Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:13:05
Chris Bruntlett
That was one of the more impressive or enjoyable parts of Stockholm was seeing all of these streets. But unfortunately they were the summer activations and were going away in September.

00:00:13:07 - 00:00:33:06
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, but it did spur a lovely sort of connection. You know, Lars was really good to connect with the kids, and he asked the kids, quite honestly, what do you think about, you know, what we've got going on? And as Han had just said earlier, that he's like, why is there a highway going through the city? And so he said to Lars, you should get rid of the highway.

00:00:33:09 - 00:00:37:19
Melissa Bruntlett
And Lars was like, That's thank you. It's on my mind.

00:00:37:22 - 00:00:59:14
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman and that is Melissa and Chris Bruntlett from Delft in the Netherlands. We are actually going to be chatting about their family vacation and and going through a whole bunch of cool photos of their explorations. I hope you enjoy it. I certainly did. It's a lot of fun, but it's a long one.

00:00:59:14 - 00:01:12:06
John Simmerman
So let's get right to it with Melissa and Chris. Melissa and Chris, thank you so much for joining me once again on the Active Towns Channel.

00:01:12:09 - 00:01:14:03
Melissa Bruntlett
It's always great to join you, John.

00:01:14:05 - 00:01:17:15
Chris Bruntlett
I think it's our third or fourth appearance, but.

00:01:17:18 - 00:01:19:23
John Simmerman
Oh, who's counting? Yeah, yeah.

00:01:19:25 - 00:01:20:19
Speaker 4
I'm not counting.

00:01:20:19 - 00:01:32:24
John Simmerman
Who's counting? Yeah, you know what? I think you're right. This would be your third appearance on the actual podcast, but this is the first appearance, I think, on visual on the video cam. Right?

00:01:32:27 - 00:01:40:12
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The last time we chatted, it was all audio. I remember because my mike was rubbing on my sweater while I was trying to talk.

00:01:40:15 - 00:01:41:14
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:01:41:16 - 00:02:07:11
John Simmerman
And thank you very much for doing this. Really, what we are going to do today is just give you an opportunity to pull up your photo album and share some memories of some wonderful personal travel that you all had. And I was just soaking it up on social media because you do a great job of posting about your family trips and the things that you see out there.

00:02:07:11 - 00:02:35:12
John Simmerman
And so for the audience, for the listening only audience, it may be a little rough because we have lots of photos here. We'll do our best to try to just describe what we are seeing on screen. And then for obviously the YouTube audience, the visual audience, you're going to be treated to a wonderful family vacation that has lots of cool urbanist things that kind of come out a little bit of active mobility and some of that.

00:02:35:14 - 00:02:44:26
John Simmerman
But before we get started, why don't I just turn the floor over to the two of you for a quick introduction? Who are you?

00:02:44:29 - 00:03:09:01
Melissa Bruntlett
Who are we? Well, for those that don't know who I am, my name is Melissa. I have been working in advocacy for cycling and urbanism since a long time ago, over ten years, and work now with an organization called Moby Con, based in the Netherlands, working as a strategic advisor and focusing on communications and engagement around inclusion and equity.

00:03:09:01 - 00:03:12:27
Melissa Bruntlett
So this will be a bit of a departure from my day to day talk, which is nice.

00:03:13:01 - 00:03:15:04
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:03:15:07 - 00:03:44:11
Chris Bruntlett
That was very quick, very efficient. Nicely done. Yeah. And I am Melissa is my better half Chris And I'm lucky enough to be the marketing and communications manager for the Dutch cycling Embassy for the last five years. Yeah. Prior to that, Melissa and I worked on a little consultancy called Mid-City based in Vancouver, Canada. We've coauthored two books building the Cycling city and company Traffic.

00:03:44:13 - 00:04:08:25
Chris Bruntlett
And yeah, we have through that advocacy work, landed some pretty incredible roles, living and working in the Netherlands and documenting that on social media and building up quite an interest in quite an audience and sharing our insights, our experiences, our observations from our day to day lives in our day to day travels.

00:04:08:28 - 00:04:22:08
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, I think what's interesting with where Minnesota is now is it started as a passion project, became a job for both of us for a time. And then now is still partly a job but a lot of a passion. Yeah.

00:04:22:10 - 00:04:22:25
Chris Bruntlett
You know it's.

00:04:22:28 - 00:04:23:25
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:04:23:28 - 00:04:50:00
John Simmerman
It's, it's had its evolution, you know it Yeah. I link to a I really cherish our friendship and the ability to connect and chat like this. And I just I've loved this journey that you have been on and it really dates back to 2015 when you took your trip. I believe it was. Was that actually in 2015 when you guys took your trip.

00:04:50:03 - 00:04:51:03
Melissa Bruntlett
The next year? But that's.

00:04:51:03 - 00:04:51:18
Speaker 4
Okay. Okay.

00:04:51:18 - 00:05:18:10
John Simmerman
The beginning, the beginning of 2016, I think I remember 2015 because I know that 2016 is when we actually met at the pro shop Pro Bike Pro Place conference there in Vancouver, because I can't I don't recall if you had mentioned that. Yeah, you Canadians, you were in, in Vancouver for a while and then you made the move over to the Netherlands because of these opportunities that emerged.

00:05:18:12 - 00:05:30:14
John Simmerman
But I think it was in 2015 maybe you were doing your your fundraising, you're doing your prep work to be able to make it over to the Netherlands for that trip. How many weeks was that on that trip?

00:05:30:17 - 00:05:32:24
Chris Bruntlett
Five weeks. Yes, it is.

00:05:32:26 - 00:05:58:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Five weeks, five cities. And it really became that platform for a the book that eventually emerged. You know, that first book, the building, the cycling City of which we did talk about in our first podcast episode and then the second podcast episode, we talked about the second book, Curbing Traffic. But I've really cherished our relationship.

00:05:58:02 - 00:06:18:27
John Simmerman
I, you know, had the opportunity, like I said, to meet you at the conference in person. And and that was a huge delight. And that was that was post trip because that would have been in the fall and you guys had already had that opportunity to go. And then it was you caught the tiger by the tail. It was a whirlwind tour of promoting the book.

00:06:18:27 - 00:06:42:06
John Simmerman
And, you know, next thing you know, you're moving the family over there and I will refer people to our other episodes. I'll put the links down below to those episodes so that you can dive into the that story, that back story. But I also cherish the fact that, you know, I was in Delft in gosh, what was it?

00:06:42:06 - 00:07:11:04
John Simmerman
It was last November, the latter end of October and into November. And and and I'm like walking down this little street right here on screen and run into the two of you, because I was basically staying about two and a half blocks away. But we had not yet connected yet in person there in Delft. And so I guess that's one of the cool things about living in a people oriented city is you have that opportunity for those chance beatings.

00:07:11:06 - 00:07:24:08
John Simmerman
And that's why what we're going to be talking about today in these images I think is so incredibly important when you build cities for people, you can have those sort of interactions just by chance.

00:07:24:10 - 00:07:45:24
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, I think Chris and I often joke that will it's inevitable when people are visiting Delft that we know that we're like, when are we going to bump into this person while we're walking around? Right? It's not a huge city. Yeah. So yeah, when you were visiting last year, like, of course we're going to bump into John on several occasions, so he's around.

00:07:45:27 - 00:07:49:20
Melissa Bruntlett
But it's, it's nice and it's what we were looking for for sure and. Yeah, yeah.

00:07:49:23 - 00:08:13:27
John Simmerman
Well it was also kind of funny too is that as Chance would have it, I was staying in an apartment suite right on a street that was being redone, rebuilt. And so it was it was becoming a, an improved pizza drive. And that ended up being like the main drag where a lot of people would ride on to get to the grocery store, which is right down at the end of the block.

00:08:13:29 - 00:08:24:05
John Simmerman
So that was that kind of a fun thing. So I ended up producing a video promoting that, and you all ended up producing a video promoting, you know, that transformation as well.

00:08:24:08 - 00:08:25:08
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:08:25:10 - 00:08:50:17
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. I think I mean, we we always say it's this culture of continual improvement in the planning profession here that other cities could learn a lot from because every infrastructure upgrade, whether it's sewage pipes or gas pipes or, you know, other necessary upgrades that need doing, there's always it's always seen as an opportunity to make the street better, to make the lives of the residents better.

00:08:50:20 - 00:09:25:05
Chris Bruntlett
And that street was a great example. Now it's yeah, a great future with and we use it all the time. You know, it's lined with sunflowers in the summertime. They're just an absolute delight to cycle by itself. It's good to live in a city that's that's constantly getting better and thinking about its residents. And there's so many opportunities here that we just walk by and we take some photos and show them on social media.

00:09:25:05 - 00:09:45:15
Chris Bruntlett
And next thing you know, you know, there's people around the world saying, Yeah, yeah, this special The Netherlands is quite special because there there's still room for improvement, even after all I've accomplished in terms of getting livable, even scale for city.

00:09:45:18 - 00:09:57:27
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So here we are. We're we're not here to talk about that stuff. We're actually here to talk about your vacation. And so here's a little family shot. If I were to guess, I'd.

00:09:57:27 - 00:10:00:26
Speaker 4
Say this might be Copenhagen. But who.

00:10:00:26 - 00:10:03:14
John Simmerman
Knows? Where is this shot from?

00:10:03:17 - 00:10:07:22
Melissa Bruntlett
You're absolutely right. This is Copenhagen. And this is day one, I think.

00:10:07:25 - 00:10:08:27
Chris Bruntlett
I think so, yeah.

00:10:08:29 - 00:10:14:01
Speaker 4
Okay. Okay. You want to. Yes. Set us up. Well, these are so. Yeah. 12 days.

00:10:14:08 - 00:10:25:11
John Simmerman
So set us up. Well, talk a little bit about the itinerary, why we're doing this. What's the context? Because now we're just shifting into family photo mode.

00:10:25:14 - 00:10:32:16
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, which is odd for us. Is it okay if I. If I rent? This is my life for four months. More relaxed?

00:10:32:16 - 00:10:34:14
Speaker 4
Yeah. No, of course.

00:10:34:16 - 00:10:36:17
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. Credit where credit's due.

00:10:36:19 - 00:10:53:22
Melissa Bruntlett
So I think the year is. Well, last year we knew we had to go home and back to Canada to visit family. It had been well, the kids and Chris hadn't been back to Canada since we moved in, so it was time to go home and have visits with family. So we knew last year we couldn't do a big family.

00:10:53:22 - 00:11:21:09
Melissa Bruntlett
European holiday. We've been doing little ones. Obviously things have been falling along, but this year was the first time we could do one big one. Also, the redhead in that photo started college in September. And so we know that our family vacation time is getting smaller and smaller. And so for this summer that just passed, we wanted to do something where we could check off a few of the urbanist things that Chris and I want to do, but also combine it with stuff the kids would be interested in.

00:11:21:11 - 00:11:41:16
Melissa Bruntlett
So from the city perspective, finding the cool things that the teenagers are actually interested in and then having that connection when they with nature at the same time. Chris and I were a bit ashamed up until that point that as urban as working in cycling advocacy, we hadn't been to Copenhagen yet, and so that was on the list.

00:11:41:19 - 00:12:09:26
Melissa Bruntlett
So it basically that combined with the desire to be in nature, made Norway a very excellent place to take everyone. And so it started with Copenhagen. We're so close to Sweden. Okay, now we got to go to Sweden and then from there heading over to Norway. So it was, yeah, 12 days flying to Copenhagen and then taking the train from Copenhagen to Stockholm to Oslo, Trondheim, back to Oslo, because that's our transport there on there over to Bergen.

00:12:09:28 - 00:12:11:28
Chris Bruntlett
Up in Finland of course. Yeah.

00:12:12:03 - 00:12:13:12
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:12:13:15 - 00:12:14:09
Chris Bruntlett
The Lego House.

00:12:14:09 - 00:12:16:16
John Simmerman
So you got a house? Yeah.

00:12:16:18 - 00:12:18:02
Speaker 4
Yeah. This is like.

00:12:18:04 - 00:12:38:00
John Simmerman
This is a major task. Like you said, it occupied the better part of four months as you're trying to plan this out and figure this out, because, yeah, I mean, it's one thing if it's a business trip and it says one thing, if you guys are like saying, okay, we're going to go here, we're in the city, pick a city, you know, Copenhagen, you know, or Oslo or whatever.

00:12:38:03 - 00:12:57:07
John Simmerman
And we're going to focus in on urbanism things and data and meet a whole bunch of people and blah, blah, blah. If you treat it like a work trip, it's totally different. If you're like doing this multi dimensional Tetris type of thing where you're the Oxfam daily and Green Time and Nature and a little bit of that. Yeah, that's cool.

00:12:57:09 - 00:13:10:12
Chris Bruntlett
And I mean, it was one thing to choose the cities themselves and the dates, but then the final thing we did was choose what we wanted to do in each individual city. So Melissa created this whole matrix like a Miro board.

00:13:10:12 - 00:13:11:14
Melissa Bruntlett
It was Miro. Yeah.

00:13:11:15 - 00:13:26:19
Chris Bruntlett
Okay. Of, of options. And each of the four members of our family got to pick one specific thing that they would like to do from this big list. And of course, Dad, pick the stupid bike ride, quite literally the stupid bike ride.

00:13:26:21 - 00:13:28:11
Speaker 4
To sit with the kids.

00:13:28:14 - 00:13:41:12
Chris Bruntlett
That was the last thing that the kids wanted to do. Yeah, but then they were able to pick things like the museums and the other kind of more fun things. Yeah. So that every all four of us at least got one thing that we were able to choose in each city.

00:13:41:16 - 00:14:04:02
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, Yeah. And even the planning from it for, for all of our fellow urbanist slash train nerds watching the planning of where we were going to go were involved. Last Christmas I was given a ticket to ride standard air Nordic version, and I use that with sticking with post-it notes to like pin where we were going and which the trains were and writing down.

00:14:04:02 - 00:14:21:24
Melissa Bruntlett
Okay, this is the times, this is the cost. So we're even though Chris and I we playing the game, I would be looking at we are going to go from Copenhagen here. Can we go to Gartenberg? No, I don't think we can go there. And then so building in a little bit of play and yeah, definitely checking off with quite a few transport nerd options as we were going along.

00:14:21:27 - 00:14:22:20
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah.

00:14:22:23 - 00:14:23:22
Speaker 4
Well, how much is it?

00:14:23:22 - 00:14:43:28
John Simmerman
You know, like for instance, you mentioned, you know, the eye rolling of, you know, the bike ride type of thing, but at the same time, A that means a different thing to, you know, people in the Netherlands and people in Copenhagen because it's just it's just transport. It's a functional, practical transport. So it's not a bike ride per se.

00:14:44:03 - 00:14:50:09
John Simmerman
It's like, no, it's the most logical, practical way for us to get from point A to point B.

00:14:50:12 - 00:15:19:02
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, but I think the one thing that we're lucky enough to have is friendly faces In every city. We go to keen people, local advocates, civil servants. In the case of Copenhagen, it was somebody from the municipality who was very excited to show off in the city and give us a very curated experience of not just the infrastructure but the various neighborhoods and and developments that new housing developments that they're working on just to get a flavor of Copenhagen.

00:15:19:02 - 00:15:33:16
Chris Bruntlett
Good stuff in the food truck area so we could all get a bite to eat. And as you know, the bicycle just happens to be the easiest way to cover. Yeah, That much ground over a couple of hours. Yeah. Yeah. Grumbling teenagers be darned. Yeah, that's.

00:15:33:16 - 00:15:33:24
John Simmerman
Right.

00:15:33:24 - 00:15:34:10
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:34:10 - 00:15:56:06
Melissa Bruntlett
Well and well the interesting thing about that is is Yeah, the kids weren't super enthused about going on this bike ride, but one thing that we were shown by our, our guide was all these different like new buildings going up and saying, Oh, that's actually a student house and it's this beautiful tower, right. That you would never see as a student house in Toronto where we went to school.

00:15:56:09 - 00:16:12:14
Melissa Bruntlett
And, you know, saying, Oh, that might actually be cool if I did a transfer here for a year, that if I could live there or in this other sort of containerized style housing as a student, that would be a neat experience. And so there was just like little things to learn along the way, which we really appreciate it on that bike ride.

00:16:12:14 - 00:16:15:10
Melissa Bruntlett
Anyway, just to give them a little bit more excited.

00:16:15:12 - 00:16:18:16
Chris Bruntlett
And getting us outside of our urbanism bubble, of.

00:16:18:16 - 00:16:21:03
Speaker 4
Course. Yeah.

00:16:21:06 - 00:16:56:07
John Simmerman
So I actually have a photo of this particular bridge just off to, you know, my my left over here. You can't see it in screen, but I love this particular facility at night. I don't know if you had a chance to experience it at night, but it's it's delightful to either ride your bike through or stroll through just one of the I think one of the strengths that Copenhagen does have are, you know, some of these bridge and over water features in terms of walking and biking and how they've been able to activate some of their waterfront.

00:16:56:10 - 00:17:12:27
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, I think that was one thing that we were both really nice to see. But I think you were particularly excited about taking some photos of all the different bike bridges. Obviously, we have lots of bike bridges here with lots of canals, but they're older and you know, they have their own charm because of how old they are.

00:17:12:27 - 00:17:28:02
Melissa Bruntlett
But to have these sort of real modern types, we really felt it when we were in Copenhagen. I think that it was reminiscent of like we could see why people from Vancouver really love Copenhagen. Right? There's a lot of similarities between the two, not the mountain side of things, but the urbanism for sure.

00:17:28:05 - 00:17:48:21
Chris Bruntlett
When they're both harbor cities. Yeah, And yeah, I think they could look at the these bridges, very elegant structures created for non car infrastructure and look at them with jealousy because so many parts of the world are so far away from justifying these types of investment.

00:17:48:24 - 00:18:14:12
John Simmerman
Yeah. And if memory serves, you had like an entire chapter about building signature sort of facilities and high profile facilities and the value that, you know, cities and municipalities can leverage. When you build something that's beautiful, you know, it it helps bring attention to the fact that it doesn't have to all be ugly and drab and purely functional.

00:18:14:14 - 00:18:34:21
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah. And I think the nice thing that at least we learned, like in the in that chapter from building a cycling city is with the ring. It's this beautiful signature thing that people that work in cycling want to go and see. But it was actually quite affordable. And so when you're not building for cars, when you're building for walking and cycling, the budget can go down a bit and maybe you have more room for creativity, which is really nice.

00:18:34:24 - 00:18:45:09
Chris Bruntlett
It still blows my mind that that ring cost €5.8 million, which is, you know, a rounding error on a on a highway interchange.

00:18:45:17 - 00:18:52:00
John Simmerman
Well, it's probably a rounding error rounding error on the facility that's underneath the whole ring.

00:18:52:03 - 00:18:52:21
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah.

00:18:52:24 - 00:18:54:13
Speaker 4
Exactly. Yeah.

00:18:54:15 - 00:19:35:06
Chris Bruntlett
When you think of Yeah, the city branding, the tourism, the attention that Eindhoven has been able to attract as a result of that one piece of infrastructure. Yeah. I mean it's something that the Copenhagen I think has accomplished through this cycle Snake which is on the screen now is Yeah. A statement of intent. It's not a lot of money, but it's thoughtfully and well-designed and it's very shareable on social media and yeah, it's just puts this really positive and inclusive image of your city out there to the world rather than, well, nobody's sharing photos of car infrastructure unless it's to dunk on it.

00:19:35:08 - 00:19:58:05
John Simmerman
Exactly. Yeah. What's interesting about the cycle snake too and this is a great photo that exemplifies it is that interaction and articulation that it has with the the buildings around it. It's kind of cool. You're up elevated in and you're like, Oh yeah, there's all this elevation and all these, you know, cool stuff that you can then, you know, kind of circle down around and get to.

00:19:58:07 - 00:20:24:01
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah. And I think what's really interesting is I think it's yeah. When you get over to the other side of this bridge because of some of the construction projects that are happening, it's this massive basically bike only space with the exception of pedestrians are obviously in that space too. But yeah, you get down there and you're like, whoa, this is like I, you know, even coming from here, we had so much space when we got to the other side, which was a bit alarming.

00:20:24:03 - 00:20:25:11
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, but I think that's temporary.

00:20:25:11 - 00:20:26:23
Speaker 4
Yeah, due to the construction.

00:20:26:23 - 00:20:49:09
Chris Bruntlett
But still quite impressive to see. And then further up, you saw that's the intersection where they've taken the diagonal and rather than having to do a two faceless left turn, they've carried the blue paint diagonally through at the intersection just due to the vast number of cyclists that were taking a left turn on this intersection. So it's all a very linear route.

00:20:49:09 - 00:21:05:10
Chris Bruntlett
It's quite an important spine to their cycling network that gets you up from that intersection right down, I think 15 or 20 meters down to the harbor level. That's quite a vertical gap to bridge through the. Yeah, the design of this infrastructure.

00:21:05:12 - 00:21:06:19
Speaker 4
Mm hmm.

00:21:06:21 - 00:21:33:12
John Simmerman
And I jumped from that cycle snake photo, which featured a cargo bike over to a series of photos with a bunch of cargo bikes. Talk a little bit about what's special about the Copenhagen. The Denmark sort of orientation to cargo bikes. I find it very delightful. I've I've visited Copenhagen multiple times and I ended up doing the same thing, taking a lot of photos of some of the cargo bike activity.

00:21:33:15 - 00:21:35:18
John Simmerman
Walk us through what we're looking at here.

00:21:35:21 - 00:22:00:26
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah, well, I don't know exactly the context of the photo. It looks like somebody celebrating a birthday. I mean, I think it was a Saturday afternoon, if I remember. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, this is a fairly common sight. These most of these photos were probably taken in a single afternoon. And that the number of cargo bikes, the rate of cargo bike ownership in Copenhagen, I think is higher than any other city in the world, including most Dutch cities.

00:22:01:02 - 00:22:22:16
Chris Bruntlett
And they really have become normalized and accepted as a part of the mobility mix there. You see children, young and older adults all riding in the front bucket, getting wherever they need to go. It really has become the great car replacement tool for a lot of families.

00:22:22:18 - 00:22:28:12
John Simmerman
It's a great it's a great location for for stickers, too. I should Cinema streets or for people sticker? Yeah.

00:22:28:15 - 00:22:29:29
Melissa Bruntlett
Exactly.

00:22:30:01 - 00:22:30:09
Speaker 4
Well, and.

00:22:30:09 - 00:22:47:15
Melissa Bruntlett
I think it's interesting and we see this a little bit in the bigger cities in the Netherlands, too, is that, you know, a lot of people you see as as you said, you know, it's this alternative option or I wouldn't say alternative. That's not always a better word, but it's just a different option to getting around in a minivan.

00:22:47:17 - 00:23:03:13
Melissa Bruntlett
You see some so many families using it. And in big cities, this often becomes a really comfortable way for families to move around where they might not be as comfortable with younger children riding on their own bikes. But then you have this great tool. See, it's not it's not like riding a bike by yourself or ride in a car.

00:23:03:13 - 00:23:10:06
Melissa Bruntlett
It's ride a bike. Or we can get a cargo bike where maybe I feel a bit more comfortable moving with my kids, but I still see a lot of bike.

00:23:10:06 - 00:23:11:12
Speaker 4
Or your dogs.

00:23:11:14 - 00:23:14:11
John Simmerman
Yeah, your entire family. I mean, right here. Boom. Yeah.

00:23:14:13 - 00:23:16:25
Speaker 4
Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:16:27 - 00:23:38:23
John Simmerman
Go ahead, Chris. I was just going to say real quickly, is that what we've noticed is that sort of the design is is a little different. I mean, they really have leaned into the the trike configuration where you've got the two wheels in the front. And so rather than a, you know, a cargo bike, we're really looking at a cargo tricycle.

00:23:38:25 - 00:23:42:28
John Simmerman
So it is a little bit different on that you know since Yeah.

00:23:43:00 - 00:24:00:14
Chris Bruntlett
Now they've they've embraced the the the more boxy or kind of traditional Christiana cargo bike whereas here in the Netherlands the cargo bikes are certainly getting more sleek, more sophisticated, more with the Styrofoam buckets and the electric assist, the urban arrows.

00:24:00:14 - 00:24:10:00
John Simmerman
And it's a long it's the longer wheelbase, too. It's a it's a much longer vehicle to be able to accomplish that and still be stable. So.

00:24:10:03 - 00:24:11:06
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.

00:24:11:09 - 00:24:49:15
Chris Bruntlett
But I think yeah, the one point we always try to make around the cargo bikes is in some ways in a cycling city they are a sign of that. Maybe parents are 100% comfortable putting their eight or ten or 12 year olds on their own two wheels. And so they may be a sign that there's some discomfort and dissatisfaction with the quality of infrastructure there, that it's a bit to chaotic or unsafe and that the end game should be every eight year old can get on their own bike and not have to ride in the front pocket of cargo bike, but in you certainly see it in Amsterdam and in some of the busier cities

00:24:49:15 - 00:24:57:26
Chris Bruntlett
that cargo bikes are more prevalent there because the parents just don't quite feel comfortable, comfortable enough allowing their child to ride on their own two wheels.

00:24:57:28 - 00:25:18:24
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, whether that's like from the other bike traffic or even the existence of our traffic on the streets. And so the challenge, I guess, for a lot of cities is to think about where is that? You know, this is obviously quite positive. It's not they're not getting around in a minivan or SUV. How do we get it so that kids also feel comfortable cycling to school and to their local activities?

00:25:18:24 - 00:25:23:11
Melissa Bruntlett
And what what is the stress and how can we how can we support to address that?

00:25:23:13 - 00:25:24:06
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:25:24:09 - 00:25:45:02
John Simmerman
Yeah. That's a good point. And I hadn't thought about it in quite that same context before, but that that really makes a heck of a lot of sense. You know, obviously there's a certain amount of advantage to being able to to do this. Yeah. Okay. Hey, let's, let's all go to the park and is that are all how are we going to get the dogs out?

00:25:45:02 - 00:26:05:12
John Simmerman
Oh, okay. Well, let's do it this way because they're not going to get on their little doggie bikes and pedal their own. But so let's let's pop over to a little just briefly on a little bit of the differences. You just kind of tapped into that, Chris, there. So, you know, continue that theme and we'll just slide through this set of photos.

00:26:05:14 - 00:26:23:22
Melissa Bruntlett
To go to. If it was good for us, be able to go to Copenhagen and see what everyone else gets really excited about and we like we said earlier, we can see why people from Vancouver and the Pacific Northwest are really anywhere in North America or other very car dominated cities. Go to Copenhagen and they see what is what the potential is.

00:26:23:24 - 00:26:41:23
Melissa Bruntlett
I think, you know, comparing and contrasting to what we have now in terms of where we live now, you know, things like like you're showing the bikes on trains, you know, we we experience it. It was great. But we obviously also experienced the limitations of that. And, you know, we know there's a lot of complaints about in the Netherlands how you can't bring bikes on trains.

00:26:41:23 - 00:26:51:25
Melissa Bruntlett
But we also see where we experience full trains all the time. And now, you know, this was fantastic to go a little bit further and not have to cycle all the way to the south. I think this.

00:26:51:25 - 00:26:55:23
Chris Bruntlett
Was. But we still have to haul our bikes down through an elevator.

00:26:55:26 - 00:26:56:10
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:26:56:11 - 00:27:08:14
Chris Bruntlett
Load them under the train. Yeah. And obviously there's only so much scalability capacity to a system like this where, you know, our Dutch privilege is showing. But you.

00:27:08:14 - 00:27:08:20
Speaker 4
Know.

00:27:08:25 - 00:27:15:29
Chris Bruntlett
When, when you're talking about 600,000 bike train journeys a day, it just doesn't work with even a fraction of them.

00:27:16:00 - 00:27:16:23
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:27:16:25 - 00:27:51:22
John Simmerman
It's really it's really hard for for many people in other locations to understand the the context of that is that when you are running full transit, when you are running full trains, it's not easy just to be able to allow your your your transportation mode before and after you're said train trip on board, unless you do what I do and you have a Brompton and you can fold that socket down into the size of a suitcase or a large briefcase and and tuck it behind one of the seats or underneath one of these seats right here.

00:27:51:25 - 00:28:18:21
John Simmerman
And so that's one of the things that I've noticed is that as I'm traveling internationally and I drag my my little Brompton with me around the world is that I'm able to have that level of flexibility and also be able to ride to the train station, be able to ride from the train station, but at the same time not take up, quote unquote, too much space and become, you know, a a burden to my other compatriots who are riding the train.

00:28:18:23 - 00:28:39:03
Melissa Bruntlett
Which is a whole other trip, maybe a whole other show. But it just reminds me of when we were having the we're meeting a group of people in Barcelona at the beginning of this month. And the joke from the advocacy group is how many people arrived on a Brompton for exactly the reason you're talking about. And I think there was something like ten Brompton in the Roman.

00:28:39:06 - 00:28:51:21
John Simmerman
The Spanish. The Spanish have really leaned into that. I was literally interviewing Manuel Calvo yesterday and looking at some of the footage from Seville. And, you know, it's like Brompton. Brompton, Brompton.

00:28:51:23 - 00:28:53:14
Speaker 4
So.

00:28:53:16 - 00:28:54:06
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah.

00:28:54:09 - 00:28:57:14
John Simmerman
Fantastic. Okay, continue. Yes.

00:28:57:17 - 00:29:37:18
Chris Bruntlett
I mean, I think we have to be careful because, you know, we again, Copenhagen has accomplished a lot. But I think even when you talk to the people that live and work in Copenhagen, they'll be the first to admit that there's still a whole other level for them to achieve that is, in a lot of ways looks on the Dutch cities and the Dutch model with jealousy and aspiration, because a lot of what they've accomplished has been basically to put a psychopath down on every single street with very little consideration for reducing the amount of lanes of cars or the amount of car traffic.

00:29:37:21 - 00:30:09:07
Chris Bruntlett
So it still feels like a very car dominated city with bike lanes on every street, which is, of course, amazing from a North American view, But shouldn't be the end game for urbanists and for Copenhagen themselves that they should be really having these difficult conversations about traffic calming, traffic circulation, improving the design of their intersections, which, you know, we had conversations with one of the mayors of Copenhagen who came to the Dutch cycling embassy specifically to ask us about intersection design.

00:30:09:07 - 00:30:48:16
Chris Bruntlett
You know, there's still a lot of areas where the Copenhagen model has room for improvement. The the lack of bike parking at train stations, the other really areas where the system itself. Yeah. Doesn't live up to expectations sense or its potential. And of course there are huge numbers of people cycling there. But we would argue it's almost in spite of the infrastructure there and it works safely because of the sheer numbers and safety in numbers rather than really high quality comfortable cycling infrastructure and traffic calming.

00:30:48:18 - 00:31:04:07
Melissa Bruntlett
But I think our kids would say when we asked them at the end of the end of the cycle, how did it feel to cycle there? Like, yeah, no, it's comfortable. The intersections this light because we're very much used to not quite the same treatments and intersections, but you know, for our two teenagers they found it quite enjoyable.

00:31:04:07 - 00:31:24:13
Melissa Bruntlett
So yeah, as Chris said, from a North American perspective, if Copenhagen was the very first city we had, cycling city we had traveled to, I think it would have had the same and numbering process as everyone else that we know. And we that doesn't mean that people shouldn't still go and learn from it because there's a lot to learn from Copenhagen and a lot that can be applied around the world for sure.

00:31:24:15 - 00:31:26:05
Chris Bruntlett
Again, that's a privilege. Yeah.

00:31:26:06 - 00:31:30:28
Speaker 4
Yeah, exactly. Well, and I actually.

00:31:31:00 - 00:32:03:18
John Simmerman
Put Copenhagen in sort of the same bucket that I put Rotterdam for, for slightly different reasons. But I like to point to those as two cities that are good examples for North American cities that are trying to move away from car centricity or, you know, cities around the globe that are doing the same thing. They they maybe they have wide boulevards and streets and it's been car centric design and they're looking for will, how do we achieve that next incremental step, which is very nicely illustrated in this photo here?

00:32:03:20 - 00:32:30:05
John Simmerman
Okay. Well, what can we do to put in a generous cycle path in that is parking protected? There's still lanes for cars in and be able to make that next incremental step not quite Delft level of traffic calming and sort of, you know people centric design, but it is a nice incremental step to weaning ourselves off of drive everywhere for everything.

00:32:30:08 - 00:32:32:14
John Simmerman
Super high speeds.

00:32:32:16 - 00:32:33:05
Melissa Bruntlett
Exactly.

00:32:33:06 - 00:32:34:23
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:32:34:25 - 00:32:58:20
John Simmerman
Very, very fascinating. And of course we've got the Danish blue in the the intersection areas here. And yes, I would concur. That's that's one of the biggest challenges is we don't see as many of the protected infrastructure, you know, at the intersections. It's sort of like, okay, we're going to slap some paint down here to indicate that this is a conflict zone.

00:32:58:23 - 00:33:09:24
John Simmerman
It's very analogous to what a lot of North American cities are doing with just, you know, giving up at the intersection and painting some green across that conflict zone.

00:33:09:27 - 00:33:34:09
Melissa Bruntlett
And I think for a place like Copenhagen, it works because of that sheer volume of people on bikes. And so, you know, cars now blue means there's going to be lots of people coming through here and they adjust their behavior in the same way that on certain streets where maybe we don't have it's on a cycle street here or it's not all roads all paved red or there's not bike lanes, people in driving will behave accordingly because they know they're going to see bikes.

00:33:34:12 - 00:33:40:14
Melissa Bruntlett
But it comes with the sheer number. But how do we how do we make sure people are safe before we get to that volume?

00:33:40:19 - 00:34:05:00
John Simmerman
Yeah, my my last trip to Copenhagen was when in 2019, Laura and I just, you know, sort of jumped on the plane, went over there. We had our brampton's with us because it was as part of a Dutch trip that we were on anyways. And we did the stuff that we enjoy doing, which is writing from the airport, writing to the airport.

00:34:05:00 - 00:34:28:19
John Simmerman
So we wrote our bikes to scribble and then rode our bikes from the Copenhagen airport into the the little Airbnb apartment that we had there in the I can't remember the name of that neighborhood. We were in there in Copenhagen, but it was really nice to just sort of settle in for a couple of days of being able to zip around and do that kind of good stuff.

00:34:28:22 - 00:34:34:04
John Simmerman
And then we connected with you all later in during that trip. So that was fun.

00:34:34:06 - 00:34:42:09
Melissa Bruntlett
For those that maybe curious, the activities for the kids in Copenhagen were nice. It's not in Copenhagen, but it was the Lego House collection.

00:34:42:16 - 00:34:44:13
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:44:13 - 00:34:53:02
Melissa Bruntlett
And that's really how it was. Tivoli. Tivoli Gardens. So yeah, we had our amusement park as well, including a she and I.

00:34:53:03 - 00:34:55:04
John Simmerman
There is the Lego. Here's the Lego.

00:34:55:05 - 00:34:56:28
Speaker 4
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

00:34:57:00 - 00:35:01:12
John Simmerman
How far away is that to visit the Lego City?

00:35:01:15 - 00:35:10:03
Melissa Bruntlett
It's not an easy trip in terms of time from Copenhagen to Finland. It was a train and then a bus. I think it was 2 hours almost.

00:35:10:09 - 00:35:13:29
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. Which it almost made it a bit too far for a day trip. But we made it.

00:35:14:00 - 00:35:15:00
Speaker 4
Work anyway, and we.

00:35:15:00 - 00:35:23:01
Chris Bruntlett
Were told that it's. There's not a direct train to Berlin right now because it's under construction. There will in the next couple of years. Okay.

00:35:23:03 - 00:35:26:14
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

00:35:26:16 - 00:35:32:12
Melissa Bruntlett
But there is something to be said for about having that amusement park right in the center of the city. And it was. Yeah.

00:35:32:14 - 00:35:34:05
Speaker 4
Oh.

00:35:34:07 - 00:35:37:21
John Simmerman
Okay. Let's jump over to Stockholm.

00:35:37:24 - 00:35:38:15
Chris Bruntlett
Sweden.

00:35:38:17 - 00:35:58:18
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, Stockholm was stop number two. Yeah, I think we, I mean, I think we just picked Stockholm because it, we wanted to go and it made the most sense for the train journeys. We also had some work on our list and had heard came from looking for a quieter city. It might be a good place to go, but it extended our journey too much.

00:35:58:18 - 00:36:00:03
Melissa Bruntlett
So that's. That's a trip for another time.

00:36:00:10 - 00:36:05:22
John Simmerman
Okay, Now real quick, did you, did you guys skip over Melman?

00:36:05:24 - 00:36:15:21
Melissa Bruntlett
Well, we started Melman because our train direct from Copenhagen got canceled. I had to jump over it. And so we just really experienced the train station.

00:36:15:21 - 00:36:52:18
Chris Bruntlett
But yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, but the area around the train station was quite pleasant, and I think we definitely need to need to go back. But in this instance, yeah, we had to hop on the high speed train to Stockholm and they. Yeah, the real kind of the cool thing about Stockholm, again, having friendly faces in every city means that somebody out there that's excited to show off their city to you and in this case, earlier in the year at Bella City in Leipzig, I had connected with the Lars Strong friend who was a long time cycling advocate.

00:36:52:21 - 00:37:21:07
Chris Bruntlett
He was the, I think, executive director at the Swedish Cycling Union, but was recently elected deputy mayor of Stockholm for mobility and urbanism and was just fresh in the job six months and very excited to show off his city from that perspective. So he invited us first to City Hall to sit in his office for coffee, and he took out all these maps and talked about his plans and really engaged with the children in particular.

00:37:21:14 - 00:37:52:02
Chris Bruntlett
That's then their opinions on certain parts of the city. But then we were lucky enough to get out on our bikes and spend a couple of hours cycling around Stockholm, including experiencing a lot of their summer streets. And what you're seeing on the screen here is one of, I think, 55 arteries in Stockholm that they opened to people during the summertime as kind of demonstration projects and really activate the spaces and encourage people to sit and dine and play.

00:37:52:02 - 00:38:10:18
Chris Bruntlett
And yeah, here's another one here. I mean, either way. So I think that was one of the more impressive or enjoyable parts of Stockholm was seeing all of these streets. But unfortunately they were the summer activations and were going away in September.

00:38:10:20 - 00:38:30:19
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, it did spur a lovely sort of connection that, you know, glass was really good at connecting with the kids. And he asked the kids, quite honestly, what do you think about what we've got going on? And as he had had just said earlier, that he's like, why is there a highway going through the city? And so he said to Lars, you should get rid of the highway.

00:38:30:21 - 00:38:37:11
Melissa Bruntlett
And Lars was like, Thank you. It's on my mind.

00:38:37:14 - 00:38:51:23
John Simmerman
I mean, that's powerful, though, right? When you hear it from a, you know, a child and saying, yeah, why? What this this is a non cycle. This does not make sense. Why are you doing this to yourselves?

00:38:51:26 - 00:38:52:18
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah.

00:38:52:21 - 00:39:28:18
Chris Bruntlett
We I mean, it was just the evening before we were walking through the medieval center, Stockholm, packed with tourists, Beautiful, historic area. And all you can hear is the drone of motor vehicles in the background because there's an elevated motorway that runs right through the center of the city. And Lars was. Yeah, it was his cards close to his chest, but he kind of spelled out his timeline a little bit and he's like, First we need to do this project in this project, and then maybe around 2030 we'll be ready to take the highway.

00:39:28:21 - 00:39:29:29
Speaker 4
Wow. Wow.

00:39:30:01 - 00:39:49:18
John Simmerman
And not to plug another book. But you talk about that. You talk about noise in your your second book and how damaging and pervasive and insidious automobile noise in particular is when we're exposed to it continuously within a city. So, yeah.

00:39:49:21 - 00:40:08:24
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, yeah. And it's I mean, yes, you know, for as beautiful the old city as for in in Stockholm. Yes they do have a lot of cars still going on, a lot of the major streets in the rest of the city. But there was still a feeling of of quiet and calm, not necessarily just in the old city center, but along the neighborhood streets.

00:40:08:24 - 00:40:10:10
Chris Bruntlett
So there's Lance.

00:40:10:12 - 00:40:12:22
Speaker 4
Yeah, on the maps.

00:40:12:25 - 00:40:19:05
Melissa Bruntlett
He says he gets a real kick out of every meeting involves a map is what he told us. It's all about drawing and showing. Yeah.

00:40:19:07 - 00:40:54:03
Chris Bruntlett
But the the image you showed one earlier, There's a funny story about that is there was a, a municipal ban on removing car parking spaces or some kind of antiquated reason why certain businesses and couldn't reallocate the curb space outside. But in this case it's the Netherlands embassy. They use their diplomatic immunity to put out a car parking space and allow people to park their bicycle there.

00:40:54:03 - 00:41:05:29
Chris Bruntlett
So I think it was a cool kind of a little bit of leadership there from the Dutch in trying to show how silly that that rule is. And ways to work around it.

00:41:06:01 - 00:41:07:00
Speaker 4
Yeah, Yeah.

00:41:07:02 - 00:41:34:16
Melissa Bruntlett
I think a big highlight for us, not necessarily was the summer streets and that's like getting the bike to work but I think was accidental. But we discovered that Stockholm has put a big effort into when they put in their metro line to lighten things up and because they have so many dark summer months. So we discovered that their metro stations are all quite create not all of them, but many of them are quite creatively decorated.

00:41:34:18 - 00:41:35:26
Melissa Bruntlett
And so we ended up.

00:41:35:29 - 00:41:38:21
Chris Bruntlett
It was our last night in Stockholm. We did see the kids.

00:41:38:21 - 00:41:41:06
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, they were not interested.

00:41:41:08 - 00:41:59:25
Chris Bruntlett
And you and I, with our cameras in hand, the beautiful guided tours that you can find on the internet that point out the best of the best stations. And so we got a two hour or four hour metro ticket and yeah, raced from station to station just to try and soak it all in.

00:41:59:28 - 00:42:00:25
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:42:00:27 - 00:42:23:22
Melissa Bruntlett
It's just a really clever way to make it more interesting. And you know, obviously some of the stations are a lot more spectacular than others, like one with a rainbow in it. But even like for myself, I don't necessarily like being underground. And actually there was one time during the tour with Lars where we went through a bike tunnel and you could see the mountain above me, which I did not enjoy.

00:42:23:24 - 00:42:43:00
Melissa Bruntlett
But to go in and see how they reused, the fact that they had to blast through rock to create these and add some art and a space that a lot of people are using, which yeah, I think we really enjoyed it. I think, you know, the one downside is you obviously have to pay to play that you have to actually see it.

00:42:43:00 - 00:42:44:21
Melissa Bruntlett
They have to be able.

00:42:44:23 - 00:42:44:27
Speaker 4
To.

00:42:44:27 - 00:43:06:27
Melissa Bruntlett
Pay for a ticket to get into the station in the first place. Right. But it's a nice you know, I do appreciate a good subway art. I love Montreal's retro seventies never changing stations or it just because it's nostalgia. But you know, we like going through in Paris and seeing what they have. So this was just a nice addition to the lovely subway systems we can experience.

00:43:07:03 - 00:43:08:06
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:43:08:09 - 00:43:34:26
John Simmerman
This is fun. I mean, it's very it's it's nice to have something that's a little whimsical and different that you can, you know, it again, throw some light and some paint and a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And it just creates that sense of fun while you are just going about your daily business of trying to get from point A to point B is very cool.

00:43:34:28 - 00:43:48:25
Chris Bruntlett
And I think there was this funny moment where we were like crouching down on the ground trying to get the best camera angle and it's just like commuters rolling their eyes at us, you know, another another another photographer, amateur photographer trying.

00:43:48:25 - 00:43:49:24
John Simmerman
To.

00:43:49:26 - 00:43:50:10
Chris Bruntlett
Put in for.

00:43:50:10 - 00:43:57:26
John Simmerman
That is merit more tourists. There's this crazy Dutch. What are they doing? And notice how I said Dutch, not Canadians.

00:43:57:28 - 00:44:00:09
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:44:00:11 - 00:44:07:09
John Simmerman
All right. So then we decide what the heck. Let's let's, America, make our way to Oslo, Norway.

00:44:07:12 - 00:44:30:21
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah. So I got to see. Yeah, it was not a lot and not short train, but yeah, we hopped on the train from. From Stockholm to Oslo. I got to walk around there for half a day after a conference. I went to in my last year, this time last year. And so I was really excited to bring everyone back a little bit worried because I think we were all getting a little bit tired of urbanism and then we found this.

00:44:30:21 - 00:44:32:27
Melissa Bruntlett
This was his his thing. Is this.

00:44:32:29 - 00:44:33:14
Chris Bruntlett
My thing?

00:44:33:16 - 00:44:34:21
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:44:34:24 - 00:45:16:11
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. And I think all of us, all four of us were quite with Oslo in particular, because it's a big city of one plus million people. But it really embraces an activates its natural spaces and this is the perfect example of that it's the or sell the river walk, which is an eight kilometer long urban walk if you can call it urban, because it starts at one of the lakes on the outskirts of the city, in the forest, and really kind of goes through, follows the route of this river all the way to Oslo Central Station in the heart of the city following the old industrial areas.

00:45:16:11 - 00:45:39:10
Chris Bruntlett
So factories, brick factories, iron wrought iron bridges and really kind of yeah, I guess we would refer to it as kind of a forest bath, but I really enjoyed walking the whole eight kilometer route, all four of us, and, you know, stopping at various points along the way. But it was probably one of.

00:45:39:10 - 00:45:46:06
Melissa Bruntlett
Delicious tacos you need to remember. I mention that we went for tacos and they were amazing.

00:45:46:08 - 00:46:11:00
Chris Bruntlett
But it's, you know, there's a lot of businesses and amenities that have popped up along this walk. Yeah, I think there's not enough opportunities like that within cities to really feel like your welcoming space or restorative space and that you're away from the hustle and bustle of the city. But in this case, we didn't really feel like we were in the countryside when we were walking right through the spine of Oslo.

00:46:11:06 - 00:46:13:12
Speaker 4
Mhm. Yeah.

00:46:13:15 - 00:46:25:05
John Simmerman
And Melissa, I believe that you had the opportunity to, to meet up with Professor Daniel Koski at Oslo met was that at that conference the previous year.

00:46:25:05 - 00:46:25:14
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:46:25:16 - 00:46:46:17
Melissa Bruntlett
Okay. Conference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was nice to, nice to have a friendly connection. Yeah. He came over and introduced myself so we know John. So it was nice to have that. Yeah. Away from home. Home connection. Even though home in this case is all of North America. Yeah. No, it's always nice to finally faces around the world.

00:46:46:24 - 00:47:11:20
John Simmerman
Yeah, that's great. And soon to be a another Island Press published author as well. So I'm excited to see his book come out. Okay, so now we're in the Irvine City Center of of Oslo and I'm seeing something that's missing here. I mean, if this is going to be a vibrant city, why aren't there cars?

00:47:11:22 - 00:47:34:23
Melissa Bruntlett
I mean, to be fair, they're not too far away. But I think that's one of the that I noticed the first time I went to Oslo and then we we experienced again is, you know, a lot of people talk about, you know, you get out the station at Amsterdam Central and it's so quiet and we have the same experience when we come back to self are traveling as you walk out of the station and it's quiet and people think this is an experience you can only have at a Dutch train station.

00:47:34:23 - 00:48:00:26
Melissa Bruntlett
But when you walk out of Oslo Central, it's pedestrians, it's a few bikes. Like there's not necessarily a lot of bikes living around, but it's it's growing and then there's crowds and that's it. And then you walk directly onto this Pedestrianized street and so that it's the same experience I walked out after a busy conference. We walk out for being on a train for 8 hours and it's just quiet and there's just it's just the sound of people.

00:48:00:26 - 00:48:11:13
Melissa Bruntlett
And so it's just this great proof that it's not this like secret that can only be achieved in the Netherlands if it exists in other cities and definitely in Oslo. And I think it's helped.

00:48:11:21 - 00:48:12:26
Speaker 4
I think it was.

00:48:12:28 - 00:48:38:18
Chris Bruntlett
Quite a contrast coming from Stockholm that we're piloting these car free streets to a city that has implemented them on a permanent basis. Yeah, it's part of a specific low car livability strategy to improve the economic vitality, the social fabric of the city, and yeah, there's a lot of really great spaces for people not just in the center of Oslo, but stretching into the residential areas.

00:48:38:18 - 00:48:59:08
Chris Bruntlett
This is a completely car free shopping street in the north east of the city. It's just trams gliding through there and it's just lined with pedestrians and terraces and really busy shops and yeah, lots of green space. And we find ourselves going back there quite a few times throughout our stay.

00:48:59:11 - 00:49:17:18
Melissa Bruntlett
Mm hmm. Yeah. And then, of course you know, all of that just helps to complement their their commitment to Vision Zero. And Oslo is often touted as one of the cities that's been able to actually achieve that goal. And that isn't true. You know, it's not by accident. It's very much because of a lot of these these programs that we got to experience.

00:49:17:18 - 00:49:19:02
Melissa Bruntlett
We were there.

00:49:19:05 - 00:49:58:00
John Simmerman
I appreciate to, Melissa, what you said about how in Stockholm they were piloting these installations in these interventions, whereas Oslo has made a firm commitment. I was reminded when I was reminiscing about the car free day that I was able to attend to in Paris in September of 2015, and soon after that, Oslo had announced their initiative to really boldly move forward with a plan to try to, you know, cut their addiction to automobiles, which was still very much relevant in in the fourth quarter of 2015.

00:49:58:03 - 00:50:28:07
John Simmerman
I know that they're ambitious plans that they had announced back then didn't come to fruition, but it seems like there's definitely some major success stories that we can point to, including, you know, some of these car free streets as well as, as you mentioned, with Vision Zero and actually being able to achieve, you know, a massive decrease in the number of fatalities, you know, on the streets of Oslo.

00:50:28:09 - 00:50:39:15
John Simmerman
It's know they're there. It's challenging and they're not getting to where they originally had envisioned. But what I'm seeing here and it sounds like what you have experienced is really quite impressive.

00:50:39:18 - 00:51:06:11
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah. And we will see it again in the other cities that we visited as well. And I've seen it in a couple others that I've had the opportunity to visit in the last year or so. Also. But, you know, there's this interesting sort of dichotomy happening in Norway where, you know, there is there seems to be this commitment to try to move towards more sustainability, more safety, but they still do very much rely on cars, topography obviously being one of the big reasons why.

00:51:06:11 - 00:51:32:00
Melissa Bruntlett
But also the distances. I mean, we come from Canada, we know that cities are far apart and sometimes, you know, there aren't always alternatives. And so they're in this weird, challenging place right now is how do we shift to getting people more access to more options for transport and shifting away from cars in a challenging place where, you know, a lot of their economy does rely on car based economy?

00:51:32:00 - 00:51:42:09
Melissa Bruntlett
So yeah, it'll be interesting in the years to come to see how they start to address that or if they start to address that or how they find different solutions to those challenges.

00:51:42:10 - 00:52:05:24
John Simmerman
And you were very coy there mentioning, you know, car based economy. I mean, in Professor Peter Koski and I were having this discussion at Abdullah City in Leipzig, Germany, a few months ago. And, you know, I basically just point blank asked him, you know, hey, I mean, you guys are like a major oil producing country politically. I mean, how is that really sitting?

00:52:05:24 - 00:52:42:11
John Simmerman
This is yeah, it's it's a bit of a challenge, you know, when your economy is so based on this addiction to, you know, propelling this forward. But it's interesting how the culture can kind of divide that and say, oh, yeah, there's that. Yeah, we're we're producing oil and gas. But at the same time, this is important too. So it is interesting to see how they're navigating and deftly walking that fine line of a commitment towards safer streets, a commitment towards trying to do something about global warming as well.

00:52:42:11 - 00:52:46:28
John Simmerman
As you know, that's part of their economy.

00:52:47:01 - 00:52:58:00
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, Yeah. And you know, we've seen in other places when that economic driver is taken away that there's obviously negative knock on effects.

00:52:58:00 - 00:52:59:00
Speaker 4
But yeah.

00:52:59:03 - 00:53:08:20
Melissa Bruntlett
I don't know. I think I'm I'm always optimistically hopeful that a lot of these places will find new solutions. But maybe that's just my blissful optimism.

00:53:08:27 - 00:53:11:06
Speaker 4
Well, it's incredibly.

00:53:11:06 - 00:53:35:04
John Simmerman
Powerful when you experience these cities that become more people oriented. And in the previous, you know, series of photos, we were looking at mostly pedestrian zones. Now we're going to start to look at some of the the Oslo cycle infrastructure and how they are embracing. And the one thing that Professor POCHOWSKI Daniel mentioned to me was that I think he did get himself a cargo bike.

00:53:35:04 - 00:53:55:05
John Simmerman
And so he's, you know, taking this step into that realm because he got to to kids and he's like, you know, because he doesn't need it to get to work. He can literally walk to work. So, you know, it's that's something that they're working on now. So let's let's you take a look at cycling in Norway here.

00:53:55:08 - 00:53:56:18
Melissa Bruntlett
Going by play.

00:53:56:21 - 00:53:59:07
Speaker 4
By play.

00:53:59:10 - 00:54:38:27
Chris Bruntlett
Well, I think, you know are we as you undoubtedly see on social media, always get the same bad faith arguments in our comment section and in our replies? Yeah, but the Netherlands is flat. Yeah, but they don't have winter there yet. But yeah but yeah but yeah but and you know it, it was quite inspiring to see what is a very hilly, mountainous city that gets its fair share of snow in the wintertime, going all in on its cycling infrastructure.

00:54:39:00 - 00:54:51:05
Chris Bruntlett
And it's not by no means perfect, but they are where they can applying pretty high level infrastructure. That's a pretty hilly street right there. I mean that looks.

00:54:51:05 - 00:54:52:06
John Simmerman
Like great, great show.

00:54:52:09 - 00:55:36:05
Chris Bruntlett
That could be San Francisco. San Francisco. But providing physical separation where it's necessary, providing low traffic, local streets where they can to complement that and building out this network. And the numbers are still quite low. I think it's somewhere between five and 10% of journeys. But they have a road map and they have some political commitments. And yeah, watch, watch Oslo, because I think even while Jason Slaughter did a whole old video on on cycling in Oslo and kind of predicted it would be one of the world's next best cycling cities, I don't know if I've seen enough to agree, but it's it's certainly one to watch in the in the years ahead.

00:55:36:08 - 00:55:44:02
John Simmerman
Yeah it's I'm really just soaking up a lot of these images. Yeah.

00:55:44:04 - 00:55:51:10
Chris Bruntlett
This is an interesting example because it's like they didn't want to choose between the bike path and the tree, so they kept them both.

00:55:51:15 - 00:55:52:28
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:55:53:01 - 00:56:15:05
John Simmerman
And I see I see this image imagery, you know, frequently, literally. I mentioned that I was chatting with Manu Calvo from from Seville, and we paused on a photo just like this in a recording session where they needed to save the tree. And in that case it was a two way cycle track. And they literally just split the lanes and went right around the tree.

00:56:15:08 - 00:56:38:09
John Simmerman
Kept the tree. You know, it's like we're not giving up on that tree, especially in a place like Seville, where they need the tree canopy for the heat, for sure. But what was the orientation to motor vehicle speeds like I see on this street? I saw the previous photo was 40 kilometers per hour, and I'm like even 40 kilometers.

00:56:38:09 - 00:57:10:16
John Simmerman
That's kind of an odd one. You know, I'm used to the Dutch approach of it's kind of either, you know, 30 or 50 kilometers per hour. And we're trying to phase out those dawn 50 kilometer per hour ones, because those are the fatalities. And serious injury rates on those streets are not very much worth crowing about. But yeah, it would this street have been, since it's the orientation of it with this street, most likely be a 30 kilometers per hour street.

00:57:10:18 - 00:57:14:10
Melissa Bruntlett
I wasn't paying attention. When you're walking along it, you know better.

00:57:14:12 - 00:57:29:08
Chris Bruntlett
They are. I mean, they are going kind of all in on the 30 kilometer hour on as many streets as possible. You will occasionally see 40, I think, as an intermediary step or as a political compromise, maybe. Right, right, right. Yeah.

00:57:29:11 - 00:57:42:00
John Simmerman
But and it's it's I can understand that. Okay. Well, we do have like a little bit of a physical separation here, but I still cringe really, 40 kilometers per hour.

00:57:42:03 - 00:57:43:05
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:57:43:07 - 00:58:08:10
Chris Bruntlett
And this was down by the harbor, the the docks. So I think it was a lot of freight trucks. And and maybe this was a with the the logistic companies along those routes, but a nice raised crosswalk there which again we're we're still all too rare in urban environments. But in this case you know they've.

00:58:08:13 - 00:58:09:27
John Simmerman
You know it kind of looks.

00:58:10:03 - 00:58:11:09
Chris Bruntlett
Like details right.

00:58:11:12 - 00:58:19:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. I mean can you tell I mean, to me, it looks like it might have been actually a retrofit.

00:58:19:27 - 00:58:42:20
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah. So this this is part of the newer development that's happening along the waterfront. And so, yeah, this would have been like a former I think it's probably part what would have been the highway that eventually they've buried underneath the waterways to free up this land to do the development they've done and to quiet up space. I mean, to be fair, it's probably more about the development than quieting in a lot of ways, but it's a nice byproduct.

00:58:42:22 - 00:58:55:19
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, I think in that case are looking at how do we take the old streets that we have and, make them work for the purpose of what we're trying to do here. In that case, that area is still under construction. So doing it in a way that can be adapted as needed.

00:58:55:22 - 00:59:09:02
John Simmerman
Well, this this photo actually may be a hint towards that other street that we were questioning and talking about because it looks like a similar type of edge lane road treatment here. And in the 30 kilometers per hour sign in that area. So.

00:59:09:04 - 00:59:10:14
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.

00:59:10:16 - 00:59:23:22
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I think overall, yeah, overall I think Oslo, everyone it was, it was everyone's favorite. So then I started wearing it. The rest of the trip would be a tailspin down.

00:59:23:24 - 00:59:26:27
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. From there.

00:59:27:00 - 00:59:47:27
Melissa Bruntlett
But I think, you know, we've taken our kids to so many big cities and they've kind of said enough is enough. And in Oslo, everyone had a good time. Everyone enjoyed themselves. We got to do some cool things. We got to take a tour of the opera House, which I highly recommend people do. It's very cool. And with Leo now studying for a theater production, we got to go backstage as well, which was also.

00:59:48:01 - 00:59:48:19
Speaker 4
Oh, very.

00:59:48:22 - 00:59:49:23
Melissa Bruntlett
Cool.

00:59:49:25 - 00:59:50:29
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:59:51:01 - 00:59:54:01
Melissa Bruntlett
Well, personalized tour. It is part of the tour. Absolutely.

00:59:54:01 - 00:59:55:11
Speaker 4
Absolutely.

00:59:55:14 - 01:00:08:11
John Simmerman
Well, you mentioned travel, and so we've got a whole bunch of travel photos here as you're making your way around to different locations. Is this train travel?

01:00:08:13 - 01:00:10:09
Speaker 4
No.

01:00:10:11 - 01:00:43:21
Melissa Bruntlett
This was like and this was almost our very last thing that we did so prior to this, we had we taking the train up to Trondheim, and then this was between the trip journey from Oslo and there's this historic rail line called the Flam Railway Flam, I think is how they say it. And we yeah, we decided to stop off halfway, take this train line down to the if so, I didn't mention at the beginning, but part of this rail journey was also inspired by all the beautiful railway journeys of the world shows that came up during the pandemic.

01:00:43:24 - 01:00:58:09
Melissa Bruntlett
And this line was on it. And so it became part of our trip and we wanted to do something when we got to Flam because you can't just get there and then get back on the train and go back up. So those images you saw earlier were a floating sauna on the fjord.

01:00:58:10 - 01:00:59:07
Speaker 4
Nice.

01:00:59:10 - 01:01:09:20
Melissa Bruntlett
Where you slide down into the water. Yeah. Which it's not too expensive, but we would highly recommend that anyone and everyone do it. It was it was awesome.

01:01:09:22 - 01:01:13:21
John Simmerman
This is just awful. This is so ugly.

01:01:13:24 - 01:01:17:27
Speaker 4
I know. Just terrible. Boring. Yes.

01:01:18:00 - 01:01:21:26
John Simmerman
You definitely getting your green fix on this trip.

01:01:21:28 - 01:01:23:19
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:23:22 - 01:01:26:17
John Simmerman
And the accommodations.

01:01:26:20 - 01:01:26:29
Speaker 4
Yeah.

01:01:27:01 - 01:01:55:14
Chris Bruntlett
Very nice. Yeah. Well, that was the that was the last train journey of the entire trip was the night train from Bergen to Oslo. And, yeah, I'd be lying if I said I got a good night's sleep. It was quite shaky and noisy, but still. Yeah. You get your, your accommodation and your transportation rolled into one and. Yeah, that was a nice way to end the trip.

01:01:55:21 - 01:01:56:27
Speaker 4
Mm hmm. For sure.

01:01:57:00 - 01:01:59:17
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah. We did pay a little bit extra, so the kids had their own berth.

01:01:59:24 - 01:02:01:22
Speaker 4
Which was very nice.

01:02:01:25 - 01:02:11:14
John Simmerman
Very good. Good move there for sure. So we also have some reflections here from Trondheim.

01:02:11:16 - 01:02:14:03
Speaker 4
Mm hmm. Yeah. So I think.

01:02:14:05 - 01:02:16:27
Melissa Bruntlett
I don't know why we picked Trondheim.

01:02:16:29 - 01:02:17:16
Speaker 4
Other than the.

01:02:17:16 - 01:02:18:29
Chris Bruntlett
Third biggest city.

01:02:19:01 - 01:02:20:08
Speaker 4
In Norway.

01:02:20:11 - 01:02:30:03
Melissa Bruntlett
It does have the bicycle lift. So, you know, that was on the list of like, see the bicycle lift. Okay. But it was just I think it was a really great small scale city.

01:02:30:05 - 01:02:32:19
Chris Bruntlett
400 kilometers from the Arctic Circle.

01:02:32:22 - 01:02:34:07
Speaker 4
Yeah. Okay.

01:02:34:09 - 01:02:56:15
Chris Bruntlett
Yeah. So quite up there in terms of latitude. Yeah. I mean, I think an urbanist perspective, it may not be the most interesting city in the world. It's still very much a touristy kind of town. It's not doing too much walking and cycling on public transport, but this is a nice little mini break for all of us.

01:02:56:17 - 01:03:15:23
Melissa Bruntlett
But I think one thing that when we talk about this, this is the tram that we took. We talked about this with the Norwegian Road Authority when they invited us to come and talk about our trip with them is it's great that they have this really old tram line. It takes you up to the mountain, to Leon, which is the name on the tram there, and we went hiking.

01:03:15:23 - 01:03:29:22
Melissa Bruntlett
And to have that access, I think it's something that we really appreciate it to be able to leave the city and get into nature to go for a hike. And it's something that was always a little bit challenging for us. And in Vancouver.

01:03:29:24 - 01:03:30:00
Speaker 4
We'd.

01:03:30:00 - 01:03:30:14
Chris Bruntlett
Have to rent a.

01:03:30:14 - 01:03:31:24
Speaker 4
Car. Yeah.

01:03:31:26 - 01:04:00:19
Melissa Bruntlett
Or take a lot of busses and long, long Skytrain rides. So yeah, to be able to go and have another forest path and, you know, be next to water wasn't warm enough to swim. Unfortunately, it was a bit cold that day. But I think it's something that I would hope the people that live in Trondheim or Bergen has something similar, even in Norway or sorry, Oslo, that they appreciate as they have this access to nature right in their city that a lot of people would be quite jealous of.

01:04:00:21 - 01:04:31:16
Chris Bruntlett
And you can get up to the top of the mountain for whatever the €2 fare. And they we were told the really interesting story behind that tram as it was very nearly ripped out with the rest of Trondheim Tram Network after the Second World War. And it was only because of a group of enthusiasts, tram enthusiasts protested to keep the tracks and then put up the money to keep it running for a couple of years through fundraising and and and the like.

01:04:31:16 - 01:04:58:10
Chris Bruntlett
And then eventually the regional authorities decided to take it back over again. But it's the one and only tram that's remaining. That was quite an extensive network. And it was I mean, it was quite busy on the day we wrote it, but with people just getting to the residential areas that are snaking up the mountain, but then of course, taking their their walk or their hike or wherever.

01:04:58:12 - 01:05:24:10
John Simmerman
They love to amplify. Before we get to Bergen, I'd love to amplify what you just said there, Melissa, about the fact that it's so incredibly important for cities to. Think about having access to activity, assets and access to nature for people who don't drive, don't have access to a car. It to me is bogus that, you know, so much of what we have in North America, if you don't have a car, you can't get to the mountains.

01:05:24:10 - 01:05:53:04
John Simmerman
If you don't have a car, you can't get to that park. And and then you end up having these ridiculously large parking lots, you know, associated with these parks because, you know, you just can't get there from here, you know, from your home. You have to be able to, you know, to drive there. And so having meaningful or safe alternatives, you know, to them, automobile is incredibly important.

01:05:53:04 - 01:06:20:14
John Simmerman
Whether that is a tram, I could just imagine trams, you know, getting people to various ski resorts and in British Columbia or in Colorado having access to, you know, wonderful pathways like what we saw along the river there in Oslo, where that pathway is, is both access to nature. And, you know, it gets into the city. And it's also an easy escape from the city down to nature, too.

01:06:20:22 - 01:06:46:12
John Simmerman
So I think it's really, really important to to amplify that fact that cities need to be thinking about these ways, that you can feed nature, you can feed parks. And one of the initiatives that we have here in the United States is the TPO. The Trust for Public Land has an initiative of every single resident, should be a ten minute walk from a park, a trail, an open space.

01:06:46:15 - 01:06:59:29
John Simmerman
And I think that that's kind of like one of those baseline levels of treating your your residents with a certain level of dignity, of being able to to access and access parks. So I really appreciate that. Yeah.

01:07:00:01 - 01:07:03:16
Speaker 4
Yeah. Now in Brno. Yeah.

01:07:03:19 - 01:07:21:17
Melissa Bruntlett
Well, I just thought I would add to that that you know, we talk a lot about, you know, aging in place and cities being able to be places where our seniors can age in place. And part of that includes that access to nature to help with their moods. But also that access for for kids, again, the people that maybe don't have access to a car but should have the same access.

01:07:21:21 - 01:07:54:10
Chris Bruntlett
Well, yeah. What's to say that? I mean, I think the reason that urbanists go to Berghain these days is to see and I'm not even going to try and pronounce it the Berlin doll instead of falling. Just follow the brand new Brand new just opened in the spring of this year. Walking and cycling tunnel. The cuts three almost three kilometers, I believe, through the center of this mountain in the north of Bergen.

01:07:54:12 - 01:08:23:22
Chris Bruntlett
And it's really a showstopper of a project. I mean, even the photos don't quite do do it justice, something that well, as the the project managers told us was kind of an afterthought, a byproduct of an evacuation tunnel that they had to build for the tramway that was also being cut through the mountain. And they just decided, hey, let's do something with this space, let's activate it.

01:08:23:25 - 01:08:30:22
Chris Bruntlett
And I think there were a lot of fears around social safety and around graffiti and around crime. Are there you go.

01:08:30:22 - 01:08:32:02
Melissa Bruntlett
Filling styles.

01:08:32:04 - 01:08:34:10
Chris Bruntlett
And styles of.

01:08:34:12 - 01:08:36:09
John Simmerman
Thought. I thought I'd zoom in on that for.

01:08:36:09 - 01:08:39:17
Speaker 4
You know.

01:08:39:19 - 01:09:06:06
Chris Bruntlett
But through yeah, it really kind of life material's a beautiful piece of art in the center. That's actually a representation of a sundial because it's the last place that's actually going to get natural sunlight, but that shows the time of day and otherwise it's just kind of colored lights and and some plastic sheeting and but the community is really embraced it in what is the rainiest city in Europe.

01:09:06:06 - 01:09:36:17
Chris Bruntlett
It's become an activity asset, as you would say, John, for joggers, for rollers, for cyclists to even do multiple laps back and forth in this tunnel. And form the spine of this eight kilometer long greenway that's connected to the tramway that will be the site of future development around housing office space, park space. It's this green spine that the city of Bergen will be expanding and growing around.

01:09:36:24 - 01:09:45:08
Chris Bruntlett
It's quite, quite interesting to see that level of foresight and planning around something that's not a motorway.

01:09:45:10 - 01:09:49:19
John Simmerman
Yeah, how cool.

01:09:49:22 - 01:10:13:27
Melissa Bruntlett
Going back to that, that comment I made about being underground, I really appreciated the plastic sheeting and not seeing the mountain above me. But then I use of color in that mountain tunnel. Yeah. Was Yeah, it was. It's nice because you have that like colorful aspect but it also cleverly is set up to indicate how far along you are, so to know how far you are in, but how much is left.

01:10:13:29 - 01:10:31:10
Melissa Bruntlett
So if you're concerned about getting out fast, you know where to go. And that actually serves as part of their evacuation strategy. It's not just for people like me that don't want to spend too much time under a mountain, but more to understand. If you travel this way, the exit is close versus traveling to the middle.

01:10:31:12 - 01:10:36:04
John Simmerman
So I take it, Melissa, you're not going to be doing any cave diving anytime soon?

01:10:36:07 - 01:10:38:23
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, probably not. Is super interesting to me.

01:10:38:25 - 01:10:43:16
Speaker 4
Hopefully not.

01:10:43:18 - 01:11:00:17
Chris Bruntlett
And I mean, the I think the nice thing about this project is despite the fact that the kids think that every bike ride we take is a stupid bike ride, they were actually quite impressed and really quite enjoyed this experience. It was something that they were talking about long after we got back to the network.

01:11:00:24 - 01:11:06:24
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, and now we've got a little timelapse of the experience.

01:11:06:27 - 01:11:07:20
Speaker 4
You know, it's.

01:11:07:21 - 01:11:38:29
John Simmerman
It's really interesting. I mean, you've you've got two adults there that are making their way into, you know, adulthood. They're starting to, you know, understand what they really like and all this stuff. And they've been like sponges absorbing, you know, all of this. And I can remember when I when I filmed you as a family unit walking to school back in 2016, you remember that?

01:11:39:01 - 01:11:40:04
Melissa Bruntlett
I think so, yeah.

01:11:40:06 - 01:11:41:05
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:41:07 - 01:12:06:24
John Simmerman
And so it's been kind of neat, you know, vicariously over over these a67 years watching the kids grow up and, you know, completely moving to a different location. And they're just so delightful. By the way. You're, you're children are absolutely a delight to be around. And we had dinner together in November and and that was super, super cool.

01:12:06:27 - 01:12:38:22
John Simmerman
And It's so wonderful to to experience this vacation with you, your family vacation and and all these sights and sounds and, you know, the whole thing. It just it warms my heart that you all are, you know, where you are in life and where you are in this journey that you have with your young family and in being able to experience, you know, this I mean, nothing against, you know, visit, coming back and visiting family North America.

01:12:38:24 - 01:13:10:02
John Simmerman
But give me a break. I mean, that was freaking awesome. And it's freaking awesome that you were willing to share your vacation. And with me today, again, I'm very selfish in the sense that I'm kind of living vicariously through you. I had hoped to make it to many of the cities that you had the opportunity to visit. I may have to call upon you, Melissa, and some of your planning and say, Hey, it looks like I am going to get up there and in that part of the world to visit.

01:13:10:05 - 01:13:23:15
John Simmerman
Any any final thoughts in reflections from both of you about this experience and and what's what's up next? You know, for next summer, are we already planning our trips?

01:13:23:17 - 01:13:52:27
Melissa Bruntlett
Not yet. For next year. We have a couple of things in the works, but yeah, nothing, nothing for me except definitely a trip back to Canada. You know, Now it'll have been two years again, so we'll have to go next summer and see some family. But I think yeah, for like I said at the beginning of the, of this, you know, we're recognizing that our kids are getting older and the family trips that we'll be able to do all together is getting, you know, the excuse to make them come with us is getting smaller and smaller.

01:13:52:29 - 01:14:18:18
Melissa Bruntlett
I think for me, I think this trip achieved what I wanted it to, is it was a chance to, you know, do the urban stuff that we really like to do, but like balance it with things that kids really wanted to do. I think we all learned that we all love Norway and so we will be going back again, I think probably because, you know, we miss the Pacific Northwest every once in a while and it's the closest thing without spending thousands of dollars.

01:14:18:19 - 01:14:39:09
Melissa Bruntlett
But, you know, to experience it ourselves again that we can do, although Norway is not cheap for those that, you know, maybe listening as they wait, Norway's really expensive. Yes, you're absolutely right. It is. But yeah, I think it was the perfect summer holiday for us, perfect balance. And yeah, I don't think I'd change a thing.

01:14:39:11 - 01:15:13:02
Chris Bruntlett
Oh, no, no. I think and this is a yeah, I mean, we don't take a moment of this for granted. We still kind of wake up every morning and pinch ourselves. So we get to work the jobs that we got to do and to live the lives that we got to do and the social media presence feels almost like a responsibility to kind of share the positivity, but also, well, a lot of this didn't happen without the support of those that community.

01:15:13:05 - 01:15:46:25
Chris Bruntlett
We are reflecting on this today with the Gordon as you you know from the War on Cars podcast and it really does take a village for all the successes you know yourself self making the introduction to Heather Boyer at Island Press Doug allowing us sleep on in this apartment where we were on our book tour. These are all little things that we pay forward and, and through acts of kindness, create opportunities to and create a little urbanism community that we're really proud to call ourselves members of.

01:15:46:25 - 01:15:49:11
Speaker 4
So, yeah.

01:15:49:14 - 01:15:50:28
Chris Bruntlett
That made no sense whatsoever.

01:15:50:28 - 01:15:54:07
Speaker 4
But I think.

01:15:54:10 - 01:16:33:19
John Simmerman
It makes sense to me. I mean, yeah, it was through social media that I originally made contact with you. So when I learned about your crowd fundraising efforts to help with their original trip to the Netherlands. And so, yeah, I mean, it's easy to, to dunk on social media and we do have to make sure that we are, especially for me, as you well know, because you can experience some of this yourself, is that as a content creator too, I kind of have to make sure that I'm not always, always on and feeling like I have to document every single step, you know, that I take to the grocery store and everything.

01:16:33:21 - 01:16:54:06
John Simmerman
But selfishly, I'm incredibly grateful that you all have taken us along. The ride on your vacations and in social media and and once again doing so here on the Active Towns channel. Chris and Melissa, thank you so very much for doing this. It's been an absolute joy and pleasure.

01:16:54:09 - 01:17:14:23
Melissa Bruntlett
Yeah, no, it's our it's our absolute pleasure. And like you said, done. Sometimes it can feel like we're starting to turn off. But I think one of the things that brings us joy when we're traveling, when we're not turning off, is that we're showing places around the world that are doing great things. And, you know, I think that's the reason that we got into this, was to show Vancouver was doing a lot of the great things it was doing.

01:17:14:23 - 01:17:22:18
Melissa Bruntlett
And now to get to do that globally is for us a privilege that we don't take for granted. We're happy to be.

01:17:22:20 - 01:17:47:24
Chris Bruntlett
Know City has the secret sauce most that he has the silver bullet. Everyone is dealing with its own unique challenges and and but there's so much inspiration we can take and we channel it and share it. Yeah, it allows us to keep going and it energizes us. But we plenty more trips in the future that we hope people will.

01:17:47:26 - 01:17:51:00
Melissa Bruntlett
Watch this space for Melissa's urban travel booking.

01:17:51:02 - 01:17:56:18
Speaker 4
That's right. That's right. I love it.

01:17:56:18 - 01:18:22:16
John Simmerman
I love it. And and to your point, Chris, I think we all have job security in terms of there's plenty yet to do and doing what I'm doing here on the active sales channel, which is to try to celebrate the good things that are happening. And hopefully that is inspiration for other cities that if you're struggling with this, please know that there are resources out there that you know you can turn to.

01:18:22:16 - 01:18:47:22
John Simmerman
And you had mentioned Jason Slaughter's channel just Bikes. You mentioned Gordon with the War on Cars podcast. These are all great resources that you can tap into as well as the Dutch Cycling Embassy and wonderful firms like Moby Con that is out there. So and don't forget, folks, if you haven't yet already done so, please be sure to check out these books.

01:18:47:24 - 01:18:59:25
John Simmerman
They are absolutely phenomenal. I cannot recommend them enough. Absolutely. Connecting with you both. Once again, thank you so very much.

01:18:59:28 - 01:19:01:20
Chris Bruntlett
Thank you for the next time.

01:19:01:22 - 01:19:16:01
John Simmerman
We thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this little show and tell from Melissa and Chris Bramlett. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you. Subscribe to the Active Tales Channel.

01:19:16:01 - 01:19:32:27
John Simmerman
Just click on that subscription button down below and ring the notifications. Bell Thank you all so much for tuning in. It's really wonderful to have you along for the ride. Well Until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers. And again sending a huge thank you to all my active towns.

01:19:32:27 - 01:19:48:17
John Simmerman
Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patron buy me a coffee YouTube super Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the active towns store, every little bit adds up and it's been much appreciated. Thank you all so much.