Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:00
Ruth Oldenziel
Everybody wants to talk about Paris, and I think we should. Because Paris, to me, if I put the five factors on it. What's important in Paris is one. Even though we all suggest big avenue, with all these cars actually pairs has, if you look at the modal split, was a, public transit and and walking city.

00:00:29:03 - 00:00:46:04
Ruth Oldenziel
And, so that's one, and when the metro is on strike, people take out their bicycles and cycle. So they knew how to cycle in some ways. But of course, what's key in in Paris right now is the political will.

00:00:46:06 - 00:01:03:05
John Simmerman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Professor Ruth Oldenziel from the Technical University in Eindhoven. And we are going to be talking about, the series of books that they have been working on, for the over the years, the Cycling Cities. This one is the European experience.

00:01:03:05 - 00:01:20:18
John Simmerman
And they're working on several additional installations to that project, including, the African Experience. Minneapolis and Cork. And before we get started, I just wanted to say, if you're enjoying this content here in the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Super easy to do. You can join right down below.

00:01:20:18 - 00:01:40:04
John Simmerman
Just click on that join button as well as navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the page. And there's several different options, including making a donation to the nonprofit and becoming a Patreon member. Okay, let's get right to it. Whether Ruth.

00:01:40:06 - 00:01:45:17
John Simmerman
Professor Ruth Oldenziel, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:01:45:19 - 00:01:47:16
Ruth Oldenziel
Thank you for having me.

00:01:47:19 - 00:01:57:22
John Simmerman
Now, Ruth. I love giving my guests just a quick opportunity to introduce themselves. So what's your elevator pitch? Your 32nd introduction as to who Ruth is?

00:01:57:25 - 00:02:23:18
Ruth Oldenziel
Oh. Well, I was actually, I'm an, historian. I was trained as an Americanist, and it's, through, I guess Obama at the time, who, in to do, reintroduced cycling as a viable, topic in the United States in the 2000 and, eight elections. And, and I thought, hey, actually, I'm Dutch.

00:02:23:18 - 00:02:27:25
Ruth Oldenziel
I know something about it. And, so this is how it all started.

00:02:27:27 - 00:02:33:12
John Simmerman
Fantastic, fantastic. And, where are you located? Where are you actually residing?

00:02:33:15 - 00:02:59:18
Ruth Oldenziel
Yeah, that's very unusual. I'm, I'm a historian, in the city of and Hove, and I. Nova is the car capital of the Netherlands. And so, and I'm a technical university, which means that I'm a minority and a minority with minority, because, you know, I'm a woman mining historian, and I do bicycles in a car oriented, university.

00:02:59:18 - 00:03:03:09
Ruth Oldenziel
So that's a nice place to be. In the belly of the beast.

00:03:03:11 - 00:03:23:20
John Simmerman
The belly of the beast, so to speak. And I notice that, our connection is a little weak here. Your your your visual is sort of, fuzzy right now, but that's okay. I think it'll get better over time. So I'm going to actually pull over to this website, the Cycling Cities website, and we're going to be talking a little bit about your experience.

00:03:23:22 - 00:03:31:17
John Simmerman
And, I have a surprise here for you too, because, I actually I have this.

00:03:31:19 - 00:03:34:20
Ruth Oldenziel
Wow. You know, to collect this item. Do you?

00:03:34:23 - 00:04:02:15
John Simmerman
It is. Yeah. So that was published that the first European Cycling city survey was published back in 2016. You and I have met before. We met back in 2018 during a people for bike study tour to the Netherlands. And and so we're going to be talking a lot about, the cycling cities research, experience, the global experience, what you guys are doing from a research perspective and these different, books that are being produced.

00:04:02:18 - 00:04:14:28
John Simmerman
But you mentioned history and historian. And I notice as I was digging deeper into your website, you're connected with a fellow, a historian that I know quite well and has been on the podcast several times.

00:04:14:28 - 00:05:00:25
Ruth Oldenziel
Peter Naughton yeah. You know, we we are, really best friends and we, we just really love each other's work. And I'm an admirer of, of Peter, and, and he is also, you know, I got him involved in the Cycling City Africa experience, and, we traveled together in Africa. And that was also quite something, you know, to have two, historians on the road in Africa and, observing what happens there when you travel by car and chickens and people and goats are crossing the road.

00:05:00:28 - 00:05:03:05
Ruth Oldenziel
Yeah. It was very enjoyable.

00:05:03:08 - 00:05:10:03
John Simmerman
And I guess, and I guess just to make sure we're talking about the same Peter Norton. Right. From the University of Virginia. Correct?

00:05:10:06 - 00:05:11:00
Ruth Oldenziel
Yes.

00:05:11:03 - 00:05:11:21
John Simmerman
Fantastic.

00:05:11:21 - 00:05:42:10
Ruth Oldenziel
Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Well, I guess, why we like each other's work is that that he's, he's of course, the one who put traffic as a historical topic, on the map, and explaining to us all that, it's it's the street that we see today is not inevitable. It has a history. And, and, it was a lot of, contested terrain, rules.

00:05:42:14 - 00:06:06:21
Ruth Oldenziel
But, it's, instituted by a car lobby, trying to get, pedestrians. And also, that's my story. Exactly. Out of the way. And so, yeah, I guess we we have a lot to talk about. When we, talk about our favorite topics of cars and bicycles and pedestrians.

00:06:06:24 - 00:06:35:23
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Well, you gave a little bit of that context of of, dating back to the Obama administration and, and that era of that, you're thinking, oh, gee, I know a little bit about this whole bicycling thing. Yeah. So you're you're down in Eindhoven, as you call it, the car capital of the Netherlands. I've been there. I've, I've documented the, the wonderful hoven ring that you have there, which really put, I think, Eindhoven on the map from a bicycle infrastructure thing.

00:06:35:23 - 00:06:57:19
John Simmerman
It's like the, the bicycle infrastructure bling of the Hoven ring. And I know that the city is trying to be, you know, you know, improve, make it more, pedestrian and bicycle friendly. I know that there's been a lot of, work being done, like, especially, like, on the underpasses and trying to enliven them and make them more friendly.

00:06:57:21 - 00:06:58:06
John Simmerman
But talk.

00:06:58:06 - 00:06:59:15
Ruth Oldenziel
A little bit about.

00:06:59:17 - 00:07:24:18
John Simmerman
You know what it's like being a historian, you know, studying these, this, this particular area and that intersection and relationship with cycling and the motor vehicle world. And being in a city like Eindhoven, which has been, you know, changing quite a bit, in fact, my visit to the whole Hoven ring all day. This for you? It was in 2015, so I was there to visit in 2015.

00:07:24:20 - 00:07:52:13
Ruth Oldenziel
Yeah. Well, and a whole phone ring, which is a kind of. It's almost looks like a spaceship. It's it's an elevated roundabout for cyclist and, you would, as you say, it is a lot of bling, but it's actually not very practical. And it came out of, I really, it was about busses that I had to get the right of way.

00:07:52:13 - 00:08:18:09
Ruth Oldenziel
And, because cyclists are everywhere, the only solution they had was to elevate cyclists. Well, this is not the kind of infrastructure that I think, is the way to go at all. It's the same as you have pedestrians, having to cross, highways and, you're asking people and children and elderly and, you know, to, first go up and then down.

00:08:18:14 - 00:08:43:06
Ruth Oldenziel
That's not what we want and have cars, have the easy way. And, and this is really, really instructive. I know a lot of your listeners probably think of, cycling, Dutch cycling as one phenomenon, but it is actually not, if we think, three cities like A12 and East, the car, centered, city.

00:08:43:06 - 00:09:09:06
Ruth Oldenziel
And then we have Rotterdam, where we met, which is the port city that was destroyed during the war and then rebuilt in some ways as a car city. But not entirely as it turns out, it was also a so a public transit, city. And therefore it did allow for some cycling, but not a lot. And then we have Amsterdam, which is truly the cycling capital of the world.

00:09:09:09 - 00:09:41:20
Ruth Oldenziel
And there, bicycles are everywhere. And that is in part a artifact of history, because public transit was really expensive. The city was, is a historic city, still based on, in part medieval, and, urban planning. And, so we have their rate of maybe 40% of a cycling share of cycling.

00:09:41:20 - 00:10:10:12
Ruth Oldenziel
And in a we, it's like 27, which is low in the Netherlands. And, Rotterdam is a little bit above. So what we learn as as, example of the Netherlands is that we, it's never good to talk about national, cycling culture. It is really, the, on the city level. That's at least the research that we did, that dates back to the 1990s.

00:10:10:12 - 00:10:54:08
Ruth Oldenziel
So, just to talk about how, how this came about. So in the 1990s, the national, the Dutch national, government actually, invested a little bit of money, into cycling, which was new because usually it's done on a city level. And at the end of their project in the 90s, when the money was gone, they said, well, maybe we should or we caught this and, they asked and my colleagues at the time here in Tulsa to write a study where, we comparing what the Dutch experience was vis-a-vis some other European cities and, well, a couple of things came out of that study.

00:10:54:08 - 00:11:30:05
Ruth Oldenziel
One is, as I just said, that there are huge differences within the country. And so that it's not natural. It's not inevitable. So that was very important. And, secondly, they developed, what we then a further developed explaining how can you become a cycling city. And at the time they looked at three factors. One was what everybody asked, okay, the Netherlands is flat, so it must be the fiscal environment.

00:11:30:11 - 00:11:57:23
Ruth Oldenziel
Well, that turned out not to be the case that that's the determining factors. So urban planning was actually more important. So that was factor one. Then the ministry that was interested in what are the mobility alternatives. You know what what is what what are the options that people have. So then they looked at both mobility public transit and walking.

00:11:57:26 - 00:12:12:26
Ruth Oldenziel
So that became factor number two. And then also the traffic models, like is it a shared road or is it, traffic engineering with separation, I see that you have, Johannesburg on the screen.

00:12:12:26 - 00:12:27:09
John Simmerman
I do, yeah. So I have, I have the five factors, outlined here. So factor one is, as you said, you know, we're taking look at infrastructure and then, factor two is here. Yes. And this is Johannesburg.

00:12:27:11 - 00:13:01:19
Ruth Oldenziel
Yeah. So infrastructure is what we usually think of you know, let's get more bicycle lanes. But that is not a is not determining factor in B. It also turns out to have a, a very complicated historical, background, because the picture that we're looking at is in, in Johannesburg and was actually used to separate white Automobile City from, black, workers going from, doing place of work and place of residence.

00:13:01:22 - 00:13:32:20
Ruth Oldenziel
And we have now are also discovering the same history in, in Nairobi where, cycling actually, cycle paths have a apartheid, background and, and, and we found this actually in European cities as well as engineers, traffic engineers were preparing for the automobile of the future. They were thinking of how to get people cyclists out of the way.

00:13:32:20 - 00:14:09:05
Ruth Oldenziel
And that is the story also in the Netherlands, that the cycle pass was a way of separating, slow and fast, traffic, but really marginalizing it. And, in the Dutch case, we also discovered through our other research that, in the 1930s, the, the millions of cyclists paid for the high, weight construction for, a really the minority of a minority was only like a couple of percentage, whereas the cyclists were the majority.

00:14:09:11 - 00:14:37:09
Ruth Oldenziel
So very surprising outcome of, of the infrastructure, and models of, traffic separation. So that is, yeah, we call that our factor number three. And as I said, you know, the, the urban planning, like what does a city look like? And then this is your traffic. We are looking here. I believe it is, Cairo.

00:14:37:12 - 00:15:07:00
Ruth Oldenziel
And this is a, picture we find in many, many cities, global cities around the world that where public transit busses are, overcrowded, and become really problematic, that, people start to find other ways. And that usually is a, beneficial factor for cycling. So people then start to acquire, bicycles to, commute. Yeah, it's a wonderful picture.

00:15:07:00 - 00:15:28:28
Ruth Oldenziel
And we have I have pictures from China and from a pool and, and, yeah. And it's all this, a case where, governments are not able to really provide, mobility alternatives, public transit alternatives for people. And that cycling then becomes a real great option for commuting.

00:15:29:01 - 00:15:48:05
John Simmerman
And this is a powerful image. I mean, it's an image, for the listening only audience is an image of a bus. And literally, 4 or 5 men are hanging, out of the bus. It's so packed. And they're just, you know, hanging on for dear life, at the doorstep. They're, trying to make it to that next destination.

00:15:48:08 - 00:15:54:23
John Simmerman
It's pretty wild. This is you mentioned Nairobi, earlier. Again, this is part of factor three.

00:15:54:26 - 00:16:23:15
Ruth Oldenziel
Well, let me this is, you would think it might be India, but it's actually Indian, cyclist in, chic, cyclist in Nairobi and and. No, but you're you're, I completely understand what is is a confusing image, but, what would we discovered is that, Indian traders were crucial in helping to commercialize, cycling in Africa all over the continent.

00:16:23:18 - 00:16:57:02
Ruth Oldenziel
And, and, because bicycles at the time were instruments of colonial rule. And then as the, the prices went down, Indian traders were, able to import, the from, from the UK to Africa. So they were really instrumental. What I also find fascinating about this image is we are seeing a really wide, sophisticated, road, almost like an urban highway, completely empty.

00:16:57:04 - 00:17:37:00
Ruth Oldenziel
And this is from, I think it's 1932, 33, 1930s. And, this is what we see all over the world. In the 1930s, traffic engineers were preparing for Automobile City. And, what are we talking about? Sweden. When we're talking about terrain and in this case, in Nairobi and today everywhere, and there is this historical moment where cyclists are really happy with this empty road and using, just, you know, happy, happy riders.

00:17:37:03 - 00:18:18:28
Ruth Oldenziel
And we know the story afterwards that this then becomes a later when actually automobile, after a lot of lobbying of the car industry, only sort of takes off in the 1950s, that this becomes the the traffic jam that we are so familiar with in so many cities. But initially it was not. Yeah. And, yeah. Then the, the, the, I guess the next, factor that we sort of introduced as new factors because these first three were, developed in the 1990s, but we discovered also that what's really important to explain why, one cycling, one city becomes a two cycling cities and others are not is the social movement.

00:18:18:28 - 00:18:47:04
Ruth Oldenziel
And so here we're looking at a iconic, image of a, sit down, cyclist with their, bicycles in front of the, Projects Museum. For those people who know Rembrandt. And then Nightwatch is in there. But. And what we're looking at is it is thousands and thousands of cyclist, demanding, the street for, cycling.

00:18:47:04 - 00:19:26:12
Ruth Oldenziel
And this comes at the moment in the 1970s, which I remember, Amsterdam was was not a cycling city, friendly city. It was, congested. It was polluted. There was no, exhaust and it was not pleasant. And so it was a nadir of of, cycling in Amsterdam that cyclists came together, and and protested, and we're, able to sustain this over, I guess, half a century.

00:19:26:14 - 00:20:01:21
Ruth Oldenziel
That is also something that we've learned in the that the Dutch, countercultural movement was very locally organized as a federation in every little town and big city. And that is in part their success. They were also able to start conversations with traffic engineers and really intervene on the street like, let's do you know, let's make a bicycle, friendly city, have, what's very important traffic calming and not bicycle paths.

00:20:01:24 - 00:20:36:26
Ruth Oldenziel
And, that car should be, just guests only. But what the good news, I guess, for your listeners who really think, oh, you know, we'll never be a Dutch cycling city. Well, yes, you can. Yes, you can. But it takes a lot of, activism. This took 15 years. And in Amsterdam, we're only now, after half a century, in the place where cars are no longer ruling the streets.

00:20:36:28 - 00:20:52:16
Ruth Oldenziel
So that is fact. And number four, you really need a vibrant, persistent social movement, that's able to make coalition with policymakers, but also across class. That's very important.

00:20:52:18 - 00:21:17:03
John Simmerman
Right. And and sticking with that a little bit with regards to the social movement. And, and you had mentioned that every sort of geography, every city sort of had their own, identity, their own group that was fighting within their, their particular municipality. The features bond, you know, you have kind of this movement, you know, kind of a at a, at a bigger area.

00:21:17:03 - 00:21:42:22
John Simmerman
But you do have like, officers born, within a particular area. And you mentioned it there is they have a seat at the table there actually, you know, demanding and working and working with the municipality, working with the government, to ensure that those needs are being met, the needs of people who want to be able to get around by some other means other than a private automobile.

00:21:42:25 - 00:22:19:05
Ruth Oldenziel
Exactly. And it's a it's a subtle combination between, you know, being visible, on the street. And of course, critical mass is, is is sort of that legacy from, from that, Dutch, history. But it is also, about elections, because we also see that elections do matter. And then, we also see that it make, the kind of governance that you have, whether you have a regional coalition as well.

00:22:19:07 - 00:22:48:05
Ruth Oldenziel
And, and finally, what is also crucial is that the features bond in the beginning, famously, was part of, Stop the Kingdom War A, which was a coalition of, teacher parents and, and children, demanding, a safe, street, and, and also, journalists who were picking up that story.

00:22:48:08 - 00:23:19:01
Ruth Oldenziel
So, it is not I mean, that we keep on saying and every case study shows it is not just one factor. And I'm I'm really I understand that sometimes you need to invest in bicycle lanes, but it is only one little piece of the bigger story. You need all these factors because the last factor, I don't know if you want to talk about that or, is is about what, the image, you know, the culture repertoires.

00:23:19:04 - 00:23:51:16
Ruth Oldenziel
So in cities where, the middle class or, an aspiring class is, is part of it, you will see that that gives leverage and, you, you build support. And we're now looking at. Yeah, I think it's the most fantastic, bicycle. It comes from, in Zambia. And, it's it's a bicycle taxi, but it is.

00:23:51:18 - 00:24:28:01
Ruth Oldenziel
Yeah, it is, it's a repurposed bicycle. It has, a lot of cultural resonance. But in the context of Africa, they're at the lowest rung. And you can, even though they're economically viable and and, vital actually, because they, they fill the gap where public transit fails, for, people commuting and particularly women, in the rural areas who, who, trade in the city, they don't have any prestige.

00:24:28:04 - 00:25:01:06
Ruth Oldenziel
And so, the cultural repertoires are really very, very important. And you need, you need both, you know, you need the social organization, but you also need positive images. That's are unfortunately based on class and usually when only low class people are using bicycles, it has a bad reputation. On the other hand, I also don't think that if you only have a leisure class using bicycle, that that will also will not advance your costs.

00:25:01:08 - 00:25:16:20
Ruth Oldenziel
So you need a really broad coalition and and multiple, representations of what cycling can mean to people. It can be sports, it can be, in this case, public transit, alternative as a bicycle taxi.

00:25:16:25 - 00:25:52:06
John Simmerman
Fantastic. So again, this is a series of, of publications, cycling city publications, that you have been working on. The core of this is also part of the the research that has been, you know, embarked upon. You talked a little bit about that, that history, at some point in time. So if we go over to the, the, the cycling PhD program and you take a look at, what's going on here, we see that the sustainable urban mobility, the some PhD program is, is at the core of all this.

00:25:52:06 - 00:26:00:14
John Simmerman
Why don't you talk a little bit about this, this program and its relationship to the these manuals?

00:26:00:17 - 00:26:53:21
Ruth Oldenziel
Yeah. So, I mean, it we know we're researcher, so it starts and and and ends with research because without the research, you know, you will only have, maybe storytelling, but not the hard data. And so I'm very proud that in 2016, we had, a first program of PhD, and since then, many, many more and, I, you know, we had, particular a couple of, PhD said just looked at really understanding what Dutch cycling is about and we actually what it is but the, the bulk that we did in 2016, the European books, that was comparative, right, where we really tried to understand, the differences,

00:26:53:21 - 00:27:18:10
Ruth Oldenziel
the similarities. And so the outcome of that was that these five factors are important and that they have to come together in an IDE, to a really an ideal way. And then you have the biggest change to be Cycling City. But as soon as we were done with the book, there was a, or an a man who who said, can we be in the second condition because we're you're not in the book.

00:27:18:10 - 00:27:46:12
Ruth Oldenziel
And I said, sorry, no, you know, we're there is not going to be a second edition. That's why I said it's collector's items are sold out. And, it is very expensive to produce. But I said, okay, but we can start a sister project. And so we did. And, at the time was asking a name it. And then The Hague came in and Rotterdam came in and then Munich came in, and Johannesburg just, just before Covid.

00:27:46:15 - 00:28:05:26
Ruth Oldenziel
And then I thought, okay, this is the end of it. You know, this is, it's not we'll stop here. So then what happened is, two great things. One of my colleagues in Lisbon who had been writing about the automobile and told me when I asked her ten years earlier, you know, do you want to do a book on cycling?

00:28:05:28 - 00:28:35:01
Ruth Oldenziel
Said there's no cycling. There has never been a cycling history. In the meantime, she became an activist. And then she came back to me just after Covid and said, Ruth, I was wrong. Actually, there is cycling history. So that was, that we just published. But, another thing happened that colleagues in, in Africa, Joe Glamorgan, who had done the Johannesburg book, said, actually, we want cycling cities.

00:28:35:01 - 00:29:16:19
Ruth Oldenziel
The African experience. And, you know, I thought, what a great, great project. And, and now we have, I'm sort of losing count, but, I think we have 17 cities now in, 11 or 12 different nations, African nations. And, yeah, from ABBA to Zumba, from Cairo to Cape Town. And, it is both, a correction of the European experience because as we looked at the bicycle taxi, industry, we had, you know, we didn't have that in, in the European case.

00:29:16:26 - 00:29:55:16
Ruth Oldenziel
And also the importance of bicycles for, the transport of goods, also a very unique story, as well as NGOs investing in bicycles for women, rural or women, as a kind of, to allow them to be more powerful and earn money and so forth. And at the same time, you see the kind of critical mass movement, another, for the middle class from Puerto to Nairobi to Cairo, it really a very different kind of movement.

00:29:55:18 - 00:30:19:19
Ruth Oldenziel
And they coexist in one city. So in Maputo, you have NGOs that are trying to solve poverty through bicycles, but you also see a aspiring middle class wanting to be part of critical mass and, you know, a ride on Sundays, as part of a lifestyle. And you see that same in Cairo and in Nairobi. So we learned a great deal.

00:30:19:19 - 00:30:40:05
Ruth Oldenziel
And we were very proud that, as we speak, we're finishing it and still crowdfunding for the last, last, parts so that we can actually publish this in, in the fall, in November. And then it's coming out and it's going to be the same coffee table format. But then with these unique stories on Africa.

00:30:40:07 - 00:30:52:27
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I'm popping over to the funding page here. So you mentioned. Yes. You're these these books are being crowdfunded. And so you're in the final stages of crowdfunding for the African experience.

00:30:52:29 - 00:31:24:05
Ruth Oldenziel
Yeah, yeah. So we go, for Africa. Well, I mean, you wouldn't be surprised that, the funding for science and technology in Africa is minimal. So we really had to go through other, crowd, fund and as sources. So, we had the full foundation in Sweden to give you some money, but then we have the go Fund me and, yeah, we're still, another 10,000 that we're looking for.

00:31:24:08 - 00:31:50:22
Ruth Oldenziel
For the last part, and, but since, since this. So, so this is, upcoming and then we also will go to, the United States for the first time with Peter Burt. And I believe that you will. We have him also on the program. So that's going to be really unique, that we are going to, the United States, for the first time for Minneapolis.

00:31:50:22 - 00:32:19:14
Ruth Oldenziel
And that's also, again, a unique story. And the US is actually more similar than different from Europe. That's what actually the story of Minneapolis shows. There was a lot of cycling and, and also, counter, cultural movement, and, yeah. So that, we're really looking forward to, working with more people in, in the United States.

00:32:19:14 - 00:32:48:08
Ruth Oldenziel
And maybe this is also an opportunity of how we work. And I guess it's unique in that the books are really meant for people to enjoy reading. So even though it's based on solid academic research, you will not find, abstract academic language. We despise it. We actually want people to enjoy, this, research that we found.

00:32:48:08 - 00:33:22:19
Ruth Oldenziel
So it's really about storytelling, but based on solid research and what was also, I guess, unique is that, we work with local researchers, and sometimes their bicycle activists are interesting history. Sometimes are the academics that are interested in, in, cycling. Sometimes. And they're, consultants who have taken up, this or sometimes, like our researcher from Tehran, he just walked into my office and he said, I want to work on something.

00:33:22:26 - 00:33:46:01
Ruth Oldenziel
And I said, well, what about cycling and tear? And and so we trained him to be an historian. And it's and that's going to be our next book after this is mind blowing. You would not have thought that story. So, every book is yet another fantastic insight for me into, you know, what makes it tick in Cork.

00:33:46:04 - 00:34:28:29
Ruth Oldenziel
They also have a unique coalition with engineers, with activists, with, a library and and, yeah, you're pulling up, the one on Tehran. Well, the images are already so, mind blowing. You know, you have, a, really modern urbanizing city, but also Orientalism. Battling it out and and cycling being at the forefront of that story where, European and American cyclist, tour around the world and they all have to go to Tehran, you know, because it's such a, Oriental place.

00:34:29:02 - 00:34:55:15
Ruth Oldenziel
That's then in the, in the 1920s. And then there's modernism, and then we get to Islam and, and yet there is, cycling. So, yeah, that's also a really wonderful story. And then Cork is in Ireland and, there's still a lot of cycling. Till very late they had ultra mobility late. And they're in the process of, of finishing their story, and, yeah.

00:34:55:15 - 00:35:30:03
Ruth Oldenziel
So every time we learn both, how similar the stories are all over the world and how different and, and that's sort of the last, part. Why this, this project is so unique is that we can truly compare and contrast. We're not talking about best practices. We are actually getting our an understanding and analyze what's unique about your city and what's, what's similar and taking it from there.

00:35:30:03 - 00:36:05:03
Ruth Oldenziel
And, and then this is actually our whole publication, process is moving into yet another really exciting 2.0 or maybe three point or 4.0, I don't know, but, is that we are in the last year and a half, we, developing different tools. What does that mean? So the tool number one is obviously the books, the books that are accessible are nice to have, nice to read.

00:36:05:05 - 00:36:37:23
Ruth Oldenziel
And, that's one tool of communication. And without it, we cannot do the other parts. The second one is, that we, we have, a platform that we're developing with our students here in different classes to have a platform where ultimately you will be able to compare the different cities, in terms of images, model split data, the narratives.

00:36:37:25 - 00:37:11:13
Ruth Oldenziel
And we're going to prototype it and show that in, in the fall. And then, the third tool that we're developing also as a digital tool is have a scoreboard, you know, how well is your city doing, in terms of sustainability, because we have unique data on a model split. We can, you know, sometimes we have, for example, in Cape Town in, in 1930s, exactly how many cyclists are, riding out of town, an end of time, to town.

00:37:11:13 - 00:37:48:18
Ruth Oldenziel
And we're putting that together with the sustainability index bike CO2 to our, and the wear and tear of your road or, health and so forth. And then the, the, the next tool that we're developing is for, for education, you know, that you can use this, but finally, we also, have developed and we actually went to Africa with, exhibits where we, had you know, we display and we're developing this further.

00:37:48:26 - 00:38:14:29
Ruth Oldenziel
So we are, while the books remain, are a core business in some ways, because without and we cannot do the others, we are moving to a new phase where we really rolling out, these different tools to have this whole suite suit. There you have it. This is in, Tom Island in a northern part of, Ghana, where there's a lot of cycling.

00:38:15:01 - 00:38:41:12
Ruth Oldenziel
And we see here this is the making of the book. So this is, where we have the storytelling, and we were able to hang that. And it was wonderful because we were, we have here the researchers, but also the, with their policymakers, had their workshop in this, space. And then we also had kids going to school, walking through this exhibit space.

00:38:41:12 - 00:39:03:15
Ruth Oldenziel
And it was just, really mind blowing experience for us. And we combined that then with a bicycle tour in Mali. So it is all part of the same design, you know, it's all part of an immersed, immersive experience of the research in different forms and formats. Yeah.

00:39:03:18 - 00:39:31:12
John Simmerman
And what's really, you know, fascinating about this work that you're doing and the work that Peter Naughton has, has done from a historian's perspective is we're telling the story. We're digging deeper understanding more about the historical context of cycling within these cities. And then you're bringing it up to modern times, and then you're starting to be able to to say, okay, you know, this is what the situation is like now.

00:39:31:12 - 00:40:02:12
John Simmerman
And you talk about the scorecard and, and looking at opportunities for, for sure moving forward in the future. And I think that's a really, really important part of especially like in the experience of the here and now within like North American cities is as we're like aspiring to be more walkable and bikeable. And we look towards, you know, the Netherlands and, and maybe Copenhagen and maybe even, you know, places like Munich or, or Paris.

00:40:02:12 - 00:40:41:18
John Simmerman
Paris right now has, has, has tremendous improvement over the last decade. I was there in 2015 as well, and then also in 2022 and then last year in 2024. My documentation via video of the transformation of that city has been astounding. And so I think it's really important to have this educational part of, of of really highlighting the fact that there, there was a, a historical context, there was a cultural alignment with getting around within our cities by means other than just the automobile.

00:40:41:21 - 00:41:05:15
John Simmerman
It's just like it's it's sort of morphed through that, you know, sort of like the proverbial frog that's in the, in the, in the pan, you know, it's getting warmer and warmer and warmer. And next thing you know, you're cooked and, and, and Peter does a good job of saying this, that, you know, yes, there was some malicious intent by certain certain entities, but really it was more about capitalism and making money.

00:41:05:15 - 00:41:30:16
John Simmerman
And Motor Dome was what it was. But the reality is, is that the future and we can talk maybe about the Cycling futures program that you guys have there, the future doesn't have to be that we can learn from past experiences. We can tap into what cultural and historical context we have, and through education and awareness of these books as inspiration for others.

00:41:30:16 - 00:41:41:13
John Simmerman
And then like these types of interactions, to be able to engage the public, we can pay the different way forward. Pun intended on that.

00:41:41:15 - 00:42:23:01
Ruth Oldenziel
Well, I mean, I, let's talk about everybody wants to talk about Paris, and I think we should because Paris, to me, if I put the the five factors on it, what's important in Paris is one, even though we all saw this big avenue, with all these cars, actually, pairs has, if you look at the model split, was a, public transit and, and walking city and, so that's one, and when the metro is on strike, people take out their bicycles and cycle.

00:42:23:01 - 00:42:52:02
Ruth Oldenziel
So they knew how to cycle in some ways. But of course, what's key in in Paris right now is the political will of, you know, of someone, in, saying and in this case, the mayor of Paris, let's imagine a different future and let's, pay the political price in a way, because she's not afraid to say cars actually don't have a future in Paris.

00:42:52:05 - 00:43:22:06
Ruth Oldenziel
We want another livable city. And and, does it is sort of also what, the bicycle lane is very expensive. And actually, if you make, if you use the street that you have and you just say, tomorrow, let's change the rules here. Cars are guests and pedestrians and cyclists rule. I mean, you don't need $1 for that, right?

00:43:22:09 - 00:43:48:22
Ruth Oldenziel
And a New York and the, in New York, we've seen that as well with Times Square. But it takes political capital. That's what it is. And, it is so to stare blind only on the infrastructure is the wrong way. And so you need to build a different image of what the future is, to imagine it.

00:43:48:25 - 00:44:16:15
Ruth Oldenziel
Just like, as Peter Norden tells us, motor dome in the 20s, was sketching a different, future. They understood that game right in the 1920s. And we're after a lot of work. We're successful. We can be successful. Two and pair shows that, and you need that social movement. You need that that cultural repertoire. Like, let's imagine the future in a different way.

00:44:16:17 - 00:44:43:25
Ruth Oldenziel
You need the modal split. You need people, you need, public transit, and you need to urban planning. Because Paris is obviously a compact city. Now, does that mean that there's no hope for these sprawling cities? Well, you know, in the world, there there is the bike, a bike, train bike combination. And that one of my PhD thesis written about.

00:44:43:25 - 00:45:14:26
Ruth Oldenziel
And in Berlin, we see that as well, which is actually also a pretty expanded, city. So, there's absolutely no hope, for, for the United States and, but it is a combination of political will, of urban planning, of, long term vision, and understanding where your city comes from, and to understand that a lot of urban planning, and, and I'm, you know, I'm learning every day.

00:45:14:26 - 00:45:37:25
Ruth Oldenziel
I'm learning from Tehran. In the 1920s, they were building for a car. Future. Yeah. Of course, now we understand because there was oil, but there were no cars, but they had the rotor ready. Ready. We see this in Nairobi. We saw that wonderful picture that you saw. It was India, but it was actually in the 1920s where in Kenya, where they were imagining a car, a city.

00:45:37:25 - 00:45:54:12
Ruth Oldenziel
So, we can do the same for a walking and cycling, city for the future. It's just, it's it's really our imagination and our political will that, is the way forward. And, we have, the facts to show it.

00:45:54:14 - 00:46:27:21
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I'm glad you framed it that way with the the the story that is, Paris right now. And one of the contexts that that I sort of came away with last summer when I was visiting there is that. Yes. The the improvements have been astounding, that have happened since 2015. However, there's still a long ways off, you know, because I visited there, you know, having just, finished up the Velo Cities conference, you know, there in, in Belgium.

00:46:27:21 - 00:46:59:24
John Simmerman
And so I was there and and hint and then I was, immediately after that, then I was in Utrecht for three weeks and so that comparison of when you're, when you're there and you're like, okay, yes, it's better. But in many ways, from an infrastructure perspective, they still have a very, very long way to go. But one of the things that you said there that was very, very important was that they really leveraged the built network that they already had.

00:46:59:27 - 00:47:40:18
John Simmerman
Many of the side streets within Paris are very narrow and all that really needed to take place. It wasn't very expensive, it was just tweaking. It was to sort of reimagining how those narrower side streets were handled. Many of those narrower side streets also happened to be, school zone areas. And so they're magnificent 200, 300 plus school streets, implementations in Paris was brilliant because they were able to take with very, very low dollar investments, a traffic calming aspect of it, really turning these streets back over to the kids and to the parents, which was really phenomenal.

00:47:40:20 - 00:48:03:12
John Simmerman
That, to me was the big, bigger takeaway than necessarily the protected bike lanes and the Rue de Rivoli and all those, those are those are like splashy things. Those are those are bling. Just like we were talking about earlier with the Hoban ring. Is that. Yes, those, those catch the attention. But really, you know, to your point from earlier, the hoven ring is really automobile infrastructure.

00:48:03:14 - 00:48:26:01
John Simmerman
It's getting the people on, walking and biking out of the way so that the very large roads, roads, if you will, that that were intersecting down below the Hoven ring were able to be, you know, have free flow if you wish, you know, get those get those pesky humans out of the way so that we, you know, drivers, you know, are able to do that.

00:48:26:01 - 00:48:39:18
John Simmerman
So I really appreciate both those things that you had mentioned, both about the Hoven ring as well as, Paris. Let's talk a little bit about futures and and Smart Cycling Futures project. What's going on here with this.

00:48:39:20 - 00:49:05:03
Ruth Oldenziel
Well okay, I, I must admit, a lot of the funding in the last, ten years has been all about, you know, smart, smart, smart and ICT and so forth. And I'm, I'm actually not a believer in that. So I'm, I'm glad that we I, that you sort of highlight what we said. I think that, taking, tweaking the infrastructure that we have is much more important.

00:49:05:03 - 00:49:30:14
Ruth Oldenziel
And ultimately it is a, a political project. Because the elephant in the room that we have not talked about and you see some of that in, in Paris and in Amsterdam, just as a comparison is parking, parking is just dead bodies, right? It's just not mobility. It's dead mobility. And it takes away from the public space.

00:49:30:17 - 00:50:04:18
Ruth Oldenziel
And so cities that are truly able to wean off, the parking dollars and say, let's give it back to, to the public eye together with traffic calming. That is where you truly start a cycling city. And if you're not willing to do it, then, your case is pretty hopeless. And I, I say this from the point of view.

00:50:04:18 - 00:50:29:24
Ruth Oldenziel
Amsterdam, and I'm right now in its historic city, has done some of that, you know, the traffic calming and so forth. But what it has not done is say goodbye to parking, and it's sort of astounding, because, you know, we have more bicycle than we have cars, and the bicycles are all place in the pedestrian zones.

00:50:29:26 - 00:50:57:13
Ruth Oldenziel
And, you know, I have tried to argue that. Okay, let's convert the and the, the bicycle parking and the car parking into bicycle parking. Now, the next stage might be that you do, sharing, of course. Where you have, you need fewer bicycles in total. But let's just start with converting that, and that's, politically a no no in Amsterdam.

00:50:57:15 - 00:51:30:14
Ruth Oldenziel
Who would have thought? So that is the lesson. And one should not learn from a from Amsterdam is, you know, try and I think in Paris I've seen more, parking places being, converted in the side streets, for pedestrians and cycling. And I think that that is really very promising. And, hovering, as you already mentioned, is a truly an expression of, separate flows and a separate, infrastructure.

00:51:30:17 - 00:51:58:28
Ruth Oldenziel
And that's also how the city was built as a car dominated city. In the 50s, there were no cars, but there was a factory. And so they made the streets, very wide for cars, lots of cyclists on it, no cars. And then they started to make an infrastructure separately for, cyclist, which is really a kind of a funny artifact of, of history, but it's not the way to do it.

00:51:59:01 - 00:52:25:10
John Simmerman
Yeah. Now, you mentioned that Amsterdam could be doing better. It seems like I've been seeing a lot of of posts that have been I highlighting the fact that they, they are trying to get forward. I think the number was eliminating 10,000, parking spots in the city of Amsterdam. I understand that every single parking spot is hard to remove.

00:52:25:15 - 00:52:51:00
John Simmerman
It really is. I remember from years ago, I remember from years ago, a young girl in, in, in, in Copenhagen. This was in a documentary, a long time ago. I think it was called Contested Streets. He's quoted in there as saying that one of the things that they did in Copenhagen way back in the day was that they just eliminated the smallest amount.

00:52:51:00 - 00:52:51:11
Ruth Oldenziel
Just like.

00:52:51:11 - 00:53:22:07
John Simmerman
2% per year. And because nobody, nobody, nobody can, like, get their head wrapped around how small that is. But it totally adds up over time because it's like nobody, like, freaks out about, oh, you know, ten, 10% is gone. But ten years later you're talking about some big numbers. So it sounds like what you're saying is that they're having difficulty actually removing those spots that they're they've they've said that they're going to do.

00:53:22:07 - 00:53:48:09
Ruth Oldenziel
Yeah, yeah. We have a, a green, red, coalition, government, you know, unique I mean, they, they, they campaigned on it. They have been voted in a couple of times, but they're not very successful in, in doing it. And it's political will, but it's also the building codes. So when, and that is also something that is truly astounding.

00:53:48:09 - 00:54:20:26
Ruth Oldenziel
And some of our research is on that, is that a lot of these codes are being presented as, as law, but, a terrific engineer in, in Munich, has explained to me that a lot of the European, codes, for example, for how, how large the parking space needs to be. They're, they're just agreements, but they're not voted or and they're not signed into law.

00:54:20:29 - 00:54:50:02
Ruth Oldenziel
So when a city says, oh, well, we can't change it because the European rules or guidelines are to make them bigger for SUVs. You know, that's what's happening. So the parking becomes bigger and and, and that is a political discussion that is currently not on the table. It is not something that, people are willing to take up.

00:54:50:04 - 00:55:20:24
Ruth Oldenziel
And I think that that is where, we should focus on is to really examine how do we get these rules about parking and how many, cars to should be per household? It. Does that make sense? Because the, parking spot is usually households with walking and cycling is per person. And so you get these fudging of numbers, that we're really trying to, get a better understanding.

00:55:20:26 - 00:55:34:27
Ruth Oldenziel
And once we have unpacked those numbers, then we can also say, hey, maybe we need other guidelines, for this, because right now we're we're in a lock in.

00:55:34:29 - 00:56:11:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. And it's interesting too, because a lot of this ends up getting, what's the right word? A lot of this ends up evolving into culture war issues of the right versus the left. And and those people against these people, the drivers versus the non drivers and and back and forth. And it's really unfortunate because when we think about this, I mean we're just trying to create more livable places, without necessarily, impinging upon the freedoms and the mobility and the livelihoods of other people.

00:56:11:17 - 00:56:39:01
John Simmerman
And, and the late, great Donald Trump, you know, who wrote the high Cost of Free Parking? He was on the podcast just before he passed away. And I had his episode out on January 10th, and then he passed away a couple weeks later. He and I were talking about, you know, the necessity for us to, like, reframe our thought processes is from a human perspective of what a parking spot means.

00:56:39:03 - 00:57:00:22
John Simmerman
And when we. Because when you really think of it, it's just it's almost ludicrous that we have this expectation that we can that we can store private property in the public realm for little or no cost. This is you wouldn't you wouldn't you would. I mean, Ruth, I would love to have my my refrigerator out on the on me that would meet that be great.

00:57:00:24 - 00:57:37:04
Ruth Oldenziel
Well and and there are people in my street who use their cars as their shed, you know, and, and and, they, it's just storage room prayers. If, if a bicycle stays longer than 3 or 4 months, the city comes and removes them because they're not. And that is, and, and I also try to, in my street to have planters in the parking space and, debated this with the city council and, they said, yeah, but it cannot be removed, so.

00:57:37:04 - 00:57:55:16
Ruth Oldenziel
Okay, I'll put them on wheels. How about that? Of course, they didn't have an answer to it, but, and yeah, and, and these are all green politicians and they seem to be locked in to, these frames, and it doesn't make sense. Well, I'm glad.

00:57:55:17 - 00:58:35:18
John Simmerman
You use that term frame, because this is a framing. This is a, a way of thinking. And it gets back to the research that, Ian Walker is doing in studying, you know, modal normativity and the fact that the framing that has has been put forth through motor DM over the many, many decades has got us to, you know, sort of brainwashed to the point where we believe that, oh, well, that's okay that we park your car out there, but it's not necessarily okay for for us to park a, a van and then live in that van, you know, because there's a housing housing shortage and so we can't do that.

00:58:35:18 - 00:59:00:08
John Simmerman
That's not okay. But yes, we can park it and use it like storage and never move it necessarily. It gets a pass. Yeah. So it's a framing and that's part of what needs to change and what needs to happen. And, this has been such a fascinating discussion. It's been so wonderful catching up with you, Ruth. Thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:59:00:10 - 00:59:08:18
John Simmerman
Best of luck with everything you're doing. And I look forward to, connecting with you in person again very soon. Maybe next year.

00:59:08:21 - 00:59:16:14
Ruth Oldenziel
Yeah. And, we're so excited with all the projects in the pipeline and now starting. See, these 3.0.

00:59:16:16 - 00:59:43:15
John Simmerman
Yes. Exactly, exactly. And again, folks, be sure to head on over to the website and, and check it out. And if you can support, the, the GoFundMe means and if you can, you know, engage with this process, I can totally see that, you know, more, excitement and more cities, around the globe are going to be interested in understanding their historical past.

00:59:43:17 - 01:00:06:23
John Simmerman
It doesn't need to be necessarily a research project. It doesn't need to be a formalized book that gets done. But I am super, super excited about the fact that the very first North American or U.S city, is going to be outlined in Minneapolis. And again, as you mentioned, I will have Peter Bird on, so again, folks, head on over to the website cycling cities.info.

01:00:06:26 - 01:00:20:05
John Simmerman
And again, you can click on through to the upcoming books that are in the works right now. The African Experience, Cork as well as Minneapolis. Again, thank you so much, Ruth.

01:00:20:07 - 01:00:23:00
Ruth Oldenziel
Thank you for having thank you.

01:00:23:03 - 01:00:37:09
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Professor Ruth Underhill. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel again. Click on the subscription button down below.

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John Simmerman
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John Simmerman
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01:01:17:18 - 01:01:35:07
John Simmerman
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