Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:18:02
Tom Babin
I think the answer is what have we talked about before? It's like showing people that motonormativity is a thing and that there are there are alternatives and that there are viable alternatives to the automobile. And if we invest in transit, if we invest in pedestrian spaces, if we invest in cycling, it does pay off.

00:00:18:09 - 00:00:39:24
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Tom Babin with the YouTube channel Shifter. Super excited to be talking with Tom. One of the most requested, future guests here on the podcast. Before we dive into that, I just want to say, if you're enjoying this content here on the active Tom channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns ambassador.

00:00:39:26 - 00:01:01:10
John Simmerman
Super easy to do just navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the page, and there's several different options, including becoming a Patreon supporter. Patrons do get early and ad free access to all my video content. Okay, let's get right to it with Tom.

00:01:01:13 - 00:01:05:08
John Simmerman
Tom Babin, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:01:05:11 - 00:01:07:21
Tom Babin
Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to talking.

00:01:07:24 - 00:01:12:18
John Simmerman
Oh, I've been looking forward to this for some time. You and I have to have tried to do.

00:01:12:18 - 00:01:13:00
Tom Babin
This,

00:01:13:07 - 00:01:35:22
John Simmerman
Off and on over the past couple of years. And so I'm super, super stoked that we're able to do this. Really excited that this is in the winter time, too, for us to talk about, some of the cool stuff that, you have been working on over the past decade plus. But, Tom, before we kick in that all of that stuff, I love to start this off with, just giving you the floor for a second to introduce yourself.

00:01:36:00 - 00:01:39:07
John Simmerman
So who is Tom Babin?

00:01:39:09 - 00:02:06:22
Tom Babin
Sure. Well, thanks for having me. Yeah. So I live in, Canada. I'm in western Canada, in a city called Calgary. It's a mid-sized Canadian city. It's about a million people. And I have, spent a lot of time, talking about urban cycling and bike commuting. So I've got a YouTube channel called shifter that's focused on, you know, the bicycle as, transportation mode rather than, a tool for sports and racing.

00:02:06:29 - 00:02:25:18
Tom Babin
It's just about getting around on your bike because I'm Canadian. I also think about winter a lot. And this is the 10th anniversary of the publication of my book called Frost Bike The Joy, pain, and Numbness of Winter cycling, which really was my attempt at figuring out if riding my bike through a Canadian winter is a viable thing.

00:02:25:21 - 00:02:40:13
Tom Babin
And spoiler alert, I'm still doing it ten years later. So that might give you, sense of how the book ends. But really, it was like my journey and trying to discover, how how I could ride my bike all year round because I loved it the summer, and I just wanted to see if I could keep it going through the winter.

00:02:40:13 - 00:02:48:02
Tom Babin
So, yeah, that's me. I'm the guy who thinks about, bikes as transportation more than I should probably.

00:02:48:04 - 00:02:48:19
John Simmerman

00:02:48:21 - 00:02:50:09
Tom Babin
Well, I mean, real quickly, I want.

00:02:50:09 - 00:03:08:25
John Simmerman
To give some orientation for the audience, as to where we're both at. You're at the top of the screen there where the, the red dot is, and I'm way down in the bottom, almost as far south as you can get. There in Austin, Texas, with the blue dot that's throbbing there. And, yeah, it's it's fascinating.

00:03:08:28 - 00:03:33:16
John Simmerman
You know how we are journeys to to all of these, you know, these areas of, of becoming content creators and all of that. Share a little bit about your, your background, your backstory, your history. Is there something that you, you know, studied and were, you know, involved with, you know, like formally and professionally or is this something that is a little bit of a, an avocation or an interest on the side?

00:03:33:18 - 00:03:53:03
Tom Babin
Yeah. I'm, an amateur and everything. I don't know anything about anything. It's just, I just came to this as, as a person who loves love getting around on the bike. So, yeah, it all stemmed from that. So, you know, my background is in journalism. I worked, I was working at. I worked at a newspaper at the time when I started bike commuting, you know, 15.

00:03:53:03 - 00:04:15:22
Tom Babin
Probably more than more like 20 years ago now. I started bike commuting because I got tired of sitting in my crappy minivan. You know, I had young kids, and, I wasn't getting any activity. It was hard to get any exercise. The commute was killing me. And so I just I remember the moment I borrowed my wife's mountain bike and said, I'm going to take this today to work and, like, figured it out from there.

00:04:15:22 - 00:04:39:23
Tom Babin
And, like, I just instantly loved it. You know, I everything about it was, just there's it hit me in the right way. And so, I started doing it and then I started a blog at the time, back when blogs were thing, just documenting my journey, I had no idea, if anyone would care. But it turned out there was, a pretty like, active, I would say a huge but an active community at the time, people who are also bike commuting.

00:04:39:23 - 00:04:59:19
Tom Babin
And so we just sort of I started writing about it and, this community kind of built up and we were chatting a lot. And then, you know, my, sort of professional life has changed over that, or I'm not working in journalism. I moved over to do some marketing and some content creation. And so I wrote the book, and then that evolved into a YouTube channel where I spend most of my time these days creating videos.

00:04:59:19 - 00:05:14:12
Tom Babin
And really it was just me, you know, trying to figure out how video works and trying to find it. And so I've been really gratified to find an audience, around the world. And you probably like you had to mazing to me that there's like a core group of people who care really deeply about these issues. Basically, in every city in the world.

00:05:14:12 - 00:05:19:18
Tom Babin
So that's been really exciting for me to sort of find like minded people all over the place through that YouTube channel.

00:05:19:21 - 00:05:31:10
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And I pulled up the visual of the, the title or, you know, the cover of the book. And yeah, you just mentioned, ten year anniversary congratulations of, of, you know, hitting that mark.

00:05:31:13 - 00:05:51:04
Tom Babin
Thank you. It's sort of amazing. Ten years ago, I mean, I wrote that book in the first place because I was looking for resources on riding my bike in the winter time, but I couldn't find any. So I thought, well, maybe I can. I can check this out as well. So it's, the book is an issue of a niche, but it's been like slowly selling for ten years now.

00:05:51:04 - 00:06:03:13
Tom Babin
So I do think there are more and more people who are interested in this over time. So it's been really it's been quite the interesting journey in researching. It really opened my eyes to the potential of cycling in all kinds of different ways. So I'm really happy that it's out there.

00:06:03:16 - 00:06:11:03
John Simmerman
Fantastic. Is it pretty widely available? Is it still in print? And, and, you know, broadly available for folks?

00:06:11:05 - 00:06:28:01
Tom Babin
You mean more than the box in my closet over there? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's still a friend. Yeah. You can buy it on Amazon. It's still available. Okay. We there was a Canadian version, and it did well enough that we did a US version as well. Okay. Ten years ago. So it should be available.

00:06:28:08 - 00:06:32:03
Tom Babin
It's. And, you know, Force Comes to Us is still on Amazon, so you can find it there.

00:06:32:05 - 00:06:48:29
John Simmerman
Okay. Fantastic. Now I did notice out on Amazon I notice it said revised and updated. I'm assuming that that was probably a relatively, quick revision. Was it was that something is that what you mean by the, the, U.S. version of it?

00:06:49:01 - 00:07:02:05
Tom Babin
Yeah, yeah, there was an opportunity for the for the publisher. I had, to, to create a U.S. version. So I added some content, and I did a little exploration through some wintry U.S. cities and added that, as part of it.

00:07:02:07 - 00:07:23:01
John Simmerman
Fantastic. That's great. That's great. Well, yeah. And and you're you're absolutely right. It's it's kind of it's fascinating to when you think about that whole concept of, of writing in the winter. And for those of you, you know who that's just normal. I mean, that's what you have. You get winter. Winter comes around and you, you know, make that decision in.

00:07:23:02 - 00:07:43:05
John Simmerman
Oftentimes it's a pragmatic decision as to whether you're going to ride or not. I had the same when I lived in Chicago and, you know, jumping on my little commuter bike to get to the train station, to get out to the outer suburbs, because I did the reverse commute. It's just pragmatic. It just it made sense. It was easy to do and you just figured it out.

00:07:43:05 - 00:08:05:21
John Simmerman
And this this was in the mid 1990s. And so I'm just riding a little rickety $15 pike, you know, through the snow and and you just you get along along with it. But a lot of the pragmatic tips that you have, that you put out there, not only in the bike, but also in some of the videos, which we'll get to earlier, you know, simple things that people can do.

00:08:05:21 - 00:08:11:11
John Simmerman
And I love that your approach is that you don't have to have fancy equipment to do this stuff.

00:08:11:13 - 00:08:33:26
Tom Babin
Yeah. That's true. I do think we tend to overcomplicate things, especially in the cycling world, that at least our North America is really dominated by, sports and athletics and the sense that, bike should be fast and light and high performance. I just think that really dominates sort of like the retail market that we've got here. So I really like just to try to make it simple.

00:08:33:26 - 00:08:52:17
Tom Babin
I don't think it needs to be that complicated. And this really like hit home for me when I first started winter cycling. You know, this was back, you know, a while ago. And at the time people who rode their bikes in winter were like, like the weirdo in the office, you know, like there's always 1 or 2 who would like rolling on the cold days and people would be like, oh my God, you rode your bike today?

00:08:52:19 - 00:09:16:20
Tom Babin
And I would be like, well, yeah, that's how I get to work. And so there was almost like this, this perverse pride and like, I'm, I'm tough. I'm overcoming the elements. I'm getting through winter. But then in researching the book, when I was trying to find out if this was a viable thing, I went to a couple of cities, most notably this little city in northern Finland called Aloo which touted itself as the most bike friendly winter city in the world at the time.

00:09:16:23 - 00:09:33:18
Tom Babin
And, it really opened my eyes because for people there, they were not riding for performance. They're not riding expensive bikes. They're riding, you know, like what you said $15. You know, department store bikes in a lot of cases are bikes that had been in the family for 20 years or 30 years, and they're just using it to get to work.

00:09:33:18 - 00:09:52:16
Tom Babin
And so I had this I had this moment where, like, I arrived at a little late at night, got to my hotel, and that opened the door in the hotel the next morning to go outside and like, it was right, there was one of these great bike routes, paths right up front of the hotel. And like I saw streaming by me like, more people riding in winter than I'd probably ever seen before.

00:09:52:16 - 00:10:11:06
Tom Babin
And they were like kids and their moms, and they were like, you know, grandmas and going to get groceries and office workers wearing their nice clothes. And just people like going about their day. So it really was an eye opener to me that, you know, it's not that it's not that complicated. It's not that difficult. Anybody can do it if the conditions are right.

00:10:11:08 - 00:10:34:26
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And and thank you very much for including this video clip, from Pekka. Pekka Dakolo, who's a past guest here on the podcast. He's one of the cheerleaders of Ola and winter cycling and all of that. And, and you all hosted the winter cycling gathering last year, is that correct? And in Canada.

00:10:34:28 - 00:10:55:21
Tom Babin
Yeah, we've had it a couple times here. I mean, that's when I first met Pekka was the first ever Winter Cycling Congress. And Pekka was there beating me at the airport. I remember taking this tiny little plane from Helsinki up to the city I'd barely heard of before. And there was this guy with a huge beard waiting for me at midnight with a bike.

00:10:55:22 - 00:11:13:05
Tom Babin
And I was like, what have I got myself into? And, yeah, he's like, let's go. And he just take me on a ride through the city. And I looked a lot like this, actually. And riding on snow, the packed snow, which was great. And Pekka is just an amazing guy and he's so knowledgeable and so, like, open with and generous with his time and his knowledge.

00:11:13:05 - 00:11:33:10
Tom Babin
So it was a it was a great experience. So that Congress has been, going for, you know, more than ten years now. And we've had it here in Calgary. We hosted it last year in Edmonton, which is, city just north of here as well. So I would say, like the cities of Calgary in Edmonton are not world class bike cities, but there are some things we do in winter that are pretty good.

00:11:33:10 - 00:11:43:17
Tom Babin
And, so I would think we're not at a low standards, but, you know, over the years we picked up some really good things that make it work and make it viable, at least for people like me to ride our bikes in winter as well.

00:11:43:19 - 00:12:06:19
John Simmerman
Yeah, I'm pausing and reversing this video just for a second to point out this really, really cool thing that Pekka pointed out, before is they love to have these overhead cameras, broadcast down that little the stencil, the little, lighted version of. So you can tell in the wintertime which side is for walking and which side is for, for for cycling.

00:12:06:19 - 00:12:30:10
John Simmerman
Now, this person happens to be I think he's not in the right place, but it doesn't matter. But anyways, I just I find the interesting that. Yeah. Because your, your pavement markings get covered by the packed snow and the conditioning of the snow that they do on their, on their pathways. And so they have the ability to, to broadcast down, the illuminate, onto the pathway.

00:12:30:17 - 00:13:07:15
John Simmerman
It just gives a great example. And you mentioned it too, is that there's, there's tons of people out riding because it's the natural, pragmatic thing to do. He mentioned kids. I mean, the kids are riding it at rates that are just amazing. Like 60, 70% of kids get to school by bike because they have access to this network of off street network of pathways that deliver them to their meaningful destinations, you know, from basically from their home, home doorsteps to the schools and the context of of all who, is, of course, is very suburban in context.

00:13:07:20 - 00:13:29:09
John Simmerman
You know, obviously they have a downtown area and they have the university area. But when you look at it, there's lots and lots of single family homes. It's kind of suburban in, in that sort of spread out nature of it. But they had the foresight to have this off street network of pathways, very generous in size, to be able to accommodate both people walking and biking.

00:13:29:12 - 00:13:30:28
John Simmerman
Just brilliant.

00:13:31:00 - 00:13:50:23
Tom Babin
Yeah, that you're right. It's just the foresight, I think, Peco told me the story once of, you know, it really came down to one city planner in the 70s who was looking ahead. And, so they've really integrated, you know, those multi-use pathways are often given priority, like the distances are shorter if you're on foot and bike rather than in a car, which makes total, total sense.

00:13:50:23 - 00:14:11:02
Tom Babin
You know, like, yeah, you know, why wouldn't it be that way? And so it really is. You know, I was a small city that's, got, you know, not not, it's not like metropolitan densities, but it's like a somewhat compact. So the distances are short. So all those things help. But that but really what the, the game changer are those pathways.

00:14:11:04 - 00:14:35:12
Tom Babin
And I would say in the winter time, what makes it unique is the way they maintain, those pathways for the conditions. I don't see this a lot. I guess they do it, actually. And that's the best that I've seen. And and that they're reacting to the conditions as they exist at the at that moment. So what happens here when it snows, no matter whether there's a heavy snow or a light snow or, you know, the brushes come and sweep it off or the plows come in the snow way.

00:14:35:14 - 00:14:51:16
Tom Babin
In our it's really based on what's happening that day. And so they try to keep a packed level like a packed, a layer of snow to ride on, which sounds slippery, but it's not. It actually gets great traction. And if the day requires it, they will shave off a layer of that snow to keep the conditions right.

00:14:51:22 - 00:15:13:24
Tom Babin
If it started to warm up and that snow is getting slushy, then the plows will come and go right down to bald pavement. And so the fact that they're so reactive to the conditions, I think, is really what makes a huge difference. There. And, you know, it's tough to pull off. I think you need, you need a really engaged, city that cares about this sort of thing and prioritizes it, but really makes a huge difference.

00:15:13:26 - 00:15:30:07
Tom Babin
You know, this is a shot from from Calgary, where I live, too. And that was a particularly beautiful winter day. But that's not a pack layer of snow. That's just like bad plowing and snow overnight. Right. So, it worked out well that day. But after we get lots of ice and that sort of thing as well.

00:15:30:09 - 00:15:34:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. Speaking of of, challenging plowing situations. Yeah.

00:15:34:27 - 00:15:52:10
Tom Babin
Yeah. This is what I call skirt. I don't know where I heard this word first, but it's this combination of snow plus dirt equals inert. And so after a heavy snowfall, this is what the well is due to snow. They just chew it up with dirt, and, I can handle snow. I can handle ice. I can handle slush.

00:15:52:17 - 00:16:13:03
Tom Babin
But that snow is the scariest part of winter writing. It's just like, lift your bike and, like, you sort of float through it in unpredictable ways. And so I find that the worst and one of the problems we have in our city, and this is not that uncommon, is that we don't the city doesn't plow residential routes, doesn't plow residential roads, we plow main roads and that's it.

00:16:13:03 - 00:16:29:24
Tom Babin
Sidewalks are left to property owners, which is also kind of crazy. And those if we get a heavy snowfall on those residential roads, it could be weeks before it's, possible to bike on them. So, you know, we've got a ways to go before we're at those outdoor levels of, like, winter maintenance.

00:16:29:26 - 00:16:56:05
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. I want to pop over to your channel here and your landing page for your channel. Talk a little bit about. And give the history in the context of, of the channel. And we talked a little bit about the book and we know that that was about a decade ago. When did you sort of get in your mind that you wanted to be a content creator, a video content creator, a very successful video content creator?

00:16:56:05 - 00:17:06:16
John Simmerman
You're up over 125,000 subscriptions. Congratulations on on making that. Can you recall when you, eclipsed that 100,000 subscriber mark?

00:17:06:18 - 00:17:24:21
Tom Babin
Yeah, I was after a baby for years, of doing it. So I, you know, I'm on the slow road to YouTube success. If it's if it's successful, I don't know. I question this all the time. It was mostly just me. You know, I feel like I, am a content creator at heart. Yeah, I just have this.

00:17:24:24 - 00:17:41:03
Tom Babin
I just want to create stuff. I. And I want to share my cycling journey. Like, I don't think of myself as an expert. That's like trying to educate people. I feel like I'm always learning about what makes cities better, about urbanism, about my commuting, about cycling in the city. And I just want to share my journey with people.

00:17:41:03 - 00:17:57:04
Tom Babin
I think the book opened some doors for me, to try to do things that other people didn't get to do. And so I just want to share what I'm learning along the way. And so I really take that approach on my YouTube channel. I'm trying not to be preachy about anything. I just want to, like, share what I'm picking up along the way.

00:17:57:04 - 00:18:15:03
Tom Babin
So I, I turn to YouTube just, out of curiosity, mostly. I had never done much video creation as a writer, and I thought I'd give it a shot. And like, I really enjoyed the process. And the audience, seemed to emerge. I, I feel like there's I've gotten better over the years, but I have so much room for improvement.

00:18:15:06 - 00:18:34:24
Tom Babin
You know, I have a friend who once told me that I make videos like a writer, which I don't think was a compliment. But I've been, you know, I'm trying to get better and better over time. But really, it's my. It's just me sharing what I learned along the way. So, I hope people take it in that spirit, as well.

00:18:34:26 - 00:19:03:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, I suppose I write videos or I publish videos and produce videos, like a health promotion professional and an informer, a research scientist. I love diving deep in and like having these long discussions on it. But I do notice that, your your most popular video of all time, 1.1 million views. Fantastic. And it was, you know, along the lines of, you know, single speed versus a fixed gear, very bike.

00:19:03:15 - 00:19:32:12
John Simmerman
You kind of related, and took off, but then you've got really solid views on a lot of other, like, very practical things like simplify your bike, avoid these mistakes and, the one I love and I've watched a couple of different times is, you know, that bike is weird. The Dutch bike. And, you had the opportunity to interview Anders from the plane bicycle project, you know, there in Winnipeg, which is just a fantastic story.

00:19:32:12 - 00:19:58:26
John Simmerman
And I've profiled the plane bicycle project a couple of times. I had Erin Ruediger on who produced the podcast series On the Plane Bicycle Project. So, yeah, I mean, it's it's got to be pretty wild to see these kinds of numbers, you know, 1.1 million, you know, 700 plus thousand views of of your content. And, yeah, you mentioned that you've been doing it for for a while.

00:19:58:26 - 00:20:07:24
John Simmerman
I see videos dating back 13 years here. I, I had to chuckle when I saw the one with, Phil Liggett there. That's freaking awesome.

00:20:07:26 - 00:20:23:24
Tom Babin
Well, I you you're taking me back here? Yeah, I forgot about those ones. That was even before I would even say I was making YouTube videos. It was like, I feel like it wasn't, there's like this Lance Armstrong event at the time, and, I happen to go and feel like it was there, and I was like, hey, fella, I just, I had my camera.

00:20:23:24 - 00:20:42:24
Tom Babin
I, I can ask him a few questions. So that was that was kind of fun. Yeah. It's interesting, on YouTube, like those, those videos you mentioned that, have those views. It's really like a slow accumulation over time. I find, like, those practical tips, that I put out there are the ones that really have, like, long lives on them.

00:20:42:24 - 00:20:58:20
Tom Babin
I think people are just that tells me that people are looking for practical, commuting information, I think. Well, I do have a mix. I try to mix it up. I do bits on urbanism, I do bits on sort of, teaching people, what I've learned about cycling. But it's also practical tips that people seem to be like searching for all the time as well.

00:20:58:20 - 00:21:17:06
Tom Babin
So I think there's a real need out there for that. And, and part of it, I think maybe, I don't know, maybe you have a opinion on this is, it's the complication factor. I think we do tend to make cycling complicated. I feel like if you go if you're, like, regular Joe, who's just like, oh, I think I want to try this bike commuting thing and you go into a bike shop.

00:21:17:09 - 00:21:34:27
Tom Babin
I do think you tend to get pushed into like areas where things get really complicated really quickly. Or like, what bike do I need? What's the gear I need, what's the clothing I need? And one of the best things I've learned over time is you don't really need any of that. You can spend as much money as you want, and if you like gear, if you like buying that stuff, you can go for it.

00:21:34:27 - 00:21:49:26
Tom Babin
But you don't really need anything except the bike. Often it's like the best bike is the one you have at your disposal. So yeah, I think that might be why you see so many those long, you know, views growing over time is like people looking for advice because, things get complicated out there.

00:21:49:28 - 00:22:11:11
John Simmerman
Yeah, well, it didn't take long. I mean, you see, you know, 11 years ago, 12 years ago, cycling in Copenhagen 11 years ago. And then you start to turn your camera towards, you know, sort of the, the challenges that you're seeing out on, on the roadways and the pathway is, you know, a, a, you know, a disappearing pathway and you're like, oh my gosh.

00:22:11:11 - 00:22:38:22
John Simmerman
So you're starting to shift a little bit of the focus of what you're talking about, of what are some of those pain points, what are some of the friction points that are preventing people from riding, whether it's making things overly complicated or it's the lack of bicycle friendly infrastructure in the environment? Because ultimately, you know, that's probably the most important thing that people who would ride but aren't riding currently will tell you is that I just don't feel safe.

00:22:38:24 - 00:22:54:25
Tom Babin
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that struck me very early, is I was able to ride because I was young and aggressive on a bike, which I am no longer like that. But and I see so many people who were like say, oh, I would love to ride, but I don't have a I don't know how to get to work.

00:22:54:25 - 00:23:12:12
Tom Babin
I don't have a safe route. And we have, you know, we have a great in Calgary here. We have a great multi-use pathway network. We have a pretty good network of on street bike lanes. It's small, but, I was going to say growing. It's not really growing. We have, like, a core, group of them, but they don't connect.

00:23:12:12 - 00:23:27:04
Tom Babin
Right. There's a lot of disconnections. And I think what I learned early is like, those little gaps in the network are just like, you know, that's the end of it for lots of people. If they if there's a two block gap that as me as a confident cyclist is no problem to overcome. For some people, that's just it.

00:23:27:04 - 00:23:57:08
Tom Babin
They're just not going to do it. And we have a great example of like this great multi-use pathway by a river and a great separated barrier, bike lane that heads towards it. And then there is literally a two block gap. Or you have to like it stops, just dumps you out onto the street and, it's onto a busy road and like, I don't ride there like it's, you know, it's crazy that there's this two block gap to get to these places, but that gap is I go way out of my way to find a safer route, because I just don't have to deal with that anymore.

00:23:57:08 - 00:24:17:03
Tom Babin
So I remember someone telling me early on, like where they ride a bike in a city, that's not built for bikes, that they just feel like every time they encountered a little barrier, it was like the city telling them that you don't belong here. And, like, if that stuck in my mind for some reason. And now sometimes when I'm riding, I'm like, oh, here's another reason, here's another thing that they're telling me I shouldn't be here.

00:24:17:06 - 00:24:32:03
Tom Babin
Here's another thing they're telling me I shouldn't be here about. So, I think that sort of jumped out of me early on. And, you know, once you start to see the world of the city in those ways, it's sort of like it's frustrating. But also, I think I've learned through the YouTube channel that people relate to it, and they have the same frustrations.

00:24:32:03 - 00:24:49:05
Tom Babin
And there there is some catharsis in complaining about it, but also to see how easily these things can be overcome in different cities, I think is really sort of exciting for people to see as well. I you know, I've often learned like, I don't know if you've had the same experience, but I feel like every great bike city has something to teach us.

00:24:49:07 - 00:25:00:11
Tom Babin
But like, every bad bike city is the same. It's the same. You know, I was saying about, like, happy families are all the same, but, dysfunctional families are all different. It's like good bike cities here. The same way as well, I think.

00:25:00:13 - 00:25:20:22
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Know, I also notice, to about six years ago is when you, you, you published your your welcome to to shifter and all about this channel. I get the sense that that was probably about the time when you really started to, to feel like, okay, this is a thing. I've been doing this for about 6 or 7 years at this point.

00:25:20:22 - 00:25:27:02
John Simmerman
You know, you get your first videos 13 years ago. This is six years ago. Look at that young dude. My gosh.

00:25:27:04 - 00:25:29:20
Tom Babin
Handsome young man. Look how great my beard looks now.

00:25:29:26 - 00:25:48:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. And so you did shift. You went ahead and did you know you put, welcome to to to shifter. And you really started to lean into that. Talk a little bit about that balance between the fact that, you know, you're you're commuting to your job, you're doing another you've got a career, but you're also doing this on the side.

00:25:48:19 - 00:26:04:14
John Simmerman
How does that really work for you? And how were you able to balance, you know, being a content creator? Getting out on the road because you do travel just like I travel to produce content. You know, how does that all balance out for you?

00:26:04:16 - 00:26:23:15
Tom Babin
I don't know. I find just making it happen, like, just trying to do that all the time. And I question that constantly. So it's busy. Yeah, I have a day job, which I love. You know, I think I could, you know, it's it's probably viable to do that full time, but I, I really enjoy my day job, and I feel really it gives me a lot of gratification.

00:26:23:18 - 00:26:39:24
Tom Babin
YouTube is both a creative outlet for me and also something I deeply care about. And so it's really just finding the time. I, you know, for content. I just feel like I've got a bit of a routine now that I sort of, I try to get into, I, I feel very heartened by the response I get.

00:26:39:24 - 00:27:03:20
Tom Babin
I think the community really motivates me now. I get amazing comments. I get emails, I get the best emails from people who say, like, I hadn't written a bike in 20 years, and your channel demystified it for me. And I was able to get out there and give it a try. I got an email, last year from a guy who said, he had diabetes and he was overweight and he was on medication, and he wanted to, you know, riding again.

00:27:03:22 - 00:27:19:10
Tom Babin
And, my channel gave me some practical tips and sort of gave him a bit of a bit of a nudge. And he had all those health problems were, getting back, manageable again. So, I mean, come on. That's amazing. Like, that's really motivating for me now as well. So I do try to find the balance.

00:27:19:10 - 00:27:33:00
Tom Babin
I don't always hit it. I try to keep it consistent as much as possible, but I think every content creator tries to balance these things in the best way they can. So, you know, sometimes, sometimes I feel like I'm doing great. Other times I think, what am I doing here? Well, I'm.

00:27:33:00 - 00:28:00:22
John Simmerman
Glad you mentioned that about your audience. I feel the same way. I feel like I've got just an amazing audience that are tuning in and watching this content. And I will tell you this, though, this is a little bit of feedback, is that you and Ray Delahunty from City Nerd, the Channel City Nerd were the two most requested, interviews for me to get, you know, put forth the reason I reached out to you a couple of years ago to get you on the pod was because your name just kept coming up.

00:28:00:22 - 00:28:21:25
John Simmerman
You know, folks were like, oh, man, I really love that interview that you did with Dot, dot, Dot. You need to get Tom on shifters. Awesome. And so I'm really super stoked that we've been able to, to, to to satisfy that, because it's wonderful when you do get that feedback, you know, that you're making a difference out in people's world when you're producing the content.

00:28:21:27 - 00:28:50:15
John Simmerman
I do want to shift to to some of our most recent content and talk a little bit about some of the the trends that we're seeing in this world. You mentioned earlier, you know, the other creators that that are producing similar content in this world. And I find, you know, the whole suite of of the content creators that are in sort of in this active mobility world, just some of the nicest people I'm super good friends with, with clearance Akerson from Street Films and Marc Valkenburg from Bicycle Dutch.

00:28:50:17 - 00:29:10:22
John Simmerman
And it just, you know, it's they're amazing, amazing people that are putting, you know, content out on a regular basis and doing it far longer than I have. Talk a little bit about the trend and the emergence that you've seen, especially within the last six, you know, 5 to 6 years that you've been in the space.

00:29:10:24 - 00:29:27:29
John Simmerman
Because it's it has grown up. I mean, we are seeing a proliferation of urbanism channels and active mobility channels and all of that. And then I want to, then I want to dive into, you know, some of the recent themes and trends that have popped up.

00:29:28:01 - 00:29:48:13
Tom Babin
Yeah, it's been really interesting. And, to see this growth, I mean, I wrote a blog for a year. We felt very sort of isolating. There was not definitely not a community out there, that there is today. And it you're right. I feel like it just sort of emerged in the last little while, last few years.

00:29:48:16 - 00:30:08:22
Tom Babin
I don't know why. I think, maybe the world was just ready for it. I think there's lots of us doing our thing. Maybe seeing each other on YouTube. How? Bring us together. I think the success of not just bikes, sort of brought, a lot of people who realized like, oh, cities are really interesting. Let's, like, we could do better, I think like his success.

00:30:08:24 - 00:30:25:27
Tom Babin
You know, he has a very similar story to mine. We did a video collaboration a couple years ago where in chatting with him, he's like, we both wrote blogs that were read mostly by our friends and family. And then, you know, and he's found great success and he does a great job at like, Ray like to be mentioned, you know, with those guys is such an honor for me.

00:30:25:27 - 00:30:47:21
Tom Babin
I love their content also. But it really is like a sense of community, too. I did a event in Montreal, organized, by my friend Paige Saunders, who has a totally underrated and amazing channel that touches on urbanism as well out of Montreal. But to see, you know, the transit guys who were there and, some of the urbanism, folks like, that's a real amazing, supportive community.

00:30:47:21 - 00:31:07:15
Tom Babin
And to see people come together, I think is really, is really great. And I have like, mad respect for the people who are, like, behind the scenes, going to the council meetings every, every day, like doing the hard work of like facing those meetings down and like, I, we need those we need people to do that all the time.

00:31:07:17 - 00:31:31:07
Tom Babin
And I'm glad there are people doing that. I also think there's a role for like, like the the YouTubers and the bloggers and the podcasters and getting more people on board. Like, I have a video that's on the screen there called the one that says Car Brain. Yeah. About the study, about Moto Normativity. And I really think, this is one of the hugest barriers right now is, the idea that most people don't even understand these issues.

00:31:31:07 - 00:31:46:25
Tom Babin
Like, I think a lot of people, especially in North America, who've been raised in this, in this moto normative world where the car is just the way you get around, like I feel, I mean, so many people who like when I, you know, I sometimes I go on a rant about like, oh my God, I can't believe it's the transit, the so terrible in the city.

00:31:46:25 - 00:32:04:22
Tom Babin
And why do we only prioritize the car? And they've never even thought about this. Like, I just feel like they've never even, like, considered it because it's so ingrained. And so I do think there's a really important role for sort of that awareness, like raising awareness of these issues out there too. So I like to think maybe like the time was just right for all these people to come together.

00:32:04:24 - 00:32:11:15
Tom Babin
And maybe it's become a bit of a community. So I don't know what's your theory and all this? You've kind of follow this very similar path.

00:32:11:17 - 00:32:37:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And with my background in public health, you know, I've been really, you know, kind of looking at this over the last 20 years of shifting towards how the built environment encourages healthy, active living. And so, you know, the work by Ian Walker, you know, professor out in Wales that, you know, coined the term modal normativity or, you know, car brain is a term that we've used in windshield bias is a term that we've used for many, many years.

00:32:37:17 - 00:33:07:09
John Simmerman
But really, you know, equivalent, you know, making that, that, that comparison to and that there you go. There's how do you spell it? Moto normativity. You know, you know, making that comparison to, to cigaret smoke and some of the studies that were done to like say, well, why is it we just kind of accept, you know, this in, in this might be in the example being used as, you know, tail tailpipe exhaust versus cigaret smoke and secondhand smoke.

00:33:07:09 - 00:33:44:02
John Simmerman
And it's like the level of acceptance that we have in our brain really brings us back to a lot of the framing and the way that stuff has been done. And, Grant in does a fabulous job. In his book, dark PR, to talk about just how masterful those marketers were in the EV, framing messages to us that really helped shape, in addition to the built environment, really helps shape our our thought process is of of really, you know, coming to understand that or believe that there's only one way a car culture.

00:33:44:04 - 00:34:05:29
John Simmerman
And so it's it's very, very interesting and insidious, you know, how it all comes together. But what's really cool is that, like, it seems like it's really, you know, to your point, it's really all come together in the last few years where we're having these discussions and looking at this sort of stuff. So I'm super excited to see this really kind of hitting, you know, the Zeit Geist.

00:34:06:01 - 00:34:22:28
John Simmerman
And I get really excited when some of our material and the content that we're talking about, permeates out into the, into the mass market and mass media. And the general population is going, oh, wow, I hadn't thought of it that way.

00:34:23:01 - 00:34:44:15
Tom Babin
Yeah, I love to see that, too. And I do think, while that that the, the most important work, of course, is that work of going to those meetings. But when you go to a public meeting for any sort of urbanist style or even like a project around density or, adding a new bike lane or a transit project, it's not only the politicians who are like behind this.

00:34:44:15 - 00:35:03:09
Tom Babin
Like most people, you know, most of the things you hear, most of the opposition comes from complaints about parking or, you know, like, where am I going to drive? Where am I get a car? How am I going to park? That is that's a symptom of motor normativity as well. So I think those are the people, you know, we need to sort of we need to bring people along with us.

00:35:03:09 - 00:35:10:09
Tom Babin
And I think, you know, there are lots of ways you're doing it, hopefully. And we are a small part of bringing some of those people along. Yeah.

00:35:10:09 - 00:35:36:13
John Simmerman
And this is just some, some visuals, you know, continuing from, from that particular video on on moto normativity and other challenges that we have with the fact. Oh, and I know what I was going to say too, is that you just mentioned, you know, you know, the challenges of like, the population at large is, you know, we realize when we go to those open houses and cities are trying to, move things along and make some changes.

00:35:36:13 - 00:35:58:17
John Simmerman
And then when you realize the resistance from, the overall population, you, you it really drives home just how hard it is to change. And as a behaviors and somebody who's been steeped and trained in psychology, I'm like, oh yeah, imagine what it's like trying to change health behaviors. It's the same thing, you know. And so mobility behaviors and all of this.

00:35:58:17 - 00:36:26:08
John Simmerman
But literally when we talk about changing the built environment out in front of people's houses, there's naturally concern that people have, because it feels personal. It's like, oh, wait, you know, in theory this sounded great, but you're you're going to do what? You're going to take away parking, you're going to you're going to redefine what the spaces, you know, out in front of my house or along my route to my kids school, to my work, etc..

00:36:26:11 - 00:37:00:01
John Simmerman
And so I think we have to have a certain amount of empathy for understanding that we do need to. And this is a tough word for us to, you know, sit with well, as advocates, we have to be patient and bring people along and understand that also the status quo is pushing back, and sometimes they do so with misinformation and, you know, not always the best intentions, because they have a vested interest to continue the motoring, the joy of motoring drive everywhere for everything.

00:37:00:09 - 00:37:23:14
John Simmerman
And so the vast majority of people don't really care one way or the other. They kind of swing one way or the other. But we do have to have that empathy and patience with them to bring them along. And you're absolutely right. I believe that part of what we're doing with content creation and dispelling myths, which you've got several videos where you dispel myths, is a big part of it.

00:37:23:16 - 00:37:41:04
Tom Babin
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I do think we need to, you know, I've been accused of being maybe too stupid to patient, or, you know, not being strident enough sometimes, but, you know, I think just, you know, I live in this world, too. You know, I have these conversations with people in my own family who don't understand it.

00:37:41:04 - 00:37:58:00
Tom Babin
And I see, you know, I also live in a pickup truck city, for example. Right. I've owned pickup trucks in my life. And, you know, it has to if I'm just to go and say, if you if you buy a Ford F-150, you're an evil person. It's not the approach that I want to take. It's not the way I move through the world.

00:37:58:03 - 00:38:12:06
Tom Babin
It's more about, like bringing them along, helping people see. And also, I'm never. I'm not right all the time either. Right? I'm learning here to. I'm not an expert in these things. So hopefully people can sort of relate to the journey that I'm going on as well. That's that's the approach I've been taking.

00:38:12:09 - 00:38:40:23
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. I also love the way that you, you kind of, you know, catch on to some some fun little trends too. You had Marinovich on and you did the criminals. The criminologist debunks, and she's talking a little bit about, her approach to bike theft. I love the fact that you do delve into, you know, an e-bike and a cargo bike, and you, you started talking about that, which is one of the things that she's super passionate about with.

00:38:40:24 - 00:39:08:26
John Simmerman
She's an influencer out on social media, talking about from a mom's perspective of the life changing capabilities of a cargo bike and especially electric assist. Talk a little bit about, you know, some of the things that, you know, surprised you about, you know, some of these things like, like a cargo bike, like an e-bike and, and some of the things that, you know, maybe the young version of Tom wouldn't have necessarily been all that, you know, supportive of.

00:39:08:26 - 00:39:12:29
John Simmerman
And, and and you're like, no, seriously, this is really life changing.

00:39:13:01 - 00:39:38:14
Tom Babin
Yeah. It can be. And if you want to talk about bike that too. This is also one of my, you know, young Tom didn't think much about bike theft, and I'm lucky enough to never have had a bike stolen. But I do think that video you're mentioning is part of a series I've done on bike theft, and I've got a few more in the works now, because I really think bike theft is an underappreciated barrier to cycling, maybe everywhere in the world.

00:39:38:16 - 00:39:55:02
Tom Babin
I do get the sense that for a long time we just accepted bike theft. We didn't accept, like, nobody likes bike theft. But it's like, oh, it's it's something you can't do anything about. It's just like the cost of living in a city and the more I look into this and more I realize that, no, there are things we can do about it.

00:39:55:05 - 00:40:12:27
Tom Babin
That video with Matty. Matty who? Who's like, you know, she's cargo bike mama on Instagram, and she sort of documents her life with three kids or, riding a bike. She also just happened to be a, criminology professor. And so she had all these interesting things, whatever. That was convenient. Yeah. Right. We went for a ride together.

00:40:12:27 - 00:40:40:06
Tom Babin
I was in New York one time, and she, like, she parks her cargo bike on the streets of Harlem and just locks it up. And I was like, how's your bike? How often does your bike get stolen? She said, it's never been stolen. And she had like, you know, academic reasons behind it. She locks it up, she puts a motorcycle cover over it and removing it from people's lines of sight and, you know, really fit into, like, a crime prevention strategy that she articulated so well because she's so well versed in this.

00:40:40:06 - 00:41:07:02
Tom Babin
So I was like, oh, we got to talk more about this stuff. This is really interesting. And so, that's one thing. I've done a bunch of videos with a guy named, Rob brunt, who is a former Vancouver Police Department detective who was really instrumental in, implementing a new program about, bike theft, reducing bike theft in that city and, Vancouver, you know, ten years ago was maybe the worst city in the world for a bike that the race for astronomical.

00:41:07:05 - 00:41:26:23
Tom Babin
And, since this program called project 5 to 9 has been implemented. It's down. I talked to him just the other day, and he said it's now down 70% from when they started. Wow. And it's a really interesting program that's really starting to grow. It's based, you know, there's no silver bullet. It's a program. It's based around an online database.

00:41:26:25 - 00:41:44:27
Tom Babin
So cities use bike index, my cities as bike index, 5 to 9 garages when they use it. Doesn't matter. They're both great. But really, the important part is when you pair all of these strategies together, in a comprehensive way. So you have a, you have a bike registry database where you just, you know, it's not about who can ride.

00:41:44:27 - 00:42:03:16
Tom Babin
It's just like it's a theft prevention, registry. You just put your bike in there, you label your bike to say it's been registered. Businesses get on board by, changing their bike parking to put them in better locations. By, public racks are more secured. Initiatives like at festivals and events. There's valet bike parking.

00:42:03:20 - 00:42:25:04
Tom Babin
Some cities now have permanent valet parking. Community events. Some businesses in Vancouver offer a loaner like program. So if you forget your lock, you can just go ask the them, or they'll give you the lend you a lock for a couple of hours. You know, by implementing all these programs, and by going at some of those, crime prevention measures that, that you mentioned in that video, you know, it can make a difference.

00:42:25:04 - 00:42:50:08
Tom Babin
It's really it can really be effective in reducing the number of bikes being stolen and returning recovered bikes to their owners when they are recovered by police. And, you know, it's all done without crack, without a crackdown, without arresting more people. It's just a it's a program that actually works. But the problem is it's hard. It takes resources, it takes time, it takes commitment, and it takes organization within the community.

00:42:50:08 - 00:43:12:01
Tom Babin
And so I'm really happy to see this ideas are finally starting to spread. At the same time, we're finally seeing some, the bike industry starting to take that seriously, too. You know, we see more. You know, Bosch just announced a really interesting program, on their pedal assists, where there's a tracking device. And also, you can shut the device down if it gets stolen, so it can't be transferred to another bike.

00:43:12:03 - 00:43:29:12
Tom Babin
You're seeing lots of, bikes being, built with, location tracking on them now. So, like, you know, when I first started talking about this, you know, 5 or 6 years ago, I feel like nobody cared, like nobody's doing anything. So to see all these of all these things happening now, it's really great, because I do think it discourages a lot of people from riding bikes.

00:43:29:12 - 00:43:40:01
Tom Babin
Like, how many people have you met who, like, had their bike stolen? And then they're like, forget about riding my bike anymore, right? I think it's a huge barrier. So that was not your question. I just wanted a bike different.

00:43:40:04 - 00:43:55:28
John Simmerman
I think I think that's great because that was actually, you know, part of my next question, you know, is, is, yeah, you had that video on the bike first, and you also had the the video on the cargo bike and how that, you know, could very much be a life changing, you know, event for some folks.

00:43:56:01 - 00:44:15:06
John Simmerman
But yeah, my, my next question is, you know, what are you super excited about? Obviously, the bike theft is something that you're passionate about, wanting to do that when you we look at 2025 and going forward, what are some of the things that have really got you excited about some of the themes and some of the things that you're seeing being talked about?

00:44:15:09 - 00:44:30:11
Tom Babin
Yeah, I you're right. I'm really excited about the impact of cargo bikes. I don't know what it's like in Austin, but I'm seeing more and more of them here in Calgary all the time. I was recently in the city of, Victoria, which is in, in British Columbia. And I was blown away how many cargo bikes?

00:44:30:11 - 00:44:51:00
Tom Babin
They did a great job building bike infrastructure. There's a great bike shop there that sells, that does a really good job, like getting families in and like, making it easy and, like, getting away from the snobbery of bike shops. And cargo bikes are just everywhere, and they are such a game changer. For families, when you have young kids, getting around on them can really get you more active.

00:44:51:02 - 00:45:07:16
Tom Babin
There's all kinds of cargo bikes being sold out there. It's a cost savings, I think, to, they're. Yeah, they're expensive, but not compared to a car. And if you can go from AA2 car family down to a one car family with a cargo bike, then you're saving yourself tons of money. Despite the, the cost of that cargo bike.

00:45:07:16 - 00:45:24:11
Tom Babin
So I'm excited about cargo bikes. I'm excited about the the public health implications. I know this is probably how they used to be talking about for 20 years or whatever, but I think like it's underappreciated to like the the public health impacts of active travel. I think it's one of our strongest arguments in favor of making it easier to walk.

00:45:24:11 - 00:45:44:27
Tom Babin
And bike is like the public health side of it. I think that's, we don't talk about that enough. I think I'd like to see more on that. Another strong argument that I don't see enough on is, helping kids ride their bikes to school again. Like you've seen those. The graph of the the that's, you know, the number of kids who ride their bikes to school is just fall off a cliff over the last, you know, 20 years.

00:45:44:27 - 00:46:04:00
Tom Babin
And like, it's hard to argue against getting more kids on their bikes to school like it's it's just so good for them in so many ways. So, I think that's interesting. You know, personally, what I've been thinking a lot more about lately is like riding my bike for fun, like for recreation. Sometimes I like, I like it's transportation for me all the time.

00:46:04:00 - 00:46:05:12
John Simmerman
It's going full circle.

00:46:05:12 - 00:46:17:28
Tom Babin
Yeah. It's kind of like, you know, I run for a ride. The other day, in a beautiful winter day, and I was like, oh, yeah, this is actually fun to do. Sometimes I forget that. So yeah, those are where my head's. Yeah. What are the trends you're seeing? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that too.

00:46:18:00 - 00:46:48:27
John Simmerman
Well, I'm I'm with you on all of those areas. And, you know, especially with the area of kids being able to get back to school, I've just been super, super excited to see the the transformation or excuse me, the explosion of interest around bike, bus and, you know, getting kids together en masse, and being able to, you know, to, to get to school and the work that, Coach Balto Cymbalta has done in Portland to really bring that to a worldwide attention.

00:46:48:29 - 00:47:12:03
John Simmerman
And he's now focusing, his time 100% of his time to doing that. With the launch of bike bus Dot world is the website, for for that, initiative and School Streets programs. I'm just absolutely blown away by how cool that is. And I've had the opportunity to document, several of them in Europe, including in Paris and also in Ghent, Belgium.

00:47:12:05 - 00:47:34:10
John Simmerman
So that's really, really cool. Yeah. I'm glad glad you gave the shout out to public health. And in that aspect of what active mobility could be doing for us, and that's also inter-related, with us building all ages and abilities, facilities that do encourage kids to be able to get to school, do encourage, older adults to be able to get to their meaningful destinations.

00:47:34:13 - 00:47:57:25
John Simmerman
And aside to public health that a lot of people don't appreciate. You know, oftentimes they they go directly to chronic diseases. You know, but, you know, you in taking look at heart disease and cancer and blood pressure issues and things of that diabetes, things of that nature. That's what I cut my teeth on, you know, in public health and working with, you know, populations to improve that.

00:47:57:27 - 00:48:36:02
John Simmerman
But those are years down the line. Oftentimes what what is often underappreciated is what happens right away, with which is tied to what you just said, which is this fun is the immediate, you know, wellness and health promotion aspect of what it can do for our mental health, what it can do for us in terms of stress reduction and management, huge, huge opportunities to to connect the dots, to say that for cities especially is like, yeah, this is not just, you know, fun, you know, bicycle infrastructure for the cyclists.

00:48:36:04 - 00:48:54:27
John Simmerman
We're talking about this is wonderful quality of life infrastructure for the entire population. So really, you know, broadening that tent and saying that, yeah, doing this really opens up the door for so many co-benefits, including kids being able to get to school.

00:48:54:29 - 00:49:35:19
Tom Babin
Yeah, absolutely. And and I notice on that note, I've seen I've been really impressed with a couple of projects I've seen in cities where, it's not necessarily building bike lanes, but it's really being strategic about modal filters, especially in residential neighborhoods on routes that go to schools or rec centers or soccer pitches or, you know, the places where kids are and families are going and, you know, just a couple of, you know, jersey barriers to redirect cars, but let, bicycles and pedestrians through, if you're, if, if a city is thoughtful about it and, strategic, it can really make a huge difference without going through the huge fight of, like,

00:49:35:19 - 00:49:52:16
Tom Babin
putting an on street bike lane that just seems to generate opposition in residential areas. I think it's, you know, anyone who lives on a street that where car traffic has been redirected away from is probably going to be in support of it, even if it means they have to, like drive an extra block to get into their into their garage.

00:49:52:18 - 00:50:10:20
Tom Babin
You know, I've seen great projects in Victoria, the city I mentioned earlier, in London. There's some really great stuff. You're seeing amazing things in Paris. And, you know, they're quick to implement, you know, they're not without controversy. But I do think sometimes they're easier to get in place than a bike lane. And they can have huge impacts on people's lives.

00:50:10:23 - 00:50:51:18
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. I want to pull up, the screen here just to to give a shout out to one of the videos that you did six months ago, which was cycling's gender gap problem. And it's something that we definitely see here in North America is it's still still mostly the dudes that are out riding when we don't have truly safe and inviting all ages and abilities, facilities and a network of facilities because we know what the result is when we see, you know, the cycling, rates and the split, the modal splits, in places like Copenhagen and places like the Netherlands, increasingly in, in different cities in Belgium, we're starting to see that gender

00:50:51:18 - 00:51:09:01
John Simmerman
gap, you know, tighten up a little bit. If not, you know, in in many cities in the, in the Netherlands, the number of women riding outnumber the number of men riding. We need to see more of that here in North America. And I think it's it barrier points right back to. And I'm sure you talk about this a lot, too.

00:51:09:03 - 00:51:24:11
John Simmerman
In that video. It's been a while since I've watched it is if we get the facilities right, if the environments truly, truly welcoming, safe and inviting for all ages and abilities and all genders, now we're going to get there.

00:51:24:13 - 00:51:49:18
Tom Babin
Yeah, I think so that that video was very interesting for me. The reaction to it and the production of it, I think a different way to think about it might just be like, let's build bike infrastructure that isn't just for commuters, right? I think that way. I do think that when you when you talk about a gender gap, what I learned from this video, the reactions video was like, if you, if you say gender gap, there is a segment of the population that just shuts down and doesn't want to hear about it anymore, right?

00:51:49:18 - 00:52:08:08
Tom Babin
Because, you know, for reasons that are stupid. But, I think if you just say, like, really, what it comes down to is not it's not about gender, it's about creating safe facilities for anybody to ride anywhere they want to go. So I think traditionally what we've done is built bike lanes for for guys like you and me to ride, to work.

00:52:08:11 - 00:52:29:20
Tom Babin
Right. Every day. And, if you, just broaden the, the target for that and make it families, you want to get to the school or, you know, you have to take your an elderly parent to, a doctor's appointment or a go to the community center or the library. If you brought it that way, then you're bringing everybody along with you, including women.

00:52:29:20 - 00:52:36:26
Tom Babin
So I think that's, you know, an interesting, way of thinking about it. And of course, we should do that. It shouldn't just be about getting people to work every day.

00:52:36:28 - 00:52:54:21
John Simmerman
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, too, because I fall into the trap of, like, when I'm talking about kids, of saying, you know, can they get to school? But it should be more than that. It's like, can a kid be a free range kid? Can they actually get anywhere and everywhere? And then you expand that from an all ages and abilities perspective.

00:52:54:21 - 00:53:16:02
John Simmerman
Then you include, well, you know, or elderly, you know, can they get to everywhere they need to go without having to feel like the only way they can get there is to get into a motor vehicle, you know, can they get to meaningful destinations. And, and as far as who has the wonderful book on non driver's non drivers, you know when driving is not an option.

00:53:16:05 - 00:53:39:21
John Simmerman
You know points out that 30 and 40% of our population are some form of non driver. Can they get to meaningful destinations. You know through walking biking using a mobile device and transit. And so it really sort of like hopefully destigmatize is what we're talking about. It's we're not just talking about bike lanes for quote unquote the dudes, the cyclists.

00:53:39:27 - 00:54:13:05
John Simmerman
We're really talking about mobility for everyone, all ages and abilities. To close us out, talk a little bit about what you have seen sort of transpire recently in terms of these discussions that were having, you know, this desire to create a more welcoming environment for all ages and abilities to be able to get around by walking, biking, using transit, again, mobility devices, etc. and yes, driving to, talk a little bit about what we've seen in terms of these becoming hot button issues and culture war issues.

00:54:13:07 - 00:54:50:06
John Simmerman
Obviously the one of the most notable here in North America is, you know, the premier there in Ontario, putting his foot down and saying, we're ripping out these bike lanes because they they're causing gridlock. They're not. Spoiler alert, folks, they're not. But it's become a it's become a culture war issue. In part some of your, your wisdom, you know, as, as especially tapping into your past experience as a journalist of understanding, of, thinking, of digging deeper and really understanding the dynamics that could be happening here.

00:54:50:09 - 00:55:10:09
Tom Babin
Yeah, I find it very discouraging, that this has turned into a culture war issue. I mean, I always was a little bit, and if not a culture war that an urban versus suburban debate. So there's always an element of that. But it really has blown up on this. And you're right about that, case in Ontario and I, which I think is probably going to happen in other places also.

00:55:10:12 - 00:55:32:01
Tom Babin
And I think it's because the politicians behind it see some political advantage in aligning themselves with the suburban drivers of those cities. I think that's where the real motivation is coming from. I mean, that's the base for the, that's the electorate they're going for. And, they think that, doing this will, get, suburban people on board.

00:55:32:03 - 00:55:57:11
Tom Babin
Well, that work I as a as a electoral strategy, I don't know, on my in my optimistic moments, I think that most people are probably a little more nuanced than that. I think most people know, someone who gets around in their life by bike. If it does lead to more dangerous situations, I don't know. And I don't know if most people understand that, you know, but removing parking and putting it back in is going to make things better.

00:55:57:11 - 00:56:16:07
Tom Babin
I mean, in Toronto, where this is the biggest issue, you had all the all the business owners were coming out against this idea of removing the bike lanes. Even the business owners are on board with this now too. Right? Which was a traditionally was a conservative constituency as well right there, you know, so all business owners were were part of that, part of that electorate.

00:56:16:07 - 00:56:38:12
Tom Babin
So, I hope this doesn't spread, but I sure it will. I think the answer is, what have we talked about before? It's like showing people that motor normativity is a thing and that there are there are alternatives and that there are viable alternatives to the automobile. And if we invest in transit, if we invest in pedestrian spaces, if we invest in cycling, it does pay off too.

00:56:38:12 - 00:56:54:07
Tom Babin
I don't know, I also feel like if you have a great urbanism project in your in your name, in your city and people go and experience it if they like, go for a walk on a street where there's great restaurants and cafes and trees and benches and they enjoy that, why wouldn't you want that in your neighborhood as well?

00:56:54:07 - 00:57:20:03
Tom Babin
So, you know, I'm I'm worried about it. This this the culture war is really spreading, to, one of the other solutions, I think, is what you just mentioned. I had this experience recently where, I was on a bus trip that got in a blizzard, and I had to, like, stop it, in the middle of the night to get off the bus because they couldn't continue, because the highway was closed and I was holed up in a suburban hotel for the day and, was trapped without a car for, like, a day, right?

00:57:20:03 - 00:57:40:16
Tom Babin
I didn't have a bike, which is that. Which didn't have a bike. Didn't have a car. There was no transit. And like, is, you know, there's people who talk about, 50 minute cities or walkability being a restriction on their freedom of movement. Well, that's a restriction on your freedom of movement if you don't have a car, which is what you just mentioned, 30 to 40% of the people.

00:57:40:16 - 00:57:57:00
Tom Babin
So sometimes those people get forgotten about, I think these conversations too. So maybe it's a point of reminder from so I know there's some random thoughts, but I wish there was an easy solution to it. I don't know if we would have solved the culture wars a long time ago if there was an easy one, but you know, who knows what's going to going to happen.

00:57:57:00 - 00:57:59:27
Tom Babin
I think we just need to keep, keep working at it.

00:58:00:00 - 00:58:22:04
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, I agree, I think that's and we have to keep talking and, and do so in ways where we're doing more listening and less talking, and really trying to understand what people's pain points are so that we can, do a better job, because if we're just preachy and we, we're putting, pushing our message out to the point where it's not really connecting.

00:58:22:04 - 00:58:24:11
John Simmerman
I think that that's that's one of the most important things.

00:58:24:12 - 00:58:28:07
Tom Babin
And yeah, that's an excellent point. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%.

00:58:28:09 - 00:58:42:22
John Simmerman
Well, Tom, this has been such a pleasure to finally, connect with you. Thank you so much for making this happen. Today, I'm going to turn you loose to your workday. Again, Tom Babin with shifter. Thank you so very much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:58:42:24 - 00:58:44:12
Tom Babin
Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. Thanks, John.

00:58:44:15 - 00:58:59:06
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Tom Babin. If you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribed to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

00:58:59:13 - 00:59:25:25
John Simmerman
And again, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns channel, once again, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Super easy to do. Just click on Active towns.org, click on the support tab at that top of the page, and there's several different options including becoming a Patreon supporter. Again. Reminder patrons do get early and have free access to all my video content, but you can also make a contribution to the nonprofit advocates for Healthy Communities.

00:59:25:25 - 00:59:51:18
John Simmerman
This is the venue that I am able to, do pro bono work and do some travel and really help communities out, becoming more activity friendly places. Again, thank you so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers and again sending a huge thank you out to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patreon.

00:59:51:19 - 01:00:01:19
John Simmerman
Buy me a coffee YouTube. Super! Thanks! As well as making contributions to the nonprofit. Every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated. Thank you all so much.