Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:05 - 00:00:25:19
Mike Packard
I have to applaud the developers that are that are doing things right from the beginning because, you know, it's that much easier to to build appropriately from the beginning than than what the majority of my work is. And that's towards retrofitting. You know, we have we have a lot of large roads out there. And so not just from a bicycling standpoint, but from a pedestrian connectivity and safety.

00:00:25:22 - 00:00:53:06
John Simmerman
Aloha, everyone. E komo mai! Welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman and that is Mike Packard from SSFM in Honolulu, Hawaii. And we are going to be talking about some of the exciting things happening in the state of Hawaii. My previous hometown of Honolulu and also a little bit about the big island of Hawaii. It's really, really fun and it's great to sort of remember my time living in the islands.

00:00:53:06 - 00:01:01:21
John Simmerman
And I hope you enjoy it. Let's get right to it with Mike Packard.

00:01:01:23 - 00:01:05:14
John Simmerman
Mike Packard, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:01:05:16 - 00:01:08:15
Mike Packard
Thanks a lot for having me, John. Happy to be here.

00:01:08:18 - 00:01:12:19
John Simmerman
So once you do this, won't you just take a moment to introduce yourself?

00:01:12:21 - 00:01:33:00
Mike Packard
Yeah. So my name is Mike Hacker and I am a traffic engineer by by signature, by really wear many hats. I work for a planning engineering company based out of Honolulu, called a staff team. And I've been in Hawaii a little bit over 15 years.

00:01:33:02 - 00:01:44:02
John Simmerman
Oh, fantastic. That was going to be one of my questions is how long have you been in Hawaii? That's fantastic. So what prompted that move to Hawaii for you?

00:01:44:04 - 00:02:15:26
Mike Packard
Yeah, it's funny. I like to say that I crossed paths with Obama. I actually am from Washington, D.C., originally born and raised, grew up on Capitol Hill, went to Washington, D.C., public schools. That's where I met my now wife. We moved to Chicago for for a bit as she was doing her schooling. And as we got out of I, she finished up school there and we we found some amazing opportunities in Honolulu and made the move.

00:02:15:26 - 00:02:19:10
Mike Packard
And you know, it's been history since then.

00:02:19:13 - 00:02:24:11
John Simmerman
Fantastic. That's great. So about 15 years. So what year was that about?

00:02:24:14 - 00:02:32:29
Mike Packard
Yeah, it's about 29, 28, 29. So it was actually around that that the global the global economy was.

00:02:33:00 - 00:02:57:01
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was, I was there a little bit before you, so I made the move to Honolulu, I think it was the fall of 2004. And then by 2008 29 I was already over on the Big island. But I did start out there in, in Honolulu, in Oahu, which is on the island of Oahu, which is where you're at there.

00:02:57:03 - 00:03:01:00
John Simmerman
And I suppose I should have kicked this off by saying aloha.

00:03:01:03 - 00:03:03:26
Mike Packard
Yeah, aloha.

00:03:03:28 - 00:03:25:20
John Simmerman
And we're both wearing our Sig Zane shirts, which we have to give this designers, Zane, a little bit of love here. A fabulous designer there in Hilo, Hawaii. And, you know, it's it's rare that I get an opportunity to wear my aloha shirt. So I I'm glad you gave me that opportunity, right?

00:03:25:22 - 00:03:47:09
Mike Packard
Yeah. Well, you know, thank you, too. And I do need to celebrate that because as I moves my my work from Washington, D.C., to Chicago to here, things just became more and more relaxed. I lost the suit jacket, then I lost the tie. And then all of a sudden, all those white button options, they were gone. Frankly, I did this just for you, John.

00:03:47:09 - 00:03:58:17
Mike Packard
But. But I button this last button. I would not normally have this. It's almost too uptight for me right now, but yeah, I had to be a little more professional for the national audience.

00:03:58:20 - 00:04:20:13
John Simmerman
I appreciate international, in fact, international audience. And in fact, let's let's pop on over to the the website, too, with the for for the organization. So did you actually go to work for Essence FM right away when you first moved over, or was that a gradual change?

00:04:20:15 - 00:04:53:02
Mike Packard
You know, it's it was interesting. You know, the the my boss that that hired me. Cheryl soon was a former city and county transportation director as well as the state director. She at the time, it just started off with us as a family. She hired me straight from Chicago without a traffic transportation program at the company. She she just in her experience, having done that work, she identified the need for some more transportation engineers with with with a more of a progressive look towards things.

00:04:53:02 - 00:05:21:13
Mike Packard
And so that was it was an amazing opportunity for me. And and, you know, I've been with the company now, you know, just under that 15 years because I did take take a small break within this this fast 15 year period. And I worked with the city and county for a little over a year, which was, you know, in the grand scheme of things, is helping to move that in that same direction that, you know, that I that I have really been working on over the over my career, frankly.

00:05:21:15 - 00:05:34:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And specifically, you know, you just mentioned something there that sort of alluded to the fact that you're not just like any other transportation engineer. What do you mean by that?

00:05:34:17 - 00:06:07:17
Mike Packard
Yeah. So I like to consider myself a fly engineer and depending on the audience, I'm with, I'd be careful about admitting to being a traffic engineer because, you know, that comes with a lot of baggage and realistically overcoming that historical, you know, that in the ways that we've been doing things, not to it to a degree that that can support a livable community and really, you know, overcoming some of those those trends and past past errors.

00:06:07:17 - 00:06:31:25
Mike Packard
And so I do pride myself and, you know, continue to work both as, you know, somewhat of an advocate in my and my way and I for for a good pedestrian and bicycle design. And so the majority of of my work that I that I seek and that that I really celebrate is around the idea of complete street vision zero and and livable active streets.

00:06:31:25 - 00:07:14:02
Mike Packard
And I support that concept and and in that niche you know there's a lot of opportunity to to provide that and so you know I like to think that I am one of the different ones one of the the ones that is helping to move that that paradigm shift forward. And that's that's been a big part of my work here over the past decade, really is trying to help that paradigm shift throughout the state, really just helping to change the minds and ways that we do things here from an engineering standpoint, but also in a scope in and an outrage and just an engagement in more equitable and inclusive to make sure that we can

00:07:14:09 - 00:07:22:21
Mike Packard
help bring everyone with us and provide that context of of a livable place for everyone.

00:07:22:23 - 00:07:58:23
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned Complete streets and of course, back in 2013, about a decade ago, you know, complete streets started to hit the radar screen. I was still living in Hawaii in 2013 when this was happening. And I recognize a few of those faces in this photo. Talk a little bit about that context of, you know, coming along and and and being able to starting to embrace this concept of maybe streets should be for something more than just prioritizing the movement of automobiles.

00:07:58:26 - 00:08:46:01
Mike Packard
Yeah. And so around 2012, the city and county of Honolulu passed what's called the Complete Streets ordinance. And that, you know, really set that that requirement that that all work that we do within the public right away, you know considers the the interests and needs of all users. And you know while while ordinances and laws are not required to make these types of shots and it proved to be extremely helpful and it really that was the start of what has been over the past decade a move that paradigm shift move towards doing all things with a more context sensitive, complete streets principle based approach.

00:08:46:01 - 00:09:11:12
Mike Packard
You know those the headline Complete Streets demonstration event was was just that it was it was a closed street event based around the concepts of the second year. But then on top of that, we worked out with the city the opportunity to show a bit of a quick build idea of what falls out with landscaping, more active and welcoming streets.

00:09:11:12 - 00:09:40:00
Mike Packard
And so we presented and worked with the community and the politicians to get the support and really celebrate what could be. And this is in a community that's that's called Cockatoo Island. At the time it was it was largely industrial, all know, low volume, low density buildings. And it is what's been turned into now a very high density downtown city where where a lot of these ideas have been realized.

00:09:40:02 - 00:10:17:00
Mike Packard
You know, not not to to unlike Austin, you know, the development and the high rise and just the urbanization of of our cities as really, you know, started around these ideas. And at that point we were trying to get ahead of it and show and support what was what was possible to not just bring the cars with the density to really move that mindset, both from the developers but from the politicians and the community to to try and have this this greater appreciation as to what was possible.

00:10:17:02 - 00:11:01:18
John Simmerman
Yeah, and I see that this is an event that took place back in 2013 in May. And and really, like you said, describing it as like a bit of a sequel. We're really trying to change, you know, I like to phrase, you know, that oftentimes this is an opportunity for us to redefine what streets are for and help the community along with this, because, you know, quite frankly, and a lot of people don't realize this is in and I didn't realize this really when I made the move from Boulder, Colorado, to to Honolulu in 2004, 2005, I was just like, I was stoked you, me, and I landed a really cool job.

00:11:01:18 - 00:11:27:01
John Simmerman
I was going to be there on island, you know, I packed up my bike and I was actually I was an Ironman distance triathlon at that time. So I was entered into Ironman Canada. I was going to be training for the event and I'd be swimming and training and running and everything. I get there and I'm just like, Well, holy moly, this is just really, really rough to be running and biking on the streets.

00:11:27:04 - 00:11:35:25
John Simmerman
It's the historical context of what it was, what it felt like was it felt like this. It felt like King Street 1954.

00:11:35:27 - 00:12:06:03
Mike Packard
It really it really did. And, you know, if you were to change out those cars with with with a straight forward Tacoma, is that that's not too different from from what we see today. It's a it's a very congested car forward community society and it's you know, it's a product of the post-World War two development pattern. It looks like a lot of Midwest cities that were built around that suburban mindset at the time.

00:12:06:03 - 00:12:36:07
Mike Packard
You know, King Street has shown here was was one of those that predated that that era and was built around the streetcar and had these streetcar transit oriented development type of communities. And unfortunately that was that was abandoned soon thereafter. And that's when suburbanization and sprawl really took forward. And and this caused a lot of the degradation to to to livability and really just traveling.

00:12:36:07 - 00:13:05:16
Mike Packard
And it's a congested city if you choose to get where you're going by car. And I to and we're moving here from from Chicago was was shocked about the difficulty in cycling and and I thought my experience and biking in downtown Chicago and downtown D.C. you know prior to the to the era of of bike lanes and protected cycle tracks, I thought that I had seen it all.

00:13:05:16 - 00:13:18:16
Mike Packard
But but Hawaii, really, it was a it was a difficult place to ride. And I really do think we've made a lot of progress over the past ten, 15 years. But we also still have a lot of ways, a lot of ways to go.

00:13:18:19 - 00:13:41:09
John Simmerman
Yeah. And the other picture from 1954 that you sent along is basically the same street, but at a different angle and a different part of of this is, you know, the fact that, yes, we have this mash up of lots of people, pedestrians, lots of people on the street at the same time of having all of these motor vehicles.

00:13:41:11 - 00:14:06:17
John Simmerman
And right about the time when the Complete Streets ordinance was signed in 2012, you know, Hawaii was noted as being the highest pedestrian fatality rate per capita of any city in the United States. I mean, it is not a very flattering reality of being somebody who's walking or biking in the state of Hawaii.

00:14:06:20 - 00:14:32:03
Mike Packard
Yeah, it really you know, those those points have not been then really taken to heart and not in my opinion. And this is one of those pieces where advocates and legislators willing to, you know, in my opinion, that's that's a big piece of it. But understanding the context of where we live and how our daily habits contribute to that.

00:14:32:07 - 00:14:57:14
Mike Packard
And so, you know, I love this this photo of of what appears to be an all way crossing a Barnes That's because we have quite a few of those in Waikiki where we have our primary tourist based economy. But at the same time, thousands of people crossing the street in these and these hours, you know, this is not to too just similar to what our downtown used to be like.

00:14:57:20 - 00:15:24:19
Mike Packard
I would say that we're slowly getting back there in the way that we treat mobility. But yeah, we we we have dug ourselves into quite a hole. And it's a it's a disproportionately unfortunate that it's taking its higher toll on the elderly and our indigenous population. And native Hawaiians are at greater risk of being killed while while walking or on bikes.

00:15:24:21 - 00:15:52:09
Mike Packard
And, you know, some of these things have come out of some of the more recent provisions around the place, both here in Honolulu and on Hawai'i Island, where where you are. And, you know, that's that is a really sad and correctable action. You know, this is something that to me is is reason enough to to pursue some of these these changes and, you know, to improve life for for everyone.

00:15:52:11 - 00:16:20:00
Mike Packard
Yeah. So for your for your listeners who are more used to the Hawaii Oahu, this is what they think of you know this is this is probably one of our more well known street contacts. And even if you looking at this, unfortunately, you got your McDonald's right there and to the left, you can't see. But, you know, across the street is is the beautiful Pacific Ocean.

00:16:20:03 - 00:16:40:26
Mike Packard
You can see a one way bike lane there that's always a pedestrian crossing. But what you might not be able to pick up on is three lanes of traffic, three lanes, a one way traffic menace is fronting what is some of the most beautiful sand and ocean in the world that people come from across the world to to visit Hawaii.

00:16:40:26 - 00:17:05:20
Mike Packard
And when they think of Hawaii, Honolulu, Waikiki. This is this is really what they see. And I would suggest that that this prioritization of the movement is not necessarily what, you know, what we should be trying to get across to our visitors. You know, they come here with the ability to to walk and this concept of what paradise could be.

00:17:05:20 - 00:17:31:10
Mike Packard
I don't think anyone has ever described. Paradise is sitting in their cars surrounded by congestion on a ten lane freeway, which is only about a mile from here. And we get that equation daily, multiple times daily. So it's it's a big shift that needs to come to to make this distinction between what's possible here to increase livability.

00:17:31:12 - 00:18:02:10
John Simmerman
You know, what I like to tell people, too, that, you know, a part of the active town's origin story is, in fact, because of my time there in on Oahu and in Honolulu, because it was such a shock to my system of not being able to be in a bike friendly community. You know, I had been in Boulder and had easy access to getting out to, you know, quiet country roads where I could, you know, ride for miles and train.

00:18:02:13 - 00:18:28:17
John Simmerman
And I, you know, landed in Honolulu and I thought, oh, great, you know, summertime all year round, I'm going to be able to train. And I just I freaked out, you know, honestly, I sold my bike. I withdrew from the race and I immersed myself in the ocean. I, you know, bought a couple of surfboards. I joined the Hui Lalu paddling Club, a canoe paddling club out in the Hawaii area.

00:18:28:19 - 00:19:01:05
John Simmerman
I lived out that way. And yeah, it's it was that dark and that traumatic for me that the streets were just that hostile. And so it really shocked my system. But at the same time, I have to, you know, credit Honolulu and Hawaii for that because it really shook me awake and and made me think more deeply about the built environment, how our communities are actually designed and how that impacts healthy, active living for all of us.

00:19:01:07 - 00:19:36:16
Mike Packard
Yeah. I mean, my my story echoes yours very, very closely. I too arrived here with with my bike and super excited within the first two years I just sold it and I too traded traded my bike in for surfboards and kayaks because it just seemed safer to be out there in the water amongst the waves and the marine life than it would be to try and, you know, share the road with with a rather hostile driving environment.

00:19:36:16 - 00:20:03:12
Mike Packard
And, you know, I went to school in southern Virginia and, you know, cycling there and on the back roads, you think of some of the worst things that people have to say about, you know, rural drivers and riding. And I felt way more uncomfortable here in Honolulu. And, you know, it's examples here of the city. But on our rural roads, too, it's it's a it's it's can be a scary place.

00:20:03:14 - 00:20:26:15
Mike Packard
You know that that many people saw that. And this is kind of where we started this movement with the passage of the 2012 Complete Streets ordinance and even more recently, the update of our our bike plan and that and the very first pedestrian plan for for reasons such as this, that the island has hundreds and hundreds of miles of missing sidewalks.

00:20:26:15 - 00:20:55:19
Mike Packard
And at least in the example shown here, there's a there's a curb with some level of separates. And because too often places that there aren't those curbs and so the cars parked all over what we call the unimproved sidewalks, where, you know, the reality is that if you have any disability or difficulty in walking or, you know, rolling, you are left to navigate some pretty difficult circumstances.

00:20:55:19 - 00:21:16:24
Mike Packard
In this example here, this is a residential street, not not two blocks from the beach. And and the reality is you're you're you're taking your life somewhat in your hands with the hope that, you know, the drivers are going to respect and see you. A lot of a lot of our cars and trucks with a more lifted vantage point.

00:21:16:28 - 00:21:57:25
Mike Packard
We've all seen those images of how many kids can be stacked in front of a of a listed vehicle without being seen. And and that is a big piece of this here is you know, it's it's not just the engineering. It's it's really a broader education and really an encouragement advocacy. I think is extremely important to help continue the conversation to ensure our elected representatives are getting the full picture and things are being driven by the minority that that really values car storage above all else.

00:21:57:25 - 00:22:03:29
Mike Packard
And that's that's something that we've been trying to overcome for some time and we still have some work to do.

00:22:04:01 - 00:22:31:17
John Simmerman
I want to linger on this photo just a little bit because it really relates even to my my current neighborhood where I met now here in Austin, Texas. You know, it was platted in the 1930s, built out, you know, in the 1940s. We don't have any sidewalks in our neighborhood. And so this is our reality is we are occupying the street space whenever we walk, whenever we bike in the neighborhood.

00:22:31:20 - 00:22:55:22
John Simmerman
The good news is, is that there is a culture of people walking and biking and walking their dogs and and kids riding to school and, you know, people in mobility devices and wheelchairs, you know, rolling down the street. And so there's a culture of, you know, those of us who also drive in our neighborhood, we also know to slow down and be very, very conscientious of of that.

00:22:55:24 - 00:23:23:14
John Simmerman
And I will say that post-pandemic is even better because during the lockdown, during the pandemic, it the number of people out on our streets walking and biking and rolling and strolling increased by tenfold and those levels stayed up. And it is really helped with that culture of driving, of slowing down. Occasionally we get people who are a bit too aggressive in our environment.

00:23:23:14 - 00:23:45:16
John Simmerman
Maybe they don't know the neighborhood or whatever. Maybe they're visiting, maybe they're working, maybe they're cutting through. And it's a little bit of a stark reality because sometimes, you know, I'll take photos walking down the street and all. There'll be like ten people strewn across the street walking in different directions, etc., and maybe one car trying to make their way through.

00:23:45:18 - 00:23:53:05
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about that culture of who the streets are for in a neighborhood like this.

00:23:53:08 - 00:24:25:07
Mike Packard
Yeah, You know, that's a you make a really interesting point. This community here was was platted and built out late forties early fifties and you know the the funny context of this and you took the cross section of the road and looked at it would you know out of this angle it would resemble not too many new urbanist designs that that you know are really lifted up as being walkable, livable places to live and do a great job.

00:24:25:07 - 00:24:58:28
Mike Packard
I mean, I've done work with Peter Paul Foreman and some others who have done developments here in Hawaii that proposed this type of work. But the reality is, is that without the full and granting of the culture that people who are in the cars to both understand but respect and prioritize the vulnerable users on the street not too far from here, there's there's a couple of speed humps in succession, but they only do so much when cars are speeding.

00:24:58:28 - 00:25:30:02
Mike Packard
And between them, it's unfortunate that it has not had a broader impact and the result is that speeding is is the predominant cause of our roadway fatalities. And and we've seen that worsen since the pandemic. While I do agree with you that we do, I see more people on the street fighting, walking, whether it's for commuting or just recreational because, you know, we do have more people working from home.

00:25:30:05 - 00:25:54:23
Mike Packard
And so our peaks and our commuter traffic has changed quite a bit. However, speeding seems to have actually gotten a bit worse and and that's statewide. But, you know, we've over time, we've had some some really great leaders come over and really instill some of their energy and knowledge to help help with that paradigm shift that that I spoke to.

00:25:54:23 - 00:26:17:25
Mike Packard
This this example here is is Mark Fenton and he's been coming to Hawaii for for a little over a decade now. And this is with a R.P. Group where we're doing a walk audit of of Alamo on an area where a future light rail station. Well, we'll be going hopefully sometime in the next 5 to 10 years, depending on on how those political winds go.

00:26:17:25 - 00:26:41:24
Mike Packard
But, you know, that is been a big piece of of where we are and to get to where we are now, but also how I see us moving forward. We are an island state and and thus if we're not learning from each other, it's a long way to get some of that that type of impact. So we have been bringing over national representatives for four years now.

00:26:41:27 - 00:27:09:07
Mike Packard
Dan Burton, I believe, should be credited for for some of the work and projects we see being implemented today. 25 years ago, Dan came over. Funny enough, my my boss, Cheryl Soon, who brought me here from Chicago when she was at the city she brought down over to do some mobile walking tours and to show what was possible from a traffic calming standpoint.

00:27:09:09 - 00:27:32:07
Mike Packard
Dad's been coming back ever since, always with different hats on. He had blue zones or Livable Communities. And really what Dan has been able to to help with is is really the conversation outside of of just what the engineering piece of it looks like, looking through what a livable community could do for those that maybe don't think about it on a daily basis.

00:27:32:14 - 00:27:55:19
Mike Packard
I have you and hi, John. And we probably think about this in almost everything we do. And, you know, even when I go on vacation, I'd like to say my wife says that I have more photos of bikers and roundabouts than I do of my kids. But realistically, I see my kids every day and bikers and roundabouts. Unfortunately, I don't see enough of it in my opinion.

00:27:55:19 - 00:28:18:13
Mike Packard
And so, you know, these are these things where the local context, if you don't see it around you, then it's it's a lot harder to understand. And so I live in a community that does have more more people out on foot and on bike and and it is respected. But, you know, I get on my bike and five miles out of the town that I live in, and it is another world.

00:28:18:13 - 00:28:44:08
Mike Packard
It's a completely different world where, you know, the you know, respect for uses of the road really does change. And so it does take that that 1% to to be able to navigate roads like that because it takes a little bit of either craziness or guts to to to be able to make that happen because most people just would not put up with with that type of environment.

00:28:44:08 - 00:29:17:06
Mike Packard
And that points for what you and I mentioned, that that idea of seeing this and saying, I'm selling our bikes, but we're making small gains, it's just, you know, there's a lot of work to do that the city and county includes the entirety of the island of Oahu. And so you go from a very dense downtown Honolulu to some of the most rural parts of the North Shore where, you know, we currently are having huge, big wave swells and, you know, homes being threatened by those swells as well.

00:29:17:06 - 00:29:44:25
Mike Packard
But, you know, singular arterial roads, you know, belt road system, former former plantation rail lines, there's not too much to the transportation network. And so it's a lot of people trying to share a very, very small amount of space. And so, you know, the ability to get around in anything by car outside of Honolulu, the city can be can be rather challenging.

00:29:44:27 - 00:30:10:08
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Now, you mentioned roundabouts. We both have a love for roundabouts. This is on on the island of Hawaii. And and this is what I would, you know, consider a fairly well-designed low speed roundabout, you know, one lane in each direction, probably a design speed right around 15 miles per hour, which in my mind is exactly appropriate.

00:30:10:08 - 00:30:43:18
John Simmerman
We do want to see design speeds around 15 miles per hour. Why? Because those are less lethal speeds, you know, when we're looking at that. So when you look at the the people who are walking, you know, meeting to cross here, you see that this is a very pedestrian friendly sort of environment for them. Talk a little bit about the the state of Hawaii and how they're starting to embrace more roundabouts and and hopefully a design that is a little bit more friendly to people walking and biking.

00:30:43:20 - 00:30:55:23
John Simmerman
I can't say that I have ever heard of a Dutch style roundabout being put in where there's prioritization for people walking and biking, but maybe in the future, who knows?

00:30:55:25 - 00:31:23:01
Mike Packard
Yeah, you know, they say the sun sets last in Hawaii and sometimes some of these more progressive ideas are a little bit late to to to be implemented here. And there's pros and cons of that and takes it takes somewhat you people a little bit longer to get comfortable with with some of these changes but a roundabout so I am a huge fan a roundabout and I do think that they solve a lot of the problems that we have on our roads.

00:31:23:08 - 00:32:03:08
Mike Packard
This one here, I'm Kawaihae and downtown, who was a part of a Tiger grant that that the county of Hawaii had had one. And it really looked at reconfiguring the entirety of this. So we called Hardee Street, which passed by their civic center. And in the foreground here you can also there was a school and a library. So it brought a lot of pieces that that could and should be connectable by bike and by foot to an island that is much more rural and much less populated to show what is possible and to see what the context could look like.

00:32:03:08 - 00:32:29:29
Mike Packard
And, you know, if you go back about ten years that our state, D.O.T. had a memo on the books that said roundabouts were not a priority and it actually restricted the consideration of any multi-lane roundabout with the statement that if in the future the potential for that intersection to need to accommodate the amount of capacity that would necessitate or multi-lane roundabout, then then it could not be considered.

00:32:29:29 - 00:33:06:00
Mike Packard
And so that was a huge obstacle in getting getting beyond. And just recently I'd say in the past five years we've had heard of some of that paradigm shift really has come to fruition and, and we have roundabouts in being constructed on almost every one of the major islands right now. And we had our first multi-lane roundabout constructed on a state facility and in Kihei, Maui, I have multiple roundabouts and projects that I'm both doing in planning, design and overseeing construction.

00:33:06:03 - 00:33:32:20
Mike Packard
And while we don't have a full Dutch roundabout, as you note, I actually am overseeing the construction of, of a of a roundabout that has speed tables upon all entries and a shared use path alongside it. And so it pulled from some of those those Dutch ideas. And in the design we have read pavers to kind of reflect that Dutch mentality.

00:33:32:20 - 00:33:58:00
Mike Packard
I know Austin has done a lot with read to to identify bikeways and road to provide that prioritization. And so you know we have these these small wins this this example here was really done and thought of by the residential developer. It was a it was a development in the hills of Kihei and and that developer decided to end cycle track was appropriate here.

00:33:58:00 - 00:34:32:03
Mike Packard
And it's funny is if I if I turned around from where this photo was taken, that cycle just ends and it's a big undeveloped hillside and you know we have a lot of developable space and we have a huge housing shortage here. And so as we work with developer hours and try to integrate what it is they're doing, you know, getting some of these small wins, even if it is a cycle track to nowhere right now, getting that stuff on the ground is is a really big help and first step in making those connections.

00:34:32:03 - 00:34:58:12
Mike Packard
Because if you if you are a family that moves into here and you see that in front of you, you are now already thinking about what's possible from there. And so as you head to the bottom of the hill, where things become more dense and traffic becomes heavier and you lose that cycle track and protection and it becomes a shared shoulder, you know, that that itself might be an opportunity for a future advocate, you know, someone who sees what is possible.

00:34:58:12 - 00:35:37:07
Mike Packard
And so I have to applaud the developers that are that are doing things right from the beginning because you know that much easier to to build appropriately from the beginning than then what the majority of my work is, and that's towards retrofit. And, you know, we have we have a lot of large roads out there. And so not just from a bicycling standpoint, but from a pedestrian connectivity and safety, you're trying to get some some improvements so that pedestrians can cross the street more safely to to play towards that that high level pedestrian deaths per capita.

00:35:37:09 - 00:36:01:26
Mike Packard
We need to we need to work to prioritize. And so, you know, these these cycle tracks and these pedestrian projects are a big step towards that. But, you know, roundabouts are an important piece, in my opinion, to just help bring the speeds down. You know, if we can really control vehicular speeds and enforce the prioritization of pedestrians and people on bikes, you know, that's a big step.

00:36:02:02 - 00:36:07:05
Mike Packard
That's a big step towards, you know, making that appreciation, the process.

00:36:07:08 - 00:36:40:10
John Simmerman
And if you build more of these, then you're setting yourself up for that opportunity to do a Dutch style roundabout situation because that that's really the key thing of the Dutch style roundabout is the fact that you have these intersections intersecting with the the cycle tracks and being able to then, you know, create that low speed environment, as you just mentioned, reinforcing the fact that these need to be narrow travel lanes, bringing the speeds down, the roundabout does a really, really good job.

00:36:40:17 - 00:37:07:23
John Simmerman
You know, a roundabout for the most part is motor vehicle infrastructure. You know, for the most part, that's what it is. It's just a much, much safer form of motor vehicle infrastructure until you overlay, you know, the bike impaired facilities and then make sure that the design is such that gives that prioritization to people walking and biking and in wheelchairs and on scooters.

00:37:07:26 - 00:37:37:16
John Simmerman
Then then you are, you know, getting into a situation where you're able to prioritize a low speed environment and at the same time a very, very efficient, efficient mode of moving traffic through, but at the same time encouraging a safer, active mobility environment, which I was delighted to see this particular facility. And it reminds me a lot of the Miller neighborhood you may have had a chance to to visit that and all that.

00:37:37:16 - 00:37:41:20
John Simmerman
The two way cycle tracks that permeate throughout that entire development.

00:37:41:26 - 00:38:13:11
Mike Packard
So absolutely. And really, I see the opportunity here to to mimic and copy a lot of these great ideas that are being done elsewhere. And that's a big part of of what I try to do with my work is, is pull from what I see that that appears to be working. You know, our collaboration with with organizations such as such as natto and then helped us and you know, this is a the first protected bike lanes.

00:38:13:11 - 00:38:37:19
Mike Packard
And in this state we were put in in Honolulu along, King Street, it started as a one way cycle track and then was ultimately transitioned to the two way configuration you see out there. Now, you know, and alongside that, you'll still see five lanes of one way traffic. And so we have a lot of work to do to really make that that larger transition.

00:38:37:19 - 00:39:18:28
Mike Packard
But, you know, one of the benefits of having this this street protected bikeway is that it goes from from the east to the west along a large portion of our our denser neighborhoods. And so it carries about 1000 cyclists a day, which is a start. And it's a start that I don't see us really building on until we until we can connect some of these and really take what is the spine here and move into the communities and provide those those safe access points so that, you know, into the mountains, towards the ocean, we can really start bringing to these more protected facilities.

00:39:18:28 - 00:39:48:16
Mike Packard
And you know, that that plays off of some ideas and plans about providing a protected bike network with with separation of of these bikeways by a quarter to a half mile. And so, you know, right now the city has been moving in that direction of implementing these as best they can, where they're a part of retaining programs, temporary implementations, pilot programs like this, which are now going on almost ten years.

00:39:48:16 - 00:40:27:25
Mike Packard
And frankly, it's still somewhat looks like this, which says it's it's going to be up for reconstruction in the near future. And the hope is that when we make those next steps that we can start moving into a more permanent infrastructure, that that really brings the big levels of safety, you know, adding the the protected crossings, making it, you know, providing that buffer in a more, more physical means, you know, and even narrowing down some of what it is we're still providing for the vehicle so we can slowly start transitioning people towards a more appreciative and accepting alternative to the alcohol private.

00:40:27:25 - 00:40:29:19
Mike Packard
The alcohol transportation.

00:40:29:22 - 00:40:55:01
John Simmerman
Yeah. You just mentioned with that particular installation, the use of some of the the lighter, quicker, cheaper, quick build types of of materials. That brings me to this next photo which I had. It made me smile because again, using lighter, quicker, cheaper materials, getting some paint on the road, redefining what the space looks like, trying to bring the motor vehicle speeds down.

00:40:55:03 - 00:41:16:24
Mike Packard
Yeah. And this this example is is is a project that we worked on just towards the end of the pandemic. And and it was it was a quick build, community collaborative project. And one of the most unique pieces about it was it was in a Hawaiian homelands community and it was the first quick build project we had done in a homeland community.

00:41:17:00 - 00:41:45:16
Mike Packard
The interesting parts of that are that that the roads and the lands are owned by by that entity. And so the state and county don't have jurisdiction over them. But, you know, as I mentioned, it was our it's our indigenous population that really has suffered the worst as relates to traffic fatalities. And so the opportunity to to work with these communities in this project here was building upon us.

00:41:45:20 - 00:42:08:25
Mike Packard
For us, the school plan that they had done a couple of years before and know this this example here is a local artist from the community that that came in and and worked with the students at the adjacent school to to really do these painted fall ballots. And it was done on four different corners around what is usually called the Pico and Hawaiian Pico Meeting Center.

00:42:08:28 - 00:42:34:00
Mike Packard
It's also another word for bellybutton. It was the center of the community and this 100 year old homelands community with all the bones and all of the the network possible for it to be a great bikeable and walkable community despite not having sidewalks. What we did with this was when we moved parking out within space that had been really taken away.

00:42:34:00 - 00:43:10:12
Mike Packard
And you can see those plastic parking stops there. Those those circled the entire little bit over a half a mile center of the community where there's three schools and a community park. And so we created a delineated air and parking stop protected path around the circumference of the school. And so everyone traveling to and from school, sporting games on the weekends and even just community gatherings, they have this opportunity now to to fight and walk within this protected space, which which didn't exist previously.

00:43:10:15 - 00:43:40:11
Mike Packard
And when you think about a rural community, and this is a rather rural community still providing those opportunities and within within the right context, and that's that's a big piece of this movement was showing people that complete streets doesn't mean the same thing everywhere. It doesn't all have to be green bike lanes or flashy bike signals that that, you know, may or may not be accepted or appreciated from someone who considers the context of where they live.

00:43:40:11 - 00:43:54:11
Mike Packard
More rural and want to see that appreciated in the road work, but but still need those types of facilities that that enable safe safe walking biking and alternative to travel.

00:43:54:14 - 00:44:20:15
John Simmerman
Yeah yeah. We're going to pop on over to my hometown when I when I was living there, I was living up in Waimea, also known as Kamuela on the Big Island. And you had mentioned, like the ownership and responsibility of the roads. And this one of the interesting things about the state of Hawaii is that most of these little villages don't really have control over their roads.

00:44:20:16 - 00:44:55:13
John Simmerman
Most of their roads are either they're controlled either by, you know, unless you're right, in Honolulu, most of these villages, the roads are the responsibility of the county. And then some of the roads are considered state highways. And there's challenges there because you kind of alluded to it earlier. You know, it seemed to me when I lived there for the decade that I was there, that it seemed to me like the traffic engineers that were in charge at the state level and at the county level seem to be still stuck in the 1950s feeling like it's all about moving cars.

00:44:55:15 - 00:45:14:03
John Simmerman
And so this is an example I've run and ridden my bike on this road countless times, and these are some incremental changes to this particular road because of the high crash rates and the high fatality rates along this stretch of road.

00:45:14:05 - 00:45:52:23
Mike Packard
Yeah, and Waimea is a beautiful place. It is picturesque Hawai'i island. But one of the things that I love to showcase here is, is some of the creative ways that the county has has really taken the initiative to to make some of these changes. And the county of Hawai'i for for a long time has been doing a lot with a little on these ideas of of zig zag crossings to slow people down in the prior photo with the pedestrian hybrid beacon of the first one used in the state was connecting a school, a private school.

00:45:52:23 - 00:46:17:25
Mike Packard
The Point Pacific across from what was a longs drugs. And so students were crossing what is otherwise a state arterial here connecting you know to big harbors and so that you can see it in the photos but heavy vehicle and truck traffic travel along these roads and and being the fact that you know everything we did has to come in off a barge there.

00:46:17:26 - 00:46:45:23
Mike Packard
There are a lot of commercial vehicle movements. In a perfect world. We provide some some duplicated parallel facilities. And actually out here we have historically sought to get a bypass around the town so that the town itself can better own and honor these streets that go through the town and then take that truck heavy through traffic, put it elsewhere.

00:46:45:25 - 00:47:25:10
Mike Packard
However, the complicated thing about about building in Hawaii is is both in land ownership and complications. It's very expensive and difficult to to build, especially on Hawai'i Island. And some of the examples that that looked at routing a bypass around this town, everyone was met by an environmental obstacle that really couldn't be overcome. And so when you think of regulations trying to ensure that that we are doing things right, that too adds to one of the restraints we have from being able to build alternative facilities.

00:47:25:10 - 00:47:53:07
Mike Packard
And so doing doing more with what we have is largely the the marching orders we have here. We actually have a right now in Waimea that is with the state and is both building a new roundabout in addition to our stream protected bikeways and along the along quite high road for about a mile and a half. And this was a project that came out of our work that started as the bypass.

00:47:53:10 - 00:48:20:27
Mike Packard
The bypass road was really wanted by the community to increase the level of safety for biking, walking and drivers in the downtown. But they wanted to see these changes in a more rural context. And so pointing to two examples here, this is why look on on the north shore of a home in county of Honolulu, these ideas of seeing what biking and walking can be in a in a rural context.

00:48:20:27 - 00:48:51:26
Mike Packard
This this just happens to be my one of my sons out biking. We love to visit the North shore because of these side paths and protected bikeways and you know the ability to have these say this type of safe infrastructure alongside what is otherwise road traffic that's that's some of the additional challenges in working with communities that span everything from the more urbanized downtown Honolulu to a more rural Waialua or Waimea.

00:48:52:02 - 00:49:19:10
Mike Packard
It's the context of these types of applications while still ensuring that people have alternatives to vehicle travel because just because they're living in a more rural community, just because they're driving a truck for work or pleasure does not mean that they don't have a desire for or more active town and community. They have kids that they would rather walk to school or allow them to fight to school.

00:49:19:12 - 00:49:40:27
Mike Packard
But, you know, the refrain that we hear too much is I just don't feel safe. It's that cartoon that, you know, I didn't feel safe having Johnny walk to school. So I drove them and realistically, you are you are then part of the problem. And unfortunately, that is that paradigm shift that that we need to help to to make these greater movements.

00:49:40:27 - 00:50:14:18
Mike Packard
We we need to understand that there are alternatives. And so we start prioritizing our most vulnerable users, our our kids, our elderly people, unemployed people on bikes and reduce vehicle speeds. We're not going to achieve that. Those those greater goals. Because if you and I feel uncomfortable riding on on our roads or getting around after decades of experience riding in hostile environments, then how can we expect someone who's new to riding someone on a on a cruise or bike?

00:50:14:20 - 00:50:25:02
Mike Packard
My kids, my, my, my wife, my in-laws, you know, how do I expect to convince them to walk or bike if I myself don't feel comfortable doing it?

00:50:25:04 - 00:50:43:02
John Simmerman
Yeah, Yeah. Now, earlier you sort of alluded to the fact that when you go on vacation, when you travel, you're or your wife is teasing you because you're always snapping photos and everything. So, yeah, I don't remember. I'm not sure. When you were in Japan, were you guys traveling? Was this a vacation?

00:50:43:04 - 00:51:15:18
Mike Packard
It was. It was our it was our big post COVID. We we had not gotten to travel, which with my wife and I love to do. We're not going to travel in three years. And so we took this opportunity to to go with our family of five. I have three smaller kids and we traveled for about three weeks and throughout Japan we started in Tokyo, stopped in Kyoto is Osaka, and some of the other smaller, smaller, more more rural communities.

00:51:15:18 - 00:51:56:26
Mike Packard
And this example here from Osaka was really quintessential of what I saw there and was just blown away by the commonality of biking there. It just was not a big thing. And, you know, these examples of some of the shared more traffic calm streets, I got to understand that these are more recent changes in Japan. But, you know, even prior to this, Osaka has a 25% commuter bike share and that is on par with some of the highest percentage commuter trains in the US.

00:51:56:26 - 00:52:26:05
Mike Packard
And this is not too far from some of the more high, high aspiring places in the Netherlands and elsewhere that are doing things on a great scale. I had understood that that John Dale had done some work here in Osaka and some of the treatments and stuff that I saw in these roads was it could have been out of anywhere in Europe and really amazing shared traffic, calm streets.

00:52:26:08 - 00:53:00:09
Mike Packard
They were beautiful, but just outside of those, just at the end of the street was a ten lane arterial and I saw just as many people biking there. And that's that's like 25% of bike share. That's it's really it's a really impressive percentage. And you know, those those people on bikes were it was a cross of of half riding on the sidewalks, wide sidewalks, you know often 12 to 15 feet wide on the on the arterial roads but a fair amount of them just just sharing the road with other traffic.

00:53:00:09 - 00:53:29:07
Mike Packard
And, you know, the cars in Japan are a lot smaller than they are here in the US. But that didn't overcome the fact that it still feels rather treacherous to me. And, you know, I've been talking with with people that have both visited, worked in Japan and locals. I asked them, what is it? What is that? What is it that gets this this feeling of safety or or acceptance for use of bike?

00:53:29:07 - 00:54:08:10
Mike Packard
And the term that is used in Japan is come on Jimmy. And and really it's that it's that perseverance and the Japanese people have that in spades and it was amazing to just see a mom on a bike with her kids riding taking laying in the center of of an arterial travel way and really no people respected and drove around them so that that is that paradigm shift where it was it was amazing to me that you could still have ten lane roads, which I would never point to as, as a good idea or something to aspire to.

00:54:08:13 - 00:54:27:18
Mike Packard
Yet they were making it work. And so maybe there are different ways of doing this. But, you know, even with all of what Japan had and the successes that they had had garnered and they still acknowledge the need for more, and that's where you saw some of those impressive, you know, shared streets. And you can't see it here.

00:54:27:18 - 00:55:20:20
Mike Packard
But this is a side path, protected bikeway through the center of it. But there's such a high pedestrian population and high concentration of people in Japan, Tokyo in particular, that there's just a lot of people. And so bridging people is quite, quite an impressive feat. They have amazing train, train transportation there that is incredibly efficient and fast and can get to anywhere you want to go throughout the country that that combinations of of biking and walking and walking and trains and biking and trains which the Dutch point to all the time of that being that that perfect combination it really shows in Japan where, you know, you have 5050 to 60% people commuting by train.

00:55:20:20 - 00:55:59:16
Mike Packard
But but of those 25% who are taking their bikes to the train, where were the majority of others were walking. And so if biking wasn't the primary center source of their transportation, it was a part of it. And so it really is ingrained in the culture there. And I was so impressed by what they were doing. And and just as a as a society, pieces of it that that we can really start to copy and bring over because the Japanese influence on Hawaii historically but even currently in our in our tourism and our visitors it's a very close connection.

00:55:59:16 - 00:56:10:26
Mike Packard
So this is that idea of this is should not be such a paradigm change. We can see it elsewhere and places that that we visit and we have visited.

00:56:10:26 - 00:56:36:21
John Simmerman
So yeah, you know, I'm lingering on this photo simply because it brings back memories of when I was there in Hiroshima and and basically echoing what you were saying is that people would ride their bike to the train station and there were literally hundreds of bikes parked at the train station. Get on the on the train, go into into Hiroshima, get off.

00:56:36:25 - 00:57:28:16
John Simmerman
And many of them had a second bike parked there and they get on their bike and they would go. But then the side streets, the sidewalks looked like this, really ultra wide sidewalks and and this, this ballet, this human ballet that you would see between the pedestrians, the people on bikes and their everybody's going any which way. And it really, I think exemplified for me how magical it is when we are traveling closer to humans, speed is that we're able to make all these little micro adjustments and you're able to actually move efficiently, you know, thousands of people through a space where if you tried to like put everybody into into cars, individual cars, or

00:57:28:16 - 00:57:52:28
John Simmerman
maybe even doubling them up or maybe even having four people in a car, you still have gridlock. You simply can't move as many people as you can when you're traveling closer to human speed walking or biking. And that's why I love this photo so much. As we've got this girl, she's on her bike. She's able to navigate quite slowly through this environment of pedestrians.

00:57:52:28 - 00:58:25:05
John Simmerman
And I see this all the time in the Netherlands as well, is when when we do see the mixing of modes and when we have shared spaces, you know, at slow cycling speeds, you know, you just bring that down and you're able to make eye contact and little little movements and and really body language too. And we we can actually move thousands and thousands more people than we could if we all tried to put them into individual hermetically sealed metal boxes.

00:58:25:08 - 00:58:58:14
Mike Packard
Oh, it's just not possible in a in a country of of size and population. But but even so, there there are so many parts of what they're doing in the Netherlands and Japan through those those mixes of just shared use that that we can duplicate in so many other ways in what we do. And you know, Japan did it done a lot with our transportation network building out the train system that that supports those those greater distances of travel.

00:58:58:17 - 00:59:24:05
Mike Packard
And they just built things on scale. I wish I had a person standing next to this, but this was a serious little fire engine I've ever seen. And it pulled out into what was a big shared plaza, one that is just packed with people at nighttime because it is rather hot there during the day in the summer. But, you know, building things to scale in a more human size scale.

00:59:24:05 - 00:59:49:03
Mike Packard
And you know, what I also didn't see a lot of in Japan is these spandex clad, clad cyclists on on carbon frame bikes. And I'm not going to lie if that's me on the weekends, because that's what's needed to still navigate many of our roads. What you saw were were slow traveling cruiser bikes, women in dresses, elderly kids off by themselves.

00:59:49:03 - 01:00:13:29
Mike Packard
I mean I'm sure we've all seen those photos of of Japanese children traveling by themselves on trains. I saw it all over. It's amazing. And I'd like to hope that that I would would do that with my own children, should I live in that type of environment. But, you know, that's that's the bigger paradigm shift that we really need on a national scale to make those changes.

01:00:14:01 - 01:00:25:10
Mike Packard
Because unless we're out there doing it ourselves, how can we how can we point to to what's possible and and what's comfortable and supportive? So, yeah, it's really impressive.

01:00:25:13 - 01:00:49:02
John Simmerman
Good stuff. Good stuff, too closes out. You've had this opportunity to to, you know, travel this year, you know, to Japan. You've had the opportunity to to, you know, travel here to to to Austin recently when you get back home, when you get back to the islands and you look at the challenges in facing you and and you see that.

01:00:49:02 - 01:01:18:15
John Simmerman
Yes, they're they're making progress slowly in their own sort of Hawaiian way. But what are you jazzed about? What do you what do you excited about from this travel and that you bring back home there and and hope, you know, that they kind of will resonate with so that we can continue to keep that momentum and maybe even accelerate the momentum because quite honestly, there's should be a sense of urgency for Hawaii.

01:01:18:18 - 01:01:53:04
John Simmerman
Climate change. You know, global warming is is devastating. I mean, we saw the horrific events happening in Lahaina there in Maui. We were just we were showing some images from Kihei just up the road from Lahaina. You know, the level of vulnerability that the state has, the islands have is is extreme. Do you get the sense, you know, what gives you hope that that, you know, some of these messages, these learnings that you're seeing from from traveling will resonate with with your your your homeland your your adopted home when there.

01:01:53:07 - 01:02:17:13
Mike Packard
Is is absolutely my adopted homeland. And I am always coming back from from travel energized to apply some of what I have seen and gotten to experience to to my lived experience and work here in Hawaii. And and, you know, one of the biggest reasons I take these photos is to be able to show others that I didn't have that opportunity to travel to where I was.

01:02:17:19 - 01:02:45:01
Mike Packard
You know what what other people and other other cultures are doing. And and that's trying to expand us beyond looking at a Copenhagen or an Amsterdam or even a Portland, where no individuals may not be able to see themselves in those photos. You know, it's hard to to suggest that that Honolulu is ever going to be a New York City or a Tokyo.

01:02:45:01 - 01:03:07:10
Mike Packard
But you know what we can do? We can do aspects of of what we see here in Portland. And, you know, I really see and take a lot of these examples that I see when I when I travel and do my best to try and help apply them on a project by project basis, but also just putting them out there to to my, you know, my, my friends and peers at the counties and state.

01:03:07:10 - 01:03:28:00
Mike Packard
So they have that in their toolbox as well. I mean, you mentioned some of the some of the challenges that that Hawai'i is facing right here, right now. But furthermore, as we get into the future and it wasn't a couple of years ago that the home on on the north shore of the lagoon literally fell into the ocean.

01:03:28:00 - 01:03:49:22
Mike Packard
And that is a the active ongoing threat. And right now is we're getting huge waves hitting our north shores right now. That's that's a threat that those homeowners face yearly. And then it's something and it's a big problem that has been staring us right in the face for a very long time. And I have to admit, I don't I don't think that we've been acting with the urgency that's needed.

01:03:49:24 - 01:04:18:19
Mike Packard
And too often the disassociation between our transportation priorities and really what it is we need do to to help move us towards a more sustainable and resilient community. You know, it takes us moving the needle on on all levels. It's not going to be solved by by solar panels and wind turbines, which we do need. And we are making leaps and bounds in the energy sector.

01:04:18:19 - 01:04:49:10
Mike Packard
But but we need to get beyond that. Our transportation impacts to the environment are higher than most of any other sector we have there. So to disassociate how we choose to travel with the impacts of sea level rise and wildfires, that you know, these are things that that need to be acknowledge and the the connections need to made that the horrific events of that just occurred in West Maui are really fresh in everyone's mind.

01:04:49:10 - 01:05:19:20
Mike Packard
And, you know, this idea of what the future of West Maui, Lahaina and really the entirety of Hawaii, you know, wildfires are not new to Hawaii. They are just something that has never had such a severe impact as they did to the town of Lahaina. But those threats exist on every island across our state. At the time of those fires and devastation, there were ongoing fires on every island.

01:05:19:23 - 01:05:58:28
Mike Packard
And so we need to think towards this resiliency, emergency response and how active transportation does play a role. And that's something that, you know, as respectfully as I can do. I like to help move the conversations in the direction of understanding how greenways conserve in the, you know, as a sort of emergency access that can serve as firebreaks, that can serve as the redundancy that that we don't have on a lot of our transportation networks due to the limitations both on the land ownership and environmental aspects.

01:05:58:28 - 01:06:22:05
Mike Packard
You know, there's a lot of complications to building the true redundancy that we need in some of these communities. And so there are more straightforward ways to get there. If we think outside the box. And so, you know, my hope and as we move forward, it's going to be a long, a long process for the people of Lahaina to to build back their community.

01:06:22:07 - 01:06:52:02
Mike Packard
But I just hope that there's enough foresight during that process so that we can build a more resilient community and one that that's respectful of the people that that were there and where the place comes from. You know, really going back to honoring the land and the people is a is a common refrain across Hawai'i. And in something that I believe, I believe is important to the success and future of our community.

01:06:52:05 - 01:07:02:11
John Simmerman
Yeah, Yeah, very well. So, Mike, this has been an absolute joy and pleasure. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate you doing this.

01:07:02:13 - 01:07:23:16
Mike Packard
Thank you, John. It is so great to see you. And I can't wait to visit Austin again soon to be able to ride some of those new bikeways and see some of those great projects going on in your your hometown. And obviously, I would love to see you back out here again. We can go out there and explore some of that, some of the changes that that we are making.

01:07:23:19 - 01:07:44:13
John Simmerman
Hey, let's hey, let's make that happen. Yeah, I'm long overdue for a return trip, so. Yeah, I definitely need to make it home to my my adopted home there for a decade of the state of Hawaii. And, yeah, that's long overdue. So again, mahalo New Hilo for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

01:07:44:16 - 01:07:45:28
Mike Packard
Mileage on.

01:07:46:01 - 01:08:03:14
John Simmerman
Mahalo New Hilo. Thank you so very much for watching this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. And if it did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and ring that notification spell.

01:08:03:16 - 01:08:34:26
John Simmerman
And if you're enjoying this content, please consider supporting my efforts out on Patreon. My Patreon members actually do get access to all of this content early and ad free, which so great. So you can become one of the active towns ambassadors. You can also help support the effort by buying things from the active town store. We've got some really cool water and streets are for people t shirts out there, as well as making a donation to the nonprofit and even buying me a coffee through the Buy Me a Coffee program.

01:08:34:29 - 01:09:01:25
John Simmerman
Again, thank you so much for tuning in. It really means a lot to me. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers. And again sending a huge thank you to all my active towns. Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patron Buy me a coffee YouTube super thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the active town store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated.

01:09:01:27 - 01:09:03:04
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much.