Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:08 - 00:00:23:17
Kelly Clifton
How do we tell a story? What is the point of this? How are we drawing people in? So whether the audience are fellow academics or other other academics outside of transportation or to the public. I think the thing about transportation that is compelling through this narrative is, again, everyone has a lived experience trying to navigate the world and to move around in it.

00:00:23:20 - 00:00:35:01
Kelly Clifton
So we naturally have a way to draw people in and relate to people's experiences, which may not be true of other scientific, scientific of research.

00:00:35:03 - 00:00:56:29
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, welcome to the Active Towns Channel. I'm John Simmerman. And that is Professor Kelly Clifton from the University of British Columbia. And we are going to be talking about a creative project that she was involved with, really bringing the work of land use and transportation into the world of comics. It's a fun one. I hope you enjoy it.

00:00:56:29 - 00:01:06:00
John Simmerman
Thank you so much for tuning in. Let's get right to it. With Professor Kelly Clifton.

00:01:06:02 - 00:01:10:26
John Simmerman
Kelly Clifton, it's an absolute pleasure having you on the Active Tales podcast. Welcome.

00:01:10:28 - 00:01:13:29
Kelly Clifton
Thank you so much. Hi, It's really nice to be here.

00:01:14:02 - 00:01:21:05
John Simmerman
So, Kelly, I love giving my guests just a quick opportunity to introduce themselves. So who is Kelly?

00:01:21:08 - 00:01:49:03
Kelly Clifton
Great. Thank you. Well, I am a professor of community and regional planning at the University of British Columbia. My research focuses on the interactions between people's transportation decisions and the built environment. And I have a real interest in visual communication. So how we as academics can do a better job of getting our research in the hands of the public and in the hands of decision makers?

00:01:49:05 - 00:01:57:19
John Simmerman
Fantastic. That's great. So when you say visual communication, what do you mean by that?

00:01:57:22 - 00:02:27:05
Kelly Clifton
Well, I think that there's a lot of power in imagery, and I've spent most of my life writing academic papers, which I'm pretty sure don't get in the hands of a lot of people, or at least not the public. And so I think there's there's I've always been interested in art and and just visual images. And I think that there's a lot of power there to make some of the work that we do more accessible to the public.

00:02:27:07 - 00:02:43:04
Kelly Clifton
So we're here today to talk about my comic book, but I also think visual imagery could be things like film, other kinds of narrative art. I'm working with a student now on some art as a way to talk about urban planning issues.

00:02:43:06 - 00:03:22:14
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic. And in fact, that's exactly what caught my attention out on LinkedIn. It was I can't remember exactly when it was might have been back in in January when this particular article came out and I the piqued my interest immediately moving from cars to people a comic about transportation and land use how brilliant and I guess I guess one of the things I wanted to ask you is, you know, when we think of comic books, oftentimes we think of children.

00:03:22:16 - 00:03:32:14
John Simmerman
But in reality, there's a it's it's more nuanced than that. It's it's not as straightforward as just, you know, comics, kids.

00:03:32:17 - 00:04:08:14
Kelly Clifton
Absolutely. I and before I started this project, I always knew to comics, actually, I was never an avid comics reader. And one of the things I learned in this process is, one, how complicated a good comic can be. So again, the combination of words and visual, there's a whole theory of comics and comics communication, and there's a lot of subtleties in terms of how imagery is placed and the type of images where the text is and then what you chew, what which of those two you choose to communicate ideas with.

00:04:08:17 - 00:04:25:24
Kelly Clifton
And so they become a very powerful tool for adults. And I think more importantly, they are fun. So reading my academic papers might not be so fun, but reading a comic is much more fun and engaging and takes a shorter amount of time.

00:04:25:26 - 00:04:52:25
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And in fact, if we go back over to this this particular article and we kind of zoom in on on the graphic, this is a nice, good look at the entire cover page or the cover of the actual comic. And to talk a little bit about that inspiration of of talking about this topic in this format.

00:04:52:28 - 00:05:22:13
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. So the inspiration, I guess, for the comic itself came from actually something I was doing for fun during COVID. So I've always kind of played around with art and drawing and painting. I'm not very good at it, but I enjoy it. And so and during COVID, I, I took a comic book class for fun. So again, at that point, I was never a very avid comic reader.

00:05:22:16 - 00:05:49:23
Kelly Clifton
I didn't know that much about comics. And at the same time, with my job, I was trying to find ways of thinking about alternative ways to communicate and get the public's hands on the kinds of ideas, not just mine, but other other researchers. So I took this class, and the instructor was Ryan Alexander Tanner, who is a professional comic artist and illustrator.

00:05:49:25 - 00:06:21:08
Kelly Clifton
And in the first day of the class, he started talking about the theory of comics, which again was a surprise to me. There's a theory of comics, and he showed a graphic from Ah, Crumb, and he's a he specializes in nonfiction comics, and he showed this this graphic from our crumb. That is a I think it's a short history of America, and it's a 16 panel visual with with no words.

00:06:21:10 - 00:06:49:11
Kelly Clifton
Hmm. And he said, how many words would it take to describe what's happening in this this comic? And again, I was taking this class not with my academic hat on, but as in my non-work pursuits. And I said, well, I teach that class in transportation and land use, and it takes at least about ten or 11 weeks to get through all the things that have happened in this comic, in this one succinct visual.

00:06:49:13 - 00:07:21:26
Kelly Clifton
And that really sort of blew my mind and got me hooked on comics as maybe something that I would want to explore as part of my work. And so I have a long collaboration with Christie Currence, who's at the University of Arizona, and we had been doing work on Generation. And so so we we started thinking about, well, how might we use this format to communicate some of the ideas that we've been working on for the last ten years?

00:07:21:29 - 00:07:32:05
John Simmerman
Yeah. Akash Fantastic. I mean, did he have any idea that you were in, in the class or this is just like on the nose spot on for you?

00:07:32:07 - 00:07:51:25
Kelly Clifton
Yeah, he had, he had no idea, but it led to a very fruitful collaboration because in one of the breakouts, I was supposed to be working on my own comic, which is it was actually like a remake of something my brother and I did is this kid's. And I said, Hey, I want to do this project for myself.

00:07:51:25 - 00:08:26:00
Kelly Clifton
But I have another idea. What if we pursued some grant funding opportunities through the national Institute of Transportation in Communities, which is housed at Portland State University? And I said, What if we pursued some funding to make a comic about transportation and land use? And it was a new endeavor for him, and he was very excited. And Christie and I applied for the grant with Ryan as our editor, along with Susan Kirtley, who is a professor of English and the director of comic studies at Portland State University.

00:08:26:01 - 00:08:31:11
Kelly Clifton
And we got it. So it was a year long collaboration.

00:08:31:13 - 00:08:40:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, what a what a magnificent panel. Do you know what year this is that that our crumb did this particular one?

00:08:40:18 - 00:08:46:26
Kelly Clifton
It was in the early seventies. I think I can find it, but I know it was in the early seventies.

00:08:46:26 - 00:09:18:05
John Simmerman
Probably actually at the bottom of the panel, but it's just a little blurred. And I couldn't couldn't actually see it. But you look at the the the that last panel in the cars look like they're from the seventies. But what but what a you know again in just this one you know panel being Abe or a series of panels being able to see oh my gosh yeah this is like a brief history of, you know, the United States and land use and the challenges and the disaster.

00:09:18:07 - 00:09:45:18
John Simmerman
And, you know, and part of also, I think is very, very interesting, too, is that the what ends up, you know, coming out in in the actual, you know, comic that you put together is is sort of communicating some of these frustrations that people have and being able to try to navigate their space. And I think that this is really, really interesting.

00:09:45:19 - 00:09:54:02
John Simmerman
If you were to if you were to like, say who who's who's your audience for for the for the comic book.

00:09:54:04 - 00:10:37:26
Kelly Clifton
Great question. I think the audience is really the public who's more interested in understanding these issues. But I also think it's a tool for engagement and pedagogy. So if if someone's taking an undergraduate or a graduate introductory class, this is a great succinct way to sort of set the stage for a more sophisticated literature and reading. It's for advocacy groups that want to try again to also set the stage for some of the complicated issues that we're trying to navigate in cities as we are transition, trying to transition to more sustaining, viable, healthful and equitable modes.

00:10:37:28 - 00:11:02:00
Kelly Clifton
So it allows us to understand a little bit about how we got here. But also, you know, what are some of the tools that have enabled and specifically the tools around transportation and land development and the process, the planning process that has led to a very auto oriented environment. And then the last or the comic is divided into three sections.

00:11:02:00 - 00:11:26:27
Kelly Clifton
And the first you kind of get a history. What is the process that we use to plan for transportation and land development? And then the last piece is trying to understand where some of the conflict and trade offs that happen with people as we're trying to shift away from auto oriented development. And people really feel the pinch point because we have is it takes a long time to make this transition.

00:11:27:00 - 00:11:51:27
John Simmerman
Right. And these are a couple of images that you sent over about the creative process and being able to kind of make your way towards what will eventually be the the final product. And in just a couple of panels, I mean, this is this is something that is very recognizable from from the actual final product. But it looks like these are the early stages.

00:11:51:28 - 00:11:53:16
John Simmerman
Is that correct?

00:11:53:18 - 00:12:18:16
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. So the process was an iterative one. We had a very interdisciplinary team. So Christy and I are not comic artists, are not comic narrators or editors. We understood the transportation angle and the points that we wanted to make, or at least we thought we understood the points that we wanted to make. And so Susan Kirtley helped with thinking about narrative.

00:12:18:16 - 00:12:47:26
Kelly Clifton
And then we had a graduate student who is walking goal as who is an MFA in studio art at Portland State University. And so all of the artwork and illustrations are walking. And so they didn't necessarily know about transportation systems, although they have a lived experience, as we all do in transportation systems. And so the process really started with Christy and I are trying to talk about our ideas.

00:12:47:29 - 00:13:12:27
Kelly Clifton
And then on their end, what sparks interest, what would be a a good way to tell this story. And then Joaquin had to put it all into some visual format. And so if I can say this on your podcast and Ryan will write as you will appreciate, this is we start with a shitty first draft, meaning nothing is nothing is perfect.

00:13:12:27 - 00:13:21:26
Kelly Clifton
We don't want the artist to go through and have very detailed fine artwork if we're really going to change it. Right. Yeah.

00:13:21:28 - 00:13:48:08
John Simmerman
Yeah. And that, that kind of makes sense too. And that's that's one of the advice advices to, to, to authors is you know, you know that first draft that's a shitty first draft just get something out there. It's you're, you're working from that. I want to kind of go back a little bit to kind of where it said a little bit more of the foundation of, you know, your work, what you're really doing.

00:13:48:08 - 00:14:19:26
John Simmerman
And then I want to dive into a couple of images that you've passed to my way about the actual comic book and and really some fascinating things that I saw in there in terms of why comics are so powerful. But first, let's let's talk a little bit about sustainable urban and urban planning and engineering research and in really kind of, you know, what we're talking about here and, you know, kind of highlighting here transportation and land development.

00:14:19:28 - 00:14:48:19
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. So the work that I've been doing with Christy Cummins for a long time is again, looking at trying to examine where are some of the barriers that engineering standards and planning processes place on us moving away from the automobile and expanding our transportation options and so we had a long term collaboration with the City of Portland, the Portland Bureau of Transportation, in looking at their process and how can we improve it.

00:14:48:21 - 00:15:14:01
Kelly Clifton
And they helped fund a lot of our research along with the Caltrans, the California Department of Transportation. So one of the things that we were looking at here was an engineering and planning tool called the Institute of Transportation Engineers Trip Generation Handbook and Manual. And this is a compilation of data about trip making, vehicle trip, making by different land uses.

00:15:14:03 - 00:15:39:19
Kelly Clifton
And so it's used all over North America and even Australia. And it's I think part of the reason why a lot of our suburban development in particular looks the same everywhere. And so as you're is you're developing an individual parcel or your or a lot, you use this handbook to evaluate what the transportation impacts of that new development will be on the system.

00:15:39:21 - 00:16:07:29
Kelly Clifton
And then cities often have a set of mitigations and fees that are charged for to developers to try to mitigate that. So one one problem is that this handbook is only looking at vehicle trips, has only historically looked at Greenfield or suburban development and doesn't have a lot of sophisticated controls or even simple controls for us to look at development in different contexts.

00:16:07:29 - 00:16:35:29
Kelly Clifton
So some of our research in Portland, Oregon, looked at things like convenience stores, which are pretty standard size and format. But if you use the handbook as it as it was anyway, it would assume that a convenience store located in the central city or in a nearby neighborhood would generate the same number of automobile trips as something in the suburbs along a major arterial or highway.

00:16:36:01 - 00:17:07:19
Kelly Clifton
And so we we collected a lot of data to demonstrate how far off that this can be, and in many cases over predicts automobile use. Sometimes by 1,000%. But if those cities are relying on this data source. And then the other thing is the mitigations that happen when when you assume more automobile traffic, some of those mitigation as being widening lanes, adding more traffic lights, adding driveways, adding more parking, all of those things accommodate the car.

00:17:07:22 - 00:17:28:02
Kelly Clifton
And so even if these environments wouldn't have predicted so many automobile trips, the kinds of mitigation are not predictive, but it resulted in so many automobile trips, the kind of mitigations that we tend to do in urban planning, then make it less likely that people will take a road other than driving.

00:17:28:04 - 00:18:00:08
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. And I love this graphic here of the new reverse traffic pyramid where we're really looking at trying to put a fine point on it that, you know, vehicles should be down here. You know, you know, sort of, you know, let's have the you know, the real bulk of of our transportation trips being done through active travel, which makes sense when we consider that, you know, a large number of trips are inherently walkable, bikeable, suitable, etc..

00:18:00:10 - 00:18:02:09
Kelly Clifton
So absolutely, yeah.

00:18:02:11 - 00:18:39:06
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. It's fantastic. So one of the things that that, you know, kind of caught my attention was especially since I'm, you know, operating here in the video and visual media myself, is that that contrast between the comic and in using this as a medium for for illustration and education and you know that art crime panel was just fantastic on this and then comparing that to other forms and you brought up the comparison of the research papers.

00:18:39:06 - 00:19:02:20
John Simmerman
Yeah, this is much more interesting than the necessarily the research paper, but you can take that data and that information from the research paper and bring it to life through the comic. But then the other thing that was very interesting and I'll try to find this panel in here in your presentation was about that compare and contrast, you know, to a video or movie.

00:19:02:22 - 00:19:08:27
John Simmerman
Talk a little bit about how how powerful that is, and I'll try to find that that visual.

00:19:08:29 - 00:19:41:29
Kelly Clifton
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the advantages of comics busy we besides being fun and besides being a combination of visual and text is that there's this idea of of comics being permanent. And so what does that mean exactly? Well, it means that the reader decides how quickly they want to take in information. And so, again, if you are listening to one of my lectures or watching a film, you get the information at the pace that I, I give it to you or that the film gives it to you.

00:19:42:01 - 00:20:05:25
Kelly Clifton
And books are also permanent. So text is permanent. So it means but but a book doesn't allow the visual in the same way that a comic. So it makes the idea that you can spend as much time on a page or on a panel as you'd like. You can go back. You decide as the reader how you take in information.

00:20:05:27 - 00:20:33:03
Kelly Clifton
And I think that that's that's one of the advantages of comics. You know, another idea in comic theory is the power of the gutter. So the space between panels and that's where your mind makes the transition, the passage of time or the passage of ideas or the transition from one character or another happens in the gutter. That blank space between the graphics and I was talking about that.

00:20:33:03 - 00:20:57:08
Kelly Clifton
Why that in in why is that is so powerful as a learning tool because your brain actually has to do the work to think about those transitions. And I was I was talking about this in my class recently, and one of the students said, Oh, that's just like when you stop talking and ask a question. And we have this long awkward silence in the class, right?

00:20:57:11 - 00:21:10:03
Kelly Clifton
Oh, yeah. And only to talk less, but yes. Yeah, yeah. So there is some similar, similar ideas that we use in pedagogy and teaching that come forward in the graphic form in comics.

00:21:10:05 - 00:21:19:03
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I think that I think what you're referring to is, is also this here is that correct?

00:21:19:05 - 00:21:19:23
Kelly Clifton
That's right.

00:21:19:23 - 00:21:20:19
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah.

00:21:20:21 - 00:21:21:17
Kelly Clifton
Yeah, yeah.

00:21:21:20 - 00:21:26:04
John Simmerman
Yeah. Fantastic. I never thought of it that way before. I think.

00:21:26:05 - 00:21:26:19
Kelly Clifton
Maybe.

00:21:26:19 - 00:21:31:00
John Simmerman
Yeah, this makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. That's really fascinating.

00:21:31:02 - 00:21:37:19
Kelly Clifton
Well, that's was part of that mind blowing moment in the first day of class that Ryan Alexander Tanner gave me.

00:21:37:24 - 00:21:55:23
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's some other really interesting things that you, that you do, you've included in here and it talks a little bit about some of these bring, bring this to life because I looked at this and I'm like, oh wow, yeah. This is, this is quite fascinating.

00:21:55:26 - 00:22:25:05
Kelly Clifton
Yeah this is a comic by a Canadian comic artist and transportation engineer and planner Ryan Martinson, and he has done a series of comics for the Canadian Institute of Transportation Engineers. And so I use this in a recent presentation because I think it really talks about those transitions from panel to panel. And so in this particular example, just the difference that an environment might feel the same exact environment from day to night.

00:22:25:08 - 00:22:44:13
Kelly Clifton
And if we don't think about nighttime environments and what we can do to sort of activate spaces at nighttime, then then they're ignored and underutilized. And so I really like this comic because in a very simple three three panel comic, he illustrates this so very nicely and beautifully.

00:22:44:15 - 00:23:14:27
John Simmerman
Yeah, this also brought up an image or in my mind the example of, you know, we're striving to create all ages and abilities facilities and, you know, oftentimes what might seem, you know, all smiley and bright and cheery for for one person might seem more like the second panel and specifically thinking about like underpasses and tunnels, you know, for women that might be that middle panel that might be really scary.

00:23:14:27 - 00:23:39:07
John Simmerman
And it might be, you know, something very, very dark. And yet, you know, you know, maybe, you know, for other people, there might be, oh, yeah, no, this is fine and cheery and so that that third panel of being able to shine some light on it or let's bring some let's make some changes to the actual design of this facility so that it can be bright and cheery for everybody.

00:23:39:10 - 00:24:07:18
Kelly Clifton
Absolutely. And I think, again, this visual gets to these ideas about emotion and feelings that the images can portray in a fun way and a really powerful way. So you bring up differences that women may feel or older adults versus youth and people with different mobility limitations. So again, comics can be a powerful tool to show representation, but also to communicate real differences.

00:24:07:20 - 00:24:15:24
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah, which is exactly what this panel is talking about, is, you know, the differences and representation.

00:24:15:27 - 00:24:29:16
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. And again, if you're using real images from real life, it's sometimes hard to show environments or what we would like to achieve in planning. And so comics can can help do that.

00:24:29:18 - 00:24:55:08
John Simmerman
Well, what's interesting, too, I'm glad you mentioned that, is that, you know, maybe comics can better represent some, you know, the different people. Like, for instance, in the background here, you can see someone is actually with a walker, you know, and as is needing a walker there. But since it's a graphic versus a photo, maybe someone can relate to that a little bit more.

00:24:55:08 - 00:25:14:09
John Simmerman
Because if it's a photo, too, to your point, maybe if that person doesn't quite look like them, they're like, Oh yeah, that's not me. I, I can't see that in there. So I don't know, maybe that's just my interpretation of that is it might be better or easier to recognize or identify with somebody.

00:25:14:12 - 00:25:16:10
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. And empathize.

00:25:16:12 - 00:25:17:22
John Simmerman
So yes, yeah, yeah.

00:25:17:23 - 00:25:45:06
Kelly Clifton
Yeah, for sure. And I think another point that in this panel is that translation to other languages. So we translated the comic into Spanish. There are some challenges in doing that. So when you've made the comic, you have sort of fixed sizes for the the text bubbles and the dialog. But again, one of the things so I was I was making it when we started this project, I was living in Portland, Oregon.

00:25:45:09 - 00:26:09:01
Kelly Clifton
Kristi was living in Tucson, Arizona, very, very different built environment. So thinking about how we have that representation of not just people but also places in the comic is also important. So again, one of the things that we think about in in planning is density. And density can also be a four letter word when you're talking with community groups.

00:26:09:03 - 00:26:34:19
Kelly Clifton
And so how you can show density isn't, you know, doubling of density is often just adding a one floor to the built environment. Right? Right. And so I think that that particularly when we talk about the built environment, that comics and visuals can have a way of explaining these things that really can ground this in reality for people, even though we're not in reality where are actually in a comic.

00:26:34:21 - 00:26:52:11
John Simmerman
Yeah, you're actually in a comic. And so, you know, at the end of the day, you, you, you, you get to, you know, having a product that's out there and how how are people accessing the information or accessing the comic?

00:26:52:18 - 00:27:19:26
Kelly Clifton
Yeah, great question. So you can download the comic from the national Institute of Transportation in Communities. It's in a digital format that you can read online. It's also meant to be shared. So we're hoping that people pass it around that community groups, advocacy groups, planning agencies posted on their own websites. So it's very it's meant to be open access.

00:27:19:28 - 00:27:47:05
Kelly Clifton
There's also a link where people can download a hi res version and make print copy. So now we did make limited run of print copy in Spanish and English and have been disseminating those slowly. And I'm not sure if this is still offered by the National Institute of Transportation and Communities, but there was a link on their website where you could request or print copy if you wanted one.

00:27:47:07 - 00:27:59:08
John Simmerman
Okay. Okay. We'll we'll we'll check that out. We'll try to figure out if that's still available and we'll be sure to include in the show notes for this episode those links as well as in the video description down below.

00:27:59:08 - 00:28:08:21
Kelly Clifton
And you can also download those from my own research Lab website Super Lab dot Space. So there's a link there to download them as well.

00:28:08:23 - 00:28:15:13
John Simmerman
Yeah, and I just clicked on this and so we do see the version in Spanish as well.

00:28:15:16 - 00:28:41:21
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. So we worked with a Ph.D. student at Portland State University in Urban Studies in planning, Gabrielle Quinones Zambrano, and he is from Puerto Rico. And we worked together on the translation and that was a lot of fun and also surprisingly difficult because he kept asking me, what version of Spanish would you like? Do you want more formal language, which we spend a lot of time talking about?

00:28:41:21 - 00:28:45:16
Kelly Clifton
Which word is the right word? Right, Right. Yeah, yeah.

00:28:45:18 - 00:28:50:05
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. What is the actual meaning?

00:28:50:07 - 00:28:52:01
Kelly Clifton
Yeah, exactly.

00:28:52:04 - 00:29:04:01
John Simmerman
So excellent. So one of the things you want. Let's go ahead and just address a little bit of, of, of this stage in terms of what your what you're looking at here.

00:29:04:04 - 00:29:28:24
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. So this is actually before we finalize the comics, are we going to draft out to some folks that were faculty in transportation as well as practitioners and we sent them an early draft and said, we have four, four questions for you. You know, do we make any mistakes in the information that we are conveying? So is everything accurate?

00:29:28:26 - 00:29:55:25
Kelly Clifton
Are we communicating the ideas that you think are the most essential? Because again, there's an economy of words and an economy of of images. Is it understandable? And then most important question, did they enjoy reading it? And we actually got a lot of feedback and we incorporated that feedback, simplified some things where things were maybe more confusing or they didn't understand an image or the other text was too long winded.

00:29:55:27 - 00:30:04:07
Kelly Clifton
We made a lot of changes in response to that feedback and it was very helpful. So this happened before the final version.

00:30:04:09 - 00:30:06:26
John Simmerman
Wow, that's fantastic.

00:30:06:28 - 00:30:08:26
Kelly Clifton
We also had a community of Sorry, go ahead.

00:30:08:29 - 00:30:21:15
John Simmerman
I was just going to say, I mean, it's like it's so tempting to just kind of do things in a vacuum and say, yeah, it makes sense. But yeah, this is that's an incredibly important step.

00:30:21:17 - 00:30:45:29
Kelly Clifton
Well, as an academic, we're used to peer review, right? So I think, you know, the thing for, for me in this process that was probably most difficult and probably for Christie to want to speak for her is that the language that we use in our academic communication is so nuanced. We are always talking about the limitations. What can we draw from this conclusion?

00:30:45:29 - 00:31:22:24
Kelly Clifton
What can't we draw? And so it's part of the reason why this is, I think, difficult for non academics to read the work. And where we were really challenged in this work is what is it that we want to say? And the public is not going to hang on for all the asterisks and footnotes and yeah, but so it really it, we needed this four foot feedback from the technical advisory committee to make sure that we weren't generalizing too much or saying things in grand platitudes that that maybe they that the profession wasn't uncomfortable was uncomfortable with.

00:31:22:26 - 00:31:46:28
John Simmerman
Yeah. And you might have been about to say this, but did you also have like laypeople also have a chance to to look at it and and be able to make sure that you d you know kind of like got rid of you know because if it's just the technical people maybe, you know a lot of the acronyms and a lot of the you know, insider baseball kind of language slipped through.

00:31:47:00 - 00:32:11:15
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. So we actually had a community advisory committee, actually two community advisory committees, one in Tucson and one in Portland, Oregon. One was from a particular neighborhood group recruited from a neighborhood group, and then the other was from an advocacy group in Tucson that sent out the comic to their constituents. And we had an online survey so people could give us feedback there.

00:32:11:15 - 00:32:33:26
Kelly Clifton
And the questions that we asked them were very similar. So did they understand the comic? Was it free of jargon and sort of technical language? Did they see themselves in it? So this back to this issue of representation, So was this an experience that they could relate to? And then it and then again, back to the most important question, did they like it?

00:32:33:26 - 00:32:36:03
Kelly Clifton
Did they enjoy it? Was it fun to read? Right.

00:32:36:06 - 00:32:43:23
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I probably should have went to the next slide because there it is, the Community Advisory Committee.

00:32:43:25 - 00:32:53:00
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. Yeah. So we got some valuable feedback there and incorporated into the final result.

00:32:53:02 - 00:33:02:14
John Simmerman
What were the most salient learnings and things that you know came through for you in this process?

00:33:02:17 - 00:33:24:26
Kelly Clifton
I think, you know, I'm hoping this isn't my last comic, but it was my first one. And so I think the learning curve for everyone was high and I think one of the things that I said earlier is just, you know, as an academic, we we use a lot of jargon and then we have a lot of caveats and we try tend to speak very carefully about our research.

00:33:24:28 - 00:33:53:20
Kelly Clifton
And that can be very confusing. And so comics can actually help with some of this nuance. So it's not like we had to gloss over some of the those caveats and limitations. We could actually try to incorporate them into the comic. And again, the use of visuals carry some of the weight of that communication. The other thing is interdisciplinary work, which is something that I have tried to do my entire career is is very difficult, difficult to do.

00:33:53:20 - 00:34:17:29
Kelly Clifton
It's not like the just because the will is there doesn't make it any less difficult. So we all learn from each other. I think having Susan currently there to help with the storytelling, to have Ryan there as the master editor, like none of us could have completed this project without the other. So if one of us had dropped out, we couldn't have done this work.

00:34:18:02 - 00:34:40:29
Kelly Clifton
I guess the other thing that I was thinking about here is, is also how I had to let go of some pieces. So working interdisciplinary in an interdisciplinary framework meant that, you know, the art is all working. Goal is this art. Of course, we had the opportunity to comment and make changes and so on. But stylistically, is it my style of drawing?

00:34:40:29 - 00:34:50:27
Kelly Clifton
No, it's his style of drawing. So also just part of teamwork means, you know, having to make compromises and yeah, and to use a transportation analogy, stay in my lane.

00:34:50:29 - 00:35:12:15
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is, which is kind of your, your, your graphic here is like yeah, it's, it's challenging but it's rewarding and yeah, there you go. Stay in your lane. Is is this something that you will go back to and use as a a future medium?

00:35:12:17 - 00:35:36:17
Kelly Clifton
I hope so. So if I were to try to make the comic myself, it would be a very slow process because I am not a comic artist. But now that I am located at the University of British Columbia, I'm interested in doing this not just for my research, but other research within urban planning and engineering. I'm also very keen to collaborate, you know, to get the band back together.

00:35:36:17 - 00:35:46:25
Kelly Clifton
So we spent all this time learning about each other and learning how we work. And so I would really treasure the opportunity to work with Ryan and Susan again. And Kristie, of course.

00:35:46:28 - 00:36:10:22
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. I'm going to pull up to the free to download and share the QR code here for folks. And again, I'll also I will actually also have the links in the show notes, so you can certainly click on that link as well. But if you feel so inclined, you can shoot your your cell phone camera app this or your iPad or whatever.

00:36:10:25 - 00:36:34:00
John Simmerman
And to be able to do that. But it's I'm fascinated by this, you know, from the storytelling angle of this, because this is one of the biggest challenges that we have. And I have a background in science as well, you know, in in physiology, human physiology. And, you know, we end up talking in these jargon, a wonky sort of language.

00:36:34:00 - 00:37:10:13
John Simmerman
And it's really, really difficult for for people. It's just like, Oh, right, sorry. So you have to d jargon stuff, but then you also have to have tell compelling narrative and story. And is that something that you're also kind of looking at in terms of, you know, your future work is how do we take the data and the stuff that is is so necessary from a research perspective and from of we need to go in this direction perspective, but then be able to translate that into narrative.

00:37:10:16 - 00:37:41:12
Kelly Clifton
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's changed the way I'm thinking about writing. So even writing in academic articles. So, you know, how do we tell a story? What is the point of this? How are we drawing people in? So whether the audience are fellow academics or other other academics outside of transportation or to the public I think the thing about transportation that is compelling for this narrative is, again, everyone has a lived experience trying to navigate the world and to move around in it.

00:37:41:15 - 00:37:52:20
Kelly Clifton
So we naturally have a way to draw people in and relate to people's experiences, which may not be true of other scientific kinds of research.

00:37:52:22 - 00:38:03:25
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. You know, is there anything that we haven't yet mentioned about this project or your work that you want to leave the audience with?

00:38:03:28 - 00:38:26:15
Kelly Clifton
I think we've talked about a lot of a lot of it. So the process of making the comic the inspiration for the comic, I guess one other aspect that we haven't talked about is that there are a lot of resources for people to get out and make their own comics. So comics are having a moment right now, and it's not just formal comics, there's zines, there's they're easy to make, they're fun to make.

00:38:26:15 - 00:38:56:00
Kelly Clifton
You don't have to be an expert draftsman to make a comic. So walking obviously is a is a very talented artist. But comics can be made with simple stick figures. They're very important communication tools, and the art doesn't have to be sophisticated to get the point across. So. So I would like to see comics, you know, not just made by academics and professional comic artists, but the general public.

00:38:56:03 - 00:39:33:03
John Simmerman
Yeah, it makes me wonder too, in looking at we're actually scrolling through folks. We're actually scrolling through the actual comic right here. It also makes me wonder whether I can start helping with some of the, you know, the imagery, because that's kind of what what we're seeing with some of the the urbanism I interfaces is, is we're typing in, you know, a descriptor and then it's coming up with opportunities and that's one of the things when I interviewed Adam Katz with Better Streets, the AI is that's kind of what was happening.

00:39:33:03 - 00:39:57:22
John Simmerman
And so this could end up being an interesting combination of being able to type in something and then get an imagery and then actually then do what we have here, which is a panels, you know, and have the know kind of what you were saying you were trying to describe. And that gets to your point is maybe you don't have to be a talented graphic artist.

00:39:57:25 - 00:40:03:13
John Simmerman
You know, you might be able to, you know, let the computer do a little bit of that work in the future.

00:40:03:16 - 00:40:33:05
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. And of course, this is an evolving field with lots of limitations and concerns and so on, but also a lot of power. And I think the one of the concerns would be about representation. So if it's learning from content on the web and we know that transportation and just web content in general tends to be dominated by white, cisgender, male able bodied voices.

00:40:33:08 - 00:40:43:24
Kelly Clifton
And so how do we how do we counter that with the AI and make sure that we're we're using comics for what we want them to do, which is increased representation.

00:40:43:27 - 00:40:54:23
John Simmerman
Right. And a great and a great place for me to pause on this where, you know, the center panel here, you know, is a panel where we go, it looks like we do have a good diversity of representation here.

00:40:54:26 - 00:41:25:15
Kelly Clifton
Yeah, but I also think to your point about not needing to create the art yourself, I mean, collage is a, you know, a thing that we often did when we were kids and it's now I mean, it has always been an important art form, but, you know, cutting, cutting images out of magazines and pasting it juxtaposed those kinds of images are another way to make comics or make the visuals that are easy for people to do.

00:41:25:17 - 00:41:31:07
Kelly Clifton
I see, assuming again that the representation and the imagery is out there in the first place.

00:41:31:09 - 00:41:43:26
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. Fantastic. So fascinating this is great of what is the, the best way for for folks to connect with you.

00:41:43:28 - 00:42:09:17
Kelly Clifton
Yeah. Well, so the best way to connect with me is through my professional email at the University of British Columbia in the School of Community and Regional Planning. So you have my email there, and then I have a website where my research is, and you can also download the comic at Super Lab Space and yeah, yeah. And then on LinkedIn so you can reach out to me.

00:42:09:19 - 00:42:11:26
Kelly Clifton
Kelly J. Clifton on LinkedIn.

00:42:11:29 - 00:42:13:25
John Simmerman
And that's how we get connected.

00:42:13:27 - 00:42:16:19
Kelly Clifton
Yeah, absolutely.

00:42:16:22 - 00:42:22:19
John Simmerman
And you're still waiting and waiting because yeah.

00:42:22:22 - 00:42:25:05
Kelly Clifton
Well, aren't we all laid? Yeah.

00:42:25:07 - 00:42:27:00
John Simmerman
We are. We are. Yeah.

00:42:27:05 - 00:42:46:20
Kelly Clifton
I think this is the thing about the topic itself, right? So cities are really changing, transportation modes are changing, they're changing all the time. And so, you know, how can we on one hand play catch up to remedy some of the ills of the past? Well, at the same time, modes are changing, cities are changing and the population is changing.

00:42:46:25 - 00:42:47:22
Kelly Clifton
So.

00:42:47:24 - 00:42:54:22
John Simmerman
Yes, fantastic. Kelly, thank you so much. This has been an absolute joy and pleasure having you on the active Towns podcast.

00:42:54:25 - 00:42:59:06
Kelly Clifton
Same. I really enjoyed being here and I look forward to talking again.

00:42:59:09 - 00:43:15:10
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Kelly Clifton and if you did, please remember, give it a thumbs up, leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and ring the notifications below.

00:43:15:12 - 00:43:39:26
John Simmerman
And if you are enjoying the Active Towns podcast and the Towns channel, please consider supporting my efforts on Patreon. Buy me a coffee. You can also do it via YouTube. Super. Thanks right below. As well as making donations to the nonprofit and buying things from the active town store, every little bit helps is much appreciated. Thank you all so much for tuning in.

00:43:40:03 - 00:44:03:07
John Simmerman
Until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers. And again sending a huge thank you to all my active tones. Ambassadors supporting the channel on Patron Buy me a coffee YouTube Super. Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and purchasing things from the active town store, every little bit adds up and it's much appreciated.

00:44:03:09 - 00:44:04:16
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much.