Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:07 - 00:00:26:23
Prof Donald Shoup
So I think that that that we're undoing is beginning to undo the damage that we've done for a long time. And then what cities do remove all street parking requirements. We can see what happened. I think the example that I liked best was in Champaign, Illinois, at a student area right next to the campus that they previously required one space, parking space for apartment for, for many years.

00:00:26:23 - 00:00:50:06
Prof Donald Shoup
And then they just removed the number of other parking spaces for a apartment fell for 1.05. You know, the the minimum was for one, and they provided 1.05, because it's sometimes easier if you're if there's a parking lot, you cannot get exactly one space for a apartment. But it went down to point three. Well, that's a 70% decrease.

00:00:50:08 - 00:01:21:02
Prof Donald Shoup
Or what was the number of parking spaces per acre? This is a, acre of the parcel, that fell by, parking space fell by 70%. The number of parking spaces per acre fell by 48% of the apartments per acre. Rose by 79%. So, apartments replaced parking spaces. People replaced cars simply because you let it happen.

00:01:21:04 - 00:01:29:17
Prof Donald Shoup
Nothing wrong with that. Nothing was encouraged. It just says you could do what you want with parking. And that led to a lot more housing.

00:01:29:20 - 00:01:55:10
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman, and that is Professor Donald Shoup, the “Shoup Dogg.” Professor emeritus at UCLA and the author of The High Cost of Free Parking. We are touching base with Don to see what he has been up to. And, and. Nerding out on parking reform and really reflecting on, the last four years or so of.

00:01:55:13 - 00:02:17:04
John Simmerman
Amazing things that have happened in the area of, parking reform. Before we dive into this. Episode, I just want to remind everybody, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns channel. Please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns ambassador. It's easy to do. Just click on the link Active towns.org and navigate up to the support tab at the top of the page.

00:02:17:11 - 00:02:27:23
John Simmerman
Again, thank you so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And let's get right to it. With Donald Shoup.

00:02:27:26 - 00:02:32:15
John Simmerman
Professor Donald Shoup, thank you so much for joining me once again on the Active Towns podcast.

00:02:32:17 - 00:02:34:19
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, thanks for inviting me, Don.

00:02:34:19 - 00:02:41:05
John Simmerman
I would love to have you just give a really quick, introduction to where the audience who the heck is Donald?

00:02:41:05 - 00:02:42:01
Prof Donald Shoup
You?

00:02:42:03 - 00:02:43:18
John Simmerman
Well, I'm.

00:02:43:18 - 00:03:09:02
Prof Donald Shoup
A retired professor from the University of California, Los Angeles. I was born in Long Beach, but didn't stay very long. I move I think the most notable second of my life is that, my father was the Navy, which is why I was born in Long Beach. And his ship was transferred to, Honolulu at 1940.

00:03:09:09 - 00:03:18:22
Prof Donald Shoup
So my earliest memory of life was the attack on Pearl Harbor. And so life has been comparatively calm ever since.

00:03:18:24 - 00:03:43:07
John Simmerman
Yeah. That's right, that's right. Well, and I used to live in, in Honolulu. I used to live in Hawaii. But I'm originally from Southern California. I'm originally from Los Angeles. I'm a fourth generation Los Angelino. I think my ancestors and I, my extended family, they first arrived in the Los Angeles area right around the turn of the century, in the 1800s.

00:03:43:09 - 00:03:59:26
John Simmerman
And, so I have deep, deep roots in Los Angeles, and and I love Los Angeles. And the fact that you were born in Long Beach is significant because you have a nickname that is tied to another famous person who was born in Long Beach.

00:03:59:29 - 00:04:26:28
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, the most famous, person, born in Long Beach is Snoop Dogg. And, I've piggybacked on him. The students call me, Snoop Dogg. And, a little less, a little bit less. Sounded good. As they say, what I teach is to shoot dogma. Record dogma is not the thing.

00:04:26:28 - 00:04:37:27
Prof Donald Shoup
Do you want to be attached to. But, I say yes. Snoop Dogg and I were both born at Long Beach. Yeah, that has to count for something.

00:04:37:29 - 00:05:04:09
John Simmerman
Yeah, it's a I think I find it very endearing. And I find the fact that, Snoop Dogg has seemed to have really been benefiting from a resurgence in popularity, along with the Olympics. I mean, he was all over the screen on the Olympics there in Paris. And of course, you know, as well as the run up and the and, you know, for, the Olympics that'll be happening in Los Angeles in 2028.

00:05:04:11 - 00:05:10:24
John Simmerman
And so, every time I see him on screen, I think of you as well.

00:05:10:26 - 00:05:19:21
Prof Donald Shoup
And he is great, except when you read the lyrics, they're a bit, a bit too much.

00:05:19:24 - 00:05:57:21
John Simmerman
They are a bit too much. And it is, it is funny and it is quite endearing and, and a bit of pop over to your website here, which, by the way, is Shoot Dog and that's two dogs, dot com. And so I love that there is that hat tip to it. And you just mentioned to you about, the, the shoop dogma and the fact that you don't necessarily want to be attached to, you know, the thoughts that you're doing in the you're thinking about, don't necessary wish to be attached to a dogma versus a doctrine.

00:05:57:24 - 00:06:14:18
John Simmerman
And that's exactly what you bring up. And you talk about in this, this paper or this, you know, this chapter that you have, are working on here. Talk a little bit about that for people who may not be super, super familiar with the difference between a dogma and a doctrine, well.

00:06:14:21 - 00:07:00:12
Prof Donald Shoup
Somebody who's dogmatic is somebody who won't listen to anybody else. They think they, for whatever they say is true, is the that and just can't be challenged, whereas a doctrine which sounds a little bit, similar, but it is different. It's, it's, it's, a, a well-organized, way of thinking, but is open for challenge, that you're, you're almost eager to have it challenged because I think I've learned a lot from the students who didn't agree with what I was saying, and, especially from the far left.

00:07:00:14 - 00:07:25:26
Prof Donald Shoup
But I've, some of the best students from from the far left and trying to convince them about what I say is, is very healthy, as I've learned. I've changed my mind many times. Of course, everybody changes their minds, but I have adapted over well. I think the first article that I wrote that had Parker get it, it was a 1970.

00:07:25:28 - 00:08:02:29
Prof Donald Shoup
So I, I've had to, to, refine what I'm thinking and I've, I've learned a lot. I think that. Yes, a doctrine is something that you work on and try to do the best you can that, provides as much evidence you care. I mean, that's extremely important, of course, is to get evidence. And if the evidence, refutes what you have been said, you have to adapt to what you know, but your your say so a doctorate is much more flexible and a forward looking or a dogma is dogmatic.

00:08:03:03 - 00:08:08:23
Prof Donald Shoup
It's it's, it's, unchallengeable. Yeah, yeah.

00:08:08:25 - 00:08:26:28
John Simmerman
And, and I do want to stick with this, particular, chapter and the upcoming, the Shoop Doctrine that is, being edited by Daniel Hess, with the Rutledge, publishing. Do we know when this is going to be coming out.

00:08:27:00 - 00:08:57:23
Prof Donald Shoup
Or sometime next year? I, I don't know what word of that. It's I, Daniel has, as a former student of his, now a professor at the University of Buffalo, as he has, arranged for chapters to be, I think, about 33 chapters. All all the Shoop Doctrine. I've been a, he asked me to edit them, so I, I feel as, like editing 33 eulogies of yourself.

00:08:57:26 - 00:09:02:01
Prof Donald Shoup
So I want to get some right? Yeah, yeah.

00:09:02:01 - 00:09:32:23
John Simmerman
And and, it was wonderful to see the this, this chapter come out. And I thank you very much for sending this, ahead to me. To be able to read this. It in many ways, it reads like a very short little synopsis of your classic book. The high cost of free parking. For those who may not be familiar with the book, I do encourage everybody to to listen to our first episode, from back in season one.

00:09:32:23 - 00:10:06:25
John Simmerman
In fact, let's pull that up here. Right here on screen is, way back in season one. On episode 43, you and I talk a little bit more about your early days and, you know, the formation of your career and how you sort of got to this stage of being the one of the most or the foremost experts in the area of parking and reimagining, parking and the need for parking reforms, which is, you know, what we have here on screen about his three foundational, parking reform, things.

00:10:06:25 - 00:10:31:18
John Simmerman
And so I'll, I'll encourage people to, to go ahead and, and listen to that. But but talk a little bit about that foundational book that, you know, sort of culminated the early years of your career and that formation of, an absolute classic book. It is a lot to digest at 750 some odd pages, I think.

00:10:31:20 - 00:10:40:09
John Simmerman
And but it's a delightful book because you're a delightful writer. Talk a little bit about that book. And as an introduction to folks who may not be familiar with it.

00:10:40:12 - 00:11:12:04
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, for a long time, nobody could understand how I could be interested in parking. It seemed so pedestrian. That, they just couldn't think that there could be anything important to say about parking. Everybody's. It, I hope, all of your, your your listeners and readers, are parked now, if they have a car, the average car is parked 95% of the time.

00:11:12:07 - 00:11:38:19
Prof Donald Shoup
So I thought that, I could divide the field that everybody else could have the 5% of the time, the cars are moving, and I could look at the 95% of the time that cars are parked. I mean, parking is the link between, driving and everything else in life. It is extremely important. The single biggest user of land in any city.

00:11:38:19 - 00:12:03:06
Prof Donald Shoup
There's more, square feet of land for parking, because for the footprint of housing or commerce or anything else, and most people park free wherever they go. So what got me interested in this is how could something like that be so much of up on such valuable land? And it's free to the user. You know what economists say?

00:12:03:07 - 00:12:34:22
Prof Donald Shoup
There's something wrong there that, people are not paying for what they're using. The how how how does that happen? Well, I guess I could back up and say, you know, suppose, if what? The car was invented just the near the birth of the car that, say, 1900 Henry Ford, Georgie Rockefeller had asked you, how can city planning increase the demand for fuel?

00:12:34:24 - 00:13:05:24
Prof Donald Shoup
Ad cars? So I thought, well, here are three things to look at as that, divide the city into zones. Is housing here or jobs there, or shopping someplace else. So the have to be allowed to travel between the zones and then, limited the, the, the density of the zones have single family housing, minimum lot size, maximum height levels.

00:13:05:27 - 00:13:30:19
Prof Donald Shoup
Single family housing for most of all housing to spread the city out, increase the demand for for driving and third require ample off street parking everywhere. Well, that would be a terrific, a benefit for car makers. Oil producers.

00:13:30:21 - 00:13:34:06
John Simmerman
Yeah. And it was, it turned out it was.

00:13:34:08 - 00:13:56:26
Prof Donald Shoup
Right. Well, I think planners did mean to enrich the car of the oil industry. But our city planners have done that. I think we built a terrific mistake right from the beginning. So for 100 years, we've had this car centric, planet as a very hard to. Just like you are doing it if you think. What if we had not done that?

00:13:56:26 - 00:14:21:03
Prof Donald Shoup
Suppose we had always, charged for car parking at the right price of the by the right price of curb parking, I mean, the lowest price you could charge and still have 1 or 2 open spaces on every block. So wherever you drove, you'd always see 1 or 2 open spaces. They wouldn't be free, but it would be the lowest price the city could charge is still have that result.

00:14:21:06 - 00:14:42:29
Prof Donald Shoup
Yeah, yeah. So if you if you did that at the beginning, do you charge the right price for curb parking? Spent the revenue on public services on the beach road blocks. Then I think the world would work a lot better. And we would live a lot better. Or that, we never had better Bob Barker performance.

00:14:43:01 - 00:15:23:15
Prof Donald Shoup
We never said that you can't build a house without two parking spaces or an apartment building without two parking spaces for a park, but we had left that to to the markets, that we let prices do the planning for parking. Not just, city planners having hundreds of land uses saying that, that say there are nine different land uses for adult land use for adult bookshops, adult massage parlors, adult theaters, sex novelty shops and planners have pretended that they know exactly how many parking spaces are needed for every one of those.

00:15:23:18 - 00:15:48:19
Prof Donald Shoup
So maybe planning isn't such a uninteresting profession, but that is for everything. For every and every time a new land use comes along. Like a nail salon, they have to create a parking require. But say, for parking spaces per thousand square feet for a nail salon or two parking spaces, per body piercing artist and a body piercing studio.

00:15:48:21 - 00:16:21:13
Prof Donald Shoup
Planners don't know anything about this. All they know they have to provide a parking requirement. So we've made terrific mistakes for the past hundred years. And I think we're beginning just beginning to, to undo those errors where some cities, have removed all their party before. I say, like I said, that was that was, one of the biggest cities to start removing hundreds of large uses for parking requirements, and they just cancel them.

00:16:21:16 - 00:16:46:27
Prof Donald Shoup
The just think of something that that has been added for for 40 or 50 years. You keep adding more. It's like, barnacles on a ship's hull that each one slows the ship down and, increases the fuel consumption. You have to have the ball scraped off. So I think removing the all street parking requirements is like scraping the barnacles off of a ship.

00:16:46:28 - 00:17:10:23
Prof Donald Shoup
And it doesn't cost anything, and it saves a lot of time for the planners because, I've heard it from media agencies. They said that over a quarter of a percent of all the time that they have it dealing with development is dealing with the parking requirements. No subsidies. They just don't have any parking requirements anymore. It just save what?

00:17:10:24 - 00:17:33:12
Prof Donald Shoup
Buffalo was the first big city that removed all street parking requirements and replaced it with one sentence, saying there's no requirement for parking at every land use. So I think that that that we're undoing is beginning to undo the damage that we've done for a long time. And then for the cities, do we've all street parking requirements. We can see what happened.

00:17:33:12 - 00:18:02:19
Prof Donald Shoup
I think the example that I like best was in Champaign, Illinois, as a student, the area right next to the campus that they previously required one space, parking space for a part, but for for many years. And then they just removed it and they looked at what, the two, two planters at, to all the faculty at the University a little I looked at what happened, the, the number of apartments.

00:18:02:19 - 00:18:29:24
Prof Donald Shoup
Yes. There you go. The number of, our parking spaces per apartment fell from 1.05. You know, the the the minimum was one, they provided 1.05 because it's easier if you're if there's a parking lot, you can't get exactly one space per apartment. But it went down to point three. Well, that's a 70% decrease. But we went further and look.

00:18:29:26 - 00:19:00:20
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, what was the number of parking spaces per acre? This is a, acre of the parcel, that fell by, parking space fell by 70%. The number of parking spaces for acre fell by 48% of the apartments per acre. Rose by 79%. So, apartments replaced parking spaces. People replaced cars simply because you let it happen.

00:19:00:22 - 00:19:09:10
Prof Donald Shoup
Nothing. Nothing was encouraged. It just says you're you could do what you want with parking. And that led to a lot more housing.

00:19:09:12 - 00:19:30:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Now we're we're staring at this image here. I've been lingering here on this. This is your the landing page for your book out on my bookshop. I do have a bookshop, associated with active towns, dot org and the Active Towns channel. So all of my guests that have that are here on the podcast, I try to put your books out there.

00:19:30:09 - 00:19:41:22
John Simmerman
And so we've got the high cost of free parking. You mentioned in the 1970s you started writing about this extensively, and then you, published this book. What year did this book, first publish.

00:19:41:24 - 00:20:09:23
Prof Donald Shoup
2005. I was 67 and it was published as a people had not paid much attention to a lot of articles, so I did I was just working steadily and, you know, looking at what happened and why, that weather was all put together, saying that at least the academics tribute, there was a I said, well, he's right.

00:20:09:26 - 00:20:16:15
Prof Donald Shoup
And I, I've written a lot since then, of course, but but I in.

00:20:16:15 - 00:20:34:12
John Simmerman
Fact, your follow up book is, parking in the city. And in this book you go in and you tell a lot of the success stories and a lot of the learnings, that took place since the, the publication of the High cost of Free Parking back in 2005.

00:20:34:15 - 00:20:58:00
Prof Donald Shoup
Yes. There were a lot of interesting things that, people had written. And so I was the editor of that book, and I advised people to write, say, for example, in Albany, New York, they had a typical arrangement of you probably have it where you live that if you if you have meters, where do you live.

00:20:58:03 - 00:21:00:09
John Simmerman
In, in Austin, Texas, as a matter of fact.

00:21:00:11 - 00:21:25:25
Prof Donald Shoup
Oh, really? You're at, well, you know, Austin is now the biggest city that has removed all this parking requirements. But when they have parking meters, that's typical that I have a two hour beater. Or do you say be a dollar an hour? And that after two hours. Yeah. You have to leave or that, but parking meters for advantage.

00:21:25:26 - 00:21:51:05
Prof Donald Shoup
They were bitterly opposed by people. They said that's like a, infertile combination of an alarm clock and a slot machine. But can you put your body into the hope you get back before your time runs out? Well, for all the they did it a few other cities have done, do they? They still charge a dollar an hour for the first two hours, but then the third hour is $2 an hour.

00:21:51:08 - 00:22:18:10
Prof Donald Shoup
The fourth hour is $4 an hour. So you can stay longer if you want, but you know you'll be paying more. So it is still creates the incentive for turnover, but there's no penalty. You decide. When they started that most people still left before two hours, but some people, stayed on. So it's much more flexible and it's embrace it more money.

00:22:18:12 - 00:22:37:07
Prof Donald Shoup
Because some people, they get held up or they forget or whatever the reason is, they don't come back within two hours. So they're, they're I, I can't remember how, but it was there were a 30 or 40 chapters, but there are a lot of small things like that. And I think, there are other simple things.

00:22:37:07 - 00:23:05:24
Prof Donald Shoup
So I don't think, Austin does this when I have a progressive of, parking prices, but also progressive parking fines, that some cities for the first, time you're parked without paying and you get a ticket that's awarded so that you've, you have a paid, this is this is a warning. The next ticket will be $40.

00:23:05:26 - 00:23:29:25
Prof Donald Shoup
The, third ticket is, $60. The next one after that is $80. So it for people who occasionally make a mistake, the they'll get back in time. They're there. They just get a warning. But if you're a, a serial violator, it'll be very expensive. And I think this is important to some people.

00:23:29:25 - 00:23:56:04
Prof Donald Shoup
Six of the, parking tickets or just, cost of doing business because, as you know, the many times you've overstayed, you come back here, you don't have a ticket. The tickets. You seem to get tickets too often, but I bet you said. Is that only about 5% of violations get ticketed. And some people realize that they think, well, is that worth paying?

00:23:56:04 - 00:24:04:17
Prof Donald Shoup
Because you're unlikely that you'll be ticketed. But now people, the serial violators will realize that's not a good idea.

00:24:04:19 - 00:24:25:04
John Simmerman
Right? Right. And and that brings us back to, your your chapter that you have here and which are really, you know, talking about is, you know, making sure that we get, these three reforms. And that's what you mentioned here. You channel this and say that you know, the three things that we kind of need to do sort of at this big level.

00:24:25:06 - 00:24:46:19
John Simmerman
And then you can dive in and do more fine tuning later. Is number one, remove off street parking requirements. You just mentioned that as well. Number two, charge the right price for that on street parking. And then the third thing, and this is a really, really important thing, and I loved your example of right there in Southern California, Pasadena.

00:24:46:20 - 00:24:59:20
John Simmerman
I used to work right on Colorado. There in downtown Pasadena. Is then that third thing is you take that money that is collected and you put it to work right there in that neighborhood.

00:24:59:22 - 00:25:33:13
Prof Donald Shoup
Yes. Well, nobody wants to, to pay for curb parking. Said, Pasadena, was, the best example. But Austin has very good examples as well. But in Pasadena, it was one of the the grandest shopping areas in the United States of the 1920s that, rich people from the Midwest would come to spend the winter and in Southern California and Pasadena was one of the the nicest places to stay in there.

00:25:33:16 - 00:26:04:13
Prof Donald Shoup
And then, they they made a big mistake in 1929 could you think is a worthless days. You break in transportation in 1929. Is that or Colorado Boulevard? They widened the street, 14ft on each side to put a, a light rail line down the center, you know, trolley car, just just as cars for, displacing all of the street railways, they installed Wild on Colorado Boulevard.

00:26:04:15 - 00:26:29:24
Prof Donald Shoup
So they had to move the facades back by, 14ft on each side, in 1929. So, some of them, just demolished the first of, the 14ft and put on a new facade. Others did. A wonderful example of historic preservation is they took 14ft out of the middle of the building and moved the front back.

00:26:29:27 - 00:26:56:23
Prof Donald Shoup
So it is, is the the a perfect example of the very best of commercial architecture? Yeah. 1920 da I don't think you'll find a better year for, street facades than that. But then the depression came along of the World War two. And after that, everybody had cars. There wasn't any parking, and all passed the data.

00:26:56:25 - 00:27:26:22
Prof Donald Shoup
So it decayed for, for decades. They were wonderful buildings in terrible condition. Right. And then the city wanted to put in parking meters, because the, the there was just two our lives, the the the the merchants had their employees parked up the curb, move their cars every two hours and complained to the city that there was no parking for their customers.

00:27:26:24 - 00:28:06:13
Prof Donald Shoup
So the city wanted to put the meters of the virtues of the, the, Latino reserve or. No way, the drive out the the the few customers we have, many of the buildings were vacant, all the ground floor. So the the mayor, Rick Cole, who was, yes, Mayor Rick Cole, he went into a meeting and he just he just spontaneously said, if we put in the parking meters, we'll spend all the meter money to rebuild your sidewalks, put in street, trees, historic street furniture, clean up the alleys, the birches.

00:28:06:13 - 00:28:30:06
Prof Donald Shoup
And everybody said, well, why did you tell us that? Let's run them till midnight. Let's run them on Sunday. Let's charge a high price. And the only difference was if we put in the parking meters, you get the money? Not individually, but, the the the the neighborhood, the commercial neighborhood gallops above it, and so they, they you could borrow money against, beta revenue.

00:28:30:06 - 00:28:36:00
Prof Donald Shoup
So they borrowed $5 billion and they completely redid all the public facilities. Wow.

00:28:36:07 - 00:28:39:00
John Simmerman
What what year was that? Done?

00:28:39:02 - 00:28:45:06
Prof Donald Shoup
1982, I think. Okay. Yes.

00:28:45:07 - 00:28:56:21
John Simmerman
1982 82. Okay. So that that was that predates when I was working there because I was actually working, in Pasadena on Colorado Boulevard in 1991.

00:28:56:23 - 00:29:26:21
Prof Donald Shoup
Oh, wait, a it had revived by that. Yes, that is this. Many people say, oh, the parking meters will, well, well, we'll kill our best businesses, but the sales tax revenue, which is a measure of of business activity, tripled in the next five years. If you put in parking meters that, got turned over and the spaces were, were for the customers, then once the city had done.

00:29:26:21 - 00:30:05:01
Prof Donald Shoup
But only the city could do, which is to fix up all the public facilities, then the property owners had an incentive to restore their buildings. It's expensive to restore a historic building. But the rents then, allowed, historic preservation. Dallas was the most successful places to visit in Southern California, southern California, 30,000 people on an average weekend come just a walk around at a place that some of my students said their parish would not let them get off the bus or Colorado Boulevard because it was such a slum.

00:30:05:03 - 00:30:14:14
John Simmerman
Well, and I will say this in the early 1990s, it's nowhere near it was nowhere near as nice as it is now.

00:30:14:16 - 00:30:30:25
Prof Donald Shoup
I'm sorry. It was. It is a 1992 that it happened. That's right. You were about the time that it it wasn't it wasn't, a glamorous place at it. It was. It was. No, not at all. Yeah. Have you been back?

00:30:30:27 - 00:30:39:04
John Simmerman
Yes, I, I was just going to say I've been back. And it's a delightful place now compared to what it was like in the early 1990s when I was there. Yeah.

00:30:39:07 - 00:31:06:19
Prof Donald Shoup
That. Yeah, that's exactly it. Very. It happened very quickly. So I think we're getting back to where we started the revenue return is the key, right to charging the right price for car parking. If the city wants to keep it for the general fund, nobody's interested in it. But if they know that the money will go to spend for public services on the bigger blocks, they'll say we want that.

00:31:06:19 - 00:31:25:26
Prof Donald Shoup
And now they're for other, for parking benefit districts in, in, Pasadena. What had been if what you were there was, South Lake Avenue was was the, glamorous area and then South Lake Avenue said, can we have parking meters?

00:31:25:26 - 00:31:35:27
John Simmerman
Right, right. Yeah. Now, you mentioned Mayor Rick Cole. It's not the same recall who's now the city council member.

00:31:36:00 - 00:31:46:02
Prof Donald Shoup
Yes, that's right. He had a great career, spreading these ideas. He was the the Bay area, 1992.

00:31:46:09 - 00:31:49:08
John Simmerman
I had no clue he had that background. Yeah.

00:31:49:09 - 00:32:19:26
Prof Donald Shoup
Had he? He then became the city manager of Isaac Azusa. And then he became the city manager of Ventura, California. About, you know, 30 or 40 miles north of Los Angeles, all the coast. And he, introduced parking benefit districts there that, that the the Ventura had tried parking meters of the 1950s. And, the people rebelled.

00:32:19:26 - 00:32:44:08
Prof Donald Shoup
So was the, the, the that they had a recall of the city council, a vote to recall the one. And Eddie, who had voted for the parking meters, were booted off the city council. So it was in the DNA of Ventura that we can't have parking meters. But what? Recall became the city manager there. He brought in the idea of a parking benefit district, which works very well.

00:32:44:11 - 00:33:06:16
John Simmerman
And of course, I know Rick because he, took over, and was at the helm of CNU for a short period of time, coming out of the pandemic and, our, our first gathering in 2021, which was one of those hybrid gatherings, I think it was 2021. And, and he was at the helm there for a short period of time.

00:33:06:16 - 00:33:20:00
John Simmerman
And now he's, once again, in politics there in city council, he just was voted in and he's, on city council there in Pasadena once again. So he's come home. That's great.

00:33:20:03 - 00:33:49:12
Prof Donald Shoup
Yes. But Austin has some very good examples as well. In fact. Yes, the Austin was one of the first, parking benefit districts that was, established after the the book came out. There was a young woman, she had, a better, master's student at the, University of Texas. It all started as she read the book or maybe was a fine.

00:33:49:16 - 00:34:15:22
Prof Donald Shoup
Not the whole book. Who wants to read 752 pages? But enough of us. I did, and she, she just as, a recent graduate of the University of Texas, she, applied to the, state Environmental Protection Agency, together a grant to set up a parking benefit district. Right next to the University of, of Texas.

00:34:15:27 - 00:34:37:29
Prof Donald Shoup
And they gave it to her, and, set it up. They repaired sidewalks and the the they brought a sort of a student, area, west of the campus. But they did beautiful work on, rebuilding the sidewalks, which had been some of the the streets didn't even have sidewalk on the full length of the, of the street.

00:34:38:06 - 00:34:48:10
Prof Donald Shoup
It was all just looking thing. So they they did wonderful things and then they, they have, 3 or 4 more parking benefit districts in Austin.

00:34:48:12 - 00:35:13:09
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And, this particular organization, the Parking Reform Network, also, in the wake of the success of your book and you barnstorming around, the world talking about parking and talking about the need for parking reforms, this organization, launched. What year did that? Did the end, get started?

00:35:13:12 - 00:35:15:17
Prof Donald Shoup
Oh, I think it was about three years ago.

00:35:15:19 - 00:35:41:04
John Simmerman
Okay, so about three years ago. And what's really great, Tony Jordan is, is part of this organization really heading this up is that they are really kind of keeping tabs on the the plethora of places that are now, getting on board. You mentioned Austin, Texas a couple of times. Yes. In terms of the parking benefit districts, that was years ago that that was set up.

00:35:41:07 - 00:36:06:28
John Simmerman
But then just recently, as you mentioned, we did, see City Council move forward with more meaningful, parking reforms that are in you mentioned that were were in the largest cities, in the nation. We are the 10th largest city from a population perspective, in the nation right now. And so it was very, very encouraging to see, city council, you know, move forward with some of these meaningful, parking reforms.

00:36:07:02 - 00:36:34:24
John Simmerman
We have plenty of other land use stuff that we need to address because it goes hand in hand. The parking reforms and also the land use code reforms that need to take place. Talk a little bit about, the parking, reform network and the role that they're serving in helping promote and keep keep your work here, you know, the legacy of what you have done and dedicated your career, how these guys are helping to push this forward and keep it on the forefront of people's minds.

00:36:34:26 - 00:37:04:24
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, the president is, Tony Jordan, who is, a bundle of energy. The he, he became, what they call a superstar. For a long time ago, the he was born in Wilmington, down in Los Angeles. But, that's the Long Beach. He had moved to, Portland, Oregon, but he came back to, on Thanksgiving every year.

00:37:04:27 - 00:37:34:06
Prof Donald Shoup
The he called and he said, well, can we meet? And so we had been meeting the week before Thanksgiving for, oh, maybe ten years. But he, he was so and, engaged in parking reforms. It was it was incredible to be. He was so. And Susie Astic, but he wanted to, created an organization to help people like him get together, to to cooperate.

00:37:34:10 - 00:38:19:19
Prof Donald Shoup
So he established the parking a reform network. Other people, not just around the US, but around the world, who somehow, they they have this ad, Susie, out for parking, which is, of course, is a fringe, fringe group that is, you don't know many other people who are as interested in parking as you are, but he put these, people in contact with each other, and they, has one of the wonderful things they do is he has a great map showing all the cities that have removed, all their parking requirements or parking requirements as part of the city.

00:38:19:22 - 00:38:56:02
Prof Donald Shoup
So, so, for the people in Connecticut are interested in partial reform. They, they get in touch with the Parker reform network. It's a way to, it's not like a Communist party or it is. I like that, but it's like a party. That's right. It's like a party. That, of the political, sense is a the, the the if you're if you're in Austin, you well, you want to get in touch with everybody else in Austin who was a Parker or butcher or the Parker reform Network.

00:38:56:06 - 00:39:17:15
Prof Donald Shoup
And they have this wonderful map that would shows all the cities have removed all their parks and reforms. Many more cities have removed parking requirements downtown or in part of town. But, I think there was a, a town in Texas maybe 60 miles east of also, is there a town called Bastrop or something like that?

00:39:17:18 - 00:39:20:21
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, it's like within an hour's drive from here. Yeah.

00:39:20:21 - 00:39:32:28
Prof Donald Shoup
Bastrop. That was one of the first cities in the country to remove all street parking. So if you want to get in contact with, like minded people, this is the way to do it. Yeah.

00:39:33:00 - 00:40:16:02
John Simmerman
Yeah. Fantastic. And the. You mentioned something there too, that I think is really, really important is that, you know, it kind of seems fringe. It kind of seems like, oh, you know, these crazy people that are thinking about parking all the time. I think the best way for us to really get our, our hands around and understand how, especially off street parking, how, pervasive it is and how we let it get away is looking at some, you know, some photographs and some images, and you sent along a couple of, really powerful images that I'd like for us to kind of zoom, zoom in on and, and take a look at, because

00:40:16:02 - 00:40:39:02
John Simmerman
I think that a picture really does tell a thousand words. And when we when we zoom in on this image right here and we see the dramatic difference that happens in a space from just two years 2020 to 2022. Tell us more about this particular, series of images that you sent along for us.

00:40:39:04 - 00:41:07:16
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, many people say that when you're talking about Park River. We're not Amsterdam. One day there was Amsterdam. Until recently that, that was the first city I ever visited as Europe in 1962. And there were cars everywhere like this, after World War two, the, the country, you know, began to thrive, that they could buy cars as, of course, they needed parking.

00:41:07:24 - 00:41:39:26
Prof Donald Shoup
So they were parking all the streets and square were filled up with cars, historic squares, that were for people, became parking lots. And it was very hard at the beginning to say, well, no, that we're not going to allow you to, to park here. But once they began to to tear out the squares, have, you know, wonderful.

00:41:39:28 - 00:41:57:23
Prof Donald Shoup
Downtown, places for people then then the they began taking away more curb parking, as the picture you just showed showed. Well, we're not allowing any parking on the street. Well, this further up. What is this?

00:41:57:26 - 00:42:14:01
John Simmerman
Is this is the this is the Atlanta one where you see the image above is, of course, the old, Atlanta grid. And then the image below is, well, now we have plenty of parking.

00:42:14:03 - 00:42:39:00
Prof Donald Shoup
Yes. It's just tragic what we have done. We've lost so many wonderful buildings. Because if if, if every new building has to have, you know, say maybe four spaces per thousand square feet, who knows what the right number is? The planners have no idea. Because especially because the the curb parking is free, that, that it's all jammed up, and it looks weird.

00:42:39:01 - 00:43:08:16
Prof Donald Shoup
We don't. We have a parking shortage. Everybody thinks about a parking shortage. Rather than the mispricing of the parking that we have. So if you, if you want to, build anything new, it has to have plenty of Wall Street for sure. As the old buildings don't last forever. But if you want to, if you want to, you if you are there any older buildings left of that down and that boy.

00:43:08:16 - 00:43:13:08
John Simmerman
Is sure doesn't look like it. Yeah. And I mean, that's one of the huge tragedies, right?

00:43:13:10 - 00:43:14:02
Prof Donald Shoup
The one that.

00:43:14:02 - 00:43:18:21
John Simmerman
Is the one. The one in blue. Yeah. He did identify the one in blue.

00:43:18:21 - 00:43:44:28
Prof Donald Shoup
So suppose that, that if, if, if you're, if you own the building and you want to change the use or maybe expand it, you have to demolish nearby buildings. Yeah. The because we're not going to let you open a new building unless it has plenty of off street parking. So but but I 66 happens so slowly. So, so of a 100 years difference.

00:43:44:28 - 00:44:01:12
Prof Donald Shoup
Something like that. But but there's creeping normalcy. It's just it's like something happens gradually. Like the temperature increases very slowly. You don't notice it. And I don't think the people at that ladder, realized what was happening.

00:44:01:15 - 00:44:30:21
John Simmerman
Yeah. And you alluded to that, you know, just there you had said, you know, who knows what the right number of parking spots is, if there really is even a right number. And you talk about this in that chapter that you put together for the doctrines is that it's a pseudoscience. And what I find fascinating about your book, your book, of course, was published by.

00:44:30:24 - 00:44:54:18
Prof Donald Shoup
The American Planning Association. Yeah. It's like, a book was, published or authored by, a Catholic bishop. And it was blessed by the Pope. Ads saying that this is terrible, that that we made huge mistakes, and yet nothing much happened for a long time.

00:44:54:20 - 00:45:26:02
John Simmerman
But it is happening now, which is really super, super encouraging to see, you know, when you reflect back. And we talked about this a little bit in 2020, but it's good for us to talk about it again. Now here the, the, the end of 2024 and going into 2025, when you look back and you see this momentum that has been gathering and is now getting up to speed, it's got to be very, very gratifying for you.

00:45:26:04 - 00:45:41:12
John Simmerman
And, are you surprised at all or what are what are some of the thoughts that you have based on, you know, the momentum that you're now seeing, with this parking reform movement?

00:45:41:14 - 00:46:04:09
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, I thought things would happen much faster, that, that the, the odd thing is that it took much longer to happen than I thought it would, but it's now happening much faster than I thought it could. Okay. So that is a surprise. And, you know, other people have asked me, well, how what do you think about this?

00:46:04:09 - 00:46:20:24
Prof Donald Shoup
As I say, how did it happen? I think is because of of perseverance, longevity. So I think if if I didn't have both of those, that I wouldn't have seen much happening.

00:46:20:26 - 00:46:44:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have, a couple of, images here on screen of, of, Hope the poster with, former President Barack Obama and, an image of you hope to hope for parking reform. Yeah, it's it's been gratifying for me in the past decade or so that I've been really diving deeply into this.

00:46:44:07 - 00:47:06:20
John Simmerman
I guess it's more than a decade now, getting closer to 15 years now that I've been really diving deep into the this urbanism side of the built environment and how it improves and helps, shape our built environments to encourage more walking and biking. And so it's been so gratifying for me to see more and more cities embracing parking reform.

00:47:06:22 - 00:47:20:15
Prof Donald Shoup
Yeah. So this this image on the right was from one of your competing podcast, the Parker Podcast. There are several podcasts that are dedicated only to Parker. Yeah.

00:47:20:18 - 00:47:43:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. Well, and and we're we're a fun group of, urbanists that are out here. You know, trying to spread the message. And one of the most important things that I talk about so frequently is how do we break out of our bubble of, you know, people thinking about parking reform and built environment and urbanism and active transportation.

00:47:43:27 - 00:48:08:01
John Simmerman
And so because it's it's so important for our ideas to permeate outside of our quote unquote, urbanism and transportation bubbles and be able to permeate into, the zeitgeist of the community at large. And whenever I see things like that happening, it just makes me smile. And I have to think that it's the same for you to.

00:48:08:03 - 00:48:41:05
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, I think it's, one of the big things that of of, cause the change is, is active towns and, similar podcasts that, if, if there weren't any way to, to to get in front of an audience that I wouldn't have had much. But slot but active Telles is a wonderful, source for people who who are interested in cities and or open to new ideas.

00:48:41:07 - 00:49:13:19
John Simmerman
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. And, you know, one of the things that that I've been trying to do, especially recently, because when you and I last spoke in 2020, this was an audio only podcast. And so, you know, people are tuning in. I made the move over into, into video because I started to realize just how impactful and powerful it is, to be able to get the visual message out there in the audience is much greater and grander in many ways.

00:49:13:22 - 00:49:42:28
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about some of your fond memories of some of the, the videos that, you had been on and featured in. And I know there's a you've got a subset of your, your website that is called, Park Memories. And so I'm going to pull that up on screen here, and let you riff on, this concept of, of bringing this new piece to messages and, dogma or doctrines out to the masses through video.

00:49:43:00 - 00:50:20:07
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, I think, YouTube is a, a big change for, for everybody. And, and, just about anything you're interested, the, downward pressure on YouTube, it pops up on your television this great, that is YouTube. That, I've seen podcasts I'd forgotten about that the suddenly that obviously YouTube sort of, it, tries to figure out what you're interested in other than it feeds you those things, but it.

00:50:20:10 - 00:50:31:13
Prof Donald Shoup
I suppose maybe other people are interested in, urban planning, that I might pop up on, on their television screen so that that was a big surprise.

00:50:31:19 - 00:50:55:29
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and this one here, which is, cycling right now, is, Adam ruins things, and I. I can't remember what year what this was, but, this is a, had to be just, a bunch of fun for for you to be able to have, this particular platform on truTV profile. Your work.

00:50:56:00 - 00:50:59:06
John Simmerman
How cool is this?

00:50:59:09 - 00:51:27:25
Prof Donald Shoup
Yes, I, I, I confess I had not heard of Adam Cordova until he asked me to to be at his, one of his shows. And I did, his podcasts as well. It's, it was interesting that he asked me to to record something for his podcast. So he, he wrote the script for. But, I didn't like it, so I said, well, I want to say something else.

00:51:28:01 - 00:51:58:01
Prof Donald Shoup
He let me do it, and he he's he he's certainly a, a big part of, of the, urban sphere. In everything he does, he's got a, I've a, he's got a podcast, all the radio. I think that, as I said, somehow, students pick up all this much for the if it's if it's a cartoon, that if it's at a lecture.

00:51:58:04 - 00:52:23:21
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. What I find so endearing about that particular video, that Adam, you know, put together for you and, for the channel is, is how relatable that whole message was that that final, scene, you know, walking into the, into the, the the, the car salesman, lobby there and and all of that.

00:52:23:29 - 00:52:49:23
John Simmerman
I just that's what I mean by you trying to break outside of our bubble is being able to get into, you know, and bring people along so that they can understand, why parking reform is so necessary. And I mentioned earlier that, yes, I, I did read I didn't really read your book. I listened to it on audible, and and it is very, very entertaining.

00:52:49:23 - 00:53:16:03
John Simmerman
And I think that is one of the nice things about, the book that you, that you wrote is that you had to grab Ahold of a lot of complex ideas, and and there's numbers in there, and everything, but you had a way of writing it, which is incredibly approachable and quite entertaining as well. And I was noticing, too.

00:53:16:03 - 00:53:55:13
John Simmerman
And when I was reading, when I was reading the The doctrines, chapter that you're putting forward, for this, this upcoming book is that I see a lot of human behavior and understanding of human behavior in this talk a little bit about that. And that'll that'll probably be our final point is, is talking about how an understanding of human behavior has been so important and impactful in the work that you, have done as we try to move forward into this next generation of, of and continuing the progress with parking reform.

00:53:55:15 - 00:54:25:24
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, I'm not sure. I think the writing is the important thing. I try to be funny if I can the the that I did listen to a bit of the audible. I kind of measured listening to it for 16 hours. But the thing that surprised me was that there's no tables or charts, it's just the language and I think it comes across very well without looking at the statistics or the tables or anything like that.

00:54:25:27 - 00:54:57:07
Prof Donald Shoup
I couldn't believe it. But it seems to me that other people have said that, that they thought it was better than reading the book. It was me reading the books. They hired a, voice artist, I suppose. I, I suppose that it's it's been possible to, to write about parking, so much because everybody does it that everybody knows what park is like.

00:54:57:09 - 00:55:27:16
Prof Donald Shoup
Let's say one of the, one of the many, proposals that I, that I've made is called transit validation that, some, athletic events, that whenever you buy a ticket, say it to the Chase Stadium in San Francisco, you know, the tickets for athletic events, they have concerts as well. I think they're 19,000 seats. That's a stadium, but they have 900 parking spaces.

00:55:27:18 - 00:55:51:18
Prof Donald Shoup
But if whatever you buy a ticket, that ticket is a transit pass on the day of the event. Right. And it costs the of the stadium about $3 per ticket that they pay to the transit agency. The transit agency knows that they or other people want a ride to the, stadium. And they get paid for every person who rides to the stadium.

00:55:51:22 - 00:56:19:16
Prof Donald Shoup
So they, they have, nonstop busses from all around the, the area straight to the, to the, stadium and back. So people understand. Well, this has been I won't have to pay for parking at the stadium. As an off street parking there. There is a 100 and over $100 per event. Right. But but they could ride free on transit, and they didn't have to build a lot of parking spaces.

00:56:19:16 - 00:56:46:15
Prof Donald Shoup
There's just before the Covid build. So if there are no events at the stadium, they're not paying any. So the stadium doesn't pay anything for they if they had built a, 10,000 parking spaces, they'd have a gigantic debt service to pay for. So I think this like I like this transit validation. It's important that there's. You don't have to worry about traffic.

00:56:46:17 - 00:57:07:03
Prof Donald Shoup
When you arrive or when you leave. I saw a study. A little schedule said that 80% of people said they often leave, an event early to avoid the parking sharp. Right? Getting out of a park, getting out of a parking lot. But at the same time, everybody else is trying to get out of the parking lot is a nightmare.

00:57:07:06 - 00:57:29:08
Prof Donald Shoup
So they they missed the last part of it event and that they regret that. But if you have transit validation in lieu of parking, it is something that I think is such a, an easy thing to do. And whether it was published, people wrote to me from around the world saying, oh, we do this for everything.

00:57:29:13 - 00:57:48:27
Prof Donald Shoup
You know, in Australia, New Zealand, they wouldn't have an event that didn't have transit validation. Do you do that when you bought a ticket? You also have a parking pass. No, no, I mean a transit pass. So I think that's like kind of like have you heard of that at all? Do they do that at all?

00:57:48:29 - 00:58:07:07
John Simmerman
You know, I don't know if they do. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that irks me about like events, you're channeling the events and I'm going to pull up a photo here. That reminded me of of what we were talking about before we hit the record button, which was sidewalks. And so we'll we'll make this be our last thing is talking about sidewalks.

00:58:07:09 - 00:58:40:13
John Simmerman
Los Angeles, of course, is, is has been tapped, to host, three major, major events in the coming years. The Super Bowl coming up and also, the World Cup and then, the Olympics in 2028. And, what what irks me about some of the events, huge events that happen here in Austin is some of them, are very conducive to being able to use transit and walking and biking, anything other than a personal and private automobile.

00:58:40:16 - 00:59:08:09
John Simmerman
The events that I'm thinking of are like ACL, a big, huge music festival with which happens just walking distance from my house here. In the Zilker Park neighborhood, and then south by Southwest, where you have lots of the events happening in the downtown area, again, very accessible by walking, biking and transit and really having a car and trying to drive to these events in a car is quite inconvenient.

00:59:08:12 - 00:59:36:20
John Simmerman
But then there's and so I look at that as being these are wonderful events that are strategically located in venues, in areas that make sense. The one that irks me so much is when, like an artist, a musician will play at one of the far out venues where the only way that it's really feasible to get there is to drive, a personal automobile, out to this event.

00:59:36:20 - 00:59:55:12
John Simmerman
And, and it's just like, I'm irked by the artists choosing to play out at that venue when there's some close in venues that would have been walkable and bikeable. And I've gotten to the point where I haven't gone to go see an artist that I'd like to see because I don't want to drive. I just don't want to be an in that.

00:59:55:17 - 01:00:18:21
John Simmerman
I'd would prefer to to have that artist play, in, in a, a closed venue where I can ride my bike, too. I mean, that's, that's kind of where I'm out on that. I'm not sure how that addresses exactly what you or you were talking about, but it that's when you mentioned events. And, that certainly sparked something in me.

01:00:18:23 - 01:00:42:28
John Simmerman
Speaking of sparking something in me, I did want to sort of close this out by talking a little bit about, Los Angeles. There's sidewalks. The challenge that that, that the city has had for decades, the consent decree that that took place in 2015 for them to address the fact that so many of their sidewalks are in disarray.

01:00:43:00 - 01:01:09:07
John Simmerman
And we have on screen here, a beautiful image from, Alyssa's Wall, Alyssa Walker's new newsletter, torch. And this was, published a few weeks ago about, L.A. has a plan and, la mer. Karen Bass basically doing an executive director for the city to do a better job with their city planning, their capital improvement, plan.

01:01:09:10 - 01:01:27:08
John Simmerman
And actually putting that and doing planning in advance. And the challenge that is sidewalks. I know you're passionate about this as well done. So, why don't you, close this out by talking a little bit about LA's huge sidewalks, challenge?

01:01:27:10 - 01:02:12:28
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, you know, LA is known as the City of Broken Dreams. People would come to it, to make it big. You know, they have to prostitute themselves in every way. There's very unlikely that they'll make it. But it's also the city of Broken Sidewalks that, in 1972, the, city got a grant from the federal government during a recession to, repair broken sidewalks as a city very unwisely changed this code, saying that, previously, the property owners are responsible for maintaining the sidewalks in front of their property.

01:02:13:00 - 01:02:53:15
Prof Donald Shoup
The city said we will maintain we will pay for any sidewalk repairs. Of course, that would be politically very popular. Say, we're going to pay for the sidewalk for a friend. Well, what? Where will the money come from? Well, it came from the federal government for three years. I've done that. Dried up. The proposition 13, which is our property tax bill, was passed in 1978 and there was no money to pay for sidewalks, and they decayed for the next 40 years, very slowly, where it's, creeping normalcy, the slowly they began lifted.

01:02:53:17 - 01:03:22:08
Prof Donald Shoup
Until now, it was 1950. There were 4000 miles of broken sidewalks. There's about 40% of all the sidewalks were broken. Meaning that they didn't meet the, Americans with Disabilities Act policy is that it has to be, usable by somebody who's in a wheelchair or an a walker or whatever. But it happens so slowly. Nobody.

01:03:22:10 - 01:03:51:05
Prof Donald Shoup
Everybody. Well, this is normal. Finally, the they lost a lawsuit, and we're committed to this federal, one of the almost $1.5 billion to fix the sidewalks, which we don't have. But they said it would take over 30 years. And the the city comptroller, who was like an auditor, did an audit of the first few years and they had fixed 1% of the sidewalks.

01:03:51:08 - 01:04:21:14
Prof Donald Shoup
So I have a different policy to fix the sidewalks before the Olympics is that we have already, removed that promise that the city will pay for the sidewalks. But the homeowners don't want to pay because sometimes safer. Something like that sidewalk, you could see the the picture would have all been broken up. They had to take it all out and put it a new sidewalk, which is expensive.

01:04:21:17 - 01:04:45:27
Prof Donald Shoup
And many people don't have the budget. Right. So, my proposal is called pay on exit for this is that the city would repair all the sidewalks. Now, the sidewalk repairs like to do it. They have economies of scale. They want to do a large amount of sidewalks. And not just one little patch here, one little patch there.

01:04:45:27 - 01:05:03:12
Prof Donald Shoup
They want to do a lot of work, at the same time, because they have a lot of heavy equipment that they have to have the staff and so I think the city should be happy that I've talked to contractors. They could easily fix all the sidewalks for the next 2 or 3 years, but where's the public to come from?

01:05:03:14 - 01:05:18:19
Prof Donald Shoup
So I have, proposed a tailored exit for the house. The people will be assessed the value of the the cost of the repairs. But they could delay the cost until until they say they sell their property.

01:05:18:21 - 01:05:19:28
John Simmerman
Right?

01:05:20:00 - 01:05:41:18
Prof Donald Shoup
They have to pay interest on it. So it's sort of like the opposite of a conventional savings accountant at a bank you put money in, you get interest of your principal. So the other side of that is that you. You borrow the body as you pay interest until you are willing to pay, for the what you owe.

01:05:41:21 - 01:06:04:04
Prof Donald Shoup
But you have to pay at the, what you sell your property, the median sales price of, single family house in Los Angeles is $1.1 million. So you can't say we don't have the money to fix the sidewalk in front of our house. It's. So we're not going to make you pay now, but you can pay it now.

01:06:04:07 - 01:06:40:08
Prof Donald Shoup
But if you don't pay now, you could delay it. You as long as you want, until you sell the property, and then you have to pay it with interest. So I think it would be humiliating for Los Angeles to have, the people from around the world come and right across the street from the Olympic Village at UCLA, all the sidewalks are broken in the neighborhood that it would be just a catastrophic black eye for people to come to Los Angeles and see right around the venues of the Olympic Village, that the sidewalks are Ada accessible.

01:06:40:08 - 01:07:10:27
Prof Donald Shoup
They violate the Americans with Disabilities Act. So I think that the the portion the things are gotten so bad just like with like that map of Atlanta showing how bad our policies of how, have turned out that we can change it, we can remove all street parking requirements and we can fix sidewalks at all. I think that this would be investing in the infrastructure of, of of Los Angeles.

01:07:11:02 - 01:07:34:19
Prof Donald Shoup
It'll make the city walkable. We won't be the city of broken sidewalks, which we will be if we don't fix them. I think that it it won't be just Los Angeles that looks bad during the Olympics. The whole United States looks bad. If any pictures? The pictures will not. Now, you could. You could hardly find a sidewalk at all.

01:07:34:19 - 01:08:06:18
Prof Donald Shoup
Says it looks like the picture you had. I think after we finished, you could. I'll send you some pictures of the catastrophically broken sidewalks. And during the first four years of the when they were fixing sidewalks, they spent $31 million a year to fix sidewalks, and they spent over $35 million a year, sadly, trip and fall lawsuits because the they're awful that people break hips, elbows, wrists falling on sidewalks.

01:08:06:18 - 01:08:31:23
Prof Donald Shoup
And the city has to pay sometimes more than $1 million because people are crippled for life by falling on a sidewalk. And I think that, that, that this, this policy, if it's a city, really does adopt it, could be spread around the world is that we, we have a lot of, not just sidewalks, but public infrastructure that put people sell their property.

01:08:31:23 - 01:08:36:02
Prof Donald Shoup
Then they pay for the public investment. Yeah, yeah.

01:08:36:04 - 01:08:57:18
John Simmerman
And I think that's a really good point. You know, Diane. And and one of the things that that I like to, you know, sort of emphasize too, is that as we as we look towards these games and these major events, I think you're absolutely right. I think it is would be a black eye. And I'm going to pull up, the landing page to our first conversation here once again.

01:08:57:20 - 01:09:21:14
John Simmerman
And I love that you, you know, had this, this photo, you know, from Paris of you on one of the bikeshare bikes. The the vision and the aspirations of the city of the Olympic community is for this to be a a car free Olympics. I was very blunt and saying it won't be it's not going to be a car free.

01:09:21:14 - 01:09:52:28
John Simmerman
It's not going to be a motor vehicle free Olympics. We have an opportunity, just like we did in 1984, to really leverage the power of busses and being able to to shuttle many, many people. But the thing that I always try to to, you know, emphasize from an active town's perspective is that every single transit ride begins and ends with some form of active mobility trip, whether you know that on a bike, like a bike, share bike or, you know, walking.

01:09:52:28 - 01:10:22:22
John Simmerman
And so to your point, absolutely huge black eye. If we don't have a safe and inviting walking and biking facilities for people to be able to, you know, get to their meaningful destinations to and from transit to the venues and, and this is the legacy that we have the opportunity to transform that built environment in Los Angeles, which, by the way, is a very walkable and bikeable environment, pretty much all year round from, you know, from the weather perspective.

01:10:22:28 - 01:10:45:15
John Simmerman
There's no excuses here. You know, we do have that opportunity. And I think that, this is a great opportunity to try to leverage that. I love the creativity of your, your your financing solution. I'm sure there's many others. I'm always irked by the fact that, you know, cities will say, oh, yeah, our pockets are empty.

01:10:45:16 - 01:10:56:25
John Simmerman
We don't have any money left for people walking and biking. And yet, mysteriously, they always have money for major roadway projects for cars. Yeah.

01:10:56:28 - 01:11:22:07
Prof Donald Shoup
Yes, I think so. I think the transit validation is the way to go for the Olympics, but we don't have it for anything now. I think we have to learn how to, to include, transit fare in the price of a ticket for everything. We can't just have a, a 2020 and say, oh, well, we ought to have, a car free Olympics.

01:11:22:07 - 01:11:59:16
Prof Donald Shoup
We're saying that now. But why don't we have transit validation now? Why don't we fix our sidewalk? So I think that, I guess some people have asked how I've had that success. So I think it is as as I said, perseverance and longevity. And I think if I live long enough for the Olympics, I think that things are so bad now with, with, with, traffic congestion, broken sidewalks that maybe the Olympics will light a fire, to to to help us reform.

01:11:59:19 - 01:12:12:16
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Well, and interestingly enough, Alice's most recent, newsletter post was this. Everyone was excited because of the Olympics coming. Now everybody is worried.

01:12:12:19 - 01:12:16:15
Prof Donald Shoup
So. Yeah. So.

01:12:16:17 - 01:12:36:02
John Simmerman
Well done. I know that we could continue for for many, many, many more hours, but, I need to to turn you loose and get you back to your day. This has been such an honor and pleasure catching up with you. Again, the original sheepdog dog right here. Thank you so much. Professor Donald Tube.

01:12:36:02 - 01:12:37:25
John Simmerman
I really appreciate it.

01:12:37:27 - 01:12:39:14
Prof Donald Shoup
Well, thanks for inviting me.

01:12:39:17 - 01:12:56:07
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with the Shoup dog. And if you did, please. Hey, give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

01:12:56:10 - 01:13:13:13
John Simmerman
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01:13:13:16 - 01:13:32:18
John Simmerman
And every little bit helps and is very much appreciated. Well, thank you all so much for tuning in. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers and again sending a huge thank you out to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patreon. Buy me a coffee YouTube.

01:13:32:18 - 01:13:41:11
John Simmerman
Super! Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit. Every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated. Thank you all so much.