Transcript exported from the video version of this episode - Note that it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:31:21
Angela van der Kloof
I think maybe we don't talk about it enough that, you know, speed, it's oftentimes framed as something positive. Oh, you get there fast. And because, you know, time is money or whatever. But at the same time, if you have your speed, it always means that somebody else has less opportunities. The other needs to take more time or is completely turned off of of using these facilities.

00:00:32:05 - 00:00:35:02
Angela van der Kloof
And that is exactly the opposite of what we want.

00:00:35:11 - 00:00:59:02
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman and that is Angela van der Kloof from Mobycon in the Netherlands. And we're going to be talking about a variety of different topics, but really kind of centered around creating more inviting places for people to ride and trying to deemphasize speed as a way that we sort of evaluate and name our cycle routes.

00:00:59:13 - 00:01:10:16
John Simmerman
So let's get right to it with Angela. Enjoy. Well, Angela, thank you so much for joining me in the Active Towns podcast. Welcome.

00:01:11:29 - 00:01:14:16
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, thank you, John. I'm happy to be here.

00:01:15:08 - 00:01:19:06
John Simmerman
So do me a favor. Share with the audience who you are.

00:01:20:20 - 00:01:53:11
Angela van der Kloof
So yeah, I am Angela from the Clove. I live in the Netherlands in a city called Tilburg. In the south, it's a city with 200,000 inhabitants. Will We'll talk more about that later on. I work as a consultant at Moby Con and yeah, I focus on projects involved in cycling. So I advise authorities in the Netherlands and abroad about cycling topics and testing.

00:01:53:11 - 00:01:55:26
John Simmerman
So. And you grew up in Tilburg, right?

00:01:57:20 - 00:02:16:11
Angela van der Kloof
No, I did not. I'd okay. I grew up in a small town and even further south at the border with Belgium. It's called Zinder and it's actually the birthplace of famous painter Vincent from Hawk.

00:02:17:02 - 00:02:24:08
John Simmerman
Oh, okay. I see. Down here now, I actually interact.

00:02:24:08 - 00:02:25:03
Angela van der Kloof
Okay. And.

00:02:25:04 - 00:02:28:02
John Simmerman
And you sent me this map. What is this map?

00:02:29:24 - 00:02:56:10
Angela van der Kloof
Well, this is the map of the route that I had to take to school. Okay. When I turned 12, I like many children in that town, you know, if you wanted to go to a certain level of education, it was not available there. So we had to cycle 15 kilometers to school in the morning and 15 kilometers back and time.

00:02:56:21 - 00:03:05:12
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. At the time, you know, we never questioned this. We just, you know, did this and we never talked about it, basically. Yeah.

00:03:05:21 - 00:03:08:29
John Simmerman
And so why did your parents hate you so much? Why were they torturing you?

00:03:10:29 - 00:03:43:19
Angela van der Kloof
Well, that's what we thought Sometimes later on, I realized that somehow having this time between, you know, the end of the school day and then coming home and all this time for yourself, of course, we had to pedal, but we had all this freedom to basically do what we wanted to chat with friends to, I don't know. Yeah, to meet other people, etc..

00:03:44:02 - 00:04:27:18
Angela van der Kloof
So it was also a way for me to refresh my head and I did not particularly like it too much at school, at that school. So it was a good way to get rid of the negative energy, the I guess. And yeah, and you did pull up that, that image of, of that road. Yeah. And so, you know, we would typically we would typically be collecting all together at the spot in the village at the edge and then start cycling together in the morning in a big group.

00:04:28:23 - 00:04:54:29
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. And you just go with the flow and we cycled on this parallel road and so this, there's a parallel road on both sides of the and yeah, the road for and through traffic. So it was is sometimes agricultural vehicle or something but it was quite sick.

00:04:55:19 - 00:05:18:21
John Simmerman
Yeah. And what's interesting too is the Google maps here unfortunately highlighted all of these areas in blue that where they have street view. So it's kind of messing up our map a little bit. But this is just a random spot that I chose along your road and you're absolutely right. You know, look at you've got your your roadway there and you've got your side path.

00:05:19:15 - 00:05:38:18
John Simmerman
And we've got somebody who got captured, you know, on bike, you know, doing that. But this was your route. I mean, and I can just imagine you with a little posse of your your schoolmates, you know, just chatting and socializing and making your way to school.

00:05:39:22 - 00:06:08:14
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And and as we turn a bit older, then of course, sometimes we were too late at school in the morning. And so our favorite excuse for being late was that we had a flat tire. And then we have this whole conversation in this whole story that we, you know, we had to ring the bell of somebody's house and they helped us repair the tire.

00:06:08:18 - 00:06:10:23
Angela van der Kloof
That's why we're like, Yeah, yeah.

00:06:11:09 - 00:06:17:09
John Simmerman
That's that's right. Now, approximately what years were those when you were making that journey?

00:06:18:11 - 00:06:35:03
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, So that was 1980 when I started taking that route. So that was also in the periods where, yeah, there was more attention in the Netherlands on safer traffic.

00:06:35:14 - 00:06:45:17
John Simmerman
Yeah, beginning in the seventies we started to see the demonstrations in the Netherlands and, and that's what some of these images are starting to touch based on.

00:06:47:20 - 00:07:18:15
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, indeed. And of course at the time I had no idea that this was happening. Really? Yeah, it was a small town in the south of the country. Yeah. I had no idea that these protests were happening. Right, etc.. But then in 1985 I started to study in Tilburg, and actually that was the city in the Netherlands with the first one of the first pilots.

00:07:19:04 - 00:07:46:19
Angela van der Kloof
That's right. Of our national ministry to to build a demonstration route and so this route, it was it was opened in 1977, the first part of it, and they called it the that's what I really like about this. They called it the tofu to Dilbert Tilburg, the French, which means it has two meanings. It means stillbirth on the bike.

00:07:47:08 - 00:08:14:12
Angela van der Kloof
Right. But also the abbreviation trough. It means cool or great. So it was a great route for people to be on. And I really like that. Yeah. And at the same time, this route, it was also the first read cycle track in the in the Netherlands. And so in the city people just called it the read psychopath.

00:08:14:23 - 00:08:19:16
John Simmerman
Wow. At the time that was the it was red pavers, correct.

00:08:22:08 - 00:08:23:00
Angela van der Kloof
Problem or.

00:08:23:01 - 00:08:25:26
John Simmerman
Was it. Yeah I think if I think if I remember.

00:08:25:26 - 00:08:27:27
Angela van der Kloof
Right I'm not sure. Yeah.

00:08:28:11 - 00:08:45:06
John Simmerman
Because by this time this is this is from the mid nineties is this is 95 then you're already using the red asphalt in there. I think if I remember some historic photos this is not that.

00:08:45:06 - 00:09:17:12
Angela van der Kloof
These are with that title. Yeah yeah yeah. Previous picture or Sure yeah yeah. And for me as a new student young woman in the city not knowing my way, it was great to have this spine through the city. That really made it easier for me to, to find my way around. Because I always knew if I follow this, I either end up in the York after university or I end up in the city center, so I will know where I am.

00:09:17:24 - 00:09:18:16
Angela van der Kloof
And and what's.

00:09:18:16 - 00:09:43:05
John Simmerman
Interesting about that, too, is you're just being a kid. You're just being a student. You're you're now you're in a university and and you're studying and you're you're using the facilities. You're not thinking about, you know, 20 years ago or ten years ago or 15 years ago, the demonstrations that were taking place necessarily. But you're benefiting from that original pilot that took place.

00:09:43:05 - 00:09:58:29
John Simmerman
But now it's you know, by this point in time, it's it's been developed quite a bit more. And but then you started to have like an eye opening moment, correct, in terms of like understanding cycling and its role in.

00:09:59:02 - 00:09:59:12
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah.

00:09:59:24 - 00:10:01:03
John Simmerman
Freedom and ability.

00:10:02:11 - 00:10:33:01
Angela van der Kloof
That's awesome. That's correct. Because at some point I was I was bored of only reading books and I wanted to do something in my city. So I stumbled upon this advertisement for volunteers to teach women to ride bikes. And I thought, Oh, that's, that's fun. That's something for me. And so I yeah, I started to teach women with all kinds of backgrounds to cycle.

00:10:33:14 - 00:10:42:16
Angela van der Kloof
And over time, you know, we produced a video of how we teach women to ride. And that's the one you had. Yeah.

00:10:42:17 - 00:10:43:22
John Simmerman
And that's this one here.

00:10:43:22 - 00:11:24:16
Angela van der Kloof
And this one. Yeah. So, yeah, this is a snapshot of that fifth 50 minute video we produced to show others in the Netherlands how we teach women to ride and it's about, you know, creating very small steps and, and each step they learn it's a success. So you really use all so the learning to cycle as a empowerment tool for groups and yeah in the city that often don't have access to services or don't have a lot of opportunities in terms of education or work.

00:11:26:21 - 00:12:10:24
Angela van der Kloof
And yeah, so it was a really, yeah, successful project that NPR over time became a bike school in the city with classes in different neighborhoods. And so from there I also started to teach others how to teach people to ride bikes. And yeah, I do it in this style that really empowers people. And for myself, it was really a period when I started to reflect on my own situation and how I have learned to cycle or, you know, having had this experience of riding 15 kilometers to school and back and not even thinking about it.

00:12:11:07 - 00:12:47:12
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. And then meeting women, you know, who have responsibilities in their households and yeah, are super scared to learn to cycle because, you know, they don't want to break a leg and then their whole family will be. Yeah, you know, in, in, in trouble. And they have all these barriers that are oftentimes like emotional and psychological barriers of, of people saying, Oh yeah, cycling is not for you.

00:12:47:12 - 00:13:04:10
Angela van der Kloof
Cycling is for men and maybe little girls, but definitely not at all women. Yeah, Yeah. So I really learned a lot about my own cycling culture by this encounter with. Yeah. People for whom it's totally different.

00:13:05:28 - 00:13:38:02
John Simmerman
Very, very interesting. What what a fabulous story too. And I was aware of these types of programs for several years, really, because I know there a famous one in the Amsterdam area that got a lot of attention in the last, you know, 5 to 7 years, maybe ten years. That's teaching, you know, women, especially immigrant women, people who cycling wasn't necessarily part of their culture, which is your whole point is they don't have those skills.

00:13:38:02 - 00:13:58:14
John Simmerman
And so it it is a huge step. It is a huge increase in terms of of empowerment and ability and freedom to be able to understand how to get around by bike. And sometimes there's cultural barriers that need to be dealt with as well as just fear of, I didn't grow up with a bike, so I have to be able to to get over that.

00:13:58:14 - 00:14:06:21
John Simmerman
So that's absolutely beautiful. I had no idea that that a plan or a program like this existed those many years ago, not.

00:14:06:21 - 00:14:14:03
Angela van der Kloof
That long ago. But yeah, they did. The earliest ones I know are in the late 1980s. Yeah.

00:14:14:08 - 00:14:41:15
John Simmerman
Okay. Yeah. And tastic. Yeah, that's great. So then what? Fill in the gap here. So so that got you sort of tuned in and inspired about oh this date Dutch cycling culture thing is kind of cool and kind of different and not everybody understands it. Not everybody even knows. So walk us through what was that next step in that in your journey?

00:14:42:13 - 00:15:18:19
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, yeah. So yeah I'll I'll try to be a little a little short on that, but um, and the important the milestone or stepping stone, I would say for that is the fact that I had the opportunity to attend the Velo City Conference back in the year 2000. It was held in Amsterdam. And I mean, I had no idea such a thing existed because I was not really involved in cycling advocacy right.

00:15:18:19 - 00:15:41:26
Angela van der Kloof
But I met a German woman at some point. She's also a she was also a geographer. And we were in this meeting about bicycle parking in my city, and we were the only two women. So of course we, you know, we got to travel. And she said, Oh, you're doing such interesting work. Why don't you present at this conference?

00:15:41:26 - 00:16:13:28
Angela van der Kloof
And I was like, Great, yeah, that will be fun. But I have no idea how this works. Yeah. So she helped me come up with some kind of abstract and connect with the Dutch cyclists union. Yeah. And they, they managed to get me into the program. So that is where I started to meet, I would say. So people with also other cultural backgrounds, but who were really into cycling and and that was another, yeah.

00:16:13:29 - 00:16:41:28
Angela van der Kloof
Opportunity to learn about different ways of doing things and to learn more about, oh, everybody loves the Dutch cycling, so maybe, yeah, we have something to offer there and yeah, it was again this interaction that was so much inspiration for me, right? Because I mean, you, you hadn't heard that these, these courses, bicycle lessons were done so early on.

00:16:42:09 - 00:17:06:18
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. But actually a lot of Dutch people also didn't really know me. So I had very little people to kind of get my inspiration from, apart from the groups of people I trained, of course, and then at one of these conferences. So I started to attend more of these conferences because I really liked being with like minded people.

00:17:06:29 - 00:17:27:05
Angela van der Kloof
And so I got this idea to set up a program. And you pulled up some images here of like a buddy system for women who had just learned to cycle together with women who could already cycle. And it was called in Dutch. It was called featuring Denon. Yeah. Which translates as Cycle Friends.

00:17:27:07 - 00:17:27:29
John Simmerman
Cycle and.

00:17:28:07 - 00:18:12:00
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, yeah. And it was a really interesting project. And, and also it was also a time where I started to learn more about a lot of the politics behind cycling and then also this intersection of not just the politics of cycling, but also the politics of working with people with other cultural backgrounds, with migrants, with refugees, etc.. So that was, yeah, a really interesting way to understand that better and to develop my thinking about, okay, how do I tell this story and what is the importance of showing positive images?

00:18:12:23 - 00:18:39:07
Angela van der Kloof
I was really always looking to create positive like this photo. You know, it's I think is a very positive photo. Just because people are smiling, there's children there. The environment is not necessarily very inviting or something. And what I saw in the newspapers or in magazines was that if they talked about migrants or refugees, it wasn't always so positive.

00:18:39:07 - 00:19:02:24
Angela van der Kloof
And images were typically trying to create this negative atmosphere. So I really wanted to to change that. And over time, I started to understand more and more how important storytelling is, and it is to find the right words to say what you want to communicate, really, and to think about, okay, what is it really that I want to say?

00:19:03:13 - 00:19:09:23
Angela van der Kloof
And if I say it in a certain way, how do people then receive this message?

00:19:10:15 - 00:19:36:14
John Simmerman
Right? And, you know, and that's what we're all about here on the active towns Channel is trying to profile the positive stories that are out there and tell these in a in a very approachable way to really articulate what's possible out there and do so in a very, very inclusive way. And in in clearly you kept going to conferences because here you are on the stage in Scotland.

00:19:39:07 - 00:20:14:19
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, that's and that's an example of now. Yeah. I mean on this stage and, and also for, for many of my friends and family, it can be hard to understand that with, with the topic that I want to talk about. Then I get, you know, a spotlight and a stage and people like to hear these stories about cycling in the Netherlands, because for them, you know, they they just do it.

00:20:16:18 - 00:20:46:28
Angela van der Kloof
And and that is the interesting thing about it. And and that interaction with, you know, my my friends and family there is also important to me to kind of always be aware that that it's good to, you know, not know, keep yourself in some kind of cycling bubble, so to speak, to to maybe, you know, to to understand that it is all relative.

00:20:48:06 - 00:21:02:20
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I'm going to give your voice a rest and we're going to play a little clip from the video that really prompted us to schedule this this recording session.

00:21:03:11 - 00:21:30:26
Angela van der Kloof
About a cycling highway or fast cycle route. This is problematic because it triggers emotions, negative emotions. You don't want that in your neighborhood and you don't want your children to ride on their bikes on a on a highway. You would rather want it to be something meaningful. And yeah, not so much putting speed at the core, but putting, you know, the the positive aspects at the core of the name.

00:21:30:26 - 00:21:31:29
Angela van der Kloof
I think that is important.

00:21:34:06 - 00:22:00:28
John Simmerman
So yes, so that's one of the trends that we're seeing is obviously the development not just in the Netherlands, but in other locations as well, is creating faster routes. They call them sometimes they call them cycle highways. And this video really takes exception with that term, calling it a cycle highway. Expand upon that just a little bit more.

00:22:02:26 - 00:22:45:13
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. Oh, so. Well, it links with what I said earlier that I've I've learned that it is important to think about your story and what you want to achieve. And when I hear you ask five cycle routes as it's now being translated into English oftentimes or cycling highway, then what sticks is fast and it is about speed. And it it's so it's not just this name, but also the way they organize, wayfinding, etc..

00:22:46:15 - 00:23:25:11
Angela van der Kloof
And so it's very much connected to utility and efficiency, but actually you want it to be something meaningful and something positive. Like what? That's why I like the pilot project in Tilburg that I mentioned earlier, the tough route, you know, the cool route to the great route. That's really a game changer in your city or town. And so do you want to brand cycling as you know, the most speedy or the fastest way to get somewhere?

00:23:26:25 - 00:23:47:03
Angela van der Kloof
I think if if that is your story, then you will not. Yeah I think it's difficult. It's a hard sell because if you really want to go fast you take a car right. And and it is not the inherent quality of what cycling is. Cycling is not inherently about speed.

00:23:47:19 - 00:24:17:00
John Simmerman
You know, and you can see in this image here, this little image here that you mentioned, that even the naming the nomenclature. And so you see the sign here on the pole. Yeah. You know, so you've got the so that's part of it. And the reason why they're there, they're named the way they are is the F is, is referencing seats or bike and then it's the number is almost always somehow related to an a route, an automobile route as well.

00:24:17:00 - 00:24:27:22
John Simmerman
So even the naming of them is not as fun as the cool way. It's more a very, very car brand naming nomenclature.

00:24:28:23 - 00:24:39:27
Angela van der Kloof
You. Yeah yeah. And so interestingly enough, when they started to talk about this first cycle route in this area, the one from Tilburg to Volvo.

00:24:40:15 - 00:24:40:23
John Simmerman
Mm hmm.

00:24:41:08 - 00:25:12:22
Angela van der Kloof
At first they started they talked about hopped from grab onto water. So the hard off Brabant route, which is Yeah, hot from Brabant is the name of the region. I mean I could relate to that somehow and hard to know. It's it also can inspire a nice logo or well, you know, something positive. Yeah. But then F 261 I don't drive very much and I'm very not very good with numbers.

00:25:12:22 - 00:25:45:09
Angela van der Kloof
So at first I didn't even know where it came from. Yeah, but I'm, I'm sure you know, I'm sure there are people who drive cars who who can relate to it and whom it may be helpful for. But yeah, I don't know. Also within the city it's it's quite. You do Yeah that's I think also my my point if you want to connect the towns and cities to each other and then you know in a fast way maybe I can imagine that.

00:25:45:09 - 00:26:15:24
Angela van der Kloof
But this route, it starts with our trains station. That's a busy place. Yeah. So why, why start a highway or a fast route in the middle of a busy place and not at the edge of the city or something? And still, I don't want to be only negative about this because. Right. Yeah. You know, the way they, the way they, they look, it's not necessarily bad.

00:26:15:25 - 00:26:50:05
Angela van der Kloof
And you know, there is a lot of space and you have a lot of junctions where you have the right of way. And when there's a traffic light, it will be green in no time and you don't have to stop, etc.. So there are a lot of positives about it and that's why I think it's a pity that we don't focus on these kinds of positives and and that we are ended up being in this car thinking that everything has to be financed and with the utility.

00:26:50:24 - 00:27:00:22
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I in this next segment I'll go ahead and press play here because you actually start to address okay well who is it we're serving? It's part of, you know, the narrative here.

00:27:01:06 - 00:27:29:20
Angela van der Kloof
When planning for these, you know, connecting cycle routes or smooth cycle routes or cycle through routes, it is important to think about not just which places seem logical to to connect like on a map, but to really think about who is living there, who is using these spaces, and to make sure that it's not just one demographic that you're serving.

00:27:30:19 - 00:27:59:21
Angela van der Kloof
So not just people who live in the outskirts and then have to go to work in the city center, but also making it a meaningful route for people who have shorter trips in their own neighborhood and can use parts of that route as well, or people who would not go to the city center but to an industrial area or yeah, connecting areas where people live with lower incomes, etc..

00:28:00:14 - 00:28:31:13
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. I mean such good points. And I think that the the opportunity that these facilities have for us is yes, especially with electric assist. You and I were talking about this before I hit the you know, the record button is suddenly longer distances, longer trips are very much possible for literally all ages and abilities. And so there's some value to Yeah.

00:28:31:13 - 00:29:11:25
John Simmerman
Having, you know, routes where you have, like you said, less friction, less junctions and interactions with motor vehicles and other cross traffic. But at the same time, we've got an interesting tension now that we start to have in place of how do we handle maybe faster moving like traffic mobility than devices with some slower moving in in, you know, the mixing of people who may be using that same facility for a short trip like you just mentioned, as well as maybe somebody coming in off of a 15 to 20 kilometer long trip.

00:29:12:04 - 00:29:16:15
John Simmerman
So we Yeah. Challenges. Yeah.

00:29:17:01 - 00:29:47:20
Angela van der Kloof
And that's I mean in the Netherlands I think where we are in the middle of that process of of figuring out what this means and yeah, what could be the way forward. And of course not everybody agrees on how to do that. It's, it's also a lot about yeah maybe in some places in the Netherlands not necessarily somewhere else.

00:29:48:02 - 00:30:11:14
Angela van der Kloof
You know, it may be better to mix people more instead of all the separated bicycle parts, but then the speed needs to be low. And how do we then design the area and how do we keep that affordable for everyone and well, for for the city to to build that. So it's it's a big puzzle. Yeah.

00:30:12:01 - 00:30:23:00
John Simmerman
Yeah. And when we look at the images that we see here of, you know, the these different routes, you, you labeled this one criss cross. Why is this one labeled criss cross.

00:30:24:20 - 00:30:53:27
Angela van der Kloof
Well, because people are criss crossing here from, from every direction and it is not, it is not the outbreak I think on paper it is correct how they designed it and everything, but people use it differently because it's not very intuitive. And you I mean, you don't want to take a big detour to cross the street or on the on the right side.

00:30:53:27 - 00:31:19:09
Angela van der Kloof
There is a big supermarket. So many people want to go there. Yeah. And so if you stand there, it's just, you know, people zooming by. But yeah, I was really standing there as as I took this picture for this podcast and thinking, yeah, so this is the, the fast cycle route into we're in the middle of the city.

00:31:19:09 - 00:31:37:17
Angela van der Kloof
It makes to me it makes no sense to call it a fast cycle, would you? You don't want people to be fast. You want them to be aware. Yeah. To interact with each other and make sure that yeah, everybody, you know, just smoothly gets to where they need to be.

00:31:38:17 - 00:31:42:18
John Simmerman
So what do we call it? Do we go back to calling it the cool play the cool route.

00:31:43:11 - 00:31:46:09
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.

00:31:47:19 - 00:32:37:23
John Simmerman
I, you know, the connectedness obviously in having, you know, routes to, to be able to connect people to meaningful destinations, you know, honing in on that. But I get your point is that and the reason why I'm trying to correct my language are not calling them fast cycle routes and not calling them cycle highways, especially not cycle highways, but really, you know, trying to capture or the spirit of in some situations, in some environments, like, you know, in the more rural environment of, you know, part of your journey of getting to school, it may be yeah, may be an appropriate, you know, terminology to call that, Yeah, this is a direct safe space and yeah,

00:32:37:23 - 00:33:07:10
John Simmerman
you can go fast on it. But in this type of environment with this criss cross it, calling it fast may not serve us well in terms of what we're trying to communicate, especially given the differentials, the speed differentials, you know, from the different modes that we have out there. We mentioned electric assist bikes. Currently in many municipalities, even scooters are still allowed in cycle paths.

00:33:07:26 - 00:33:13:21
John Simmerman
We'd like to see that sort of stuff happening. But yeah, we've got some concerns out there.

00:33:14:03 - 00:33:53:11
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, yeah. And, and of course there are also, you know, people in the Netherlands who are concerned about that and not just the professionals, but also. Yeah, yeah. People who live close to such a fast cycle route, but then their children need to cross it in the morning to go to school. And it just means that, I mean, normally you would maybe allow them to go to school on their own when they're ten or sometimes even eight or something, but when there is such a route on that way, you you wouldn't want that.

00:33:53:15 - 00:34:24:20
Angela van der Kloof
It's really too, too dangerous. Yeah, I think that's that's really a pity because yeah, it's at the same time, I mean if you do ride on it, you know it is very smooth with the green paint on it, it's very recognizable. So if you do want to follow that route, you know, if first of all you know that there is such a route and then you do want to follow it, then it's it's really easy and intuitive.

00:34:24:27 - 00:34:53:05
Angela van der Kloof
So that's that's good about it. But I think we need to find a way to to also separate between what's happening within the city where, you know, children are using this and a lot of elderly are using it in the in the busy hours. Right. Yeah. And separate that from Yeah. The more quiet places where it is easier to go full speed.

00:34:54:06 - 00:35:16:18
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the the concerns that I have and I articulated this to you before with the play button or the record button is that, you know, this look starts to look like, oh my gosh, this looks like automobile infrastructure. And I'm like, Who is that really the direction that we want to be heading?

00:35:17:10 - 00:35:44:22
John Simmerman
And I get I get why I understand the pragmatic and practicality of of doing of making this look the way that it looks right here. But at the same time, I'm a little concerned that, like, for instance, you know, you start to see car brain mentality of, you know, I have my lane and I'm in my space and I'm entitled to this space and I want to be able to go quickly, uninhabited, uninhibited.

00:35:45:20 - 00:35:56:13
John Simmerman
And darn it, there's there's three girls riding side by side by side up ahead, going slowly. How dare they? I'm on my fast cycle route.

00:35:59:03 - 00:36:26:26
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, yeah. Also also probably with that dividing line in the in the middle I mean in in the Netherlands in many places where we want to slow down, we started to remove these markings in the middle. Yes, but now psychically. So get their markings for some reason. Yeah. Yeah. And so the the image of this is is really different from the image of the.

00:36:27:09 - 00:36:43:10
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. What this first continuous cycle way the red psychopath in Dubai looked like or looks like nowadays there's no markings on that direct continuous cycle way.

00:36:43:24 - 00:37:08:13
John Simmerman
Yeah. And this is the image that concerns me the most is that in those municipalities where scooters are still allowed to be on the cycle paths, they're going to jump on the fast cycle routes because they're going to know that there's even less friction of, you know, the the side routes and whatnot. And and that will encourage them to go even faster and be even more aggressive.

00:37:09:06 - 00:37:09:16
John Simmerman
So.

00:37:10:11 - 00:37:23:07
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, well, not not just the scooters. It's also typically the you know, the people on these fast bikes delivering pizza or delivering groceries, etc..

00:37:24:02 - 00:37:25:24
John Simmerman
Which we want to do.

00:37:26:12 - 00:37:55:03
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, we want that. But they're also very young people. Yeah. And they have no idea how much they scare others off because I think that is I mean I think maybe we don't talk about it enough that, you know, speed, it's oftentimes framed as something positive. Oh, you get there, you know, with fast. And because, you know, time is money or whatever.

00:37:55:03 - 00:38:14:15
Angela van der Kloof
But at the same time, if you have your speed, it always means that somebody else has less opportunities. The other needs to take more time. More is completely turned off off of using these facilities. And that is exactly the opposite of what we want.

00:38:15:02 - 00:38:46:14
John Simmerman
Yeah, because we do want it to be a safe and inviting environment for everybody, all ages and abilities, which is exactly what this photo, brilliant photo that you captured is exemplifying. Here we have somebody on a mobility scooter and we have some kids on, you know, in the cycle path, you know, making their way. And so to your point, we don't want to then create a situation, a dynamic that starts making this feel too uncomfortable.

00:38:46:14 - 00:39:13:23
John Simmerman
Or for somebody who may not be as confident of bike rider as well as somebody who may be on a mobility device, I mean, the whole spirit of why I love the term all ages and abilities is it's all encompassing. And we want to create environments that continue to double down on that and exemplify that. Of course, the tension that we addressed earlier is that, well, how do we kind of do both?

00:39:13:29 - 00:39:42:09
John Simmerman
Is there a way that we can kind of do both? Is that where we kind of lean into the cultural expectations and figuring out how we get along in a space? For instance, just look to the left here in this photo in the red brick, you know, paved area there for this residential area that sort of sends a message to the motor vehicle drivers that, hey, this is a shared space and it's brick, it's probably not a thru route.

00:39:42:14 - 00:39:43:20
John Simmerman
You need to go slowly.

00:39:44:28 - 00:40:16:13
Angela van der Kloof
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it would be interesting if if more often, for example, some artists were involved in in thinking about these these things and in thinking about what, you know, how can we make it look. Yeah. Positive for for everyone and have less Yeah. Less stress on the fact the whole idea that it has to be fast.

00:40:16:29 - 00:40:39:07
John Simmerman
Yeah. I mean I've had this criticism of wayfinding apps that are out there so often wayfinding apps are focused only on the fastest route from points A and B, but maybe that's not what I want. Maybe I want the most beautiful route. You maybe I don't want the fastest around.

00:40:42:04 - 00:41:20:10
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, in the Netherlands you do have the option to to follow other routes that you know with a wayfinding system. So I mean you have options with which is great but sometimes yeah recreational roads and this fast cycle road. Yeah. Are in the same space. If it's not busy that's no problem. Right. But when it's busy like in the weekends some, some places get really busy, you just don't want people to speed up.

00:41:20:25 - 00:41:31:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And I love this, this photo here too, because as soon as I said the beautiful road, I see the flowering trees here for spring.

00:41:31:15 - 00:41:32:01
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah.

00:41:33:13 - 00:42:17:20
John Simmerman
But I also want to note here that that this kind of does feel like an appropriate place in some ways for a most fast route, because it's not what I would consider the most comfortable route because it is next to more lanes of traffic. If I were if I were seeking a more pleasant route either either for myself because I just wanted to de-stress and I didn't want to be next to noisy motor vehicle polluting traffic, I might choose a parallel route that's that's quieter and Lester act and I'm not in a quote unquote hurry and maybe I know that the trees over there are even more beautiful.

00:42:17:21 - 00:42:21:07
John Simmerman
Maybe there's a magnolia tree over there which are blooming, right? Yeah.

00:42:22:01 - 00:42:47:17
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then you, you start looking for, you know, the Dutch, the just cycle node system with the, the number of routes that can really it can really help you. Yeah. But typically the fast cycle routes are along highways, car highways. So it's not necessarily the most pleasant places all the time.

00:42:48:03 - 00:43:10:24
John Simmerman
Right. Yeah. Now we're seeing some imagery here of what you had alluded to earlier, and that was, you know, that sort of the shared space sort of situation. And so we have a feed right here and we've got the 30 kilometers per hour zone. And the expectation that their driver is patient stays behind the people on on the bikes.

00:43:11:10 - 00:43:31:19
John Simmerman
And so this this kind of reinforces what we were talking about is that, you know, sometimes maybe maybe this is the direction we head in. But you were very astute in thinking or making the point that this may not be appropriate for all cultures and all cities that are more car dominated around the globe.

00:43:33:27 - 00:43:47:21
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean, if if the car volumes are very high and cycling volumes are very low, then it can be the wrong step to take. Yeah, yeah.

00:43:48:09 - 00:44:15:05
John Simmerman
Yeah. For sure. But it is in many cases because as we were alluding to earlier, in the residential areas, in many cases these are the more comfortable routes in because of low car volumes and being able to have access to to some, you know, beautiful surroundings as well. So it's it all depends on context.

00:44:16:24 - 00:44:44:10
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's always, always the case and Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also I mean you also always have to think about okay, if we have a certain amount of dollars, we can only spend them once. So what are we spending them on and how, you know, how do we try to create. Yeah. The good for, for as many people as possible.

00:44:45:02 - 00:45:14:01
John Simmerman
Right. Yeah. So I like the fact that you included this photo here, because when I compare the stratification of the the previous images that we saw, we saw the images of the the outnumbered routes and for the fast cycling routes, we need to come up with a new name. We know that. But that's kind of what they're looking at next to the busier streets.

00:45:14:06 - 00:45:39:00
John Simmerman
Then we saw the shared streets, the fare, the the more the seats strut sort of street. And now we see, you know, this particular facility here. And when I think of people who are struggling with seeing how cycling fits into their day to day routine, if I give them the option between those those three, they're probably going to choose this one first.

00:45:39:08 - 00:46:04:08
John Simmerman
If it gets them to their meaningful and then probably that fast cycling route. Second and then the shared, you know, the feet stra the shared kind of environment is probably just seems too scary to them given their context of maybe not having that culture of, of cycling and more. An emphasis on going places fast in motor vehicles.

00:46:06:10 - 00:46:38:14
Angela van der Kloof
I can see that. I can see that point. But at the same time, our cycling network in the Netherlands consists of a mix of all these things. So exactly, if you want to get to places, it is difficult to find a route with only this this kind of facility to really, you know, be lucky or something, you know, to to have this type of facility on all the routes that you're taking.

00:46:38:14 - 00:46:46:26
Angela van der Kloof
But I get your point. And I think it's important for people who want to get more comfortable, Oh, there is our dog.

00:46:49:22 - 00:46:55:00
John Simmerman
I was wondering if this was a wolf that was near the cycle path and you're like, oh.

00:46:55:18 - 00:47:40:18
Angela van der Kloof
No. So the the cycle path that you that you saw, it's you know, it kind of feeds into to the cycle, the fast cycle route as it is called. Yeah. And but and it is part of the the network of cycling routes in the city that you had just also put up this image with the line through the city and so because not everybody lives next to a cycling highway so you always have to get to this particular particular route and all of it needs to be doable, safe and comfortable.

00:47:41:01 - 00:48:04:20
Angela van der Kloof
And personally, I think that, you know, the image that you just saw that feeds into that first cycle route, it's it's a fine cycle route. There's nothing wrong with that, although there is not the White Stripes and there is not the there are number for it, but it's it's a fine route and there are also a lot of pedestrians there.

00:48:04:27 - 00:48:29:26
Angela van der Kloof
And you can walk your dog there without the leash. So that's that's why you saw our dog, Sarah there. And it's I think it is much more inviting than then. Yeah. The faster route And also yeah, this one is this is a regular recycling street. This is not part of the first cycle route.

00:48:30:11 - 00:48:30:20
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:48:31:10 - 00:48:44:02
Angela van der Kloof
But it's, it's perfect cycling on such a route. So I guess that's also the point I want to make. Like what exactly is it adding to comfortable routes that are there anyway.

00:48:44:21 - 00:49:14:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Good question. And I think it's and that's one of the things that I love about the Dutch in general is a, you're willing to experiment and innovate and do things and try things out. Thank goodness they tried it out there in Tilburg all those many years ago because it really helps, you know, change the direction and obviously credit to the early pathways and the network that was built in Delft as well because that's part of the history.

00:49:15:15 - 00:49:40:10
John Simmerman
But these images, too, I mean, like is to your point is like you're you're cobbling together many different types of of infrastructure and pathways and routes to connect people to meaningful destinations. And you're willing to try things, test them, see if they work or not, and if they don't work, change them. And that goes for big projects, too.

00:49:40:10 - 00:50:09:09
John Simmerman
Obviously, we've profiled in the past the The Canal in Utrecht that got, you know, filled in and a highway built and then realized that was a tremendous mistake. And many people thought that and eventually it you know, was closed. And they have three stored that to a beautiful canal. A much more people oriented piece of infrastructure, if you will.

00:50:10:13 - 00:50:29:07
John Simmerman
But, you know, so the willingness to test things and see if they truly are working and and are people oriented, people centered. So, yeah. And I don't think that speed needs to be the thing that people are singularly focused with, to your point.

00:50:30:27 - 00:51:01:23
Angela van der Kloof
No, no, exactly. But I mean, yeah, the professionals in the field, there are people who really like this idea of speed, but well, indeed, this, this image you, you know, when I was walking there last year and I saw this group coming, I was really thinking, Oh, I need to film this. This makes me so happy. This group of children, you know, they were probably going to sports or something in their class.

00:51:01:23 - 00:51:28:23
Angela van der Kloof
And then together they cycled back to school and also, yeah, along the canal. Then you hear to chitchatting noise of everyone. It's, it's really and this is not a fast cycle route this this road but it is a psychopath and it's it's safe and comfortable and also pretty direct actually. So yeah.

00:51:29:09 - 00:51:48:21
John Simmerman
The only time I ever see the only time I ever see Dutch children, students like this wearing high vis is when they're either doing their exams around 11, 12 years old, or when they're out on a school outing. And it's just helping the the teacher keep track of all all of them. Exactly. The only time.

00:51:48:21 - 00:51:53:06
Angela van der Kloof
I see them wearing. Good job mentioning that. Yeah. Thanks for that.

00:51:54:05 - 00:52:06:22
John Simmerman
Yeah. All right. Well, let's talk about this slide, because I think this is a very important thing to to talk about, especially in the context of some of the worldwide and North American statistics.

00:52:08:15 - 00:52:43:08
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah. Oftentimes people also within the Netherlands, but also outside of the Netherlands are not so much aware of what our cycling modal split is. And I think it's super interesting that we have the use of reverse where you call them reverse images. And so if you look at the gender models with typically in other countries, you women would cycle less than men.

00:52:43:26 - 00:53:25:29
Angela van der Kloof
But in the Netherlands, women make more trips by bike than men do. And then if you look at the right side of that slide, it shows the age models split. And so in other countries, it's typically the middle age people that cycle a lot. But in the Netherlands, it's really the children. I mean, I think the the second row from the bottom 12 to 7, ten or maybe a bit more, I imagine they are our superheroes and and boys and girls almost almost the same.

00:53:26:24 - 00:53:58:14
John Simmerman
Well, and what I love about that, can we linger on that for just a moment? What I love about that is that's an indication to of just how powerful having that all the ages and abilities comprehend this cycle network is beginning you know right around 11 years of age. They really start to expand their horizons and in thinking back to to your 15 kilometer trip that you were taking, you know, as a student, you know, getting to middle school, you know, this is part of it.

00:53:58:14 - 00:54:36:13
John Simmerman
And that is, I think, one of the biggest opportunities that communities that are more car dominated around the world are really missing out on, because too often the parents are held hostage as they're carting their kids around to all these different activities that happen between those ages of 11 and 18. And so this is huge. I love I love seeing this, but I also love seeing what we're I think you're also going, which is a steady rise in the number of and the modal shift of people riding as they get into their older years.

00:54:39:22 - 00:54:54:04
Angela van der Kloof
Yes, But let's also what you mentioned, you said, you know, parents driving their children to different places by car, etc.. Typically, in most cases it will be the mothers who do that.

00:54:54:19 - 00:54:56:06
John Simmerman
Exactly. Yes.

00:54:56:28 - 00:55:40:10
Angela van der Kloof
And so I think in our Western societies, so many mothers get stuck. They have so much on their plate. And then also, you know, this time in the car with the kids is driving them everywhere. It would be such a benefit if if there was a way to change that. And that is, of course, it's at the same time, it's also a difficult thing because it is oftentimes, especially the moms who are really scared to let go of their children and give them this opportunity to explore the world by themselves and, you know, get into dangerous situations.

00:55:40:10 - 00:56:14:16
Angela van der Kloof
You can never avoid that completely. So it is really yeah, we do need a cultural shift there. That is not easy, I think. But but we have to talk about that also talk about what you gain if you do manage to, you know, bring your children to places by bike when they're young. Then at some point they will be able to go places on their own at very low cost, it is healthy for them, etc., etc..

00:56:15:14 - 00:56:38:25
Angela van der Kloof
So it is worth the investment of the time that that you put into cycling together rather than being in a car together. And yeah, I don't hear a lot of conversations about that type of game that you, that you know, that mothers could get.

00:56:39:09 - 00:57:12:10
John Simmerman
Into your point to that. I mean the mobility language matters and we talked about that earlier when we were talking about, you know, the mobility language of naming, you know, a route. And that was a big part of of what that video was about, too, is don't call it a cycle highway and into mobility. Language matters here, too, in understanding that dynamic the gender differences in in in the dynamic of the trips that are being made you see here you mentioned it briefly.

00:57:12:10 - 00:57:37:27
John Simmerman
Is the trip changing? There's a lot of additional little trips that oftentimes females are making that aren't getting appreciated and, you know, really leaning into an appreciation for those short trips. The short distances that then add up to a nice long day of writing, many, many kilometers of riding. But at the same time, the qual, the positive qualities.

00:57:37:27 - 00:58:22:19
John Simmerman
And so glad you mention social interaction for everybody and you know, the humanizing impact that having an environment that's truly all ages and abilities and mixes people out there in that environment is so incredibly powerful. And from my background in human behavior and behavior change, you are able to sort of develop brain patterns that help establish habits. When you get that positive feedback after going out and experiencing, you know, a positive interaction, you know you get that reinforcement of, of, you know, habit formation because of the positiveness of it.

00:58:22:26 - 00:58:32:12
John Simmerman
And a big part of that is, you know, that social dynamic and social part of it. So absolutely beautiful. And that's something you're really interested in.

00:58:34:08 - 00:59:14:29
Angela van der Kloof
Yes, indeed. Indeed. For me, it's I'm really interested, of course. Yeah. I mean, we talk about the cycle lane and whether it's a fast lane or not and all these images of of infrastructure are. But in the end I'm mostly interested in and the relationship between humans and these infrastructures and then yeah, what does this tell us about humans or what, how can unions change things for you know, for in ways that make things better for them?

00:59:15:09 - 00:59:41:29
Angela van der Kloof
So this is a snapshot of of my personal website that I started to, to create because I wanted to create this. I think this was also an empowerment of action, you know, to create my own space on the web. Because sometimes you write a blog post and then this website gets changed and they've taken it off or, you know, etc., etc..

00:59:41:29 - 00:59:54:02
Angela van der Kloof
So I'm collecting there you a number of articles and videos, etc. that I was involved in over the years. And it's not, it's not it's work in progress, let's put it that way.

00:59:54:22 - 01:00:27:29
John Simmerman
But it does tell your story a little bit including and at 22 is when you started that voluntary position and and I love this Angela that you are that you're working on this and you're doing this and I think it just doesn't get talked about enough is that social side of of cycling and I love the fact that your journey took you around from doing some voluntary work, helping empower and inspire and teach other women how to ride.

01:00:28:07 - 01:01:02:18
John Simmerman
And then following that up with, you know, the passion of riding socially with friends and then, you know, to to the point where you're you're now out as with your career at Moby. Can I talk a little bit, a brief moment to to explain to folks who Moby Khan is. It's a familiar, familiar name because I've had a multiple of Moby Con professionals on the podcast before, as well as I've joint produced a video in Boulder with Zach Vander Hoy with Moby Khan.

01:01:02:24 - 01:01:12:24
John Simmerman
But why don't you just give a quick little overview of this very fantastic and amazing organization? I'm not biased at all.

01:01:13:17 - 01:01:50:00
Angela van der Kloof
I'm sure you are. You can do a better pitch than I can. We like it when other people talk about us right? Yeah, But yeah. So we're a consulting firm that aims to to make the world less dependent on the car. And we want to help cities in the Netherlands and around the world to achieve that with, you know, helping to develop mobility plans, recycling plans, doing cycling designs, reviewing designs, giving trainings.

01:01:50:28 - 01:02:09:10
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, I'm doing projects. There is a lot of information on our website and we have an amazing Moby Call academy for the people who really like to learn things online. Yeah, and it's it's a great place to work. Yeah.

01:02:09:22 - 01:02:14:10
John Simmerman
Yeah, It's a great place to work. Yeah. Yeah. This has been so much fun. Thank you so.

01:02:14:10 - 01:02:14:19
Angela van der Kloof
Very.

01:02:14:19 - 01:02:19:20
John Simmerman
Much. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you want to make sure we touch upon before we say goodbye?

01:02:21:10 - 01:02:33:10
Angela van der Kloof
Well, if you're. If you're ever around, Dilbert, let me know. I'll. I'll make sure also for the listeners. I'll make sure I give you some advice on what to look out for.

01:02:34:10 - 01:02:43:16
John Simmerman
Fantastic. Yes. And I'm kicking myself. I was telling you that before we hit record that I didn't make it there. It was so close. Next time.

01:02:43:17 - 01:02:49:22
Angela van der Kloof
Yeah, it's time. Maybe one day. Or maybe we create a virtual study tour in the field. We're. You know.

01:02:49:22 - 01:02:53:10
John Simmerman
That will be fun. Yes, absolutely. Now.

01:02:53:19 - 01:02:54:16
Angela van der Kloof
I saw the truth.

01:02:55:02 - 01:03:01:02
John Simmerman
Yes. Angela, thank you so very much. It's been an absolute joy and pleasure having you on the Active Towns podcast.

01:03:02:05 - 01:03:04:20
Angela van der Kloof
Thank you, John. It's a pleasure to join.

01:03:05:11 - 01:03:22:26
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning and I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you did, please give it a thumbs up or leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring the notifications bell to get your notifications customized.

01:03:23:06 - 01:03:42:18
John Simmerman
And if you are enjoying this content on the Active Towns channel, please consider supporting my efforts on Patreon. Buy Me a Coffee and also in the active town store where you can get your own street surfer people swag like this cool water bottle t shirts and all that other good stuff. Coffee mugs again. Thank you all so much for tuning in.

01:03:42:24 - 01:04:05:25
John Simmerman
I can't tell you how much it means to me and it really does help support the efforts to try to create more active towns, more people oriented places that are welcoming to all ages and abilities. Until next time. This is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers. And again sending a huge thank you to all my active town's ambassadors supporting the channel on Patron.

01:04:05:25 - 01:04:18:26
John Simmerman
Buy me a coffee Super. Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the active town store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated. Thank you all so much.