you come out on a sunny afternoon or evening, and there's chair, you know, tables and, and coffee, bars selling, you know, their wares to passers by. I feel almost like it's like a kind of, you know, Mediterranean style, holiday destination.

00:49:21:17 - 00:49:57:12
Tim Gill
I'm not, I'm not I'm not really exaggerating. It's very convivial now. So the short version of the story here is, is that it's a, it's a chunk of the city where that there was a radical reprioritization away from cars and in favor of biking and walking and that that has been shown to, lead to lower pollution, more people on foot, greater footfall, and people just being, you know, more happy about the neighborhood that they live in.

00:49:57:14 - 00:50:19:26
Tim Gill
And so it's pretty it's, it's a, it's a kind of proof of concept. And I can't claim any personal credit for it particularly. I mean, I've been a flag waver. But I wasn't closely involved. But I think it's, it's it's a large scale demonstration of how things can be different. And, it's something that you can show to decision makers and say, look, this is this is what it looks like.

00:50:20:00 - 00:50:44:18
Tim Gill
This is what a kind of piece, you know, talk about the kind of war that, you know, this battle between children and others and, and, and the forces of motor them. And this is what piece. Well, one example of what a piece in that battle looks like. And I and I, you know, I celebrate it. So, yeah, that's that's the Waltham Forest mini Holland.

00:50:44:21 - 00:51:12:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. And you mentioned that there was a great deal of controversy in, in and push back and fight against something like this happening. And we do see this, around the globe, you know, of pushback against change. And we have to be empathetic to the fact that, yes, change is difficult. Change is is hard for people to understand and grasp if they've been used to something for many, many decades.

00:51:12:09 - 00:51:40:05
John Simmerman
Being one way, especially just getting in my car, driving everywhere for everything. And so this could be threatening. But it is clearly a success. You see this young tyke on, on the bike, you know, balanced bike rolling by and and others on little push scooters and strolling by. I went to this environment every single night, that I stayed at your place because it kept drawing me back.

00:51:40:05 - 00:51:54:29
John Simmerman
I wanted to be there. I wanted to take my dinners there and relax and just embrace this environment. And so in my mind, this is a huge success. And I get the sense that it's a huge success in the eyes of these business owners as well.

00:51:55:01 - 00:52:24:07
Tim Gill
Yes it is. I think just a couple of, points. Yes, the reframing is really important. And, and the recognition that some people, you know, do lose out when we try and reprioritize, and move away from the car. And, and actually, one of the things that I hope we will do well in future is to figure out is to better respond to those people in that genuine and legitimate concerns.

00:52:24:12 - 00:52:48:01
Tim Gill
Maybe their own business is very car dependent. Maybe, you know, that they have personal circumstances that mean they really need to, to have access to a car. And, you know, and I think that's that, that that's important to say that not everybody who is opposed to these measures is a bad actor. There is a lot of bad acting going on, you know, and there's a lot of scaremongering.

00:52:48:03 - 00:53:31:15
Tim Gill
But let's let's figure out how we can get that settlement to work. Well, for as many people as possible. I am also clear that there will always be people who will feel upset and loss. If there was a quick, cheap, easy way to make everywhere better for everybody, we'd all have done it by now, right? There are trade offs and and the other thing to say about, these sorts of measures and it is important to recognize is that, you know, there can be some tricky long term side effects, you know, around gentrification, around house prices, around, you know, people feeling that their neighborhood won't be the top of the pile or next on

00:53:31:15 - 00:53:54:09
Tim Gill
the list. So I think those questions about equity, and the kind of longer term, especially in the, in the UK, we have, I think, a lot of suburbs where it wouldn't be so easy to move away from the car because there isn't good public transport in London. In my part of London, in many parts of London, public transport is pretty good.

00:53:54:11 - 00:54:28:13
Tim Gill
So there are alternatives. What do you do in neighborhoods where there aren't alternatives? Okay. One thing we do is we make sure all the new neighborhoods that we're building look different. And I'm, you know, really keen on. And I'm actively involved in some of those. But I think another thing we do is we we can start where people are and figure out how those suburban contexts, you know, we, we can, maybe make some, some smaller steps and, and bring people with us to a degree.

00:54:28:15 - 00:54:55:13
Tim Gill
But but in other contexts, you know, we do have to and I admire the politicians for doing this here in Waltham Forest. We have to be prepared for a bit of a battle and for a backlash and for, you know, some, some, some bumps in the road before we get to the point where we can show people that these changes are worthwhile and, and, and, and have a really strong positive impact.

00:54:55:15 - 00:55:22:01
John Simmerman
Yeah. And, you know, address concerns like if a business has concerns of how will I take my deliveries of my, my goods and services. And here's a great example of you creating management system in place so that, yeah, there's a time of the day that those deliveries do take place. And we also saw that there was parking, of cars available in the earlier sections of it.

00:55:22:04 - 00:55:40:09
John Simmerman
And so this particular stretch of the, the quote unquote, car free zone is a very, very short zone. And to add to that, I don't know if we had a I don't know if I had a clip in there or not of the bus coming through. There's frequent bus service that comes through one way down that street.

00:55:40:15 - 00:56:17:21
John Simmerman
And so it was it was really fascinating to me, the fact that it wasn't a completely motor vehicle free zone. It was just calmed and tamed to the point where clearly the people just took over the space, especially in the evening time. They're when the families are out and the businesses are thriving and there's people sitting about and you see people in wheelchairs going by, you see kids on scooters and razors and bicycles and and I think that it bears repeating that this is not a war on cars.

00:56:17:23 - 00:56:33:04
John Simmerman
We're just talking about creating what you the word that you used earlier, which is balance and creating is the word that I used earlier is mobility choice and freedom. We're just trying to re establish some sense of balance.

00:56:33:06 - 00:56:57:13
Tim Gill
Yeah. And I think one of the things that the minute Holden shows you is that he's getting to our point way where you really do see yeah. People biking, children scooting and that level of freedom and, and the visibility of children getting to that point is hard. And we need to push harder than we have been doing to get those results.

00:56:57:20 - 00:57:30:19
Tim Gill
You know, that that, that cars, the car dominated streets. You know, it's not just enough to, to slow the traffic or to take out a few parked cars. It needs to be it needs to be more radical than that. And, you know, that's a that's that is a challenge. But of course, you and I know, and transport farmers all know that, yes, it cost money, but we're spending a huge amount of money right now, on building vast highways, including in urban areas.

00:57:30:21 - 00:57:39:23
Tim Gill
That, that have, I think, been. Yeah, continue to get a free pass compared to the kind of measures that you and I want to talk about. Yeah.

00:57:39:23 - 00:58:06:18
John Simmerman
I point out that, yes, it does cost some money, as you just mentioned, but it's nowhere near as expensive as what we're doing for car infrastructure. And the return on investment is so much greater. We know that creating people oriented places that really embrace all ages and abilities has a return on investment that's far greater than what you will see on any expansion of any motorways and adding lanes.

00:58:06:25 - 00:58:33:12
John Simmerman
Now, earlier you had mentioned, that you're working with the other thing because one thing is to transform our built environment as it exists, transform those streets into more, people oriented places like Orford Road, which we just used as an example. The second area that you mentioned is, okay, when we are building new communities, can we get it right from the first place and make it a more people oriented place?

00:58:33:13 - 00:58:35:22
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about Hartree here.

00:58:35:24 - 00:59:12:06
Tim Gill
Right. So yes, Hartree is a big new, or potentially a planned new district in Cambridge. So one thing's important. It's not London. It's not, you know, one of the big cities. It's a smaller city in the UK. Quite, traditionally, it's of course, very historic, but, you know, sprawling place. And this is, has the ambition of being, a high density, more or less car free district in that city, that where the whole story is around, making it a great place for children and families.

00:59:12:09 - 00:59:36:08
Tim Gill
Now it's in the early stages. Why now? It hasn't even got through all of the planning processes. It will probably be, I don't know, 20 years before we can really look at how things go with Archie, but I'm really excited about it. I'm working with the developers town, which is a company that's done some other great child, friendly development.

00:59:36:10 - 01:00:02:20
Tim Gill
There's government involvement. There's a lot of support behind behind this. And we've worked up a kind of a set of design indicators. So not just to kind of aspiration, but a set of practical tool that will help the developers who are building out this new chunk of the city that will help them get it right for children and families are looking at, where do we call the cars?

01:00:02:26 - 01:00:40:25
Tim Gill
How easy is it to step out of your front door and get to, an attractive, shared green space? How easy is it to get to your local school or to public transit? And those, so it's really trying to, to bake in this reframing that we've been talking about through this whole show and turn around, that instead of baking in car dependance, we're baking in, you know, play, children's by ability and a kind of rich community social life in tree.

01:00:40:25 - 01:00:49:10
Tim Gill
So that's the vision. Maybe get me back on the program in 10 or 20 years, and we'll be able to see how well, it's, it's been it's been realized.

01:00:49:12 - 01:01:14:20
John Simmerman
Well, hopefully it doesn't take that long. And we're seeing some, even in North America here. We're seeing some new developments taking place that are embracing the concept of being car light. I've profiled cul de sac. I've profiled indigo. These are two developments that, are really leaning into this concept of we don't need the automobile to be the central feature of how we design our communities.

01:01:14:26 - 01:01:30:24
John Simmerman
And so hopefully things will move along a little bit quicker. Because God knows we're building other communities that are car dependent much, much quicker, much faster. Tim, is there anything any final points that you'd like to make before we, part ways?

01:01:30:25 - 01:01:50:12
Tim Gill
Really? Yeah. I just want to quickly open up the this this is a global challenge. I, you know, in a way, we've been mainly thinking about kind of North American European audiences, but one, one sentence message I want to leave people with is, you know, we made a lot of mistakes in Europe and North America. And where where is the city building happening now?

01:01:50:12 - 01:02:23:20
Tim Gill
Where is the population growth? It's happening in low middle income countries. It's happening in, you know, in the Far East, in India, especially in Africa. So, you know, anybody who's watching this or listening to this, who, who has influence in, in those emerging economies and countries, please, please, please learn from the mistakes. Don't go down the car dependent, you know, route that we did for 100 years.

01:02:23:22 - 01:03:10:17
Tim Gill
Get that reframing, get that rethinking. I know there are big challenges in those parts of the world, but they're also incredible opportunities. And very young, vibrant populations. We can make the cities of tomorrow the big and emerging cities of tomorrow so much better. In Africa, in Asia, in South America, if we, get those lessons and get those conversations happening and, and tragically, right now in many of those parts of the world, the deaths of children in streets, at appallingly high levels, and, and that's what's, that's, that's what makes this really urgent for me is that we're seeing a, a potentially a repetition of the mistakes that we

01:03:10:17 - 01:03:48:15
Tim Gill
made, but also that really huge opportunity to have a massive impact. You know, on, on in the first place, just stopping that appalling. You know, it's a kind of it's a global pandemic that's hidden in plain sight that we've been seeing. And that has to stop. But what a future we could offer in those countries and contexts, if we can turn around that car oriented way of thinking and instead create cities that are genuinely walkable, green, welcoming, and child friendly, that's the vision I want to leave people with, not just in Europe and North America, but everywhere.

01:03:48:18 - 01:04:10:05
John Simmerman
Everywhere. Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned that too. And I'll, I'll refer folks to, episode number 297, where I was interviewing Cyprien or daughter Mitchell from Nairobi, Kenya. And we were talking about some of the things that they're doing there in Africa. Tim, this has been such a pleasure having you once again on the Active Towns podcast.

01:04:10:05 - 01:04:19:10
John Simmerman
Thank you so very, very much, for helping me close out season nine in episode 300. Again, Tim, thank you so very much.

01:04:19:12 - 01:04:21:21
Tim Gill
It's been an honor and a pleasure. Thanks, John.

01:04:21:23 - 01:04:37:02
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Tim Gill. And if you did, please hit give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribed to the channel again, just click on the subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

01:04:37:05 - 01:04:55:11
John Simmerman
And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Super easy to do. Just click on the join button right down below, as well as navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the page, and there's several different options, including making a donation to the nonprofit.

01:04:55:18 - 01:05:21:19
John Simmerman
You can buy me a coffee as well as become a Patreon supporter. Patrons do the early and add free access to all this content. Again, thank you so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And again, this concludes season nine. And, we'll be back with season ten, after the summer. So we're going to be taking a break from the podcast, and I'll be on the road traveling, via Amtrak across North America.

01:05:21:26 - 01:05:44:17
John Simmerman
And yes, I'll be producing content and getting that out to you, along the way. And if you'd like to support, my trip as I'm making my way around North America again, head on over to Active Town Star Org. Click on that support tab at the top of the page, and, I'll have special updates for all my supporters, along the way from the rails, from the road, so to speak.

01:05:44:17 - 01:06:07:29
John Simmerman
Again, thank you so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers. And again, just want to send a huge thank you to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel financially via YouTube memberships YouTube super thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and joining my Patreon, every little bit adds up and is very much appreciated.

01:06:08:04 - 01:06:09:16
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much!