Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited

00:00:00:07 - 00:00:34:25
John Simmerman
Sometimes we are our own worst enemy as humans. Sometimes we, we head towards the easy way. And, in my keynote presentation, I often talk about the fact that as humans, we are capable of doing extraordinary things, you know, from a physical abilities perspective. We can we can run marathons. We can do all these things. We can ride or bike, you know, 60km and etc. but at the same time, we're hardwired as humans to have what I call a lazy gene to take the easy way.

00:00:34:27 - 00:01:01:28
John Simmerman
And so to to your point of like, listen to your employees. If your employees are saying, well, we want active mobility, we want the ability to to, to, you know, help us, you know, help accommodate us and being able to ride our bikes, you know, to to this, you know, corporate campus in this, this business park, etc.. But what if the employees, because they have that lazy gene are saying, no, what we really want is more car parking.

00:01:01:28 - 00:01:24:26
John Simmerman
We want you to subsidize this even more. It sounds like what you're saying is that the corporations could, should sort of stand up to the, you know, the inclination, the natural inclination of us humans to be lazy and to take the easy way and say, trust us, it's good for, you know, we're not going to provide more free parking.

00:01:24:26 - 00:01:28:01
John Simmerman
No, we're not going to subsidize taking the car.

00:01:28:04 - 00:01:52:11
Pete Nouwen
I know that that, the car company did that with, here within the Netherlands. They put a carrot in front of, in front of their employees, instead of the, instead of limiting the, their, their kilometer compensation through the, the tax free maximum, what many employee employee, what many employers do is they, they raise I think they raise it up to $0.40.

00:01:52:14 - 00:02:01:22
Pete Nouwen
That was a very, very, very big carrot for people to say, well bloody hell no, I'm, I'm going to bike that. That's where the money is.

00:02:01:24 - 00:02:30:22
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, welcome to the Active Towns channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Peter Nouwen from ‘s-Hertogenbosch in the Netherlands. And we're going to be talking a little bit about strategies that employers can have to get sort of happier employees, more productive employees through active mobility, and, discussing some rather interesting and peculiar incentives that some corporations are giving over there to encourage people to drive motor vehicles.

00:02:30:25 - 00:02:48:20
John Simmerman
Say it is it. So anyways, before we get to that, I just want to say, if you're enjoying this content here on the active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. You can join Active Towns right down below here on YouTube. Just click on the join button down below, as well as just navigate over to Active towns.org.

00:02:48:24 - 00:03:08:04
John Simmerman
Click on the support tab at the top of the page, and there's several different options, including making a donation to the nonprofit as well as becoming a Patreon supporter. Patrons do get early and and free access to all my video content. Okay, let's get right to it with Pete.

00:03:08:06 - 00:03:12:18
John Simmerman
Peter, now, and thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

00:03:12:20 - 00:03:13:27
Pete Nouwen
Thank you. Pete.

00:03:13:27 - 00:03:21:11
John Simmerman
What I love having my guests do is to say a few words about who the heck they are. So, please introduce yourself about 30s.

00:03:21:17 - 00:03:48:07
Pete Nouwen
Yeah, my name is Pete. I'm a health and safety guy. Mostly the annoying type of health and safety guy who's nagging. I have about 20 years of experience, and I'm working with, HubSpot brand of the great company and ain't open. But that's enough about me. Let's, let's get started. And then, talk about, how to get to work and not in the dark.

00:03:48:09 - 00:04:20:17
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, we have some similar background in the sense that, the first 15 years of my career, I worked in the corporate environment. I worked for very large fortune 500 companies, including IBM and Motorola, etc., and I was part of the health and safety team, for those those companies, I did a fair amount of injury prevention, but mostly what I was working with was, health care cost containment efforts and disease prevention.

00:04:20:20 - 00:04:45:09
John Simmerman
And specifically, I was building out, corporate fitness facilities, gyms on huge, massive corporate campuses. And, and we're gonna in a little bit, we'll play a classic video, or at least the intro of a classic video from Jason Slaughter with Not Just Bikes, the one that he did on the gym of life. And so we'll talk a little bit about that.

00:04:45:11 - 00:05:01:23
John Simmerman
Yeah. But you and I, and you said 20 plus years of experience doing this work I'm at, I'm now this year I'm 60 years old. And so I'm now at 35 years of experience, in doing this, which is just mind boggling to be aware at a time. Go.

00:05:01:25 - 00:05:24:08
Pete Nouwen
Yeah. And and I'm only, I'm only 44, but, yeah. And 20 plus years, with, with health and safety is that I think I just always stress that in that direction. And that's where it started. So I was always taking care of people. And, and, people came to me with always questions, okay, how should I, how should we do that?

00:05:24:08 - 00:05:27:02
Pete Nouwen
And then in the end, it was, how should we do this safely?

00:05:27:04 - 00:05:28:16
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah.

00:05:28:18 - 00:05:36:29
Pete Nouwen
And the way with your life experience, be prepared to be interviewed because most of, health and safety work is is listening.

00:05:37:01 - 00:05:38:29
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

00:05:38:29 - 00:05:41:09
Pete Nouwen
We you might get a sore throat.

00:05:41:11 - 00:05:47:29
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Well, we've established that you're you're Dutch and you're in the Netherlands. What city are you located in?

00:05:48:01 - 00:05:53:10
Pete Nouwen
I am located in Seattle, which is the same city as marked for being from Bicycle Dutch.

00:05:53:12 - 00:06:16:04
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, I love that city. It's it's such a delightful, delightful city. And, he's been so gracious. Taking me on a couple of tours, around the fine city, and it's fantastic. And, of course, he was originally, you know, from Utrecht, and I, you know, spent lots of time hanging out there, and lots of time hanging out and some of the other big cities, in the Netherlands.

00:06:16:04 - 00:06:40:15
John Simmerman
And we'll talk a little bit about that whole dynamic and, and maybe, you know, dispel some myths about, you know, the Dutch mobility systems and some of the things that are out there. Share, share with us a little bit about what you're most passionate about in terms of these topics. You mentioned active mobility and being able to get to work into other meaningful destinations.

00:06:40:17 - 00:06:48:11
John Simmerman
What what part of that is really, really got you, you know, passionate and riled up and excited about.

00:06:48:14 - 00:07:34:07
Pete Nouwen
But the most important thing is that that, there's a there's a couple of things going on where I, love driving the car. I just hate standing still. A car, which is a point that I make, purpose and, in it, especially in the, in the commuting, in the, in the, in the commuting area of, of the Netherlands, that standing still your car is very easy and idling and just burning fuel and, a couple of things that I found out when, when I was, commuting by bike to work is also that I, that that I'm happier, more effective as an, as an employee.

00:07:34:09 - 00:08:11:16
Pete Nouwen
That's, that's from a personal perspective. And then when you are a health safety professional, you start thinking about way, how did that happen? So is that just me or is it more general and what's going on here? Especially when I was, when I hit some, some, some hands, work experience by, by getting into a burnout, I, recovered by, taking up small jobs and, biking there.

00:08:11:19 - 00:08:18:02
Pete Nouwen
That's what got my lungs back in order. And, this is why I got back on the back on track.

00:08:18:06 - 00:08:43:23
John Simmerman
So. Yeah, it's it's fascinating that you that you mentioned that that, you know, you started to see that impact with yourself, which brings up one of your favorite, videos and one of my favorite videos, from Jason, which we, alluded to earlier, which, of course is his The Gym of Life videos. Let's play the first 30s or so of of his classic video, because I just love it.

00:08:43:23 - 00:09:04:27
John Simmerman
And, and he and I had talked a little bit about this, even when I interviewed him, I can't remember if it was the first time I interviewed him or the second time, but, you know, talking about how our built environment can really help facilitate just living a healthy, active lifestyle and not necessarily having to go to the gym and do a workout.

00:09:04:27 - 00:09:09:11
John Simmerman
So let's let's play the first 30s or so of, Jason.

00:09:09:14 - 00:09:35:12
Jason Slaughter
The other day I cycled 14km, and the next day, 27. And the day after that I walked three kilometers. None of this was particularly notable, and I didn't really consider it exercise either, is just part of living in a walkable, bikeable city, what I like to call the gym of life.

00:09:35:14 - 00:09:51:25
John Simmerman
So we'll turn the volume down on on Jason's narration. We'll just let his his video sort of play in the background for a little bit. We can always turn the volume back up, later, but we want to encourage people to go. If you haven't already watched this particular video, from Jason with Not Just Bikes, make sure that you head over and do that.

00:09:52:03 - 00:10:05:06
John Simmerman
He does such a great job, and he's got a great sense of humor with that. Tell me what resonated with you about this particular video in the work that you do, and some of the things that you're passionate about?

00:10:05:09 - 00:10:26:23
Pete Nouwen
Well, the most important thing that, that I found out is that, equal eating to a Jason. Jason says as I, I just hate going to the gym, and I love food. And, here in the center, we have great food. We have a there there's a lot of restaurants with, with great food. And I love cooking.

00:10:26:26 - 00:10:38:11
Pete Nouwen
But I'm also one of those guys who who gets big in the stomach very easily. So I have to do something about that. And,

00:10:38:13 - 00:11:05:16
Pete Nouwen
The other thing is that, I personally hate paying for, for idling my, my car. So let's start with that also. And also, wasting my time standing in, standing in traffic, which is it would involve each individual taking up the example here. So if we put that together, then I'm going to, do try to, to, commute in a different way.

00:11:05:16 - 00:11:30:18
Pete Nouwen
And the, the main part is that I'm going to take, one car off the road again, and I know my, on my health, which is, which is, which is pretty much a benefit for, for me personally, but I think the thing that that I found very, very, very complicated is that that does not really resonate with, with, with employer.

00:11:30:20 - 00:11:40:21
Pete Nouwen
So I do not know, maybe you, you maybe you can tell me but more about that. In, in, in that part, you have a lot more experience than I do.

00:11:40:23 - 00:12:21:08
John Simmerman
Well, I can certainly speak to the sort of the U.S., the American sort of perspective, from an employer's perspective, the whole reason why I had a 15 year career is that many large employers have a vested interest to try to make their employees as healthy and safe as possible, because they are on the hook for the medical bills associated with, that, most large employers are self-insured, which means every single heart attack that happens, every single cancer that happens, high blood pressure, diabetes, etc., etc., etc., hits the bottom line of their profitability so they have a vested interest, for that.

00:12:21:10 - 00:12:45:01
John Simmerman
Of course, in, in the Netherlands, it's a little bit more complicated and a little bit more, nuanced than that. But there's also plenty of other reasons why employers want to have healthy, happy, more productive employees. And, you know, certainly active mobility helps reinforce that, which is some of the themes that, that Jason does, address here.

00:12:45:03 - 00:13:20:25
Pete Nouwen
Yes, it is. And then I can, I can put a bridge, to, to another video that I, that I found very interesting from, from Wendy Suzuki. She, she one more time mentioned, that, as a professor of neuroscience in she, he, in a TedTalk, she talks about her, her, her own story from, being a lab rat and being, being the weakest person on, on a, on a holiday, which she hadn't had in, in years.

00:13:20:28 - 00:13:51:04
Pete Nouwen
And, an astronaut going to, going to the gym, learning from, from a lab rat into a gym rat. And, also, finding out that the, the, that boring work easier and my scientific mind things. Okay, how how does that work? Because I don't do scientific work, but I do it usually when I'm just sitting down.

00:13:51:07 - 00:14:18:18
Pete Nouwen
I'm, I have to do a lot of, a lot of thinking and a lot of fast thinking. And how does that work so. Well? I bought her book, Healthy Brain, Happy Life. I read it, and, in there, she, she, she lays out the, the ways to, to to actually, what actually happens with your brain if you are going to the gym or if you're going to the gym.

00:14:18:18 - 00:14:45:05
Pete Nouwen
And, one thing that that does happen is you get more attentive immediately. That's that's result one. As soon as you have to have drop one drop of sweat, you are more attentive. You are you have a better, better mood. And you are in, you are you're getting into your you're getting your, you're having a better and better focus.

00:14:45:07 - 00:14:54:16
Pete Nouwen
So even you, you switch modes just once. It will have an effect. But a knock on effect, if you do it every day is even bigger.

00:14:54:18 - 00:15:48:14
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. And what's interesting too, is that we're sort of making that connection between activity and exercise, which is the whole point that Jason's, you know, making in this video is that, you know, he is realizing that the necessity to try to manufacture activity workouts is being taken up by just being able to get physical activity modest, moderate, you know, sort of physical activity daily by going about one's life versus having to manufacture an artificial situation similar to like what I used to create by building fitness centers and health clubs on corporate campuses, encouraging people to come in to do that.

00:15:48:16 - 00:16:22:03
John Simmerman
And that's a very artificial thing. I mean, are from throughout the entire length of the human body. We were naturally active just going about trying to survive, you know, for literally for tens of thousands of years. We, you know, our range was right around ten kilometers or more, when we were hunter gatherers. I mean, we would have to just get out and do stuff and so this, this reality that we see on screen right now, in the video is really foreign to our biology.

00:16:22:03 - 00:16:44:02
John Simmerman
Our biology has not evolved enough in the last hundred and 20 years, to be so sedentary, to be driving away or driving, you know, from place to place, only to sit in an office someplace. And so this is a very, very, foreign thing. It's a biological mismatch.

00:16:44:04 - 00:17:31:07
Pete Nouwen
And it's not good not just for, but for our brains either, especially as white collar workers, and especially if you're a white collar worker, you are expensive, and you need to do stuff. The lovely point, that when Suzuki makes and, in her, in her TEDx talk and her address is that, and I don't know exactly where she specified it, but she did some, some tests on, on, on, on on subjects because she has her own neuro lab and a neurological laboratory, a laboratory where you can put, people into, and, an MRI and afterwards people were, and she did tests on them, and

00:17:31:07 - 00:18:06:14
Pete Nouwen
people were more productive immediately after doing exercise. And it held on to, for, for about 3 to 4 hours, I think, because they didn't extend the, the, the tests on there any further, which was mind blowing because that's, that is actually the moment that you get in at 8:00, you are productive. And as soon as you start saying, have a lunch walk and you go, you go out again to, and you go out again, have some exercise.

00:18:06:14 - 00:18:08:23
Pete Nouwen
Remember the rest of the afternoon.

00:18:08:26 - 00:18:15:13
John Simmerman
I'm just going to ask you, are you familiar with the doctor, John Rady and, the book spark?

00:18:15:15 - 00:18:17:23
Pete Nouwen
No, I haven't heard of it. What's the what's it about?

00:18:17:23 - 00:18:45:29
John Simmerman
Yeah. You're going to. Yeah. Especially since you like Wendy's work. I think you're really going to enjoy that spark. He really gets into the brain science. And that connection between physical activity and what's happening at the brain level, especially in the hippocampus. And so, I think you'll find that, very, very interesting. And he specifically looks at the impact of, of physical activity with children.

00:18:45:29 - 00:19:28:03
John Simmerman
So that's one of the areas of, of emphasis as of study and in the book, spark, really looking at the positive benefits of children getting physical activity in on a daily basis, especially on their way to school or early once they get to school doing something physically active. And, and it's funny when when we see the visual on screen right now, the difference between a pizza and a runner runner is, is that, you know, we'll runner if you want to translate that, you know, for, for, for English, you know, the difference between just going about your daily life getting to places versus a sports cyclist.

00:19:28:05 - 00:19:58:18
John Simmerman
But what's really interesting in that book about spark and the relevance that I see to Dutch society is the number of children that get to school by getting on their bike or walking to school, versus getting picked up by a bus, a school bus, or worse. In the United States, being delivered to the doorstep, doorstep to doorstep by, by a an SUV by a car.

00:19:58:20 - 00:20:10:26
Pete Nouwen
Yeah. Can I make a guess on those results? Because my guess is that they, that the, the, kids who are actively and who work actively have a, a have a more developed brain.

00:20:11:02 - 00:20:42:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, absolutely. And also or suffer less negative consequences from, from attention or in some of the things, the exact same things that you mentioned. Now we're looking at a scene here with just tons and tons of people walking in these environments. And I documented this in Utrecht, this past year, in 2024, just the massive number of Dutch, employees going out for a walk during lunch.

00:20:42:14 - 00:21:05:16
John Simmerman
Now, I made the wrong assumption that they were actually walking to go get lunch in the from the from the office tower buildings where right near the central station. And they were walking towards the, historic city center and where there's lots of restaurants and cafes and coffee shops and eating the right kind of coffee. Not the wrong kind of go.

00:21:05:18 - 00:21:29:16
John Simmerman
Yeah. And I was correct in saying, oh, no, no, they they're probably not going to eat lunch. They're probably just going to get some physical activity in because it's encouraged by their employee employers to go ahead and go get, get out, get some, get some fresh air, get some exercise in. You'll be more productive when you get back.

00:21:29:18 - 00:21:33:00
John Simmerman
That's a really cool cultural thing to see indeed.

00:21:33:00 - 00:22:10:17
Pete Nouwen
But, I personally think that that employers, could be even more, more proactive in that, in that perspective. There's a lot of salt left on the table there. I don't know if that's right, but it just works. And there's a lot of low hanging fruit that you could, just take off, because the, the, the the problem with, with the those very healthy brains of, of kids and students that are over and coming right out of school is, the first thing they are going to get is, is, and get a company car and they are just sitting and if and I don't know if you

00:22:10:17 - 00:22:44:26
Pete Nouwen
have heard that one of the phrases about sitting and it's sitting is pretty much like the new smoking. So you will go if you're going to provide your, your, your employer, your employee with, with a company car, all they do, all they're doing is sitting. And I don't know if that's, if, if, if we can do that in the future, but, one of the, one of the lovely things that I did with, with myself as a guinea pig is to, to track, my, my, my own activity and my own burn calories.

00:22:44:28 - 00:23:08:08
Pete Nouwen
And how many steps that I'm taking between, the minute and then during working hours, I with different models, with different different models, plans of, of transport when I'm biking to work the work, I'm not walking. So I'm not taking so many steps. Only into until until 6:00. After that, I'm free to do whatever I want.

00:23:08:08 - 00:23:31:29
Pete Nouwen
So I want to go for a run. I will probably burn more calories that day. But one of the things that that, that I saw is this as soon as I take my car and also if I am working from home, then I'm not walking. I'm not walking anymore because I'm working and, I'm not taking those steps in.

00:23:31:29 - 00:24:11:24
Pete Nouwen
And if, if I am, and, if I am, doesn't that also correlates with, with the amount of, of, calories that I burn, which is very, you know, it's like, you know, in the, in the, in just over 2000, it's like nothing. So that's, and that's problematic. The, but as soon as I'm, I'm getting out, I'm, getting that 15 minute sprint towards the station, this and, sit in a train for, for about half an hour and then again and on the other end, I'm getting that other 15 minutes, a 15 minute sprint, then, and at the end of the day, I'm going back

00:24:11:24 - 00:24:48:03
Pete Nouwen
that way. Then I'm easily getting into, into the 3000 calories a day and not going to the gym. So I'm not paying for a gym membership. And at the end of the day, I'm home with my family. The, the only thing that I do is commuting, and that's very valuable. The second thing that that also happens is as soon as I am pumping in that, that oxygen while, while going to the well, moving to the station and also taking and also making the sprints and taking those steps because in a, in a and especially in this referral base station, you need to walk a lot.

00:24:48:03 - 00:24:59:09
Pete Nouwen
It's big. It's not it's not Shinjuku, but it's not, it's not very well. It's it's not very small either.

00:24:59:11 - 00:25:00:05
John Simmerman
Right. Yeah.

00:25:00:06 - 00:25:28:12
Pete Nouwen
Yeah. Any platform. So. Well if you are as platform 20 and bikes and you have to get, one of those lovely of a feet at, platform one, then you have to get there. And that's what, that's also what happens. But if I go by car, I just walk outside here, I step in, I get in, I, drive for a couple of minutes.

00:25:28:12 - 00:26:15:08
Pete Nouwen
I will, join the queue pretty much, which is very frustrating. And, after about, 45 minutes and, then I'm going to be in, in, in sweat for, work and, and, I'm getting I'm putting in many, many, many I'm getting in and, and a lot of fewer steps then, then I would want to also if I'm going to, to, to guinea pig myself, then I would say that as soon as I'm going to do something active, then I will really put in the work and I'm doing that before I'm going to work.

00:26:15:11 - 00:26:39:02
Pete Nouwen
And if we correlate that with, research of, of, of when you say Zuki, then you should then she says, especially when, in the, in, in her book and also in, in the other talks and podcasts that she, that she did, for instance, with, with with the you were in lab she says the, the there she says that you should work out before work because it's more effective.

00:26:39:03 - 00:26:52:22
Pete Nouwen
You can work more effective if you if you work out before work. Okay. Who's got the time to go to the gym first and, and, and and work afterward. Well, go to the gym of life.

00:26:52:24 - 00:27:28:08
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. To to, to use Jason's phrase once again, the visual that I have, running on screen right now is, is actually just a really delightful ride that I love doing from the village of Horton, into, the, the city center of Utrecht. And so the one of the reasons why I find this so fascinating is the time of day that this is at, most the flow of the traffic coming up against me or, you know, people coming home from work as well as kids coming home from school.

00:27:28:11 - 00:27:56:29
John Simmerman
And. Yeah, to your point is like, that's an important thing to, to, to account or to really embrace is that that ability to get some, you know, some low level physical activity before school and before work and then also after school and after work is really, really, I think, impactful. And one of the great things about what we know about physical activity, and again, it doesn't I want to emphasize it doesn't have to be hard.

00:27:56:29 - 00:28:31:23
John Simmerman
It doesn't have to be, you know, really, really exertion. It doesn't have to fit into the category of this is working out and really, really strenuous. Even lower levels, moderate levels of physical activity have tremendous benefits mentally, emotionally and physically. So it really, really important. And one of the other things that I always love emphasizing about the infrastructure, the built environment that allows people to get to meaningful destinations is that it truly is all ages and abilities.

00:28:31:23 - 00:29:08:23
John Simmerman
We just went past a person in a mobility device of motors, a mobility scooter or electric wheelchair. Incredibly important for people to have mobility options. And that's the key. You mentioned it earlier, is that this is really not a dialog. That is a war on cars. It's not anti-caa. It's about having mobility choice. Maybe on certain days you want to drive, maybe you like driving on occasion, but you have that ability to choose and you can choose if it's a beautiful day like it is on this video.

00:29:08:25 - 00:29:13:07
John Simmerman
Hey, this is a great way to get a little activity. And you mentioned some fresh air.

00:29:13:10 - 00:29:36:01
Pete Nouwen
Indeed. And, sometimes I, I go crazy on my on my racing bike. And I have such backpacking there. I have a backpacking, back behind my. I am behind my saddle, so I can I can also make it maybe two kilometers, I mean. Well, we should we should bike by, commute together from, certain moments to, to race.

00:29:36:04 - 00:29:45:15
Pete Nouwen
Maybe if you have the opportunity, and, then we should we should do to because, between housing and if that's not even the best part.

00:29:45:17 - 00:29:52:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. How many, how many kilometers is it? From Den Bosch to to Utrecht?

00:29:52:10 - 00:29:53:11
Pete Nouwen
52.

00:29:53:14 - 00:29:55:11
John Simmerman
Okay. That's very doable. Yeah.

00:29:55:13 - 00:30:19:10
Pete Nouwen
Yeah, yeah, that's for for me with, with my with my lung capacity, I have a VO2 max of about 42 dead. That's, that's, an average of 25 between 25 and 30km an hour. And, when I'm not having the wind against me, then it's two hours and 15 minutes. Yeah, yeah, I know some people. That's crazy, because, they didn't.

00:30:19:10 - 00:30:39:23
Pete Nouwen
Well, you know, 15 minutes is for for some people, already. Already crazy. Then it's gone. Then it's like, okay, it's, if it's more than a mile and I'm going by car. Well, okay, well, that's your choice. You you I'm getting it. I'm getting know my, my exercise, and, I'm not going to burn fuel because I love my wallet.

00:30:39:25 - 00:31:05:09
John Simmerman
Yeah, I want to go back to something that you had mentioned earlier is that sometimes employers are, are incentivizing and subsidizing the use of automobiles. And I think that there's like this assumption, especially for us in, in North America. And we think that, we look at these images of the Netherlands and think that it's an active mobility Shangri-La.

00:31:05:11 - 00:31:32:20
John Simmerman
But you you alluded to it earlier, is that some employers are feeling like, you know, hey, we have sunk costs here. And from an economic model, what a sunk cost is, is that we have already invested in these corporate company vehicles. We want you to use them and they, you know, will incentivize the use of them versus the use of, public transit and overflights and things of that nature.

00:31:32:23 - 00:31:43:19
John Simmerman
I know that irks you a little bit. Explain more about that tendency and and why companies should rethink that.

00:31:43:21 - 00:32:09:12
Pete Nouwen
Yeah. How am I how am I going to to to put that on, on, on a good start and the way, the narrative, and especially how things are being incentivized here for us, especially the from, from really pretty much like a policy perspective, you can do as you go. You can do a lot to, to encourage, active mobility and, reduce the wear and tear on roads.

00:32:09:12 - 00:32:40:04
Pete Nouwen
So you have to spend less on, on repair. But you. Yeah, well, you should do it. And you should do it properly. What's going on right now here is that, there's, there's there, mobility is is is is a bit of an afterthought, especially for, for businesses as well. And maybe in the world. Just as I said, you're leaving 10 to 30% of productivity on the table, productivity on the table.

00:32:40:07 - 00:33:19:18
Pete Nouwen
And, for which you can get for every employer, employee. And the tendency is to, to bill right now to follow the narrative of the equivalent, the Dutch equivalent of the of the IRS. But pretty much need to do some, some NLP. Because if you follow the narrative, then there's something like three boxes, there's, there's a, there's a box where you, where you get your own mode of transport and you get, you and your employer can, tax free cover your and cover your expenses, per kilometer.

00:33:19:20 - 00:33:48:17
Pete Nouwen
This sounds it, the second, the second box is that your employer can provide coverage of public transport and the other or is to provide your company, your employer, or your employee, with an, with a company car, which is by far the easiest, the easiest mode and the narrative right now, and especially because it has been implemented for so for so long, the, the path of least resistance is to just give them a card, a flexible.

00:33:48:20 - 00:34:08:25
Pete Nouwen
And then I think what? Most people don't even need a car. And the point is that as soon as you you as a as an employee, when you have a car, you again, we're going to get rid of your own car and there is there's a, there's a very sturdy wall in changing your mode of transport again because, well, you have that car.

00:34:08:25 - 00:34:44:13
Pete Nouwen
It's a nice car. Part of it is being paid by it. Paid for by your, your employer. It's very hard to to go back. Another bit of the narrative is that as soon as you are, you're, you're in one mode of transport. You're pretty much stuck other ways of of, of transportation. Then you're going to get, you're going to get back from your, from your employer, like, hey, I'm, I'm providing you with, with X, I'm not going to for I'm not going to to put you in Y.

00:34:44:15 - 00:35:27:27
Pete Nouwen
And, what I hear is that the incentive in, I don't know about the incentive in, in the United States, but this is the that's what's going on. That's what's going on here. And I think it's in Europe. Yeah, I think it's pretty much what's going on in Europe and and changing the narrative and changing the use of language, from, government point of view might be, and might be and, and some of the reason, some of the ways to, to change it because especially for, for, for commuting for, for a healthy society, then active commuting, then then just active commuting is, is, is, is pretty much like

00:35:27:27 - 00:35:55:17
Pete Nouwen
top tier or gold tier in, in a, in a Shangri la, everyone would bike and the roads would be empty. That is not the case. Last week was when we recorded, the there was one there was a record, a record level of of of traffic again and there was a dip during the, during the corona pandemic.

00:35:55:17 - 00:36:09:29
Pete Nouwen
But since then, traffic, the, people stuck in traffic are in the, the, the, the the amount of traffic is going up again. So Shangri la. No, that's not here. If you find it, please tell me.

00:36:10:01 - 00:36:42:01
John Simmerman
Yeah. I mean, there's I think one of the things that is always important to reinforce is that, we have situations where we might be incentivizing and subsidizing certain things. And so you talked a little bit about that. And I can verify that. Yes, in many cases here in North America, we do have employers who give, incentives to, you know, offset the cost of being able to drive one's vehicle.

00:36:42:03 - 00:37:19:16
John Simmerman
And, and there's many other incentives that, you know, subsidize the use of motor vehicles, but they don't do the same to subsidize and incentivize the use of public transit or active mobility. And I think that absolutely, that should be done at the at the national level, it seems like there should be some pressure that gets put, you know, from the national level on, local municipalities as well as employers to encourage people to have what we call in North America.

00:37:19:16 - 00:37:54:13
John Simmerman
And maybe you guys call this as well is TDM transportation demand management. And what that means is really trying to, level the playing field in terms of the incentives for all modes of traffic, transportation and, and trying to shift the number of single occupancy vehicles down, encourage people to either carpool or take public transit or active mobility modes, and employers can incentivize that.

00:37:54:15 - 00:38:24:08
John Simmerman
Municipalities, cities, in the United States, we have what's called chambers of commerce, chambers of commerce, or representing businesses in like a, a historic or downtown area of a city can kind of pull their resources together because we know that for every additional car that comes into the city, the quality of life goes down versus if we can have more people walking and biking, the quality of life actually goes up.

00:38:24:08 - 00:38:33:03
John Simmerman
And so and when I say quality of life, I also mean the effectiveness and vibrancy and vitality of businesses too.

00:38:33:05 - 00:38:59:10
Pete Nouwen
Yes. Because, at the end of the day, people don't that, most of people don't, don't, they're not going shopping. They don't, they don't drive into your businesses. Only if you were drive through and, and then the, the the amount of people that are driving through your business, per a per per square foot or per square meter, that's not very much.

00:38:59:13 - 00:39:27:01
Pete Nouwen
Personally, I think that that businesses don't really like to, to bother with, especially especially business leaders. They're not getting excited over working with, with with policy. But it's the same thing as, as the, regular people don't like to work on good habits. It's more like the, the, the the thrill seeking, the thrill seeking stuff. But good habits keep you healthy until you're 70.

00:39:27:07 - 00:39:54:02
Pete Nouwen
And, the same as with, with good policies. It keeps your company healthy. So as soon as you've done that right, then you can. Yeah. And then you can again, and then you can pretty much, at the end go back to, to work on great products again. And, but the thing is that, that most, what I found is that most companies and most businesses, they are just following the narrative and.

00:39:54:02 - 00:40:30:15
Pete Nouwen
Okay, don't bother with me. Don't don't don't make them work and then just read, big government policy and and implement it the way is being said and that way in the, in that way, because it's, it's, it's being followed, because that policy is being followed so blindly, then a local government or, provincial or a federal government, especially with, with tax incentives, can, can set the narrative in the way people and, and the way, the way companies implement their, their transportation policies.

00:40:30:18 - 00:40:58:12
Pete Nouwen
And then since you are not thinking and just following the narrative, then you are leaving a lot of a lot of money on the table, which is a shame, because personally, if I if I'm standing in front of a crowd and I'm asking, and I'm asking and especially, and a group of of employers, with the question, who likes to have more productive employees?

00:40:58:14 - 00:41:28:19
Pete Nouwen
Well, all hands are going up. That's easy. There's Hulu and, and, if I ask you to do it again for, who wants to have more productive employee, employees without raising, without, without paying them more? Yeah. Higher. And that's possible. Just you need to think about, you think a bit about the policies the the the, the stupid thing is, is that you especially need to think about transport policies.

00:41:28:21 - 00:42:05:01
Pete Nouwen
Some people can that there are employee employees that just need a car, sales representatives, they're going all over the place. So in order to do their work properly, they probably needed. But if someone is coming from place A, going to place B, where where your, where your company is, is positioned ideally, especially if they, if they are within a 20 mile radius or less, it is counterproductive to let's not commute by car.

00:42:05:04 - 00:42:05:25
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:05:28 - 00:42:07:27
Pete Nouwen
For sure. For your business.

00:42:07:29 - 00:42:52:05
John Simmerman
It's interesting too, because, you know, as this video is sort of rolling here and we're seeing that as we're making our way into the city of Utrecht, where we're seeing that there's this combination of, of shared space where we have motor vehicles and then fleets pods, where it's it's just, you know, active mobility, participating on the streets. And it's, it reminds me that, again, in your narrative that you're talking about here is this acknowledgment that the Netherlands just like every other country around the globe, especially post-World War Two, really embraced the automobile.

00:42:52:08 - 00:43:25:15
John Simmerman
And it's just been in the last five decades, six decades or so, where it's been like, wait a minute, we went too far in that direction. Beginning especially in the 1970s, a lot of cities, a lot of municipalities in across the country in the Netherlands started to say, oh, wait a minute, you know that, Martin, going modern, going modernity, trying to you think of the car as the, the way of the future.

00:43:25:17 - 00:43:47:29
John Simmerman
That necessarily wasn't the right path. There has to be a healthy balance. Cars are a tremendous technology and has great value for us. So it's not again, not an antique car thing, but we need to have a balance in terms of what I like to say is mobility choice. And this is a great image that we have on screen right now where we see plenty of people on bikes.

00:43:47:29 - 00:43:55:03
John Simmerman
We see the rail right there above us, and we just had several cars drive by. And so we have the.

00:43:55:09 - 00:44:11:13
Pete Nouwen
You know, fit, fit. They are they are really popular. Yesterday I was a bit late on, I was on my way to do this, and I came there after nine, and I said, just it's not going to happen. I don't have them anymore. After nine, they're gone.

00:44:11:15 - 00:44:37:25
John Simmerman
Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I tried, I, I that brings back a really fun story from this past, summer, I had a friend of mine who's coming in from, from Amsterdam, and she wanted to, to get an overpass there at Utrecht, at the central station. But she was coming in a little later, and while they were all gone and there was a huge line of people who were waiting to get another wave hits.

00:44:37:25 - 00:45:02:20
John Simmerman
And so I was like, we were like, okay, well, it's a new plan. We made a new plan. We jumped on the train and went to Halton without a bike and picked one up there, and we're able to do some things around the city there, the village there. But yeah, I mean, talk about, I think a really successful sort of integration of public transit and active transit.

00:45:02:23 - 00:45:46:07
John Simmerman
And you had mentioned earlier that if you go too far down in supporting one mode versus another mode, especially when it's the car, you might just continue just using the car the entire time. But what I love about that integration of public transit and bike share over feeds is that you can, you know, that last kilometer or 2km or 3km to get to your ultimate destination could easily be handled by that active mode of shifting and getting on the beautiful blue and yellow over fleets bike to finish your trip off.

00:45:46:09 - 00:46:05:10
Pete Nouwen
Well, in my case, it's it's always five five. And so, Yeah, just just just just, if you make a picture that if you as soon as you have to travel like five kilometers. Yeah. Then, then it takes, at a and then, and then at a normal speed, it takes about 15 minutes.

00:46:05:13 - 00:46:05:27
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:46:05:27 - 00:46:16:08
Pete Nouwen
Yeah. I don't know if it. Yeah I love you. Kind of. It was faster because you're cycling your legs off. The thing has no gear. Exactly.

00:46:16:10 - 00:46:17:29
John Simmerman

00:46:18:02 - 00:46:21:05
Pete Nouwen
That thing is made to survive. You.

00:46:21:07 - 00:46:22:08
John Simmerman
Yes, exactly.

00:46:22:08 - 00:46:23:11
Pete Nouwen
The other way around.

00:46:23:14 - 00:46:47:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. To close this. To close this out. Pete, what final points would you like to make sure that we leave the audience with? This has been fascinating. Thank you so much for for bringing this up. But if there's anything that we haven't already, you know, touched upon that you want to, make sure to emphasize, now's the time.

00:46:47:09 - 00:47:24:05
Pete Nouwen
Yeah. One of the things that I think is very, I think it's very important to, if you especially if you want to, to grab this opportunity and, and, and, and go for what I want as an employer. Then you should advocate with, you should advocate as well as, as, as residents do to, to, to get, to get about and to get a bike path on to your business park because especially, bike commuting, that's just an end to end.

00:47:24:08 - 00:47:46:08
Pete Nouwen
This is an end to end. Think what you mentioned is you had to change plans as soon as, as the only feed center as, of a feature ran out because that is a combination of bike, bike, public transport bike. That's where the goal is. People will. Will. Oh, no, I will hardly ever, drive to train station.

00:47:46:08 - 00:48:08:23
Pete Nouwen
Get on, get on a train and, and get a get a car again as soon as they are there. I hardly ever see it happening. But taking your bike. Go to the station, put it in, put it on a bike, and bike parking. And then at the other end, get out. Take out your bike and and bike for, like, well, five kilometers.

00:48:08:23 - 00:48:39:21
Pete Nouwen
That's 15 minutes. No. And, and, if you, if you're going seven kilometers, then you're, you're pedaling like, like 20 minutes because, at near the normal speed, you're going, you're going 2 minutes/km. That. No. Three. Sorry. That's too much. Now you're going three, 3 minutes/km. So there really is where you can where you can provide your, your people with, with their, with with with by train bike opportunity.

00:48:39:21 - 00:49:11:24
Pete Nouwen
That's quite big. Your problem is and the problem starts as soon as, as as, those bikes are getting too popular and they're running out. Then you also need to tram in front of your business because, walking five kilometers takes an hour. Not 20 minute, not 15 minutes. So we'll be pretty much stuck. So if you are, if you are a business, you're on, and you want to grab that opportunity, one of the things you can do is listen to your, your employees change your own policies.

00:49:11:26 - 00:49:26:06
Pete Nouwen
And you should also, get in touch with your neighbors to, to advocate with, municipality for, for bike and bike and, bike infrastructure as well as as public transport on your business park.

00:49:26:08 - 00:50:00:26
John Simmerman
Sometimes we are our own worst enemy as humans. Sometimes we, we head towards the easy way. And, in my keynote presentation, I often talk about the fact that as humans, we are capable of doing extraordinary things. You know, from a physical abilities perspective. We can we can run marathons. We can do all these things. We can ride a bike, you know, 60km and etc. but at the same time, we're hardwired as humans to have what I call a lazy gene to take the easy way.

00:50:00:28 - 00:50:27:29
John Simmerman
And so to to your point of like, listen to your employees. If your employees are saying, well, we want active mobility, we want the ability to to, to, you know, help us, you know, help accommodate us and being able to ride our bikes, you know, to to this, you know, corporate campus in this, this business park, etc.. But what if the employees, because they have that lazy gene are saying, no, what we really want is more car parking.

00:50:27:29 - 00:50:50:26
John Simmerman
We want you to subsidize us even more. It sounds like what you're saying is that the corporations should sort of stand up to the, you know, the inclination, the natural inclination of us humans to be lazy and to take the easy way and say, trust us, it's good for, you know, we're not going to provide more free parking.

00:50:50:26 - 00:50:54:03
John Simmerman
No, we're not going to subsidize taking the car.

00:50:54:05 - 00:51:18:14
Pete Nouwen
I know that that, the KPN company did that with, here within the Netherlands. We put a carrot in front of, in front of their employees, instead of the, instead of limiting, their, their kilometer compensation to the, the tax free maximum. What many employee employee, what many employers do is they, they raise, I think they raise it up to $0.40.

00:51:18:17 - 00:51:47:12
Pete Nouwen
That was a very, very, very big carrot for people to say, well, bloody hell no, I'm I'm going to bike that. That's where the money is. So you have to, you have to think about, okay, I want this. How am I'm going to incentivize my, my employees to, to to actually do it and the, the, the thing is, you have to make it the path of least resistance will always be people who are going to drive you.

00:51:47:13 - 00:52:28:04
Pete Nouwen
You're never going to, you're never going to incentivize everyone out of the car. Some people just love driving. And, they are going to to do it. But just as Jason said, I'm, I'm I am not a cyclist. Just but I bike to work because I know it's good for me. So go and have a good dinner again because I love eating and, and the, the other thing is that that you have to, to incentivize people to you have to you have to give people, a goal and a target and, and to, to, to incentivize people to change their habits.

00:52:28:07 - 00:52:44:24
Pete Nouwen
I do not want to go back because I know I would get very quickly fat, grumpy, and and I will get, I will use my memory.

00:52:44:26 - 00:53:10:25
Pete Nouwen
And then again, I, you know. Yeah. The the other thing is that I have my, my, my father as a, as an example. He's, he's a seven. He's, he's, he's over 70 right now. He said he turned 72 this year. And for his 70th birthday. Birthday? We, we went to, into which to, to, a, I don't know, I don't know how to call it.

00:53:10:26 - 00:53:36:09
Pete Nouwen
It's pretty much like a a preset tree climbing park, and I don't know how, I don't know, I had to call it is they call it everything, but. And every time I see it indicates the preset tree claim park. And, it was pretty much like the oldest guy in, in the in the whole park. And he was up there with his grand grandkids, grandpa and grandkids there.

00:53:36:11 - 00:53:39:16
Pete Nouwen
And what did you do? Right. To work every day?

00:53:39:19 - 00:54:01:29
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a really compelling thing for us to end with here. Is that what we're really talking about here is that this is this is good for business. This is good for the city. This is good for the municipalities. It's good for the government as a whole, the at the national level. But more importantly, it's also good for us personally.

00:54:02:02 - 00:54:04:24
Pete Nouwen
Yes. It's especially good personally.

00:54:04:26 - 00:54:38:27
John Simmerman
Exactly. And and the longevity and being able to interact with your grandchildren and maybe even if you're lucky enough, your great grandchildren and have vibrancy and vitality, and being able to do things, fun things with them, for, you know, these, these future generations, really, really important. The other thing that I'll end with, in my final observation, it reminded me, as we were looking at some of the video that was flowing, from Halton to, to, to, to Utrecht.

00:54:38:27 - 00:55:15:01
John Simmerman
There was, the amount of embrace that you got from the greenery and the green sort of thing. So we've talked a lot about the, the, the physical benefits, you know, and the health of wellbeing and all of that. But we also talked about the changes that physical activity has at the brain level. But I'm reminded that having that opportunity to get out on the bike and be able to get from one location to another, and also have that opportunity to be sort of embraced by greenery and the green aspect of it is really good for mental health, and it helps with reinforce.

00:55:15:01 - 00:55:24:14
John Simmerman
What we had talked about earlier is you just feel better when you're arriving at your destination, whether that's your destination is at work or school or home.

00:55:24:17 - 00:55:54:20
Pete Nouwen
Yeah. And also if you do that, if you're talking about mental health, one of the things that that, that, that especially, you know, that that being active or or or transport or, the taking active transport is it reduces your, your anxiety mainly because it being active just releases a happy hormone. So I don't see a lot of road rage, on, on bike paths.

00:55:54:22 - 00:56:24:03
John Simmerman
Right? Yes. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And and we've, we've brought this up a couple of times here on the Active Towns channel with several other, Dutch guests that have been, on the channel where we've also reinforced that when we're out there, you know, in real life, you know, IRL, in real life, you know, having like, little interactions, human to human interactions on bikes and walking.

00:56:24:06 - 00:57:00:08
John Simmerman
It's like you're you have a different relationship, a different interaction than when we're in our hermetically sealed mental boxes on wheels. And it's it's a subtle little thing. It's everything from, you know, body language and eye contact and little, little signals and signs and it it really we're seeing the, the sociability of having that sort of human interaction is a low level sort of relationship that you have with those around you.

00:57:00:10 - 00:57:23:06
John Simmerman
And one of the things that I find particularly delightful about trying to get around from location to location in the Netherlands is that, for the most part, it's a much more relaxed environment than other locations. You know, I'll give you an example, and I guess this will be my final point. This.

00:57:23:08 - 00:57:52:14
John Simmerman
Is that when I compare what it's like, especially when I, I make these trips side by side, whether or be in the Netherlands and then go to Paris, or I'll be in Paris and and go to a place in the Netherlands or, or London or other places, is that it's a much more relaxed environment. Getting from place to place is typically a, on a relaxed, upright bike, you don't feel like you're in a racing situation.

00:57:52:14 - 00:58:08:24
John Simmerman
You had mentioned you racing bike. I have racing bikes as well and it's a bit much different thing when you're on like a relaxed, upright Dutch style bike or an overheats than when you're on your racing bike. And what I've noticed.

00:58:08:27 - 00:58:13:10
Pete Nouwen
You know, that I am going to commute on my racing bike if I'm going to drive, because it is.

00:58:13:17 - 00:58:14:14
John Simmerman
For sure for.

00:58:14:14 - 00:58:15:18
Pete Nouwen
For sure faster.

00:58:15:20 - 00:58:50:15
John Simmerman
Oh no no no I it's and then and that's a that's a good point to to clarify is the distances or there's a different tool an appropriate tool for different things. So when you're going the shorter distances of, you know, like five kilometers or less, it's like, oh, and that's one of the things that I notice about the culture and how it feels to get around to meaningful destinations in some of these other cities is you feel like everybody is racing, it's like they're in, and it's a much different sort of feel.

00:58:50:15 - 00:59:11:26
John Simmerman
And because it's a much different sort of feel, it's not as relaxed and you don't feel like you've you've got that. It's sort of like what we just saw on the images of, of riding from, from Halton to, to Utrecht. It's, it's a very relaxed sort of, chill. I'll use the word chill environment versus an aggressive environment.

00:59:11:26 - 00:59:12:23
John Simmerman
Yeah.

00:59:12:26 - 00:59:39:04
Pete Nouwen
Yeah, they are. Do I have to I have to say that as soon as I, as soon as I'm entering, a city like, like Gutenberg or or Malta or, or you trip itself, then I find, I find it, I'm slowing down, and I'm so grateful to everyone around me because, the racers have, have a better name.

00:59:39:07 - 00:59:59:07
Pete Nouwen
And, that is there, and that's where they have the problem. So just step, you know, you're on a racing bike, but you're also commuting. So step down from from from doing doing the racer and go to, doing you as soon as you're back you can road just step on it and go for it. Right.

00:59:59:12 - 00:59:59:19
Pete Nouwen
Yeah.

00:59:59:23 - 01:00:02:17
John Simmerman
Yeah. There's no fly by.

01:00:02:20 - 01:00:36:04
Pete Nouwen
Yes. And, and one of the, one of the, one of the, one of the routes that I take is I'm, is I am, when I'm driving to, to work is, that I am, I'm driving alongside, I'm on my ankle, which is, which is, which we didn't see what is lovely and, the the the, it's it's the, the the sunrise there is, is magical over the water and, well, you can, you can, you can, you can race pictures.

01:00:36:07 - 01:00:37:05
John Simmerman
Great. Yeah.

01:00:37:11 - 01:00:38:23
Pete Nouwen
It's,

01:00:38:25 - 01:00:49:02
John Simmerman
It it makes it fun. It's it gamify a little bit of that, that that experience. Well, Pete, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.

01:00:49:05 - 01:00:50:29
Pete Nouwen
Yeah, thank you very much.

01:00:51:01 - 01:01:05:12
John Simmerman
Hey, thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Pete. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribed to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.

01:01:05:17 - 01:01:24:15
John Simmerman
And again, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Tones channel, please consider supporting my efforts financially by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Super easy to do. Just click on the join button right down below, or navigate over to Active Towns. Georgie. Click on the support tab at the top of the page, and there's several different options, including becoming a Patreon supporter.

01:01:24:16 - 01:01:43:19
John Simmerman
Patrons do get early and have free access to all my content as well as you can make a donation to the nonprofit. You can leave me a tip on buy me a coffee. There's several others. Anyways, thank you all so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness.

01:01:43:26 - 01:02:01:13
John Simmerman
Cheers! And again, just want to send a huge thank you to all my active towns Ambassadors supporting the channel financially via YouTube memberships YouTube super thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and joining my Patreon every little bit adds up and is very much appreciated. Thank you all so much!