Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:17:26
Mike Pasternock
Man. I do think to just moving forward in the YouTube space, there is so much excitement around this style as well. Yes, someone like Flair designs his video called The Disney-Ification of American Cities, I believe it's called is right, approaching 500,000 views. Yeah. I mean, like amazing.

00:00:17:27 - 00:00:41:27
John Simmerman
Hey everyone welcome to the Active Towns channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Michael Pasternock video producer for the Strong Towns organization. Mike, can I talk a little bit about his journey to video production as well as the Strong Towns movement? It is a good one, so let's get right to it with Mike.

00:00:42:00 - 00:00:46:06
John Simmerman
Michael Pasternack, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:00:46:08 - 00:00:47:29
Mike Pasternock
Hey, happy to be here.

00:00:48:01 - 00:00:55:19
John Simmerman
Hey, Mike. I love giving my guests an opportunity just to introduce themselves. So who is Mike?

00:00:55:22 - 00:01:26:13
Mike Pasternock
That's I feel like that's a good question. I am just like a midwestern. I love living in the Midwest. I grew up here. I grew up outside of Chicago, found my way back after going to school at the University of Missouri. I was a high school teacher for three years. During that time, I filmed weddings and my wife and a girlfriend at the time were like, you know, exploring this idea of filming weddings as as a job, as a business.

00:01:26:13 - 00:01:52:01
Mike Pasternock
And so when over the summers, I was making more doing that than I was teaching. We decided to just send it and so in our first couple of years of marriage, that was it. We were wedding filmmakers and we decided to move to Phenix, Arizona, to film weddings year round. And in that time I found City Nerd. I found not just bikes, and I got really into this idea of living in a place that felt more human.

00:01:52:01 - 00:02:31:22
Mike Pasternock
That was a lifestyle that encouraged community, that encouraged, you know, getting outside of the boxes that we we isolate ourselves in. And so we ended up coming back to Chicago because it felt like a good fit for us being close to family. And at the same time, there was a job opportunity for strong Towns to be the YouTube or to run the YouTube channel and my experience wedding filmmaking as well as a really weird but fun stint in Arizona when I worked for a couple prankster YouTubers for for like four or five months.

00:02:31:24 - 00:02:56:28
Mike Pasternock
That gave me the the weird, like niche experience that I was like, Let's give it a go. And so when I applied for the Strong Towns job, I made a video because I love our hiring process. It's all about skills. And they had us make videos and I made a video that I wanted to make just something I thought was cool and interesting, and it was exactly what they were looking for.

00:02:56:28 - 00:03:05:24
Mike Pasternock
So that's how I found my way to strong towns, not just like making videos, but also the mindset and ideas that strong Towns is all about.

00:03:05:24 - 00:03:31:13
John Simmerman
So I love it. I love it. And I went ahead and brought up the graphic here on screen of the landing page of the YouTube channel. And I had to smile too, because I love the little landing page photo with the editor for it. They're leading the the looks like he's got little ducklings following him there. It's fantastic.

00:03:31:15 - 00:03:33:21
Mike Pasternock
Well, that's fantastic and fascinating.

00:03:33:21 - 00:03:59:20
John Simmerman
So going back to that YouTube channel or channels that you were helping, it's funny that the way you phrased it, you know, it's so what sort of platform or what sort of genre was that in that, you know, kind of gave you the, you know, the experience in what becomes viral and what becomes successful out on YouTube?

00:03:59:22 - 00:04:37:00
Mike Pasternock
Yeah, to be honest, prior to working with Big Does TV and Steven SHAPIRO, both pranksters who live out in Phenix, Arizona, which is a really funny spot because that's also where that was epic is one. And like those are the three biggest people I think in, in like pranking and like before working for them. I had no idea I had ideas just how any of us do from the outside of what makes something like worth watching, what gets people's attention.

00:04:37:03 - 00:05:03:09
Mike Pasternock
But when I applied for that job, I was just a little burnt out from weddings looking for something interesting and different. And I'd been watching their prank videos since, like, you know, 2013 when I was in high school and I hadn't kept up much with their stuff. But I always thought Big does is a cool guy. So yeah, getting that job was, was a really cool, strange fever dream because the team was amazing.

00:05:03:11 - 00:05:29:24
Mike Pasternock
The people I was working with were so talented in this really specific niche of just getting eyes on stuff, getting clicks. The business model behind it was sustainable and it was cool. Seeing how Dawson and Steven built a life for themselves, doing what they loved, which is just like having fun interactions, messing with people and the way they really pushed the envelope.

00:05:29:27 - 00:05:56:19
Mike Pasternock
They don't get a lot of respect in the YouTube world, you know, you see people like Colin and Samir, who are YouTube journalists. If you if for those who don't know who they are and they found their own little niche of explaining YouTube to people on YouTube and talking about not just the current events but the strategies involved, and there's channels like Think Media, people who like show you how to do YouTube.

00:05:56:19 - 00:06:18:27
Mike Pasternock
But that's not what Colin and Samir do. They talk about like the the new wave of creators, they really get into this sort of subculture as opposed to just like how do you go viral? And I haven't seen a lot of prankster stuff on there. And that was a huge part of YouTube in like 2012 to 2015 that that like was YouTube.

00:06:18:29 - 00:06:42:29
Mike Pasternock
So aside from that, I really enjoyed working for them because getting to see like under the hood of what makes a video succeed, seeing the strategies of trying different thumbnails, very particular titles, the way that they did shorts and their really efficient method of taking these longer clips and like I could edit three or four videos in a day.

00:06:42:29 - 00:06:43:16
Mike Pasternock
It was.

00:06:43:23 - 00:06:44:16
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:06:44:19 - 00:07:22:01
Mike Pasternock
It was a system and it was really cool. I will say like I was kind of like a a fish out of water in, in that like arena I guess of, of content. So I don't think I was maybe the best like personality fit when it comes to like pranking and all of that. But really I just loved getting to see the talent and strategy of like those really creative people and just the team behind them, like Grayson Goba, he's awesome.

00:07:22:04 - 00:07:49:05
Mike Pasternock
Morningstar Cockapoo Poo and, and Ari Labadie just really, really talented guys all running that that team. And so they all taught me the language of YouTube, which was, which was really fun. And I got to go on some really like, crazy trips and see some of the funniest interactions I've seen in my life. And that really prepared me to be able to like, talk on camera in a way that I'm used to presenting.

00:07:49:05 - 00:08:09:28
Mike Pasternock
I was a teacher, I know how to package and present ideas, but at the same time it does feel weird walking around in public like you'll see in a few of my videos, like I go and I put a camera somewhere and I step back and I talk to it. And that was an uncomfortable thing, like vlogging is not something that I, I ever would have thought of doing before.

00:08:10:02 - 00:08:40:20
Mike Pasternock
Some I feel like I'm like hyper social aware sometimes, but working with those guys and just their complete, just like goofiness and ability to just be like, like crazy in public, like, actually helped me get to that stage of being like, nobody cares. Yeah, yeah. So that was a really fun and interesting stint and I truly nothing but, like, respect and, and they honestly, they deserve more respect.

00:08:40:23 - 00:08:45:06
Mike Pasternock
But it was just, it was a really fun time. And I really like those guys.

00:08:45:09 - 00:09:11:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. Now you mentioned or good friends, you know Ray with the city nerd here's his his YouTube landing page and he was recently here on on the podcast as well And Ray of course served set was sitting right next to me served on a panel that you moderated with the Strong Tables national gathering last year in Charlotte, North Carolina.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:35:16
John Simmerman
Thank you very much for doing that. And it was an honor to be sitting next to Ray. And in giving that getting that opportunity, I, too, had been following his work for for many, many years. And so it was a delight to be able to, you know, spend a little bit of time sitting right next to him and learning a little bit about his process and his background and then having him on the podcast gave me, you know, even more.

00:09:35:16 - 00:10:04:01
John Simmerman
So, you know, it's one of the things I love doing on these conversations is giving some of these creators an opportunity to share a little bit about themselves and a little about their history. So I really appreciate you doing this and I appreciate, too, the fact that your story, your, you know, really the origin story of how you came to doing this, it's funny that it includes both Ray and Jason.

00:10:04:04 - 00:10:33:29
John Simmerman
And of course, what's really, really cool about Jason's story, you know what? Not just by X is then you know how that maturation took place after he and his wife and kids moved to the Netherlands and moved to Amsterdam. And then he too, sort of found strong towns and started producing an entire series about strong towns. And now this drones video is sitting right at the top at 6.9 million views.

00:10:33:29 - 00:10:55:29
John Simmerman
Frasier is going to talk a little bit about that because, I mean, you were a teacher and then you were wearing, you know, a, you know, video producer and then doing stuff, you know, helping produce stuff on YouTube. But then you drunk you drank some of the Kool-Aid of urban. I talk a lot about that that.

00:10:56:02 - 00:11:31:23
Mike Pasternock
Yeah, I think exact timeline of all of this was on the plane to Phenix on the way back from one of the weddings we were filming because a lot of our clientele was still in Missouri. I was reading Strong Towns and as we flew into the city and I like looked over like Phenix is a great place. But as I looked over, just like there's an iconic picture of From the Reservation and the line between that and Scottsdale and just like sprawl, right?

00:11:31:23 - 00:11:52:02
Mike Pasternock
And as as we flew in, I was like reading Strong Towns and it just clicked and I was like, so for context, we had two cars at the time that we had tried to do one car and we ended up getting like a minivan that we could go camping in because Phenix is like the trailhead of the West.

00:11:52:03 - 00:12:20:19
Mike Pasternock
It's just a great spot to launch into different places for Outdoor Adventures, which is why we moved there for Sunshine and for clients year round. But also we thought that was a good lifestyle fit. That car broke down and having to live with one car in a place that makes it extremely inhospitable to do so. Combined with reading Strong towns, finding Jason is videos, and Jason's videos are the ones that convinced me.

00:12:20:24 - 00:12:37:18
Mike Pasternock
I think. First to read the book though, the YouTube algorithm just kind of throw stuff at you. So I don't have an exact timeline. It just it started like drip feeding me like city beautiful. And then I watched, you know, a couple of those and I was like, I don't I'm not an expert enough to learn about this.

00:12:37:18 - 00:13:11:06
Mike Pasternock
And then there was one about like a Jason just has such a good job of really getting to the heart of why we are discontent, discontented, why we're discontented with our environment. And his stuff is absolutely crucial to the work we do. Because unless people see why things are wrong, like unless, you know, we we like remove like our blinders, it's we can just keep going and pretend that all of this stuff is normal.

00:13:11:09 - 00:13:40:22
Mike Pasternock
But it's not. And I mean, like you have the the map of Phenix up there. The thing that was weird to me about Phenix was growing up in like Chicago land, like west Chicago suburbs. They all have a different feeling. You can go to an Elmhurst where I grew up and it feels different then going to Lake Alliance, and it feels different than the northwest suburbs like Barrington.

00:13:40:22 - 00:14:07:11
Mike Pasternock
It feels different than the southwest suburbs and the south suburbs. You get close to Oak Park and it feels way different than going out to Batavia, and they all have this unique personality. But in Phenix there was a kind of like sameness to a lot of it. And if you want what it offers, Phenix is amazing. But the thing that is was hard for me is like a surprise.

00:14:07:11 - 00:14:41:12
Mike Pasternock
Feels the same as like a Queen Creek. Yeah, and a like Gilbert has its own vibe, but we got priced the heck out of there. Like homes were going for like 650 and That's right. You know, it's an expensive place to live. Yeah. And I don't know, there was a not having the seasons was a big one for us where this sameness combined with I mean, the weather was fantastic, but there was a kind of like weird feeling that it, it felt I don't know how to describe it.

00:14:41:12 - 00:15:10:18
Mike Pasternock
It just felt the same. And what you actually what was crazy is right before we decided to, like, move back to to Chicago or my had not lived in Chicago but moved back to Chicago. We were living in like just north of Tempe Town. Lake If you want to zoom in near like Tempe Town Lake, we were living right by there and we would go to just north of there, there's the Scottsdale Greenbelt.

00:15:10:21 - 00:15:30:13
Mike Pasternock
We go on a walk every day and we had to drive to go for a walk. It was weird. And then there was this cool concept called cul de sac that was popping up. And I love your new videos. Thank you. There was a cool concept called Cul de sac popping up. If we were going to stay in Phenix.

00:15:30:16 - 00:15:51:27
Mike Pasternock
There is so much cool stuff happening in Mesa and Tempe and I don't want to turn this into the classic. Just like let's talk about specific locations because a lot of people can't relate. Most people can't relate. But if you're looking at this map, there's just so much potential in this little corridor between Mesa and Tempe and Mesa, if you're not familiar with Arizona, it gets a bad rap.

00:15:51:27 - 00:16:04:08
Mike Pasternock
A lot of people associate it with not being like the nicest place, but it's like such a sleeper suburb. Like no one is. No one is prepared for the like, Rise of Mesa that's about to happen.

00:16:04:10 - 00:16:19:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. So yeah, so we were talking about a cul de sac and I pulled up their website here. And so you had mentioned before we hit resume that you guys were thinking about maybe cul de sac, maybe moving there, but the timing was right.

00:16:19:23 - 00:16:42:19
Mike Pasternock
It's funny because people from the outside look at the price of cul de sac, which at the time it was like 1400 for like a one bedroom. I think it's a little more now that's not crazy for Scottsdale. That's actually very cheap for Tempe and Scottsdale. And the fact that there was this opportunity to live a like the bummer was there, you kind of have to be car free.

00:16:42:20 - 00:17:00:16
Mike Pasternock
I don't know if they still have like a covenant thing they have to sign that's like, I don't do have a car. And I'm going to argue that was the major thing that we couldn't do because we could do car light. We we can do like using our car occasionally, but we were not in a position to, especially with our business at the time, sell our car.

00:17:00:18 - 00:17:20:00
Mike Pasternock
So we now live a very car light lifestyle until it gets I mean in the summertime we barely use the car. It's, you know, it was zero degrees last week, so we took it a couple of times and we would have walked by it. But aside from that, it's like, definitely that was the one thing that that kept us.

00:17:20:03 - 00:17:46:18
Mike Pasternock
But it's really cool and I really want to check it out. And I love your videos because there was a point where at the end Ryan said, It's Ryan. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Ryan said, You know, we're not the ones that are bringing this lifestyle, this walkability, to places. The the model doesn't work that way. The way it works is like you lay the groundwork and you get the stuff moving.

00:17:46:18 - 00:18:05:06
Mike Pasternock
And if there's a culture there where we're ready to then come in and like, help be part of this, that's the goal. The goal is not like we are going to be the ones who are going to make this place. Well, they chose Tempe because it's a college campus or there's a college campus nearby. It's right on the Phenix Metro.

00:18:05:08 - 00:18:25:16
Mike Pasternock
It is the perfect spot. And there's plenty of places that if they just had the right with the right environment where that kind of development might work super well. So anyway, it was the Phenix was it was a fun little journey. But we we love Chicago. I love being back back home. So. Yeah.

00:18:25:18 - 00:18:36:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, that's it's a fascinating story and fascinating that you should mention Elmhurst. When I lived in the Chicagoland area, I lived in Elmhurst.

00:18:36:18 - 00:18:37:11
Mike Pasternock
Dude, no way.

00:18:37:14 - 00:18:45:27
John Simmerman
Six months. And I think earlier I mentioned Clinton Avenue. And now that I think of it, I think it was Clinton Avenue in Elmhurst where I was while.

00:18:46:00 - 00:18:49:15
Mike Pasternock
So it was great because it's a movie town.

00:18:49:17 - 00:19:09:17
John Simmerman
I was just to say, and it's funny that used to say it's a movie town. It was actually because I had moved there from Orange County, California. So I was, you know, sort of I was in the area area. My office was down in Anaheim, right near where Disneyland is. And so when I made that move to Elmhurst.

00:19:09:19 - 00:19:10:23
Mike Pasternock
I was just like, wow.

00:19:10:23 - 00:19:35:02
John Simmerman
This is so cool. I could walk, you know, a few blocks into the cute little downtown area. So it was one of my my first taste as a young professional. At the time I was working, I was the wellness program coordinator for Motorola out in Schaumburg at the World headquarters campuses. And so I was making that commute from Elmhurst down to Schaumburg.

00:19:35:03 - 00:20:13:04
John Simmerman
And then and then when I moved to the lakefront, then I was doing the reverse commute from the lakefront out to Charlotte. Have a go and talk a little bit about that in a moment, because the urbanism, you know, aspect of from Elmhurst out to Chicago is a bit different. The Elmhurst experience for me was was a little familiar because it was like what it was like, you know, kind of growing up in Lincoln, California, where you had this sort of town feel, small community feel, and you could walk a few blocks to school or you could get to the prairie path and go for a run.

00:20:13:06 - 00:20:44:06
John Simmerman
You know, it was just, yeah, you're a beloved activity asset for sure. You know, of that area. But yeah, that's fascinating too, for me as a young professional, as a young adult, it gave me that opportunity to be reminded what that sort of smaller city, small town kind of urbanism was like. And that concept of what we would drive to get to the fitness center or the rec center or to downtown, I mean, we just walk a few blocks.

00:20:44:08 - 00:21:06:27
Mike Pasternock
Yeah, I like the option. Just it's, it's a grid. And what's interesting about a lot of the Chicago suburbs is they are essentially they have a train station in the middle of town and a lot of people use that train to commute in in to work. But also like as a high school kid, I could go to like Lollapalooza by taking the train.

00:21:06:29 - 00:21:28:00
Mike Pasternock
You know, you can get to a Cubs game by taking the train. If we I mean, the culture and that the cultural amenities of Chicago are amazing and it's great to have access to that. But even within Elmhurst, I walked to every single school I went to. I walked to elementary school, middle school and high school, and my family moved throughout town a few times.

00:21:28:03 - 00:21:57:00
Mike Pasternock
The bummer with Elmhurst is it's losing the sort of accessibility that used to be there of being able to get the two bedroom cottage, as does it like the starter home. Those don't really exist in Elmhurst as much anymore. Those are seen as tear downs and it's becoming a much wealthier suburb. But it was the tight grid and the ability as a kid to just get to all my friends houses easily, all the parks and amenities, it was just, I want to do a video about Elmhurst and I want them to enter into the Strong Towns competition.

00:21:57:02 - 00:22:27:09
Mike Pasternock
But I don't live there, so I can't be like the advocate for it. But truly, there's so much good like there's there there's so many places that have a fantastic foundation here. And what's interesting, I this I'm going to sort of pull a 180 here, but this reminds me of in a lot of places, the concept of there's a joke, I don't know where it's from, but whenever you go to a new place, it's like, should I move here?

00:22:27:11 - 00:22:50:28
Mike Pasternock
Right? And in traveling to many of the places because I saw the speaking, the strongest town contest in the many places that I visited. It's interesting that having that sort of gut check of like, what is this place like what I want to live here. And it's it's funny because my wife always, like, gets frustrated when I come back from a place and I'm like, we should move here.

00:22:51:00 - 00:23:15:16
Mike Pasternock
And this sort of the recent video that I made is a kind of it's a kind of a letter to myself as much as it's a it's a a video for other people that, like moving somewhere else is certainly an option. Like that is something that we did. We moved to Chicago and we're going to move again at some point, likely going to be in Chicago land.

00:23:15:18 - 00:23:54:09
Mike Pasternock
But it's there's this mindset that because, you know, you watch one of Jason's videos and you feel this discontent and you feel frustrated about this environment, that moving will fix that. And speaking of Phenix, like we have friends who are very into strong towns, urbanism, all that, and they moved to Mesa for that reason. They said, like, we like this area and we think that our best bet for urbanism in the future and affordability is going to be living near downtown Mesa or living near Tempe and fighting for the kind of development that we want in our place.

00:23:54:11 - 00:24:20:08
Mike Pasternock
So for me, like this video was, it's the first video I ever made for Strong Towns was Yeah, it was fine. It was a little bit preachy, but I think this is a combination of me finding my tone of like, I want to highlight the stories of people who are who know they're not going to move and who are fighting for the places they live.

00:24:20:15 - 00:24:53:18
Mike Pasternock
Like what I love to live in Amsterdam. Absolutely. But I'm monolingual. I am not in a career that is like in high demand. And I love I love my family and I love the Midwest. And there are things that I would love to change. So I'm going to change. I'm going to fight to change them. Right. And I think there is a lot of hopelessness and a lot of people misplaced that hopelessness on someone like Jason.

00:24:53:21 - 00:25:16:07
Mike Pasternock
Right? They say like he is the reason why, like people are defeatist or like, feel this way. And it's like, no, it was always there. And we have always been prone to complain and sort of do something. But like Jason isn't complaining. He is advocating for the life changes that he made, right? And in the same way, like strong towns, it's hard.

00:25:16:07 - 00:25:39:17
Mike Pasternock
It's hard to like fight for change. It's hard to show up to the meetings in the same way that John John from Chattanooga Urban Society shows up for Chattanooga like time and time again. But those are the people who make our places what we want them to be like. I don't know. I just that's the thing I love about what I get to do.

00:25:39:17 - 00:25:54:02
Mike Pasternock
And my favorite videos I've made are the ones where I get to speak to the people doing that. Like Fayetteville. The second video I ever made is probably my favorite one, and I honestly get emotional watching that video. Yeah.

00:25:54:04 - 00:25:54:23
John Simmerman
It's brilliant.

00:25:54:23 - 00:26:21:02
Mike Pasternock
Yeah, it's it was. Some of these videos are like love letters to these places. They are like being able to elevate these people who are like quietly making making their cities better for their kids. Like that is really inspiring to me because I do have the tendency, like many of us do, to like, have this escapist mentality. Yeah.

00:26:21:06 - 00:26:40:17
Mike Pasternock
And so there are so many comments on the Fix that are move video where people are like, Well, screw you, I move it anyway. And it's like, Great. Are you like, If you are, congrats. But if you're just saying, if you have it in your mind that you are going to move and you never do it like that is torture, you're torturing yourself.

00:26:40:17 - 00:26:41:11
John Simmerman
Right? Right.

00:26:41:11 - 00:27:11:23
Mike Pasternock
You know, like once the veil has been lifted and we've been say, like orange pilled. Yeah, like you're presented with a choice, like, are you going to do something about it or are you going to be like, miserable for a long time? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I would you you live in Austin, a city that has so much upside, but also that, like, is is tough.

00:27:11:25 - 00:27:35:08
Mike Pasternock
I'm sure living in knowing what you know with this design like how do you feel about I mean say the work you do and highlighting the the little victories say that keep us going when when we wish we could sometimes copy paste some of the good stuff here. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, we.

00:27:35:08 - 00:27:59:02
John Simmerman
We really intentionally made sure that when we made the move and we made the move from Hawaii, from from the big island of Hawaii, we we lived just outside a little village called Waimea, also known as Kamuela on the Big Island. So when we moved here, we made we were very intentional about making sure that we were in a neighborhood where we could reduce down to one car.

00:27:59:04 - 00:28:20:11
John Simmerman
And for the most part, we wouldn't even have to drive on a weekly basis, a daily basis. We could be able to get to meet our daily needs by walking and biking. And so that's what we done. We were obviously, admittedly coming from a certain sense of privilege to be able to do that because it doesn't come cheap to be able to do that.

00:28:20:13 - 00:28:55:10
John Simmerman
But we were very, very intentional about not wanting to live a car dependency lifestyle, which can be very easy to do when you move to a city that is 326 square miles. I mean, you know, it's just a massive, sprawling place. But at the same time where we're at, we've got good bones. We're very, very close to downtown and we're very, very close to a network of activity, assets, protected bike lanes and pathways and the ability and parks and pools.

00:28:55:10 - 00:29:32:13
John Simmerman
You know, we're very, very well situated. And I think that makes a huge difference in in you know, I'm looking at this one video that you have here. The small town is surprisingly urban and sometimes even big metropolitan metropolitan areas can be surprisingly walkable and bikeable in different portions of it, even though they have a sprawling metro. Like when you look at Chicago land, I mean, it's a massive, sprawling place with it's sprawling, you know, westward all the way to Elmhurst.

00:29:32:15 - 00:29:34:11
Mike Pasternock
You got here, Romeo girls, you know.

00:29:34:12 - 00:29:54:29
John Simmerman
Yeah, exactly. And and and, you know, and many people end up, you know, being pushed all the way out to like Naperville, you know, just like here, you know, people get pushed, you know, further and further out to be able to, quote unquote, drive to your qualify and, you know, catch you waiting that that challenge that we have.

00:29:55:01 - 00:30:10:18
John Simmerman
I want to talk a little bit about the success of the channel now. You've been with strong towns now for just over a year, correct? Yeah. Fantastic. Congratulations. And when I look at the most popular videos of all time, we still. man, I.

00:30:10:18 - 00:30:13:23
Mike Pasternock
Can't wait to be Chuck's first video from 13.

00:30:13:23 - 00:30:47:12
John Simmerman
Years ago. There's. And you're close. You're close. You know, at the end, of course, I'm continuing to push more people to that conversation because it keeps coming up in conversations. But yeah, that's a classic. And that only represents a small fraction of the total number of views of that particular video. But yeah, that's 13 years ago. The film that you have that's literally shot up, it's only been out for two months is this was a mistake.

00:30:47:14 - 00:30:48:06
Mike Pasternock
Talk a little.

00:30:48:06 - 00:31:18:09
John Simmerman
Bit about that because, you know, you must mean like, holy moly, this thing is taking off. It's caught fire. There's got to be a certain level of satisfaction. You know, when you're like, producing these things, it's you had just passed the one year anniversary when you put this this video out. And, you know, I'm also going to solo you out for a second because, yeah, right behind you there is that wonderful plaque representing Area 100,000 subscribers.

00:31:18:09 - 00:31:34:04
John Simmerman
You guys just passed the hundred thousand subscriber. Mark, talk a little bit about that. I mean, it had to be a little bit of a validation of that move that you made to be able to have this thing take off just after a year.

00:31:34:06 - 00:31:58:20
Mike Pasternock
When I first joined Strong Towns and we had our first retreat. So we're a completely remote organization, but we do have like two or three retreats here where we get to see each other. And Chuck and I were just chatting and he was like, What are your goals this year? And I was like, I want to hit 100,000 subs.

00:31:58:20 - 00:32:22:12
Mike Pasternock
Like, I want that plaque. I know we can do it. And it's a big goal and it's a risky goal, especially the sets. And it's that high. And like, I mean, you've been grinding for a long time and like, you know, it's not always easy success. So it was a bold statement to say, you know, I want to hit 100,000.

00:32:22:15 - 00:32:27:12
John Simmerman
Do you remember where you were, where you were at? We were right around 30.

00:32:27:14 - 00:32:51:18
Mike Pasternock
All right. Around 30. Okay. Yeah. So there was that's the thing is there was a an audience primed and ready to go. And I was like, if we just apply what I think is going to work, it is going to fail spectacularly or do very well. And at this point, especially in my career path, I had nothing to lose.

00:32:51:18 - 00:33:11:03
Mike Pasternock
You know, I was like, if there is one I had sworn off video, I was like actually looking for jobs outside of video before I took the job with strong towns because I was like, This has been fun and maybe I need to give up on this dream of using what I'm good at and love to do. Well, you mentioned it earlier.

00:33:11:03 - 00:33:19:27
John Simmerman
You felt like you were a little burned out on the wedding video production. So I suspect that that might have been some of it, right?

00:33:20:00 - 00:33:36:23
Mike Pasternock
It was. And I just I was like, this has been fun. But I don't know that this is the I don't know that there's a any kind of job that will fit what I there has to be a unicorn job. And so when the strong kinds one came up in that opportunity, I was like, Shoot, this is it.

00:33:36:26 - 00:34:05:03
Mike Pasternock
So that video and many of the videos that I have I have made have been tweaking that process of of making the kind of explainer inspired by a, say, Johnny Harris Clio Abrams Though recently my inspiration has been a little more toward shoot I'm I'm totally spacing answer in progress the Canadian YouTube channel. They have been really inspiring to me recently.

00:34:05:08 - 00:34:37:07
Mike Pasternock
They're humble and inquisitive. Tone is one that I really want to capture more. But anyway, just applying the structure of filming a kind of doc showing in a visually engaging way, having that process, one that film Booth talks about, of making a promise that you're going to answer something and then answering that promise over and over again, presenting questions and presenting an answer to that question and having that storyline like that approach has worked really well for us.

00:34:37:09 - 00:35:08:22
Mike Pasternock
But really the one that surprised me the most is the one you're talking about. I did not love this video, the one that you have on screen right now. I, I thought it was fine. And it really surprises me in the way that it always does. The ones that I put so much effort into, like the last one, not doing great, but the one that like we're looking at of this experiment like undid our cities, I think is the name right or no, this is a different one.

00:35:08:23 - 00:35:09:23
Mike Pasternock
What's the name of this one again.

00:35:09:23 - 00:35:14:08
John Simmerman
So this is this experiment undid our cities. Yeah. How to fix it? Yeah.

00:35:14:11 - 00:35:26:26
Mike Pasternock
It was cool because I got to highlight Chicago as well. Yeah, it's it's just wild the way that sometimes people resonate with ones that you like don't resonate as much with.

00:35:26:29 - 00:35:47:26
John Simmerman
I Think that's an important lesson for for us content creators too is that yeah, we have to be careful not to get too in love with and attached to that particular thing. It may be our personal favorites that, hey, this was fun to make, but we don't know what's going to really resonate and really tickle that algorithm just right.

00:35:47:29 - 00:36:29:26
Mike Pasternock
And process wise. This video started as something way different, and it's the last of a dying breed of the kind of videos where they're kind of impromptu. They're going to be a lot more structured moving forward, which I love to talk about our new structure. But this video was originally based on the idea of I think it's Stewart Brand and the Architect and like form following function, and I wanted to make a video about how Chicago's bones and the form of these buildings, specifically the duplex and the three flats are the two flat and three flat as well as the courtyard apartment.

00:36:29:29 - 00:36:52:16
Mike Pasternock
How these structures are what allowed Chicago, Chicago to become what it did because they fit the needs of certain people at a certain time. And there's an element of that in this video. But it started as a complete architectural video and turned into more of an incremental video, which I thought was really cool like that. I did not expect that to happen.

00:36:52:16 - 00:37:18:27
Mike Pasternock
But as the video started coming together and they started going down all these useless rabbit holes and I was deep into the Chicago building code like it, it ended up turning into something that was more about like the the way we build as opposed to the structure of the things we build. So really fun video and I'm really glad it did as well as it did.

00:37:18:29 - 00:37:57:13
Mike Pasternock
But the real surprising thing to me, not surprising, the real affirming thing was hitting 100,000 subscribers. It showed that this is not just a it's not just a like Chuck movement. It's not just a you know, a cult of personality. Strong towns like we there is depth to Chuck's ideas. There is real like substance there and people are hungry for success stories and they're hungry to be told that like to be pushed to do that next smallest thing.

00:37:57:16 - 00:38:09:12
Mike Pasternock
And I don't know, it's interesting like like we talked about my favorite videos are the ones where I get to lift people up and sometimes my least favorite ones are the ones that do well. The one that surprises me most if you scroll down a little bit.

00:38:09:15 - 00:38:09:23
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:38:09:27 - 00:38:19:18
Mike Pasternock
Is the this Ponzi scheme might end up click bait with the like the river.

00:38:19:18 - 00:38:23:11
John Simmerman
Of this one here on the finance or the other financial.

00:38:23:13 - 00:38:33:08
Mike Pasternock
Story when I like I, I do not like that one that much. And the fact that it did as well as it did like in a.

00:38:33:08 - 00:38:35:01
John Simmerman
300,000. Yeah.

00:38:35:03 - 00:39:00:26
Mike Pasternock
Like it's so funny to me, like of all the effort I there's so much more effort put into like the our parking lots ruining your city video and I think it's more compelling but our audience feels otherwise you know Yeah it's sometimes you got to you got to hit with the negativity but that video is so funny to me.

00:39:00:28 - 00:39:34:01
John Simmerman
I'm glad you mention that because it is one of the interesting things on social media in general is that Chuck and I have had this discussion before, too, is that if you put something there that has either snarkiness in it or some negativity to it, it just gets more clicks and gets more eyeballs. And and it's it's really unfortunate when, you know, you're trying to do what I'm doing with active towns, trying to actually profile positive stories that are having, you know, that are taking place.

00:39:34:04 - 00:39:41:22
John Simmerman
So yeah, maybe maybe financial disaster, you know, I'm that thumbnail, you know, and the Ponzi scheme.

00:39:41:24 - 00:39:43:02
Mike Pasternock
Yes. All of it.

00:39:43:05 - 00:39:44:29
John Simmerman
Boom, click baiting for sure.

00:39:45:01 - 00:40:20:00
Mike Pasternock
It is weird. Like to what point how much do you lean into the clickbait and how much do you not? And I think we found a balance feels fair and honest where I never want to lie in any of what we tell. And that's been a real tension I've had, especially moving with our future approach, is there's this sort of like feels like a rubber band on both ends where if I'm going to do any kind of scripted anything, it feels disingenuous to me to pretend that I just found this thing right.

00:40:20:07 - 00:40:50:15
Mike Pasternock
An answer in progress does this so well, because I know it's not all just impromptu, like, I found this thing and I happen to have a camera on me right as I find it. But they presented in a way that I think is is honest to their expertise because I am not an expert in urbanism. I have honed the ability to, I think, present ideas in a way that is engaging.

00:40:50:18 - 00:41:20:12
Mike Pasternock
But I think I often come across as a know it all or a as preachy in the way I present our message. And that's the thing that was so interesting about inheriting the Strong Towns Channel from where it was, is I didn't need to and our team is awesome at like affirming this, but like I didn't need to have the expertise as much as we have a whole like chest of gold for me to pull from.

00:41:20:18 - 00:41:53:24
Mike Pasternock
Just really great stuff, great experts, and I can highlight the people who have done all of this research and whose stuff I can lean on. But me not having the degree, not like I want to make sure I'm not presenting myself as the expert, as much as presenting myself as the discoverer of what the experts have found. And that's why my docs are my favorite ones, because they feel the most honest, because all my docs I do find stuff while I'm there that I did not predict.

00:41:53:27 - 00:42:18:03
Mike Pasternock
Like I found that like, for example, that the most beautiful one to me is that Arkansas film, the Fair, the one about parking lots, because Matthew Petty is awesome. He is so cool and meeting him and just feeling I felt his frustration. He's been doing this for what, like 20 years? He's been fighting for this for at least on city council, for at least ten.

00:42:18:05 - 00:42:39:24
Mike Pasternock
And I could feel when he was talking, I could hear his frustration and like it was the same frustration I had. So when I got to find that old clip of him talking about strong Towns ideas back in 2014 and then play the clip of him talking now and put them both together like that is something that like I know I found and that feels authentic and real and that I'm the emotional aspect.

00:42:39:27 - 00:42:58:06
Mike Pasternock
And the hard thing for me is finding that balance of how do I tell a story from the perspective, especially if I'm finding evidence that, like I like, I am not the one who found this, and I don't think I present myself as the one who did the research, but I think I present it as like, I knew this stuff.

00:42:58:08 - 00:43:17:14
Mike Pasternock
So I want to find a way to convey it as like I have. I have discovered this alongside with you. And anyway, I just it's, it's a hard balance to find. And something we're doing now is and it's funny, if you watch my videos, you can see our look develop a little bit like this is our old apartment.

00:43:17:21 - 00:43:18:19
Mike Pasternock
Like.

00:43:18:21 - 00:43:19:28
John Simmerman
Yeah, this is a year ago. Yeah.

00:43:19:29 - 00:43:49:14
Mike Pasternock
Dark background, faking the window light like all of it. But, you know, we're, we're discovering it as we go, but a process that we are discovering now is using script writing ahead of time and utilizing are really talented writers. We have amazing staff writers, strong towns. And so Sierra is an amazing writer of ours and has a real knack for doing research, but also has a real knack for like finding the right people to talk to.

00:43:49:16 - 00:44:17:21
Mike Pasternock
So Sierra is writing some scripts that we're exploring like this, this process of writing and doing the research like far in advance to be able to find and pick holes in it as opposed to me. I don't have a background in research, so I'm finding more easily accessible stuff like Sierra is able to find more of the deep cuts and able to find some of the, I think, more compelling evidence.

00:44:17:23 - 00:44:49:01
Mike Pasternock
So moving forward, yeah, I think you're exactly Sierra's awesome and that story producer line is one we're really excited about as we've struck restructure just a little bit as we've seen the momentum of video and its importance for our movement. Another thing I just love about our organization that we're able to really swiftly like adjust and make changes to to fit our goals and strategy.

00:44:49:04 - 00:45:09:07
Mike Pasternock
This isn't some like huge corporation that has a lot of like fat that can be trimmed and a lot of parts that aren't quite functioning. It's like we are a really swift movement and we are a really I mean, you've met a lot of the people who who are part of our organization at the National Gathering.

00:45:09:09 - 00:45:16:06
John Simmerman
Well, what's funny? What's funny, Mike, if I can jump in. What's funny is, yeah, I can't even keep up with you guys anymore.

00:45:16:14 - 00:45:17:27
Mike Pasternock
I know. It's crazy.

00:45:18:00 - 00:45:39:01
John Simmerman
You guys are hiring so much. Now. You had mentioned earlier, and I think it's worth really emphasizing is it's it's no longer just the Chuck show. You know, I remember the days when it was just the Chuck show. I, you know, paid him a visit in in 2013 in Brainerd to, you know, jump on his podcast and kick around Brainerd a little bit.

00:45:39:03 - 00:45:57:23
John Simmerman
And so I remember when it was literally just him and maybe one other person kind of helping there at the Brainerd office. To your point, it's it's a remote organization. And you guys have brought on an amazing mix of people. You got both answers.

00:45:57:26 - 00:46:18:01
Mike Pasternock
Like feel this. But as you scroll through and I'm looking at all of these faces of my coworkers, it's just like I am. I'm so inspired by the work we do. It is really like some of the most talented people I know. I'd say the most talented people I know are working at strong towns and it is like every single Tiffany, there's Tiffany.

00:46:18:01 - 00:46:18:27
John Simmerman
She was also not.

00:46:18:29 - 00:46:20:15
Mike Pasternock
Here, but she's.

00:46:20:17 - 00:46:26:20
John Simmerman
She's just up the road in in of in Waco from so yeah yeah but.

00:46:26:20 - 00:46:54:24
Mike Pasternock
Truly it's it is amazing that especially and speaking of like Chuck's mindset the thing that I have just really been inspired by and excited about is like Chuck's excitement at the way the movement is growing too. And our board, as But there is a real tangible excitement, but there's like we know what we're doing is, is going to change our places.

00:46:54:24 - 00:47:25:00
Mike Pasternock
We know that like, see the video I just put out, it's less than 30,000 views. I think at this point. And our worst performing one up next to essentially an ad that we put out for for our national gathering. But we collectively, through all of our posts promoting this, we've gotten like thousands of people reaching the page. We want them to hundreds joining or at least inquiring specifically about joining these local conversations.

00:47:25:02 - 00:47:53:11
Mike Pasternock
And as we've seen in all the videos that I've made, like where especially I go to places like South Bend, the one that's the can American cities save themselves? All it takes is one turning into two or three. Yeah. And then you get entire neighborhoods changing. And yes, it is not going to be the canals and bike like highways of or I guess bike infrastructure of the Netherlands.

00:47:53:13 - 00:48:19:06
Mike Pasternock
But at the same time, there is a unique flavor of American urbanism that is like blossoming right now that I, I can't like, wait for my kids to experience. Yeah. And I know that's and some people will be like, that's it. There's the rub. It's like I might not experience it. Yeah, but like, how cool is it that I get to be part of building something and I'm not?

00:48:19:06 - 00:48:45:28
Mike Pasternock
I'm not on a city council. I am not a city planner. I'm not making the decisions. But what I am creating I know is equipping a few people to have the conversations. Which conversations can then influence city council elections. It's it's possible and not easy. And like we're facing so many roadblocks in doing it. And that's it is discouraging.

00:48:46:00 - 00:49:16:07
Mike Pasternock
And I think that's important. And I want to engage with that. But it can't we can't stay there. You know, like your podcast is great. I get to see so many of the faces of people who are like doing this work. Like Andy. A recent one loved getting to meet Andy at the at the National Gathering. He's doing his own great work where he is and all these people in like sometimes that work is just listening and watching and learning.

00:49:16:15 - 00:49:28:08
Mike Pasternock
And then there does reach a point though, where that work becomes creating or that work becomes having the conversations or, you know, wrestling with convictions a bit, you know. Yeah.

00:49:28:10 - 00:49:50:09
John Simmerman
Well, what's interesting too, you brought up Andy, Andy Beno, and he was one of my last livestreams of 2023. And of course he, he kind of made a bit of a major shift. You know, he was a content creator for the better part of the last decade. Most of the time that I've known Andy, he's been blogging and putting stuff out and being a social media influencer.

00:49:50:12 - 00:50:18:21
John Simmerman
And now he's pulled the trigger. Now he's gone to work for the city that he lives in. And so that's one of the things that I think is really important and you just alluded to it, is that you're not necessarily the one who's running for city council in rolling up your sleeves and going to work in city government, but you're producing content that is inspiring people to, you know, to roll up their sleeves and get engaged at the community level in in really do the hard work.

00:50:18:21 - 00:50:36:21
John Simmerman
And that's what I try to emphasize, is I get it. I know that I'm not doing the hard work of the advocates and the city staff members in the in the politicians and the city leaders that are or, you know, rolling up their sleeves and getting down and doing these things.

00:50:36:24 - 00:50:37:19
Mike Pasternock
But in the same.

00:50:37:19 - 00:50:40:00
John Simmerman
Way in creating inspiration. Yes.

00:50:40:03 - 00:51:07:16
Mike Pasternock
Yeah. And and I mean, you you have a content stream that is insane. Like you have a kind of stuff going on all the time is wild. And I mean, like different approaches reach different people. So like our videos coming out often is more reminiscent of like you take Lee's approach of higher, say, higher production quality and hoping to hit like, I guess more virality, right?

00:51:07:18 - 00:51:16:14
Mike Pasternock
As opposed to, say, the building a community and like like each of your what are you at now like seven like 7000 subs for hire.

00:51:16:14 - 00:51:19:09
John Simmerman
Yes we're just over 8000 now.

00:51:19:10 - 00:51:45:05
Mike Pasternock
Yeah, 8000. So each of your 8000 subs was a result of that work. And your community is much more like, like tight knit, I would say. I mean, we have, like, you know, much larger like REACH as an organization with all of our blogs and our own blogs are all of our articles starting as a blog, articles are podcasts, national gathering, all of that.

00:51:45:08 - 00:52:09:00
Mike Pasternock
But of that 8000, you have a like dedicate it, 8000, You know what I'm saying? Like your comment sections are much better than our comment sections, which are full of mostly people who find our videos because YouTube knows they're going to hate it, you know? yeah, there there is the work you're doing is, is equipping people to know that they're not alone in this.

00:52:09:02 - 00:52:36:08
Mike Pasternock
And as well your niche specifically of like activity and like fitness as a part of our built lends itself really well to this emerging awareness of blue zones. Right. So who knows? You know, maybe it maybe it never pops off to the point that, you know, it's uber viral, but we don't get to see the kind of work that we do.

00:52:36:08 - 00:53:10:15
Mike Pasternock
Like when I was teaching and I could, you know, see a student from their freshman year to their senior year, like, truly become like the student and learner that I always they could be. And some of the kids that like I coached reaching a point where like they are thriving and excelling like yeah like there's not the personal relationship as much because it is a parasocial relationship through the screen, but it, it is like a very real effect that we get to like nurture.

00:53:10:15 - 00:53:28:21
Mike Pasternock
And you do a really good job at not just doing the and our approaches are different. Like, like it came across during our, our panel. You do a very good job of nurturing the relationship more so than I'd say like I do. I don't have I take more of Jason's approach. I am kind of cynical toward a lot of the comments.

00:53:28:24 - 00:53:47:10
Mike Pasternock
Right. But you have a very like you you have much more of like the passion for and interest in what is being said. Like you see the value in that in a way that I think your audience really respects and appreciates. You know? Yeah.

00:53:47:12 - 00:54:07:03
John Simmerman
Well, and to be quite honest, I don't know that if I were to grow to the size of, say, in a Raise channel with City Nerd or Jason's channel with not just bikes, there'd be no way that I think I could really keep up. It would be a full time job, just kind of keeping up on every single comment because right now, well I'm smaller.

00:54:07:03 - 00:54:21:18
John Simmerman
I am, you know, definitely using, you know, the approach that Ryan Van Duzer uses, who's good friend of mine out of Boulder, and he tries to answer every single comment in in in, you know, thank every single person that's taken the time to watch And that's.

00:54:21:18 - 00:54:35:13
Mike Pasternock
Do you build that dedicated smaller core which carries you. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, the way the algorithm works right now is it sends your stuff out to that dedicated core, right to see how they react to it, to then send it out elsewhere.

00:54:35:15 - 00:54:59:26
John Simmerman
Yeah. Now I pull I've pulled up the, the most popular again so that we can kind of see the top six in terms of the number of views. Now earlier you you alluded to the fact that things are changing the way that you go about this, in the way that you are going to be producing the videos is going to be a little bit different and in you're kind of scratching your head going, wow, that one that I just kind of threw together.

00:54:59:26 - 00:55:14:07
John Simmerman
And then it sort of morphed into this from two months ago is now in the number two spot. It'll probably take the number one spot for too much longer. Talk a little bit about that new process and what we can expect from the Strong Towns channel in the future.

00:55:14:10 - 00:55:35:25
Mike Pasternock
Yeah, so I we have a sort of content pause that comes in January where we sort of evaluate how did this year go, what are we going to keep and what are we going to leave. And one thing that I really wanted to do was take some time to look at some of the inspirations that I really want to learn from.

00:55:35:28 - 00:56:05:26
Mike Pasternock
And so I followed their patrons for like a month and I was looking at specifically the team of the fault line, which is a a channel that talks about the geography channel called The Answer in Progress, which is three friends who just look at questions. They're interested in and the Jonny Harris team. I just I love his current videos, not as not as much as his the work he did with Vox with the Borders series.

00:56:05:29 - 00:56:38:01
Mike Pasternock
So I wanted to see the process and the structure and I listen to the behind the scenes podcast and I looked at the scripts and I found that the script structure of the Jonny Harris team is one I really wanted to emulate, starting with a info brief on a subject, taking that, creating an outline based on that outline, doing the research that needs to be done, taking all of that research and turning that research into a script and finding the narrative there.

00:56:38:04 - 00:57:12:21
Mike Pasternock
So we have leveraged, as I mentioned before, the talent of our staff writers to and merge that with my skill when it comes to storytelling and videography. And I think we're going to have a nice mix of more stuff that is like our Brattleboro video where I get to do the kind of stuff that I'm I think I'm really good at when it comes to interviewing and going to a place and filming this many docs as well as the this design, the one that says this was a mistake.

00:57:12:21 - 00:57:48:26
Mike Pasternock
The Yeah, this designer. Yeah, this experiment undid our city and how do we fix it with way more depth to our research because our stuff is there. I just don't like citing strong towns, you know, like strong towns setting strong towns I like because within those articles there's really great stuff. But I really I think there's so much talent now that's being applied to that research side that will give people so much more evidence to be able to stand on right when they make these arguments.

00:57:48:28 - 00:58:21:03
Mike Pasternock
So I think we're going to be seeing less of, say, the first video I made that is preachy and like just large, like 30,000 foot kind of videos. And we're going to be getting more like into the nitty gritty. So a video that fingers crossed weather permits I'll be filming later this week is about like street safety and visibility and I'm going to do some answer in progress style filming where I'm going to film my own little experiment.

00:58:21:05 - 00:58:33:22
Mike Pasternock
And I think that's as fun. But we also have pages and pages of research that Sierra has done that we're adapting into a script. And so that combination is really exciting.

00:58:33:24 - 00:59:04:10
John Simmerman
I love it. I love it. I'm very, very excited for what's coming up in the future. I absolutely am delighted to have you here on the Active Teams podcast to talk about this and and super, super stoked for you and for the organization that you found each other. It's it's absolutely it's been such a breath of fresh air to see the the and the delivery on it.

00:59:04:12 - 00:59:34:05
John Simmerman
I love your style of of filming and it was interesting hearing your story about where you came from, from the prankster sort of side of YouTube. And there's none of that in here. I mean, but this you've used are amazing. I love the quick cuts on it. And and I never felt like you were preaching, but I know that that can kind of come off because, you know, ultimately when you're trying to deliver messages that's there.

00:59:34:07 - 00:59:59:13
John Simmerman
But what's really, I think, quite appropriate and it was very, very evident in the the most recent one, the Fix It or removed were those interviews and being able to tell help, tell out and tease those personal stories that were part of that. So I do hope that that continues to be part of the mix as you guys pull together the scripts for the future videos.

00:59:59:15 - 01:00:21:17
Mike Pasternock
For sure. And we talk so much in the beginning about like Mesa and Tempe because we really got to the good stuff at the end. But that's where that's the art of of a good podcast, though, as you find your way to the to the good stuff at the end. So I mean I do think to just moving forward in the YouTube space, there's so much excitement around this style as well.

01:00:21:19 - 01:00:48:08
Mike Pasternock
Yes. Someone like Flair Designs in his video called The Design Ification of American Cities, I believe it's called is right, approaching 500,000 views. Yeah I mean like amazing studio Leonardo Rachel has been doing really, really good work and she's based out of Spain. Then you have Nik Laporte. I think he's he's really engaging in this, you know micro-mobility there's a new on street something.

01:00:48:10 - 01:01:02:10
Mike Pasternock
you know, I need to find it. It's street craft. Okay. Street. Yeah. I mean, this is a really exciting time to be in the YouTube urbanism space and.

01:01:02:10 - 01:01:25:09
John Simmerman
Well, in it's in it's. It's YouTube urbanism. Yes, but this is like edutainment, too. Yeah, This this entire genre is like the exact opposite of the pranking videos and and the and the Mr. Beast style videos. I mean, these are very much people who are wanting to to learn something and at the same time be entertained a fair amount do.

01:01:25:11 - 01:01:46:29
Mike Pasternock
Yeah I people aren't are the right audience finds us the people who aren't looking to be entertained by like really quick like in your face like boom, boom, boom, boom. I think each of us has our own style that will find different people. And I try to find a nice blend of what will reach new people in a way that a lot of our audience did not like at first.

01:01:46:29 - 01:02:20:23
Mike Pasternock
They were like, Stop talking. I want to see the studies. And but for me, I'm like, I want to make these videos in a way that is accessible to you. Like my parents who are smart people and are not interested in urbanism, right? Like, how do we reach the people who are receptive to new ideas but also don't have the personal motivation to sit through a super long analysis on like a streetscape, You know what I'm saying?

01:02:20:23 - 01:02:48:03
Mike Pasternock
Like, yeah, so that's where our niche is. But then that like City nerd, I personally have a blast listening to raise like tone as he as he inserts jokes in a way that you really can't catch unless you're like paying attention. And I love just having his videos take me through his entire process of why he chose to leave this stat out and put this one in.

01:02:48:05 - 01:03:10:26
Mike Pasternock
Most people aren't in that camp. You know, there are 200 whatever number thousand people who are. But if we try to be so broadly like, I'm going to take that back, I think there is a way that we can be extremely broadly accessible and someone is going to do it and they are going to absolutely kill it. And I think Jason has found a way to do it.

01:03:10:28 - 01:03:43:07
Mike Pasternock
But like each of us has our own way that we're going to reach different people. And that's what's exciting, is who knows whether, like I really hope, like surf design keeps it up, who knows whether that's it and we end up, you know, having the next million sub urban is channel and like in the same way that our M transit like isn't at say 2 million subs but Reece his audience is perfect as his audience right right yeah you know what I'm saying?

01:03:43:07 - 01:04:01:17
Mike Pasternock
Like sometimes our stuff isn't made for virality and that's that's okay, right? I think we're trying to reach that a little bit as strong towns. And that's a tension that is it's tough to navigate, but we're figuring it out. I'm excited to see where we go.

01:04:01:19 - 01:04:12:27
John Simmerman
Well, like I said, I am excited as well. And it's been an absolute joy and honor having you here on the Active Towns podcast. Mike, Thank you so much.

01:04:12:29 - 01:04:18:00
Mike Pasternock
John Thanks for having me. This is great. Well, I see you at the National Gathering this year. I'll be there.

01:04:18:01 - 01:04:23:06
John Simmerman
I'll be there, I'll put me to work. Guys, I want to you.

01:04:23:08 - 01:04:26:06
Mike Pasternock
Awesome. Well, thanks, man. It's been great.

01:04:26:08 - 01:04:47:10
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up and leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and bring the notifications Bell And if you are enjoying content, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an active town's ambassador.

01:04:47:10 - 01:05:17:04
John Simmerman
It's easy to do. Just head on over to active townsfolk 4G. Click on that support button and there's several options out there, including becoming a Patreon supporter. Patrons do gain access to all this video content, early access. Well, until next time this John signing off by wishing you much activity health and happiness cheers and again sending a huge thank you to all my active towns ambassadors supporting the channel on patron buy me a coffee YouTube super thanks.

01:05:17:11 - 01:05:28:07
John Simmerman
As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the active town store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated. Thank you all so much.